FM08's DB is 'somewhat' questionable...

hi all,

i've been messing around with fm08's editor a bit after getting lots of annoying and unrealistic results in the game with the standard database.

after looking through the database for a few hours, i sure do know what causes this. for instance, clubs in norway's second division with ~300 attendances often have the same facilities/youth setup as clubs like everton or atalanta! what a joke. the norwegian 'researcher' for SI must be a hell of a patriot. or stripped of realism, that is. compare english second, third and lower division clubs to italian or brazilian clubs in similair divisions, and it becomes obvious being the england national manager sure is a job to envy in fm08: italian and brazilian clubs are VASTLY underrated. serie b clubs have facilities/youth setups that are comparable to coca-cola league 2. how very realistic. even sides the likes of dulwich hamlet have a 'professional' status in the game, and better youth setups than bari or verona in serie b. there's LOADS more of such utter nonsense, but i'm not going to discuss these here.

further, there's luxembourg 2nd division teams in the game. i checked youtube for some clips, just to see what the level of lux.2nd.div is like. well, ofcourse it's a complete joke. even i could sign up as a fast brilliant winger there. i've edited all the lux.2nd.div club to the lowest possible, 1 reputation, 1 morale, 1 facilities, 1 youth setup, amateur status, 1 for division reputation, 1 for competition level. i started a new game, took control of juventus, used a cheating program to boost morale and match fitness (just to make sure juventus are playing to their max to test if it'd be possible to finally hammer such teams) and took a 'luxembourg preseason tour'. needless to say, still crappy 3-0 or 4-1 results, and yes, even a draw: 1-1.

imagine juventus playing 1-1 against excuses for footballteams like this:

(be sure to check the 2nd goal - and prepare to ROFLOL!)

having outsiders 'research' and program leagues just doesnt work. i'd like to ask the norwegian patriot how many times norway have won the world cup. considering his idea of his countries football infrastructure, they should have won it 10 times, anything less would be a disgrace with such infrastructure and players. other researches must be incredibly modest about their leagues.

FM08's database is just one big ****up, and so is the match engine, that sees juventus and real madrid 'battle' to a 1-1 atleast once in pre-season friendlies against sides like this:

i'd say 0-12 would be way more realistic even at 60% match fitness after watching the absolutely hilarious level of the andorran premier division in the above url. however, that just seems impossible in fm08. a multimillion euro squad battles to 1-1's and 2-0's in andorra in fm08, and a norwegian team from a 5K town has a better youth setup than napoli.

also england's 2-1 victories away at turks islands or brazils 3-0 at home vs american samoa are hilarious.

check am. samoa's results here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualif...29#Preliminary_Round

0-7 vs samoa, 1-12 vs solomon islands, 0-4 vs tonga and 0-15 vs vanuatu!! in FM08? 0-3 vs brazil, or maybe a 'hammering' of 0-5 once in a while... i remember australia once beat the poor bastards 33-0. now thats something that sure is impossible in fm08, 'the most realistic soccer manager ever', in which juventus and r.madrid battle to victories in andorra and norwegian hamlets, that have maradonna's and cruyff's popping up almost daily thanx to their absurd facilities.

am i really the only one that is bothered by all this UTTER nonsense in FM?

hi all,

i've been messing around with fm08's editor a bit after getting lots of annoying and unrealistic results in the game with the standard database.

after looking through the database for a few hours, i sure do know what causes this. for instance, clubs in norway's second division with ~300 attendances often have the same facilities/youth setup as clubs like everton or atalanta! what a joke. the norwegian 'researcher' for SI must be a hell of a patriot. or stripped of realism, that is. compare english second, third and lower division clubs to italian or brazilian clubs in similair divisions, and it becomes obvious being the england national manager sure is a job to envy in fm08: italian and brazilian clubs are VASTLY underrated. serie b clubs have facilities/youth setups that are comparable to coca-cola league 2. how very realistic. even sides the likes of dulwich hamlet have a 'professional' status in the game, and better youth setups than bari or verona in serie b. there's LOADS more of such utter nonsense, but i'm not going to discuss these here.

further, there's luxembourg 2nd division teams in the game. i checked youtube for some clips, just to see what the level of lux.2nd.div is like. well, ofcourse it's a complete joke. even i could sign up as a fast brilliant winger there. i've edited all the lux.2nd.div club to the lowest possible, 1 reputation, 1 morale, 1 facilities, 1 youth setup, amateur status, 1 for division reputation, 1 for competition level. i started a new game, took control of juventus, used a cheating program to boost morale and match fitness (just to make sure juventus are playing to their max to test if it'd be possible to finally hammer such teams) and took a 'luxembourg preseason tour'. needless to say, still crappy 3-0 or 4-1 results, and yes, even a draw: 1-1.

imagine juventus playing 1-1 against excuses for footballteams like this:

(be sure to check the 2nd goal - and prepare to ROFLOL!)

having outsiders 'research' and program leagues just doesnt work. i'd like to ask the norwegian patriot how many times norway have won the world cup. considering his idea of his countries football infrastructure, they should have won it 10 times, anything less would be a disgrace with such infrastructure and players. other researches must be incredibly modest about their leagues.

