Match preparation question

I can see tat I canselect three different tactics and have the choice of some form of training (team blend, def positioning etc). How does this fit in with training? For example if I want my team to play very tight and defensive I can choose defensive positioning option, but do I need to do this before every game or will my last choice persist? Will I see a level of training improvement? I'm not sure how I can measure it's progress and effectiveness.

Any ideas?

These options will affect player performance in each individual match, they won't help train attributes per se. The affects aren't cumulative though, so it's just for that one individual game. If you desire to have improved defensive positioning in each game, then by all means leave that option selected.

But for what i understand, the objective is to have the various items (team blend, def positioning, etc) at the highest range. So for example, in the first weeks i leave the training always in "the blend"... at that item goes up until the max. After that i change to "def positioning" (for exemple)... and "def positioning will start to go up.

But, with that, will "team blend" start to decrease even if i continue to play with the same tactic?

In a logic point of view, i believe not, so that in time, all the item in one particular tactic would be in top level. For example, i'm playing with tactic "whatever the name is" and after some weeks (let's say mid season or sooner) all the item in match preparation will be in top level, and so the team will play the best in this tactic (of course if the tactic is rubish the team will play bad anyway LOL).

Please confirm if i'm thinking right!

Thks

If we set a special focus would that mean that the tactics will be slower to "fill their bars" as it were then setting no focus?

Yes, if you set a special focus, it will mean a little bit less time is spent on learning the tactics themselves. With no special focus set, the players will learn the tactics a bit faster.

Hello, Riz Remes

You means learn attributes in this case, like a regular training. And at least in echo of matchs activities could provid.

If not ... it's means specific IA who learn something like specific pathfinding, which players, they recognized beetween them , when, how long ... Theres a memory IA about tactic design ? A bonus about consistence attrition ? You must to give us precision about that !

Or you just turn around the individual experience rating on position by the time ?

the players will learn the tactics a bit faster. means formation position strictly or something else ... You must be clear and complete. Because with this kind of assertion by SI Games, your sowing the seed of deseperation on the frenchs forums which are full of "don't touch nothing ! with time your team learn your tactic" ... like a good wine ...

It becomes difficult to explain match exercice, jadeness, natural fitness and performances after that black window. So please give us total light about"learn tactic" or use another formulation.

Regards

Teutomatos Rules ok

PS: we pray about an update from Marc Vaughan Hints and tips, theres long times since 2007. ( Screamin from Vaughan's fanatics )

The faith keeps on burning.

From what I understand, and observation so far, it works pretty well. Some scenarios, playing as Man City:

Pre-Season, I sign 6 new "big" players plus a ton of youth talent, shipped out a lot of dead wood on loan or sold for a pittance. I made sure "team blend" was selected.

Start of the season, I was struggling to score, and lost against bigger and same-size teams (Villa, Arsenal and Liverpool) by small margins, and drew 0-0 against Stoke. Not a great start.

So, against teams like West Brom, Blackpool, etc, I have selected use "attcking movement" in the buildup and hammered them; in the build up to the Chelsea match I went for "defensive movement" and beat them 2-0 (an early goal and one in injury time on the break); I also drew Everton in the League Cup, and decided to blood some youngsters, with 6 reserve team players coming in, with the rest fringe first-teamers and a strong bench - I selected my team 3 days before kick off and used the "team blend" option, and beat Everton at Goodison Park 4-1, with Lukaku getting a hattrick and Boyata scoring from a corner. I don't know if I used the final option correctly, but I have kept this up for my six months and I am second, still in the League Cup having despatched Arsenal youngsters with my youngsters as well as a first-team Fulham side, and doing okay.

All-in-all I think it's a great addition to the game.

The Special Focus selection in match preparation training will only affect the learning rate of the formation/tactics in the match preparation section. It does not affect the scheduled squad training (the old style training section) which is where the attributes progress.

The one thing in match preparation that will affect the scheduled squad training, is the overall workload assigned to Match Preparation. The more time you assign to match preparation, the quicker the players learn the formation and tactics they are assigned to train in match preparation. However this means less time is spent at the training ground on the scheduled squad training (the old styled training) and this will slow down the long term player development naturally.

