FM2011 Demo - Same Problems Year After Year

Initial impressions are that this is one of the worst FMs ever released. What gets me is that we get the same problems each year and SI never seems to learn (or care?). For instance:

- New features are poorly designed and tested, resulting in a significant detrimental impact on enjoyment and playability. This year we have the utterly dreadful Player Interaction feature, which can destroy the entire squad in about 5 mins (see my other post on this for more details).

- Poor match engine, riddled with issues. My experience so far has seen countless players from my team mising open goals in the 6 yard box, far too many sendings off and the AI constantly getting much better results than they deserve, largely through persistently scoring straight after I score or in the last seconds of a game, despite them playing very badly for the rest of the match.

Hopefully, it will grow on me but this is the 1st time I have ever considered not buying the game on its release.

thats why its called a demo!

thats why its called a demo!

What? No.

A demo is supposed to make you want to buy the game, not show off all the major new problems introduced in a game.

That's not my opinion on FM11 (i've only played the demo for about 5 minutes), but I just thought I should point out that a demo is a marketing tool, not a tool for a game developer to beta test software.

Last year many people said the game was unplayable however by 10.2 most of the serious problems were corrected and 10.3 was pretty enjoyable (even withstanding the media module)

yeah it should be a marketing tool but im sure si only release a demo so that all the moaners can get there points across about bugs

Gunnermitch, respect your opinion but have to agree with Wakers on this one. Maybe we have all got a bit used to SI using the Demo as a beta test, rather than its primary function, which is to sell the game to prospective buyers.

The point I was trying to make is that the game is often poor both at demo and initial official release. I don't think this is acceptable, when the same sort of problems keep on appearing year after year. Both the examples I have highlighted uttery spoil the game IMO. This does not mean I will give up straight away but if I can't find a way round them, there is no point in me buying the game and I will stick to Fm10, the 10.3 version of which is possibly the best ever. I have bought every version since

CM2, so even considering not buying the game on release has been unthinkable until today.

I hope you both have better experiences with the demo.

The demo is not a beta test, since it's the 'gold' and thus, completely finished for retail, version. The demo just gives SI a two week advantage to start fixing bugs.

The demo is taken from the code that will be in the final version. Therefore, any problems that's in the demo will be in the released game. It's not a case of "it's a demo, therefore it'll be rubbish and the full game will be great". If there's something in the demo that makes you angry, and you pay money for the full game, it'll still be there until around Christmas at least.

What narks me off is that, year after year, the community cries out to SI to hold back on the half-baked features for the next release and instead improve upon the previous release, and fix the bugs found after the final patch. Once that's done, then think about introducing new things. But they don't listen, and instead repeat the same behaviour every year. Problems that have been complained about after 10.3 haven't been fixed from what I've seen in the demo, and instead things have gone backwards, including the match engine. All for the sake of having dumbed-down, repetitive, mini-game conversations with player's and their agents. No thanks.

Unfortunately, as I've said in previous years is that SI take advantage of the gap between release date and Christmas to use the community as testers - they said themselves last year they couldn't get enough testers as applicants complained the pay was too low.

It's also the first time for me in 10 years that I'm not going to buy it, and probably won't be buying any future versions either because it's just the same thing every year. Everything's gone backwards and they're relying on us to make something we - by release date - paid money for, better. Of course, this is the free demo, but the point is we're a pretty loyal fanbase, some of whom put in pre-orders as soon as the release date's announced, hoping that this time SI will have listened and things will be better, and I feel like SI are taking advantage somewhat.

We shouldn't be used as guinea pigs to help them make money. I've Beta tested in the past, but if I were to do it again, I'd expect some sort of payment due to the amount of effort I've put into helping SI fix things - hours and hours isn't an exaggeration, and all so that I can get my paid product to work properly. The "payment" shouldn't be "there, your game's fixed" - I've just paid money for it AND spent hours finding bugs to make it playable, and you're treating it like I've got it all for free. It's insulting, really.

[/rant]

Spot on Suzie!

This time I have promised myself I will not buy the game until the testers (members of this forum) have thoroughly tested the game, and SI have tweaked it to what it should be. Say about February??