FM08's database is just one big ****up, and so is the match engine, that sees juventus and real madrid 'battle' to a 1-1 atleast once in pre-season friendlies against sides like this:

i'd say 0-12 would be way more realistic even at 60% match fitness after watching the absolutely hilarious level of the andorran premier division in the above url. however, that just seems impossible in fm08. a multimillion euro squad battles to 1-1's and 2-0's in andorra in fm08, and a norwegian team from a 5K town has a better youth setup than napoli.

also england's 2-1 victories away at turks islands or brazils 3-0 at home vs american samoa are hilarious.

check am. samoa's results here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualif...29#Preliminary_Round

0-7 vs samoa, 1-12 vs solomon islands, 0-4 vs tonga and 0-15 vs vanuatu!! in FM08? 0-3 vs brazil, or maybe a 'hammering' of 0-5 once in a while... i remember australia once beat the poor bastards 33-0. now thats something that sure is impossible in fm08, 'the most realistic soccer manager ever', in which juventus and r.madrid battle to victories in andorra and norwegian hamlets, that have maradonna's and cruyff's popping up almost daily thanx to their absurd facilities.

am i really the only one that is bothered by all this UTTER nonsense in FM?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hardwired:

am i really the only one that is bothered by all this UTTER nonsense in FM? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, as is evident by the dozens of other threads about unrealistic results etc. Sigh

Although a database so huge is sure to have mistakes, I think you are just looking at anecdotal cases that don't really make much of a difference.

Maybe if you had played Brasil's match 50 times you would have a bit more to argue with. One strange result doesn't constitute evidence...

Also, it would be interesting if you could compare the norwegian facilites in the database with the ones that exist in real life, club for club. That would be something.

Well I have actually been playing in these smaller leagues all over europe through different things and actually if you google map the stadiums you will see that almost all of them are pretty much correct to size, so maybe before you start going on about that as a problem you should check it out right?

As for the rest, you are pretty much pulling up one run of results and claiming it us bad because of it. But whatever you want to to think. And seen as you fiddled with the database first I am going to ignore these results completely.

But the stadiums are all mostly correct.

Holy crap you found a real life supergoalie!

On the realism of the facilities issue I can't comment since I have no clue what way researchers judge facilities nor have I actually seen any of these clubs' facilities in order to be able to make a real life comparison. From an expectations perspective I can't disagree that it does seem strange that a 2nd division Norwegian side with an attendance level of 300 would have a better facilities rating than Everton, or that many Serie B clubs have facilities on a similar level of an English League 2 side.

If you feel that strongly about it why not post in the Data Issues forum and find out what the researcher in question has seen to make him/her decide to assign these clubs their given facilities ratings. Only someone who has been to the club in question can say one way or the other if the ratings are accurate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by hardwired:-

further, there's luxembourg 2nd division teams in the game. i checked youtube for some clips, just to see what the level of lux.2nd.div is like. well, ofcourse it's a complete joke. even i could sign up as a fast brilliant winger there. i've edited all the lux.2nd.div club to the lowest possible, 1 reputation, 1 morale, 1 facilities, 1 youth setup, amateur status, 1 for division reputation, 1 for competition level. i started a new game, took control of juventus, used a cheating program to boost morale and match fitness (just to make sure juventus are playing to their max to test if it'd be possible to finally hammer such teams) and took a 'luxembourg preseason tour'. needless to say, still crappy 3-0 or 4-1 results, and yes, even a draw: 1-1.

imagine juventus playing 1-1 against excuses for footballteams like this:

(be sure to check the 2nd goal - and prepare to ROFLOL!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify what you are saying here:-

1. You started a game as Juventus

2. You arranged a preseason tour of Luxembourg

3. You got worse results than you were expecting

which leads you to the conclusion that the game is bolloxed.

I can't disagree with the idea that the difference in quality of players should lead to strong victories for Juventus regardless of how bad the tactics are (either in real life or FM) since it is a team of professionals (including players with experience at the highest levels) versus a bunch of amateurs. But it is a game and you need to tell your players what to do or give them enough freedom to let their own abilities shine through, and your overall team instructions need to be linked to this. Also when heavy favourites, even in a friendly, the right team talk can make a difference.

Before I post the next thing I must clarify that I am not trying to be a dick about this nor am I trying to say 'LOL! OMFGZ u mus b crap at dis'. I'm just trying to show you that the game is an input -> output calculator re the match engine (with a little bit of randomness thrown in) and the results you achieved against the Luxembourg teams are a reflection of this.

I did exactly as you did. Started a new game as Juventus (8.02 update database)and set up 3 friendlies against Luxembourg teams at their grounds. I also did as you did and boosted morale and match fitness. The results were 11-1, 10-0 and 8-0.

http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/4384/juventusjk7.jpg

Not quite 12-0 but reasonable. I'm no master tactician in FM so I am sure there are plenty of people who could do better. As I said I'm not trying to be a dick and show you up, just showing you that the problem you see with your Juventus vs Luxembourg amateurs results might not necessarily be with the game itself .

Another frustrated FMer, who's come here to moan about the game because he didn't succeed in it.

People set ridiculous expectations for their FM club and when they don't succeed they come here and moan. Please at least do the research yourself before starting a rant on database researcher. Sure there can be some human mistake but this is not the way to go.