So balancing between how much workload to assign to match preparation depends on what your aims are. If you want to win now and try and get the best out of your players in the upcoming matches, you'd probably want to put more time into the match preparation training until the players are familiar with your tactics. However, if you want to focus on developing players you might want to have less workload on match preparation as this leaves more time for the scheduled training for the players and gives them a better chance to improve their attributes.

I thank you. But you don't answer me for the meaning of "learn tactics" by the touch of god ?

Technically how proceed the engine, which learn what ? Don't answer me "tactic". Talk to me about something like pathfinding. Or sub memories programmes, i don't know. I'm not mean algorythm programs, just which performances ratio recieved a bonus, passing ? Position ? Everthing ? But learn tactic's like, don't means nothing.

I have 11 players with specifics attributes, i organized them in this consideration, and they play well. I could suppose match provid execices in terme of my own differents regulations. If i ask more pressing in match they run much, so they learn running benefit to stamina and the pressure in graphical training advertize me, theres activities %.

At this point could be very nice to have % on each workshop graphical bars !

I can understand that.

I can understand too, that a player learn experience about played long time in that position and recieved bonus in all achievements actions/performance ratio in match. Or in invers less penalities or attrition by consitence for example.

Explain me something like that ... But not a dry "learn tactic" ... which means nothin practical.

For information i practize the Vaughan explanation of hints and tips about individual training. Waiting 3 months calibration periods, and apply the result of the graphical respons on cursor. So, make some regulation of general level depend of condition necessities.

Any way the specification attributes lists, i suppose it's take count in the general graphical bars respons. If not ... We want Marc Vaughan ! We want Marc Vaughan ! We want Marc Vaughan ! ... Or we kill the cat !

Thank you to give us the light about "the learning"

Your sincerely

Well, I have to admit Teutomatos raise a quite interesting point here, at least he expressed his interest in game mechanics

I mean we basically understand it is better to keep some things unchanged in order to have some results (team blend, tempo, width...), player are getting used to the tactic, crystal clear.

But actually how it works?

I don't want as well to know the exact and precise algorythm or whatever you call it as it will remove a fair share of interest for the game and anyways I will not understand a single word, but I think some clear guidelines can be useful here.

A simple question to start a discussion here, there is 8 bars in match preparation, each one represent how the team get used to the tactics in one specific area, fair enough. But have all these bars the same weighting? Does it matter more to have a "good mentality bar" than a good "tempo bar"? if I remember well you (SI) stated that mentality is one of the most important setting. Is it still true regarding this new feature?

And, how make you players get used to the tactics, I mean on the pitch. They will have better chance to success in passing if the related bar is high. Less marking mistakes? Something like that?How can we notice, practically, the effects? And for example, in the special focus area it is only for the next game, what are the effect of "attacking movement", better "anticipation" or so?

Well, hope some guys from SI will show up here again and give us some food for thought, really looking forward to hearing some explanations about this great new feature

Thanks

To keep it short and simple:

Each area of the tactics tracked by the match preparation familiarity levels affects the player performance inside the match engine. The effect for each area is tied to related attributes and depending on the level of familiarity, the attributes gets a negative or a positive adjustment throughout the match. It is not a fully constant adjustment as it can vary a bit during the match naturally.

The special focus (outside of team blend, where the effect is factored in between matches) also affects the player performance inside the match engine with similar adjustments on related attributes, but in these cases the effects are more dynamic and the adjustments are applied only in certain situations. For example with "attacking movement" the effects only come into play when the team is on the attack with the ball and improves the player movement off the ball, whereas "attacking set pieces" for example improves the player anticipation during such set pieces.

So, if I understood that well, the special focus feature modify players atributes, improving some of them, during a match, it does not affect tactical settings.

Correct?

When looking at the tactic familiarity levels i see several areas that are affected by what strategy i have chosen. Does this mean that it's only the starting strategy that gets a positive effect on my players?

Does this mean that when i change strategy in game when needing to get a goal for example i will loose the positive effect that my players have gained during the week?

It's seems not Higgins. If i understood Riz Remes, that i thanks at this point, theres a kind of bonus. If you known the consistence attrition system, it's seems the inverse. In same way than a player use to play in natural position and have gratification sucess ratio to proceed at his post, for the focus plan you have selected beetween 2 matchs, in preparation set.

The value wasn't upgrad in terms of attributs levels, just artificial bonus on the next match only, for sucess rating.