This problem is not just an SI problem, all games makers seem to do it. I hate the mindset that says "Well at least the game maker sorts it out post-release with patches".

The only way to stop it, is for nobody to buy the game on release day (which will never happen) and wait for it to be ironed out. But as the army of loyal fans that do buy on release day are the testers, it is a double-edged sword.

You will get the usual excitement awaiting release. You will get the usual "I am going back to FM10" on release day. You will get the game with all what you would expect it to be on a date TBC.

Maybe a 'new' FM once every 12 months is ambitious, because the new features are rarely 'groundbreakers'. But it keeps the money men happy. End of.

For the first time in 15 years I don't think i'll be buying it either. The game just seems really infantile to me compared to the old days when it was all stats and imagination. I hate the player interaction, speech bubbles, players hating you just for following your assistants advice to ask him to ''come deep'' or something, the seemingly random player tutoring, players disappearing completely from the pitch in the 3d etc; it's grown in one way, me the other. It's been coming tbh and it's probably a good thing.

Have to agree with you here, Suzie

I respect your opinions, guys. For me, however, FM 11 looks and feels pretty good.

On the other hand, it sounds like some of you guys need to take a chill pill and step back a little bit.

For the first time in 15 years I don't think i'll be buying it either. The game just seems really infantile to me compared to the old days when it was all stats and imagination. I hate the player interaction, speech bubbles, players hating you just for following your assistants advice to ask him to ''come deep'' or something, the seemingly random player tutoring, players disappearing completely from the pitch in the 3d etc; it's grown in one way, me the other. It's been coming tbh and it's probably a good thing.

You hate "players hating you just for following your assistants advice to ask him to "come deep" or something"? That sounds awfully ironic. I dislike you for disliking this feature too then.

To put it this way... You hate players hating you, because they don't like your advice. That sounds pretty damn realistic to me. I don't know where you've been living, but there are definitely people out there (and I am sure players in the football association world) who don't take advice kindly.

Sounds like some of you guys have never faced a setback before.

I got rocketed over 100 times with Chinese 107mm rockets in 180 nights. That was a huge setback to my sleep pattern, does that count Rubber Duck??

My parents died before I reached 20.

I was divorced before 23.

My next girlfriend got the clap. From me.

And I never got my letters to Jim'll Fix It fixed.

Setbacks?? I've had a few.

Just wait on buying the game post patches?? That's not a setback.

I respect your opinions, guys. For me, however, FM 11 looks and feels pretty good.

On the other hand, it sounds like some of you guys need to take a chill pill and step back a little bit.

You hate "players hating you just for following your assistants advice to ask him to "come deep" or something"? That sounds awfully ironic. I dislike you for disliking this feature too then.

To put it this way... You hate players hating you, because they don't like your advice. That sounds pretty damn realistic to me. I don't know where you've been living, but there are definitely people out there (and I am sure players in the football association world) who don't take advice kindly.

Sounds like some of you guys have never faced a setback before.

Faced a lot of setbacks. But i've never experienced it like this, when the only thing that works for me to resolve players is to give them a leave of absence.

Surely there are a number of other ways to resolve a lot of the issues the players have.

I got rocketed over 100 times with Chinese 107mm rockets in 180 nights. That was a huge setback to my sleep pattern, does that count Rubber Duck??

My parents died before I reached 20.

I was divorced before 23.

My next girlfriend got the clap. From me.

And I never got my letters to Jim'll Fix It fixed.

Setbacks?? I've had a few.

Just wait on buying the game post patches?? That's not a setback.

Good for you, then you are clearly not who I am talking about.

But there are some people in this forum who make playing FM 11's demo sound excruciating.

Are you guys f-ing kidding me? It's a game, if you don't like it you can offer an opinion, but please don't make it sound like you're a victim. You haven't even paid a single dollar for the game yet. All this WAH! WAH! SI doesn't care about me! bawwing is pretty ridiculous.

Hey - at least the demo doesn't have a ridiculous amount of injuries this year. Maybe that's what the release day patch is for

Hey - at least the demo doesn't have a ridiculous amount of injuries this year. Maybe that's what the release day patch is for

What ridiculuous amount of injury Wakers? It's well known, by anyone who is open to listening, that the injuries in FM generally are less frequent and less severe than in real life. SI have been trying for the last few years to increase the injuries to bring them in line with real life. But then I don't expect anything different from you, ever since I've joined I've seen nothing but moaning and complaining any time you've posted.