Speaking of the database, of course its wrong. The FM team can only rely on the biased views of scouting staff aswell as their own. Thats probably why theres an editor that comes with the game. Personally, even tho' im english i cant stand how biased the FM team are to english players. We know our national side are technically lacking and we allways bottle it on the big occassions, yet the England squad in FM always has been amazing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lucho_:

Although a database so huge is sure to have mistakes, I think you are just looking at anecdotal cases that don't really make much of a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>not really lucho. i've tested lots of matches before posting this. like the scientific method - pass many = theory.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Maybe if you had played Brasil's match 50 times you would have a bit more to argue with. One strange result doesn't constitute evidence... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>0-3, or maybe a hammering of 0-5 once in a while does implicate i've played this match multiple times, right? i think i've played am.samoa 15 times w/ brazil, 7-0 being the highest, but 80% is in the 3-0/4-1 range. australia won 31-0 there. vanuatu won 15-0 there. have you ever seen a 20-0 score in fm08? ofcos not.

fm should have a much wider range of team strenght. like in cm2, when playing amateurs usually resulted in 10 or 12-0.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also, it would be interesting if you could compare the norwegian facilites in the database with the ones that exist in real life, club for club. That would be something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>load the editor, and check the norwegian 3rd division facilities of clubs from 2-5K towns vs napoli, atalanta and the likes. then you'll see what i mean. norway is absolutely overrated in this game. alesund and hamkam really don't do much worse than boca juniors or cruzeiro.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Des Tiny:

Well I have actually been playing in these smaller leagues all over europe through different things and actually if you google map the stadiums you will see that almost all of them are pretty much correct to size, so maybe before you start going on about that as a problem you should check it out right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>im not talking about stadium size. i'm sure that's pretty correct. i'm talking about norwegian hamlets that have a youth setup like napoli, a 1M italian city.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As for the rest, you are pretty much pulling up one run of results and claiming it us bad because of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>it's not 1 run of results. i've been messing and testing this for about 2 months. it's based on a lot of research, game testing, youtube movies of luxemburg 2nd division, norwegian 3rd division and google earth.

i suppose its my poor writing in the 1st post then, with so many ppl thinking i'm claiming all this based on 2 hours of gameplay.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But whatever you want to to think. And seen as you fiddled with the database first I am going to ignore these results completely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i've only edited luxembourg to make the teams a lot weaker. then i started a game w/ juventus. cheated to get 100% match fitness. played a luxembourg tour 10 times. only to realise juventus can't beat utter amateurs 10-0 on average. i've provided urls to real life matches. you really think juventus usually wins 3 or 4-0 there, like in the game?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But the stadiums are all mostly correct. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>the size's are. i havent complained about that once in my post. its just that napoli has like a '14' youth setup, norwegian hamlets have about the same. a 5K town w/ a 1M city youth setup.

start a game in norway. you'll be amazed by the SHEER TALENT 5K town-clubs produce. absolute nonsense. like brazil beating samoa 4-0 on avg. totally unrealistic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FestyF:

Another frustrated FMer, who's come here to moan about the game because he didn't succeed in it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I've reached 2nd round championsleague w/ dutch ADO Den Haag in 5 seasons, thank you. FM is pretty realistic when it comes to european cups and premier european divisions.

all i'm complaining about is that its impossible to hammer really poor teams. does anyone have a 20-0 score screenshot? show me!<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">People set ridiculous expectations for their FM club and when they don't succeed they come here and moan. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So, it ridiculous juventus beat a 3rd division luxembourg club 15-0? it's ridiculous to complain about brazil's 4-0 average vs american samoa?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please at least do the research yourself before starting a rant on database researcher. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>youtube urls?

comparing 5K towns from norway w/ napoli?

URLs to oceania world cup qualifing results, posting a 10-match average FM score?

"how much more do you want?"<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Sure there can be some human mistake but this is not the way to go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>FM08 is a really cool game. when it comes to top divisions, european leagues and the likes.

its just that utter amateurs should be hammered way more easily. and SI should really do some more checking of comparing leagues. underrated uruguay, italian lower leagues, and utterly strong norwegian hamlets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:

On the realism of the facilities issue I can't comment since I have no clue what way researchers judge facilities nor have I actually seen any of these clubs' facilities in order to be able to make a real life comparison. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>there's youtube, google, google earth and an excellent editor.

check the editor, g2 norway 2nd division. find the norwegian town in google earth. search for matches on youtube played by the team. prepare to ROFLOL watching matches played by the tiny side. prepare to LUAO when comparing the tiny norwegian hamlet FC vs napoli in FM08. it doesnt take an einstein to realise we're dealing w/ sheer unrealism in fm08 here, right?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">From an expectations perspective I can't disagree that it does seem strange that a 2nd division Norwegian side with an attendance level of 300 would have a better facilities rating than Everton, or that many Serie B clubs have facilities on a similar level of an English League 2 side. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>exectly.

and thats what im complaining about. not that im not succesful in fm08, not that i dont enjoy the game. there's a lot of pro's to this game. cept that the truly poor sides present in the game are vastly overrated.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you feel that strongly about it why not post in the Data Issues forum and find out what the researcher in question has seen to make him/her decide to assign these clubs their given facilities ratings. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>cool, i'll look into that soon. i've only registered here yesterday.

i've also edited a lot of short and long names in my database. europe has full names now, Manchester Utd - Manchester City, Derby County - Wigan Athletic, Leeds Utd - West Bromwich Albion sure do look a lot better than Man Utd - Man City Derby - Wigan, Leeds - West Brom. i don't quite understand why the short names still are 'really short', when there's no need for this anymore. the full names look way better.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Only someone who has been to the club in question can say one way or the other if the ratings are accurate. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i personally dont think visiting is required. i can see the norwegian hamlet in google earth. i can watch their games on youtube. my iq is probably a bit higher than 55. i can confidently state this hamlet doesnt have the same youth setup as napoli, everton and the likes. i can confidently say serie b teams are underrated. i can confidently say brazilian second division teams are overrated: brazil has 130M pop, 2nd division teams often play in 1M+ city, have 55K stadiums, brazil is stocked w/ talent as we all know, yet those teams have lower youth setups than norwegian hamlets.

doesnt take a scientist to know this is 'kinda funny', right?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Just to clarify what you are saying here:-