I suppose the collision engine up some bonus if you select defense preferences.

Theres no interferences with training % activities, and so, no benefits for attributs progress.

Thank you Riz Remes

2 questions more with your permission : Could you give us, a kind of ratio system, like the Vaughan's explanation about the consistence ?

It's not a solution request, but how it's happen.

Because theres some confusion beetween the kind of effect beetween formation / players positions, and the selection of area process.

The second one, this is a totaly new set system which appears, or theres "familiarities" agreements rules under the tactics since the deeper history of this game ?

I was wondering. There's an option to try three formations out. If I was to click different things on each formation do the players work on them? E.g first formation I tick Team Blend, second formation - defence thrid formation attacking. If so, can I then pick the same formation for all three and then choose different things the team can work on. :confused:

I was wondering. There's an option to try three formations out. If I was to click different things on each formation do the players work on them? E.g first formation I tick Team Blend, second formation - defence thrid formation attacking. If so, can I then pick the same formation for all three and then choose different things the team can work on. :confused:

You can't do that. You can only work on one area at a time.

I'd like to ask if selecting 3 different tactics to prepare will decrease the rate of learning all 3 tactics as opposed to just concentrating on 1 tactic? ie jack of all trades, master of none.

You can't do that. You can only work on one area at a time.

Cheers. I thought so.

It's a beautiful feature. I've come on the forums to confirm my thinking about it and I guess I'm about right.

But even better is that as long as changes made during match do not differ too much to the original formation the players still are able to perform it. Now that's clever as I will tweak strikers and my AMC depending on whether I'm leading or losing.

So far what I can see that with full bars the team do as I tell them more perfectly. I'm a super micro-manager measuring distances between players during the game and also love possession football.

My players are now able to bring the ball up and if an opportunity doesn't appear they will pass it all the way back - something that didn't happen at the start of the season.

My two tactics are both 4-1-3-2 but one uses 3 central midfielders and 1 uses wingers and 1 central midfielder. When I introduced the second tactic the players already had some understanding of it because of the similarities.

I do have a couple of questions for Riz when he has the chance to answer.

Am I right in thinking that the ratings for how well the players know the tactic is an average for the players and not a total for the whole squad including reserves?

If so then buying in too many new players will lower the "knowledge" that has already been gained through the match preparation training of the tactic whilst the new player gets used to it and the established players get used to the new lads, which is what happens in real life to a certain extent.

If we promote a load of U18s into the first team or reserve squad would that have a noticable impact on the knowledge of the tactic, or would they be assumed to be familiar with it due to being at the club for a couple of years?

Training 3 different tactics makes the players learn them a bit slower than if you only train with 1 tactic.

I'll try and reply to the other questions above on Monday as it is weekend right now after all

Thats an interesting fact which i hadnt considered before. I had initially had my squad on team blend with the intent of them learning my primary tactic inside out. After a few weeks i added two other formations which i use every now and again depending on how a match is going and how badly i need a result but i never even considered they may take longer to learn them because of the fact there was now three so im going to go back to concentrating on my primary tactic.

One question that comes to mind for me is, does "Team Blend" mean that my entire squad work on learning the different aspects of my tactic so come matchday no matter what 11 players i choose they will all go onto the pitch knowing exactly what is required of them OR do i need to have the starting 11 players already selected before match preparation kicks in 3 days before the game itself in order for the players to benefit from it?

Bringing in players from other clubs (or free agents) can lower the familiarity levels depending on the squad status of the player and also if he is already used to similar tactics at his old club. Currently moving players between first team/reserves/youth team within the club does not affect the levels, as we are only modelling the match preparation on the first team level.

Team Blend special focus covers all players in the squad regardless of the eventual starting 11, as the actual team blending is updated outside of matches. Same goes for the effect for the other special focuses, there is no penalty in switching the starting 11 selections right before the next match as the match preparation works on a squad basis.

Riz, there's something I've always been curious about. (Apologies if it's been answered somewhere already). Does team blending work for only the first team or for reserve teams and U18/20 teams as well? So if I call up 11 players from my reserves, will they not be gelled at all? If so- what keeps me from just keeping the whole reserve team on my first team, and having them "avaliable for reserve team"?