What ridiculuous amount of injury Wakers? It's well known, by anyone who is open to listening, that the injuries in FM generally are less frequent and less severe than in real life. SI have been trying for the last few years to increase the injuries to bring them in line with real life. But then I don't expect anything different from you, ever since I've joined I've seen nothing but moaning and complaining any time you've posted.

Then you don't pay close enough attention.

You also have poor recall if you don't remember the disastrous version of FM that had every team suffering from an injury crisis (it was so bad that SI had to announce it was fixed in the release day patch)

In fact, your post is wholly unwarranted, as I haven't even played the demo long enough to form an opinion on it yet, nor have I posted an opinion anywhere.

Dont let this thread get personal please guys.

Conversations can be frustrating at times (especially the PPMs), but you just need to learn not to say anything that will annoy a player (for example, how would you react if you were asked to take a pay cut?).

I genuinely don't see any of the problems with the ME people are complaining about, IMO this is the best ME for a long time.

Conversations can be frustrating at times (especially the PPMs), but you just need to learn not to say anything that will annoy a player (for example, how would you react if you were asked to take a pay cut?).

I genuinely don't see any of the problems with the ME people are complaining about, IMO this is the best ME for a long time.

So basically, after my own experience of course, i shouldn't say anything at all, ever. Because it seems like players will get mad about anything i say.

Apart from the PPMs, actually. I have no problem with them. Forgot about that.

When i see the choices we have to respond with, all of them really sound negative to me.

And for the paycut......that would really depend on the situation

I've used the player conversation thing alot and still I havent noticed a single player becoming unhappy.. :/

Brilliant post by Suzie, well said and I hope SI read it.

So basically, after my own experience of course, i shouldn't say anything at all, ever. Because it seems like players will get mad about anything i say.

Apart from the PPMs, actually. I have no problem with them. Forgot about that.

When i see the choices we have to respond with, all of them really sound negative to me.

I have had occasions where players have walked away happy- tutoring, the occasional PPM, player recommendations, and if he comes to me with an issue. Randomly transfer listing, asking him to take a pay cut or moving him to the reserves are always going to annoy a player, it's a fact of life.

I have had occasions where players have walked away happy- tutoring, the occasional PPM, player recommendations, and if he comes to me with an issue. Randomly transfer listing, asking him to take a pay cut or moving him to the reserves are always going to annoy a player, it's a fact of life.

Good thing that it does work then. I still feel like there are some "other" options missing there, when talking with a player.

Can't really say that i would use any of those options myself, in a real life situation.

Then again, i've just been playing through the demo, very quickly. Next round with it, i'm going to be exploring a bit more, of what's there and how it really works.

I might find that everything is alright in the end, afterall. I really hope so

About the last point.....it's probably fact of life for a lot of people. But it also depends on how you get the message through.

Some won't be happy about anything. Others can be a bit too relaxed about stuff, and not care so much.

Not really disagreeing with you, just trying to expand on the topic a bit

Instead of venting out your frustration, how about you make a thread and point out everything you think is "wrong" with the game ?

It doesn't have to be very detailed, but if they'll be away of an issue or two you've done your job as a player.

Ranting about a game is just silly.

Edit:

And I don't mean making a thread such as this, try harder

Who was your post meant for, vrisk85?

Was about to answer it, but not sure if it was me, OP or someone else you were talking about

Having played for a couple more hours, I would just like to qualify some parts of my initial opinion at the start of this thread. I still think player interaction is rubbish but I am finding ways round it e.g. just had a player go mental over something trivial (and true) and managed to turn it around a few days later via another chat - still find it repetitive, annoying, unrealistic and boring though. Also, I was maybe premature in my judgement on the ME, I am finding I like it more and more as I play it but I don't really think it is much of an improvement on FM10.3 and there a few weird bits e.g. goalkeeper rushing out and players missing unmarked from 2 yards.

Still stand by the general principles behind the post, though, which Suzie kindly presented in a much better way. I also remain on the fence about whether to buy it.