1. You started a game as Juventus

2. You arranged a preseason tour of Luxembourg

3. You got worse results than you were expecting

which leads you to the conclusion that the game is bolloxed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>indeed. checked the provided url?

now, if i play those teams 10 times w/ juventus, winning 3/4-0 on avg, do you really feel my expectations of a world renowned top serie a side hammering lux.2nd.div 10, 12-0 on avg is unrealistic? like i said: i could sign up as a winger in lux.2nd.div.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I can't disagree with the idea that the difference in quality of players should lead to strong victories for Juventus regardless of how bad the tactics are (either in real life or FM) since it is a team of professionals (including players with experience at the highest levels) versus a bunch of amateurs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>exactly. 4-0 is a disgraceful result.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But it is a game and you need to tell your players what to do or give them enough freedom to let their own abilities shine through, and your overall team instructions need to be linked to this. Also when heavy favourites, even in a friendly, the right team talk can make a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>that's true. but there's 100 lightyears of quality difference between these teams IRL. something that isnt incorporated in FM08. ofcos you're right stating that being heavy favourite makes players a lot less motivated. same goes for australia in 2001 vs samoa. 31-0. juventus at 70% match-fitness, rubbish tactics, heavy favourites, you name it, still should produce scores in the order of 15-0.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Before I post the next thing I must clarify that I am not trying to be a dick about this nor am I trying to say 'LOL! OMFGZ u mus b crap at dis'. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont think i suck at fm08. i've had thousands of hours of fun taking small clubs to great heights w/in 5 seasons. dont get me wrong: I LIKE THIS GAME

all i complain about is that 20-0 scores are impossible. the truly poor sides in fm08 are so vastly overrated, and that really bothers me.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm just trying to show you that the game is an input -> output calculator re the match engine (with a little bit of randomness thrown in) and the results you achieved against the Luxembourg teams are a reflection of this.

I did exactly as you did. Started a new game as Juventus (8.02 update database)and set up 3 friendlies against Luxembourg teams at their grounds. I also did as you did and boosted morale and match fitness. The results were 11-1, 10-0 and 8-0. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>stange, i rarely get 10+ scores. even when i play pression with very few defenders all out attack vs luxembourg teams. there's rarely 10+ scores from teams i dont manage either. 6 or 7-0 is like an extreme score, 11-0, 10-0 and 8-0, i've never had such a run, nor see a top european side produce results like that in pre-season friendlies either.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not quite 12-0 but reasonable. I'm no master tactician in FM so I am sure there are plenty of people who could do better. As I said I'm not trying to be a dick and show you up, just showing you that the problem you see with your Juventus vs Luxembourg amateurs results might not necessarily be with the game itself . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>no matter what tactics you use, 15-0 should be a default score in such matches. unless you play like 10-0-0 vs amateurs.

a friend of mine plays fm08 a lot too, always managing liverpool. he sometimes mails screenshots of 13-0 games. or brazil winning 15-0 vs uh, burundi or sth. i about never see such results on my computer. still, fm08 is a lot of fun. it's truly satisfing taking a small club into the european leagues in a couple of seasons. i just feel it's a bit scarse on true hammering of really sorry sides. and the db inconsistencies are a bit annoying.

Oh my good lord. I can't believe you don't have anything better to do with your time than "investigate" football manager. It's a GAME. Nothing more, nothing less.

I'm betting you're either fairly young or have not considered the most obvious factor in your "investigation".

How the heck is a Norweigen researcher going to know what Everton's training facilities are like?

Bearing in mind these researchers work for nothing more than an advance copy of the game, do you really think he has time to call round Cirencester FC and Stafford Town and Napoli to compare their facilities to his own favourite club? No. He compares Norweigen club to Norweigen club and yes, you can call this a weakness in the system, but it's about as good as it's going to get.

And if you are drawing 1-1 with a Luxembourg team as Juventus, it is most definitely your tactics. I just logged on to my new Leeds game and changed the pre-season to an unedited friendly in Luxembourg:

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leedsresultsluxzx0.jpg

I left my team the same, the Lux teams the same, and aside from a couple of signings garnered from the Good Player Forum, I haven't "cheated" at all. You'll see the results improving as the pre-season goes on, which is due to the number of new arrivals in my team taking time to gel. Here's the lineup for the Racing game:

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leedslineupluxmg6.jpg

I hate to rant, but this really has been a waste of your time. FM is a game. It tries to be a simulator but it will NEVER truly reflect real life, such is the reality of modern physics. Please accept that and move on. That's two months of your life you're never getting back. Either accept the game for what it is, or stick to X-Box.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FestyF:

Please at least do the research yourself before starting a rant on database researcher. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

I hate to rant, but this really has been a waste of your time. FM is a game. It tries to be a simulator but it will NEVER truly reflect real life, such is the reality of modern physics. Please accept that and move on. That's two months of your life you're never getting back. Either accept the game for what it is, or stick to X-Box. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just goes to show you it's not about what or how you did something, it's about how famous you are. Apparently quite a lot of thought and research has gone into this. I can't comment on your own scores because tactics and other factors do come in everytime but I can at least appreciate the effort put into this. You seem to have a point but keep in mind there is a lot more to this game than fitness, formation and player strength. The training facilities and youth system thing sounds dodgy too but again, Google Earth isn't quite good enough to comprehend how the youth system works in a small hamlet in Norway. Maybe they really are bad or maybe they are surprisingly good but the point is if you are really confident of your results post the same data in the Data Issues forum as mentioned and hope for the best.

And:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

How the heck is a Norweigen researcher going to know what Everton's training facilities are like? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They aren't, common sense should allow them to compare their researched data to the worst and the best that data could possibly be and give a sensible rating.