Riz, there's something I've always been curious about. (Apologies if it's been answered somewhere already). Does team blending work for only the first team or for reserve teams and U18/20 teams as well? So if I call up 11 players from my reserves, will they not be gelled at all? If so- what keeps me from just keeping the whole reserve team on my first team, and having them "avaliable for reserve team"?

Riz Remes said : as we are only modelling the match preparation on the first team level.

Well, I hope Riz or SI guys are still around.

I have noticed something quite weird actually and I just can not figure out what is actually going on ?!

It is about match preparation and the formation familiarity level. I have made a quite simple test. I have looked the starting (day one) familiarity level for each formation, I was supposing it may be have something to do with my players, basically I was looking for the most "familiar" formation of my squad. It ended with a 442 each time, with a level of 50/100. Well, why not, I guess it is the most classical formation around.

The thing is I have done this test in 6 different teams...and each time I ended with a 442 at a 50/100 familiarity level, and actually each formation seems to have a pre-set familiarity level regardless of the players. I have summed up my little observations

row: team, column is formation. (Formation is default from the tactical creator). In the table The familiarity ratio on day one, for example 50 means 50/100

I really don't know how to figure out these numbers.

Does it simply mean that regardless of the players and the region, 442 is the most familiar formation for every players?

Does it means players need more time to get used to a 451 than for a 442 or even a 352?

What is the logic in these numbers? Is there any logic?

Is it real life football statictics based?

My mate and I were expecting some kind of regional pattern maybe, 442 in England, 4231ish in Spain, 4312ish in Italy...then we look for some crazy positionnal pattern like "If I have a back four and one DM..." but nothing did actually come up .

Any explanations will be really appreciated!!

Thanks in advance.

Thanks Riz, you are very helpful here, exactly what I wanted to know, it clears things up.

So, if I understand you well.

First team level players are used as a “basis” to model match preparation familiarity level. If I sign a new first team player, according to his previous tactics, familiarity levels can be lowered. If I decide to move some first team players in reserve squad to keep fitness or bring young player from the U20 in the first team, it will not affect the familiarity levels.

Loan players benefit of the familiarity level of the team when they play in the first team, but don’t "contribute" to it as they don’t have any squad status.

Young players and reserve players will not "contribute" as well to the team familiarity level as they are not first team, but when they play in first team, they will benefit of the current familiarity levels.

If I sign a young and promising player with “youngster” status, it will not affect familiarity levels of the team, because he is not first team

Between season, levels are familiarity are not lowered if I keep the exact same squad and the same tactics.

If I send a first team player (fully familiar with my current tactic) on loan, he has played a whole season a complete different tactic, when he comes back, he is likely to lower familiarity level, for example he was familiar with tempo 19 with me, he played one season tempo 1, it will take time to get familiar again with tempo 19. So each player is only fully familiar with one set of settings (tempo, width, closing down, formation...) at a time.

If I want to “save some learning time” I have to instruct my youth team to play in the same formation as my first team to get my young players used to this tactics. So when I decide to change squad status of one of my youngster from “youngster” to “important first team players” or “key players”, basically first team, his tactical familiarity history will be taken in account in the “updated” match preparation levels. As he has already played a lot my tactics, the team familiarity level will be, I guess, less lowered than if he had played a completely different tactics when in youth team.

The one thing in match preparation that will affect the scheduled squad training, is the overall workload assigned to Match Preparation. The more time you assign to match preparation, the quicker the players learn the formation and tactics they are assigned to train in match preparation. However this means less time is spent at the training ground on the scheduled squad training (the old styled training) and this will slow down the long term player development naturally.

So balancing between how much workload to assign to match preparation depends on what your aims are. If you want to win now and try and get the best out of your players in the upcoming matches, you'd probably want to put more time into the match preparation training until the players are familiar with your tactics. However, if you want to focus on developing players you might want to have less workload on match preparation as this leaves more time for the scheduled training for the players and gives them a better chance to improve their attributes.

Bringing in players from other clubs (or free agents) can lower the familiarity levels depending on the squad status of the player and also if he is already used to similar tactics at his old club. Currently moving players between first team/reserves/youth team within the club does not affect the levels, as we are only modelling the match preparation on the first team level.

After reading this, I checked at home one thing

If set workload max, it gives me 50% time for match preparation, in the training tab of every player profile (if I remember right) for all the players, both first and youth team.