Who was your post meant for, vrisk85?

Was about to answer it, but not sure if it was me, OP or someone else you were talking about

It was meant for the OP, sorry.

Ah ok

Sorry about that

Initial impressions are that this is one of the worst FMs ever released. What gets me is that we get the same problems each year and SI never seems to learn (or care?). For instance:

- New features are poorly designed and tested, resulting in a significant detrimental impact on enjoyment and playability. This year we have the utterly dreadful Player Interaction feature, which can destroy the entire squad in about 5 mins (see my other post on this for more details).

- Poor match engine, riddled with issues. My experience so far has seen countless players from my team mising open goals in the 6 yard box, far too many sendings off and the AI constantly getting much better results than they deserve, largely through persistently scoring straight after I score or in the last seconds of a game, despite them playing very badly for the rest of the match.

Hopefully, it will grow on me but this is the 1st time I have ever considered not buying the game on its release.

with the 1st issue, you just got to pick the right reply, if you don't then aslong as you win games just reject anytime the player in questions wants to be put on the transfer list.

You will find some players will get angry with you but others will apoligise, that is if you do a certain reply to all players who want to have a chat with you

Now with your 2nd issue, aybe you need to look at team or player intsructions more closely and just tweak them a bit until you are satisfied with the results of said tweaking.

What? No.

A demo is supposed to make you want to buy the game, not show off all the major new problems introduced in a game.

That's not my opinion on FM11 (i've only played the demo for about 5 minutes), but I just thought I should point out that a demo is a marketing tool, not a tool for a game developer to beta test software.

Slightly wrong there sir, whilst yes, it is used to entice more people to buy the full version of the game, it is also used to find anymore bugs in the game so these bugs can also be fixed with the release day patch and patch 11.2

Once bugs are fixed from the testing before demo release, these bug fixes could indeed create new bugs not picked up buy anyone. UNFORTUNATELY

Slightly wrong there sir, whilst yes, it is used to entice more people to buy the full version of the game, it is also used to find anymore bugs in the game so these bugs can also be fixed with the release day patch and patch 11.2

Sorry but I disagree with you. A demo is supposed to attract the people to buy the game, that's why it's free for all. People don't download the demo to find bugs. At least I don't, but unfortunately I have found a couple of them so far.

The fact is, the last FMs have been loaded with problems that are not corrected until a first patch is released, usually around December. Which means, like Suzie said, that some problems with the game aren't being fixed during the construction of the new game, and only after the new game is released. Well, this isn't cool at all.

I believe that the guys at SI work hard to make a better game every year, but I think that in the last couple of years they tried to shadow the problems they couldn't fix by hyping some amazing new features, which now that we see in the demo, aren't that special.

I'm with Suzie!

The demo is taken from the code that will be in the final version. Therefore, any problems that's in the demo will be in the released game. It's not a case of "it's a demo, therefore it'll be rubbish and the full game will be great". If there's something in the demo that makes you angry, and you pay money for the full game, it'll still be there until around Christmas at least.

What narks me off is that, year after year, the community cries out to SI to hold back on the half-baked features for the next release and instead improve upon the previous release, and fix the bugs found after the final patch. Once that's done, then think about introducing new things. But they don't listen, and instead repeat the same behaviour every year. Problems that have been complained about after 10.3 haven't been fixed from what I've seen in the demo, and instead things have gone backwards, including the match engine. All for the sake of having dumbed-down, repetitive, mini-game conversations with player's and their agents. No thanks.

Unfortunately, as I've said in previous years is that SI take advantage of the gap between release date and Christmas to use the community as testers - they said themselves last year they couldn't get enough testers as applicants complained the pay was too low.

It's also the first time for me in 10 years that I'm not going to buy it, and probably won't be buying any future versions either because it's just the same thing every year. Everything's gone backwards and they're relying on us to make something we - by release date - paid money for, better. Of course, this is the free demo, but the point is we're a pretty loyal fanbase, some of whom put in pre-orders as soon as the release date's announced, hoping that this time SI will have listened and things will be better, and I feel like SI are taking advantage somewhat.