Excuse me, but what db were you watching?

I just looked at it.

Everton's youth/training setup is 16/16.

Only a handful of Norwegian clubs are about this level, with only two – Randaberg and Sparta – being non-elite clubs.

Randaberg looks filthy rich, looking at their plans, the Sparta bit looks to be a mistake.

Furthermore, what others said: training facilities is relative to the country. For being absolute, probably there should be about 20-25 levels.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by emgergo:

Excuse me, but what db were you watching? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was just wondering the same thing... I was looking at 8.0.2 here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hardwired:

even sides the likes of dulwich hamlet have a 'professional' status in the game </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Semi-pro in mine.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hardwired:

and better youth setups than bari or verona in serie b. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

For me:

Dulwich: Youth Setup 8, no academy.

Chievo: Youth Setup 10, academy.

Bari: Youth Setup 14, academy.

Maybe you unwittingly have an edited version of the database, if you are getting this kind of thing?

And as for those results... yeah, it probably is your tactics, as most other people seem to have no issues.

As others have said though, teams like Juventus really should beat teams like those by much larger margins, even if you're the worst manager ever, simply due to skill.

If you are being picky surely a worse error is the atroucious reputation and pa errors that make Portuguese, German, Argentine leagues a joke as they end up being full of either terrible, worthless randomly generated players (Portugal) or fantastic players who are worth peanuts (Argentina) .

I've suggested it before but I really think it is time that all the researchers were singing from the same hymn sheet. Find a way to make the values of all the data sets crystal clear to all them so that at the end of the day all the leagues are fairly represented! Perhaps then you won't get odd little things like Spanish players who can't jump (I think that was one of the examples of a nation specific error) or leagues where players often have no values for pa and ca like the lower leagues in Portugal.

**FOR ANYBODY WHO CLICKED ON SOME OF THE IMAGESHACK LINKS IN THIS THREAD READ THIS**

I opened up this forum earlier. It was the only site I visited including clicking on a couple of the imageshack links in this thread. This was around 17:10 today. About 10 minutes or so later I realised my net connection was communicating even when Internet Explorer was inactive. I checked on Task Manager and there were a few processes running that weren't recognisable to me. Basically I picked up a virus. Unless it was a latent virus (if that even exists?) I must have picked it up clicking on one of the imageshack links in this thread.

When I click the various links now everything is fine, but for anyone who clicked on them around the same time you might want to check out Task Manager for herjek.exe and NTBA7A32.exe running.

The files that were created around the same time included:-

In WINDOWS\TEMP:-

herjek.exe

NTBA7A32.exe

In WINDOWS\system32:-

basewre32.dll or BASEWRE32.DLL

found.exe.exe

winsub.xml

svcp.csv

I'm not 100% certain that clicking on one of those links was where these nasties came from but their creation date and time suggests that might be the case. The links all seem to be safe to click now.

So on the off chance it was one off those links I would suggest that anyone who clicked on any imageshack links in this thread earlier today (mine was about 17:13) check that you haven't picked up the virus(es). If your internet connection shows activity even when your browser is inactive it might point to an issue, but if you have a decent firewall running you should be able to see what programs are doing this.

Part of the problem is that friendlies cannot be run in full detail (if you as a manager are not playing in them), like competitions can, hence some of the unrealisticly low results.

I watched three of the Andorran league videos on Youtube. Those matches are a very, very low standard indeed.

However, do NOT underestimate the level of club facilities in Norway.

Norway's a very rich country and a football-crazy one, for that matters. There is huge investment in football, especially in grassroot levels. I know very well the training facilities of bigger clubs in Italy and England, and often Norwegian clubs - no matter their level - match them easily.

The fact that they play questionable football on top of those facilities is a different matter

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

Oh my good lord. I can't believe you don't have anything better to do with your time than "investigate" football manager. It's a GAME. Nothing more, nothing less. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>lol. you actually have a point here <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm betting you're either fairly young </div></BLOCKQUOTE>32.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">or have not considered the most obvious factor in your "investigation".

How the heck is a Norweigen researcher going to know what Everton's training facilities are like? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>easy:

it's rated 1-20. the researcher can also check everton's facilities in the database. one can check everton's facilities on the net. so many options.

and therefore its way beyond me why someone would rate a 5K town/300 avg attendance lower league team w/ a '12-14' (the napoli-blackburn-everton class) youth setup. this is also a big flaw in croatian lower leagues, for instance.

it's really not that hard to be a bit more realistic, i'd say.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bearing in mind these researchers work for nothing more than an advance copy of the game, do you really think he has time to call round Cirencester FC and Stafford Town and Napoli to compare their facilities to his own favourite club? No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Thats your JOB as a database researcher. this is a COMMERCIAL game. i expect some RESEARCH here. an intelligent person should actually be very capable of instantly realising cirencester fc has '1' or '2' youth setup, not '12-14'. sure isnt as compilicated as quantum mechanics, right?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">He compares Norweigen club to Norweigen club and yes, you can call this a weakness in the system, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>he should compare it to:

15-20 worldclass side

10-15 relegation premier league teams

6-10 your standard second division team

1-2 amateurs from hamlets w/ a 300 avg attendance.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but it's about as good as it's going to get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i've spend DAYS editing ALL european leagues right down to the amateurs, rendered a new game w/ all leagues active, and sure the amateur teams now are way better rendered.

thats how difficult it is. i love my own database, gives me a way better sense of realism.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if you are drawing 1-1 with a Luxembourg team as Juventus, it is most definitely your tactics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>dude, get real.