I put it to minimum and again, the percentage is at the minimum (10% or 20% can't remember) for both first and youth team.

I mean if I'd like to have first team hard on match preparation and youth light for long term attribute training ( I'm simplifying your statement), I can't? Do you (SI and the others of this useful discussion, I'm not complying ) find this...logic?

Certain formations are most commonly used throughout the youth systems all over the world, so players are more familiar with them to begin with. Naturally 442 is the most known system. So some of the most common formations have a "default" starting level because most players are used to these systems. And naturally more complex formations that share elements from the most common systems (like a simple back four) retain a bit of the default starting level from the common formations.

A question and a suggestion regarding this.

If game in progress (not starting a new game) I sign to a new team, are "match preparation bars" updated to the situation left by the old/leaving coach?

suggestion: since there are (were) in the editor things like "preferred formation" in the team menu (inventing: Real Madrid have 4-2-3-1 wide as preferred formation...and I remember there are 3 formation setted right?), can't you do that at the start of a new game, the bars/value of match preparation are already setted with those formations more familiar (setted in the db/editor) then the "supposed opposite one"?

If not, what are those values for?

As far as I understand, match preparation effects are not directly player related, it is a collective “capital” apply on your current 11 on the pitch. As Riz said you can change the starting lineups just before a game, it does not matter. Your current 11, whatever status they are, will benefit of familiarity levels gained through match preparation.

I find logic that if everybody benefit from match preparation at the same level, everybody has to work the same amount of time (workload). The thing is these levels are only “based” on first team players (how familiar with your tactics they are). If you buy a new first team player and a new youth player, only the previous tactical familiarity of the first team player will modify the familiarity level, not the one of the young players.

If you want to regulate workload individually to focus a player on training so less on match preparation, I do think it is interesting to manage efficiently your team, but then you must be able to reproduce in a realistic way how a "non tactic familiar player "will play among "familiar" player for example.

From here you have different ways to go. Either you update level for this very game by doing an “average value” including the lower familiar guy. And then you apply the updated level for every player on the pitch. It is maybe “realistic” for team orientated “setting” tempo or width as it will disturb team balance a bit, but it is definitely not for marking if your guy is a forward as your back 4 will not be that disturbed. If your guy is a new DC along an established one, the latter will not become less familiar but he will maybe have to deal with more issue marking issue related to inexperienced guy.

Or you split collective familiarity into individual, so match preparation is now only player related. But I don’t see how it will work for team orientated setting. I think it will require a deeper understanding of player relative behaviors, my example for marking familiarity for a “new” DC along a “established” one must be a really tough job to emulate.

IMHO the current way is the most simple though the drawbacks as you pointed out. But SI can do a great job of realism by upgrading correctly over time this feature, I hope so.

Basically I understand the system NakS (or so I think....). Thanks anyway.

The thing is these levels are only “based” on first team players (how familiar with your tactics they are).

But if you set workload max, even the player in the youth team have this setting in the training menu (50% individual training and 50% match preparation). So this setting is not only for first team, but for youth team too. This means if you take a youth team player in first team, familiarity (let's call it this way) doesn't change.

Note that if you want to focus on youth team player development you have to set it low...but in this way your first team is focusing on player development too!

I think the setting should be splitted in 2 way, one for first team and one for youth team. In real life the first team and youth don't "train together" right?

I'm not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but would it be possible to be able to create a tactic with just 10 men so the team can prepare for a new formation should a man get sent off?

I'm not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but would it be possible to be able to create a tactic with just 10 men so the team can prepare for a new formation should a man get sent off?

I don't believe it is Daf. However you can save tactics in game with shouts already on and then get the team to learn that. So you could in essence once down to 10 men change your formation, set the appropriate shouts and then save it and have them learn it once your back at match prep. They wouldn't get used to the 10 men thing but would at least be au fait with everything else.

I'm not sure if this has ever been mentioned, but would it be possible to be able to create a tactic with just 10 men so the team can prepare for a new formation should a man get sent off?

It's something I thought too eheheh. I think, and this can only be suggested for FM12, it should be reserved a special slot for a 10 man tactic, I don't think it can be done in this release. Only SI knows if it can be useful, it depends on how this new system works.

now i completely understand this new feature: FANTASTIC.