We shouldn't be used as guinea pigs to help them make money. I've Beta tested in the past, but if I were to do it again, I'd expect some sort of payment due to the amount of effort I've put into helping SI fix things - hours and hours isn't an exaggeration, and all so that I can get my paid product to work properly. The "payment" shouldn't be "there, your game's fixed" - I've just paid money for it AND spent hours finding bugs to make it playable, and you're treating it like I've got it all for free. It's insulting, really.

[/rant]

The thing I find really really funny is that with 1 angry person over the demo there will be 5+ people who enjoy it and NO it hasn't gone back in playability and progression looks good for the Franchise, why hold back on new features ? you might aswell just relase a 4th and possibly 5th patch then. A few people in these forums sound like they hate change, they hate new things, well I don't think anyone can stop that from happening and if you don't like the new things well unfortunately it is just too bad.

And no doubt the threats of you few people not buying it now, will fade away on game day release and you will go down to the shop and buy it, yes, long before Christmas

Gunnermitch, respect your opinion but have to agree with Wakers on this one. Maybe we have all got a bit used to SI using the Demo as a beta test, rather than its primary function, which is to sell the game to prospective buyers.

The point I was trying to make is that the game is often poor both at demo and initial official release. I don't think this is acceptable, when the same sort of problems keep on appearing year after year. Both the examples I have highlighted uttery spoil the game IMO. This does not mean I will give up straight away but if I can't find a way round them, there is no point in me buying the game and I will stick to Fm10, the 10.3 version of which is possibly the best ever. I have bought every version since

CM2, so even considering not buying the game on release has been unthinkable until today.

I hope you both have better experiences with the demo.

I must be just either lucky, or enjoy playing the game, dont bother with the 3d match etc and just set training, set pieces , tactics and ley the game play ! I have completed the Demo - with nothing that has jumped out as a bug to me !! As I say, dont watch the games, so I must miss out on all these"bugs". If you dont want to buy it, dont. Personal choice.

I wasnt going to, have played the Demo , and now I will. :-)

Initial impressions are that this is one of the worst FMs ever released. What gets me is that we get the same problems each year and SI never seems to learn (or care?). For instance:

- New features are poorly designed and tested, resulting in a significant detrimental impact on enjoyment and playability. This year we have the utterly dreadful Player Interaction feature, which can destroy the entire squad in about 5 mins (see my other post on this for more details).

- Poor match engine, riddled with issues. My experience so far has seen countless players from my team mising open goals in the 6 yard box, far too many sendings off and the AI constantly getting much better results than they deserve, largely through persistently scoring straight after I score or in the last seconds of a game, despite them playing very badly for the rest of the match.

Hopefully, it will grow on me but this is the 1st time I have ever considered not buying the game on its release.

Could it be that you are just not very good at the game? I have had 1 player sent off in around 20 matches, in which I won 18 of them and conceeded only 5 goals. I scored many a tap in and break away goals.

As for the player interaction button, it is not perfect and until we truly get used to how it works then we will upet more players than please them.

However since I first used the feature I must admit I thought it was a giant step in the right direction and offered great hope and expectation for the future of that element of the game. For example, I got my training report that month and one of my defenders got slated for a poor effort. You can now tell him to buck up his ideas if he wants a first team place. That is a amazing jump in player management to what we have been used to.

I also had a barney in one of my games with Tevez because I took the captainacy away from him. I did it as he barely speaks english, yet there wasnt an option to tell him that, obviously. This side of the game is never going to be perfect until we can type something and the game recognises what we mean. The advances SI have made this year are nothing short of ground breaking in this area, and I for once am genuinely excited about FM for the first time in years.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4872/screenshot20101023at192.png

Taken from another thread, and another guy. That's player interaction for you

Ive not downloaded the demo but there seems to be a lot of people moaning about it. I always enjoy the game every year and i never downloaded the patches i play it in its original form yes theres a few bugs but i dont care i still love the game and im looking forward to working with difficult players that fall out with you over small things, it will be a challenge player in real life are prima donnas so will be challenge to win them over. What else are you gonna play FM is by far the best management game out there its going to have problems its not going to be perfect no game is so just enjoy it and stop nit picking

Slightly wrong there sir, whilst yes, it is used to entice more people to buy the full version of the game, it is also used to find anymore bugs in the game so these bugs can also be fixed with the release day patch and patch 11.2

Once bugs are fixed from the testing before demo release, these bug fixes could indeed create new bugs not picked up buy anyone. UNFORTUNATELY

Wrong. The release day patch was already made before the demo was released.