no matter what ******** tactics you use, juventus drawing 1-1 against a 2nd div luxembourg team is just utter fantasia. ofcourse i win most matches. ofcourse FM08 has a lot of realism in it.

it's just that the poorest teams in the game are way too strong. that's the only flaw if you ask me. and thats the reason of this topic. i want to know if there are more ppl who feel the way i do. can anyone show me a 20+-0 score? that's like the average loss of american samoa.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just logged on to my new Leeds game and changed the pre-season to an unedited friendly in Luxembourg:

http://img411.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leedsresultsluxzx0.jpg

I left my team the same, the Lux teams the same, and aside from a couple of signings garnered from the Good Player Forum, I haven't "cheated" at all. You'll see the results improving as the pre-season goes on, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>true, im not complaining about any of those factors in fm08.

its just that there's side's that should lose 20-0 against a 9-player juventus squad with poor tactics.

that's not found in the game. sure you usually beat luxembourg sides. ofcourse the results improve as the preseason advances. there's just no true hammering of true amateurs. that's all. please, finally understand my only complaint.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">which is due to the number of new arrivals in my team taking time to gel. Here's the lineup for the Racing game:

http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=leedslineupluxmg6.jpg

I hate to rant, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>so do i.

this topic isnt meant as a rant. i'm just trying to point out the one problem that bothers me most. absolute hammering of the poorest sides in the game.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but this really has been a waste of your time. FM is a game. It tries to be a simulator but it will NEVER truly reflect real life, such is the reality of modern physics. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>that's absolutely correct.

but that doesnt mean fm09 should be better to hammer the poorest sides, kinda like in cm97. when playing dutch premier league amateurs w/ real madrid always resulted in realistic 10 or 12-0 scores.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please accept that and move on. That's two months of your life you're never getting back. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i dont mind, i dont see this as a waste of time. i just hope -prolly futile- this topic will bring improvement from SI in the future, considering this problem.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Either accept the game for what it is, or stick to X-Box. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>lol.

i dont have a console. i like fm08 a lot. the premier leagues, the euro cups, its great.

im just missing out on the 20-0's vs. 40 year old bricklayers and postmen from NOR, LUX, CRO hamlets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Only a handful of Norwegian clubs are about this level, with only two – Randaberg and Sparta – being non-elite clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>oh well perhaps there's a difference of 2 or 3 points. but thats about the same, and way too high for Norway Hamlet FC. Or Croatian Hole Utd.

and 'randaberg' can be 'filthy rich', but not a zillion dollars buys a large city with tens of thousands of youths on the streets playing soccer, therefore a good chance of producing a new cruyff or maradonna. youth setup should be related to population in the area, right?

lets say randaberg has '15'. cruzeiro from belo horizonte or boca juniors from b.aires (13M pop) should have like 300... or is my sense of realism impaired?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JontyBB8:

I watched three of the Andorran league videos on Youtube. Those matches are a very, very low standard indeed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>indeed. i'm sure i easily sign up as a midfielder there.

and that's my whole point. taking control of r.madrid and arranging a friendly there should result in 20+-0, no matter how early in the preseason, no matter what tactics, no matter how poor your reputation as a manager, right?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OrangeArrow:

However, do NOT underestimate the level of club facilities in Norway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i dont think ultra modern facilities is a guarantee for extremely good players.

your population is the key. and populairity of the football game. im absolutely convinced sides like atletico mineiro or river plate produce a lot more world class players than norwegian hamlets and towns. besides, what have norway won? ZERO. no euro cup, not even WC or EC final, let alone semi final. and 1 side that about dominates all: rosenborg. 0 international trophees. no wonder w/ a 5M population.

fm08 having this setup is about to produce as many maradonna's in norwegian hamlets as in brazilian metropoles, and boca juniors fighting to 1-2 in a 300 attendance 'stadium'.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">besides,

Norway's a very rich country and a football-crazy one, for that matters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>and a 5M population, about all players just being physically strong, no technical geniuses, ultra boring defensive tactics, etc.

name me 1 norwegian cruyff, pele, maradonna, beckham, etc.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There is huge investment in football, especially in grassroot levels. I know very well the training facilities of bigger clubs in Italy and England, and often Norwegian clubs - no matter their level - match them easily. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>that might be true.

but is that gonna bring one maradonna after the other from a 5M country?

think about brazil. fm08 generates as much talent in norway as in brazil. that sure is realistic, because norway is rich and has good facilities.

so Norway Hamlet FC may have the same training facilities as Napoli. But napoli's primavera sure is of a way higher level, cos napels has a 1M population. and napoli is by far the most popular club of southern italy - 3 times world champions, norway 0.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The fact that they play questionable football on top of those facilities is a different matter </div></BLOCKQUOTE>which can be addressed by just lowering the values...?

These are very objective conclusions. It would be very difficult to have %100 fair rating all around the database especially now that it is edited by 100+ people in the same time.

I think they are aiming for better each time and I believe best is to report these case by case without speculations and without generalization. I'm sure people in charge will try to include your suggestions as the time allows.

But after all you will never get a %100 accurate one (not sure if such could ever exist). You cant even have 5 guys out of 10 agree on C.Ronaldo stats, because terms "better" and "best" are objective in the world of football.