The first/reserve teams practice together but youth teams have separate training. Also the match preparation is only modelled for the first teams, so it shouldn't be displaying the workload percentage for youth team players. This will be fixed for the patch.

It shouldn't be displaying AND it shouldn't be calculated for youth team players I hope :o

Excellent so this is just a demo problem, if it'll be fixed in full game, it's great news, really really great. thank you for answer me.

little edit: in non english-like team, where reserve team is useless, it will still be useful to keep players in first team? because you said "match preparation is only modelled for the first teams". So if I'm in Italy and I put players in reserve team? are they "in" match preparation?

The first/reserve teams practice together but youth teams have separate training. Also the match preparation is only modelled for the first teams, so it shouldn't be displaying the workload percentage for youth team players. This will be fixed for the patch.

Ok, so when I play a youngster (young training schedule) in a first team game with first teams players (players with a professionnal training schedule), does the familiarity levels apply to him as he does not train with first/reserve teams? How does the game deal with this case?

Ok, thanks Riz, I know I am insisting but what kind of "slight" modifications are you talking about? Does these modifications have something to do with the tactic I instruct my youth team to play?

Thanks anyway for all the info in this thread, really appreciated

Riz, could you tell me if I still get the benefit of familiarity levels if during match I change a setting in my ‘current’ tactic to match a setting in tactic 2 and 3?

For example, if my 'current' tactic has tempo 10, tactic 2 tempo 5, and tactic 3 tempo 15, do I then receive tempo familiarity levels according to each tactic when I change the tempo slider in ‘current’ tactic to 5 or 15 during match? Or will I have to switch to tactic 2 and 3 (and thus erasing all the individual player settings I tweaked during match)?

Excellent! This will save me a lot of clicking!

One more thing: do any of the below instructions factor into a familiarity level?

- tackling?

- defensive line?

- focus passing?

- target man supply?

- use target man?

- use playmaker?

- play offside?

- counter attack?

- type of crossing?

- team or individual instructions for corners, free kicks, and throw ins?

- forward runs?

Well Jimmy, you can check this directly in the game, you only have 8 instructions in familiarity level. So, unless there is some hidden familiarity level, here you go.

From memory you have "formation, mentality, creative freedom, closing down, passing, tempo, width and marking"

Then you can pick among 5 specific match preparation if you want to focus on a specific area. For example, you have noticed that the team you are facing next game heavily conceded from indirect free kicks or corners, it may be the right time to work on your offensive set pieces, you know what I mean

Thanks a lot again Riz, thanks to you I have understood many things regarding match preparation, KUTGW

NakS, that is not helpful.

What I want to know is if for example the "formation" familiarity only takes into consideration the 'positions' of the players, or if it also factors in settings such as having trained 'defensive line', 'use target man', 'play offside' or 'counter attack'. Same thing for the 'passing style' familiarity: does it only relate to each player's 'passing style' setting, or does it also take into account their 'cross from' and 'cross aim' setting, or the team's 'focus passing'?

Oh, my bad, I didn't get your point. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

I was thinking you were talking about "crossing aim" familiarity level on its own, as closing down for example. For what it worths I have already tweaked D-line, and other settings like passing focus, it doesn't seem to modify any levels as you can see when you change tempo for example.

Another thing i have started noticing is the amount of goals im conceding from corners. A problem i never had a huge amount of in previous games. For the first few months i had everything on team blend but now everything is maxed out and on fluid i have since changed to defending set pieces to rectify the problem. I usually have a defender on each post (im yet to see either of them clear a shot off the line, they usually wander off the post at the critical moment and do nothing). I have my two centre halfs marking tall players and the rest on man mark. Alot of the time they dont mark the player at all and he has a free shot on goal. There has been no improvement of note that i can see.

It has been said previously that any match preparation apart from team blend only gives you a "bonus" for the upcoming match. When it comes to defending set pieces i dont neccesarilly agree that this bonus should only apply for the upcoming game and then afterwards they forget everything they have learned. For example, the system we all have for defending corners is going to be pretty much the same for every corner in every game they play so there should be a level of familiarity ie: two players on the posts, certain players marking tall danger men etc, just like there is for tempo,width,formation etc etc

This doesnt mean that if you were capable of achieving "fluid" for defending set pieces that you would never concede from them but it would mean that your player at least knew what was expected of them and if they make a mistake you get punished for it.