For the first time in 15 years I don't think i'll be buying it either. The game just seems really infantile to me compared to the old days when it was all stats and imagination. I hate the player interaction, speech bubbles, players hating you just for following your assistants advice to ask him to ''come deep'' or something, the seemingly random player tutoring, players disappearing completely from the pitch in the 3d etc; it's grown in one way, me the other. It's been coming tbh and it's probably a good thing.

Hit the nail on the head there. I've been feeling more and more like this lately.

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4872/screenshot20101023at192.png

Taken from another thread, and another guy. That's player interaction for you

Lmao. Brilliant. Thats the emotional french for you

Everyone needs to realise that as computers and game design moves on they have to as well. They can't stay with the same thing all the time, it will eventually change. And another thing, what is so wrong about the demo?

The Match Engine: Players miss chances yes but so does drogba........It is not always going to go in. Basically everyone will be asking for every shot to go in. Yep thats realistic!

Player interaction feature: This is a new feature which I don't see any problems with.

Anybody that complains about the game, is someone who hasn't won many games and feel that they should win everything.

But unfortunately, even if it's not the intention ( of course it's not), there always are half-baked features that makes it through.

It's not about what you want it to be, it's about how it actually is. Which is, sometimes, something completely different.

Like the set-piece creator. It's not really a new feature. It's a graphical overview of the same system that's been there before.

-EDIT-

Should probably clarify the 2nd line there.

Of course it is about what you want it to be. But the actual result is very often far away from it.

The thing I find really really funny is that with 1 angry person over the demo there will be 5+ people who enjoy it and NO it hasn't gone back in playability and progression looks good for the Franchise, why hold back on new features ? you might aswell just relase a 4th and possibly 5th patch then. A few people in these forums sound like they hate change, they hate new things, well I don't think anyone can stop that from happening and if you don't like the new things well unfortunately it is just too bad.

And no doubt the threats of you few people not buying it now, will fade away on game day release and you will go down to the shop and buy it, yes, long before Christmas

I for one do no hate change in fact I think that if implemented correctly change can benefit us all, but that seems to be my gripe this year, is that the changes have not been implemented well, the poor conversation piece just feels bland and unintersting. The match engine is buggy and looks like it has been produced by Indie developers. Some of the screens now appear more cluttered than before with very little thought to item placement. These are the main problems I have with the game, however there are others.

I know SI will not please everyone and I have owned every copy since the very first title, but I feel that as every year goes on the games seem more problematic and the game becomes less enjoyable with having to save more regularly incase the game crashes to the desktop.

I will not be going to the shop on release day this year as I will now wait to see what happens with FM2012.

Everyone needs to realise that as computers and game design moves on they have to as well. They can't stay with the same thing all the time, it will eventually change. And another thing, what is so wrong about the demo?

The Match Engine: Players miss chances yes but so does drogba........It is not always going to go in. Basically everyone will be asking for every shot to go in. Yep thats realistic!

Player interaction feature: This is a new feature which I don't see any problems with.

Anybody that complains about the game, is someone who hasn't won many games and feel that they should win everything.

What a childish last line to type, congratulations you love the demo and you are entitled to, just as everyone else on this forum is entitled to their opinion.

That's the thing, I don't mind people having an opinion on the game and not liking certain things - that's totally fair enough as everyone is entitled to their opinion. What I don't like is people accusing SI of thinking solely about 'must get more features in' and 'we'll release the game in an awful state because we can always patch it later' - those things are actually quite offensive against SI. The amount of hours and effort that go into Football Manager, from what is a relatively small team really needs to be seen to be believed. We'd never purposely go out to make an inferior product. Some people have been impressed by the progress the game has made with conversations, some don't like it at all. If people don't want to play the game we don't force them to - we just hope those who do choose to buy and play our game enjoy it.

This is something that puzzles me to be honest. Surely this game makes you guys quite a bit of money, can't you afford to just hire more staff?