Well, I know it's not a Maradona or Cruyff, but I think Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is surely a huge player - at least he used to be! He came from Kristiansund, population 22k, and played from a crap team called Clausenengen

And in any case, my comment was merely about facilities, not about the talent. I agree that a country like Norway shouldn't produce as many stars as brazil, italy or germany.

think about players from Brazil! They have talent but almost none of them was raised in fancy youth facilities. Talent and skill is not directly attached to youth facilities. I live in Finland and I can say for sure; despite being a poor Football country and bad winter weather conditions, we still have quite good facilities for young players in lower leagues. Because clubs here focus on facilities and long-term investments rather than spending on transfer season.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hardwired:

and a 5M population, about all players just being physically strong, no technical geniuses, ultra boring defensive tactics, etc.

name me 1 norwegian cruyff, pele, maradonna, beckham, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Denmark has a population of 5.5 million and has produced the Laudrup brothers and Peter Schmeichel. Not to mention Gravesen who whilst not a world famous footballer was good enough to play for Real Madrid and, Jon Dahl Tomasson who played for AC Milan and Christian Poulsen who is attracting the attention of Barcelona and Real.

They also won the 1992 European Championships and reached the quarter finals of the 98 World Cup.

I don't think population has as big an impact as you suggest. Also their quality of local league football is quite limited with Bronby probably being the most famous of the clubs, yet they would be considered as level pairing with the likes of Rosenborg etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serdar:

These are very objective conclusions. It would be very difficult to have %100 fair rating all around the database especially now that it is edited by 100+ people in the same time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>thats very true and i agree completely.

but i still think there's a lot of errors which can be easily addressed by SI. i'm not expecting 100% realism. i just want things BETTER, esp. the ones that can be improved easily.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think they are aiming for better each time </div></BLOCKQUOTE>they probably succeed in that.

tho i must say the likes of cm97 were more realistic at hammering sorry amateurs.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">and I believe best is to report these case by case without speculations and without generalization. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i still feel confident i'm trying to issue a problem in a realistic matter with enough arguments. a problem that should be obvious to most of you out there aswell.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm sure people in charge will try to include your suggestions as the time allows. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>that would really be awesome. SI can double the price of FM09 if i hammer american samoan teams 25-0 as an unproven juventus manager using rubbish tactics.

the european cups, the premier leagues, SI: its pretty damn awesome. but please, do fix this obvious problem which shouldnt be too hard to fix. considering your budget <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But after all you will never get a %100 accurate one (not sure if such could ever exist). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i'd say thats impossible, yes.

doesnt mean there's room for improvement - easy improvement even.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You cant even have 5 guys out of 10 agree on C.Ronaldo stats, because terms "better" and "best" are objective in the world of football. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>true.

but im sure 99,99% of the footy fans out there will agree juventus, man utd or real madrid should hammer american samoan 'premier league' teams 25-0 on avg in preseason at 70% match fitness.

raise your hands if you agree.

post your screenshot if you can prove this is possible in fm08.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OrangeArrow:

Well, I know it's not a Maradona or Cruyff, but I think Ole Gunnar Solskjaer is surely a huge player - at least he used to be! He came from Kristiansund, population 22k, and played from a crap team called Clausenengen </div></BLOCKQUOTE>ruud gullit came from DWS i think. i know this is real life - its just utter nonsense to have norwegian or croatian hamlets produce about the same amount of talent as brazilian metropoles. which is about the case in fm08. this CAN be improved. this WOULD make fm09 a LOT better.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And in any case, my comment was merely about facilities, not about the talent. I agree that a country like Norway shouldn't produce as many stars as brazil, italy or germany. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>and that's exactly the point im trying to make.

and the reason i invest time in this is that i truly hope SI will notice this - and bring us improvement in this field aswell. making an awesome game EVEN BETTER.

The issue of not beating teams heavily enough is more approachable than the issue of countries ability to produce world beaters. It probably has something to do with the tough greyed teams that people have been talking about, but I thought that had been sorted in 8.0.2.

I agree to an extent, as FC Bayern I recently beat a 2nd division team in the cup 15-0, but they had plenty of players. I've never went over 7 against a greyed non league team. So as I say the issue may well be more to do with greyed teams than anything else.

One thing I would say is, that I can't remember the last time I saw a friendly score of 25-0 plus. I've watched Rangers beat Linfield 2-0 and Man Utd beat Omagh 9-0 but there has never been a 25-0 that I can remember and Northern irish league/facilities are pretty awful.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Serdar:

think about players from Brazil! They have talent but almost none of them was raised in fancy youth facilities. Talent and skill is not directly attached to youth facilities. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>how else is football manager gonna render talent? there's no such thing as a 'national generator' or something. or population size. none of that.

best thing is to give big sides from metropoles high youth ratings. in an attempt to give brazil the vast amount of sheer talent compared to norway.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I live in Finland and I can say for sure; despite being a poor Football country and bad winter weather conditions, we still have quite good facilities for young players in lower leagues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>true. i've read about that in footy mags and ive checked it in various ways on the 'net. but, maybe apart from litmanen, how many maradona's, beckhams, pele's, cruyff's, ronaldinhos from suomi? thats why i have lowered finnish stats drastically in my database. a 5K town w/ youth setup compared to cruzeiro just doesnt make any sense, no matter how high tech you finns are <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Because clubs here focus on facilities and long-term investments rather than spending on transfer season. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>there is no other way for them, is there?

let me know when MyPa buys the most promising Santos FC youth striker. or prove to me mypa generates as much youth talent as river plate c.f.

anyway, result of this setup seems to be that finnish towns produce vast amounts of talent. no offense, but i really dont think valkeakoski (? my finnish sucks ) generates as much talent as buenos aires. and i think i've addressed this before. "i dont think good youth facilities are a guarantee to sheer talent", but there's no other way in fm08. but rating mypa the same as cruzeiro gives finnish towns the same amount of talent as brazilian metropoles, right?

and we're still stuck with not being able to hammer american samoan or 2nd div luxembourg teams 20-0.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by hardwired:

how many maradona's, beckhams, pele's, cruyff's, ronaldinhos from suomi? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Off subject, but why have you included Beckham in that list of some of the World's best ever players? Yes he was very very good, but he wasn't good enough to be listed alongisde Maradona, Pele and Cruyff.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Denmark has a population of 5.5 million and has produced the Laudrup brothers and Peter Schmeichel. Not to mention Gravesen who whilst not a world famous footballer was good enough to play for Real Madrid and, Jon Dahl Tomasson who played for AC Milan and Christian Poulsen who is attracting the attention of Barcelona and Real.

They also won the 1992 European Championships and reached the quarter finals of the 98 World Cup. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>True.

but think about this

brazil - denmark, who are favourites?

brazil 'B' - denmark 'B', who are favourites?

brazil 'C' - denmark 'C', who are favourites?

brazil 'D' - denmark 'D', who are HEAVY favourites?

brazil 'E' - denmark 'E', who are UTTER favourites?

brazil can easily field 10 or even 20 different sides able to beat denmark 'A'. the lower down the line you go (A,B,C,D,E,F,G), the more likely brazil is to win, dont you agree?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't think population has as big an impact as you suggest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>i think so tho -

see the above. ofcourse denmark is able to field a class team once they're having a 'golden generation', which every small country is to have in time by chance. brazil can ALWAYS field a world class team - and even 10 of them.

the '10th national danish team' is gonna LOSE BIG TIME against the '10th brazilian national team'.

as a team only needs 11 players, the difference between the 'A' teams is gonna be a lot smaller than the difference between the 'G' teams, as the talent of the much smaller nation is gonna decline way more rapidly than the bigger nation, 11 claas player out of 5.5M isnt that much of a problem, and just a BIT LESS of a problem from a 130M nation - its only 11 players.

doesnt mean brazil has vast amounts of talent compared to denmark - something not quite visible in fm08.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also their quality of local league football is quite limited with Bronby probably being the most famous of the clubs, yet they would be considered as level pairing with the likes of Rosenborg etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>danish players usually have better vision and technique than norwegian players.

germans are very determined - shame this isnt incorporated in fm aswell.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Off subject, but why have you included Beckham in that list of some of the World's best ever players? Yes he was very very good, but he wasn't good enough to be listed alongisde Maradona, Pele and Cruyff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>lol

well just thought of a recent player that's famous and classy. you're right tho. maybe ronaldinho or that ass c.ronaldo would have been a better choice to make my point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">One thing I would say is, that I can't remember the last time I saw a friendly score of 25-0 plus. I've watched Rangers beat Linfield 2-0 and Man Utd beat Omagh 9-0 but there has never been a 25-0 that I can remember and Northern irish league/facilities are pretty awful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Check the american samoa national team. it's hideous. absolute amateurism. load fm08 and check their results. it's vastly unrealistic.

something else: im dutch. there's teams in fm08 that lost 22-0 to a dutch premier league side IRL. tho in fm08, 4 or 5-0 is pretty much a 'high' score.

again: SI should make the truly poor teams in the game a lot weaker. or just remove them - its kinda frustrating managing a premier league team and only seeing your team beating those utter crap teams 5-0 on avg.

Sorry Hardwired but i'm seriously starting to lose faith in your arguments here because you don't seem to take real life into account.

Have a look at this link about the 1998 world cup, who is it that beat Brazil?

France 98 Match Day 14

Also I don't know what game you are playing, but i've managed the German team Bayern Munich for 8 seasons and the squad status has always been very determined and all but one member of the German squad has determined or professional as a personality.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nomis07:

Sorry Hardwired but i'm seriously starting to lose faith in your arguments here because you don't seem to take real life into account. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>alright.

can you be more specific on where my reasoning fails?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have a look at this link about the 1998 world cup, who is it that beat Brazil? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>norway? well what a surprise.

counting the hits, ignoring the misses.

how many world cups qualifs for norway?

how many titles?

how many finals?

fifa rankings?

n.korea 1-0 italy? one result doesnt make me change my mind. just look at brazil's history and compare it to norway. even if norway has beaten brazil 7-0 once, brazil ofcourse has a lot more talent.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Also I don't know what game you are playing, but i've managed the German team Bayern Munich for 8 seasons and the squad status has always been very determined and all but one member of the German squad has determined or professional as a personality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>germans are way more determined than dutch players. thats why germany always wins. yet in the fm08 stats, there's no difference in average in dutch and german determination.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have a look at this link about the 1998 world cup, who is it that beat Brazil?

France 98 Match Day 14 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>who were already qualified?

who reached the final?

who got K.O.'d in the round of 16?

well?

Ok, now you're getting quite snooty and it's not very becoming.

My problem with your arguments is the examples you use, which frankly are poorly thought out.

In your post above you seem to infer that world cup titles, final appearances and fifa rankings should have an impact on the quality of player produced. That would be an entirely pathetic way for SI to decide on player ability, especially considering that Spain have never won a World Cup yet have produced some of the World's top talents in recent times.

As for Fifa rankings, I can only assume you were joking because if that any reasonable bearing on the game then the game would be an absolute fraud. Greece and the Czech republic are the 6th and 8th best teams in the world according to that table, yet produce only a handful of top class talent at a time.

Greece must also be considered a better footballing nation (and so produce more talents) than Spain, Portugal, Ghana, Ivory Coast, Russia and Turkey according to your logic.

population doesnt equal the ammount of talent produced, china? india? america? i cant think of many greats from those countries.

cups dont equal success either, just because a team has one a cup once a twice doesnt mean they wi always produce great talent, it means at that time theyhad a group of 20 or so players than did a good job over a two three week tournemant.