Cancelling a sub

Sorry if this has already been announced or even if it is in FM10 as the last FM I brought was 09, but does anyone know if you can cancel a sub as I had just gone to take one of my strikers off to bring on a holding midfielder to see the game I was 1-0 up in out. Then the obvious happens and they go and score before the sub has been made, so I was left with no strikers on the pitch, I think it would be a good idea if something like a goal or a red card happens before the change you have made takes effect, you should be given a choice to cancel or change the sub. I realise it may stop the flow of the game but no more so than when someone is injured or sent off.

Again sorry if this is already in FM10 or been announced for 11.

Nope, something needed imho.

good point, another problem is when you confirm a sub, and want to make another one shortly after, you can't make that sub until the 1st one occurs.

I agree with OP and ManUTactician247.

Grr that's a shame, it really is needed in the game I think. Good news though I ended up winning that game 2-1 scored from a corner with the last kick.

I agree with Fabio

I really think this should be implemented. I get so annoyed when an event such as red card or goal changes the whole face of the game in time you've been waiting for a sub to come on after confirming it!

I'd much prefer the old FM07 system, when you go to the team screen only when there's a break in play (not during).

Then you can take your time to make decisions.

I'd much prefer the old FM07 system, when you go to the team screen only when there's a break in play (not during).

Then you can take your time to make decisions.

...or you can just pause the game with this system.

...or you can just pause the game with this system.

That doesn't work, because things can happen once you restart. With FM07's system, as soon as you pressed space to restart the game, your changes were made.

They should definitely bring back the FM07 system.

That doesn't work, because things can happen once you restart. With FM07's system, as soon as you pressed space to restart the game, your changes were made.

They should definitely bring back the FM07 system.

But, it's an unrealistic system. Let's just hope the one from FM10 is improved for FM11.

Sorry if this has already been announced or even if it is in FM10 as the last FM I brought was 09, but does anyone know if you can cancel a sub as I had just gone to take one of my strikers off to bring on a holding midfielder to see the game I was 1-0 up in out. Then the obvious happens and they go and score before the sub has been made, so I was left with no strikers on the pitch, I think it would be a good idea if something like a goal or a red card happens before the change you have made takes effect, you should be given a choice to cancel or change the sub. I realise it may stop the flow of the game but no more so than when someone is injured or sent off.

Again sorry if this is already in FM10 or been announced for 11.

Good news I think, the FM base FM11 review shows a screenie that shows 2 subs being made and asks the question "do you wish to procede or cancel"

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/f109/fm2011-my-first-glimpse-t49009.html

(in the match views" section)

so hopefully that is that!

But, it's an unrealistic system. Let's just hope the one from FM10 is improved for FM11.

Why is it unrealistic? The two are basically the same, except one inconveniences the user, and the other doesn't.

I've seen (and contributed to) heaps of threads on the same issue. It's the ONE big annoyance for me.

It's frustrating when you've arranged your final sub, only to have a player pick up a knock before the sub comes on, but you have to go ahead with the original sub and risk a player getting badly injured and having to play with a handicap.

Or scoring or conceding a goal, the sub still occuring and you're team make up isn't right. (ie - you've scored what could be the winner but you still bring on another striker for a defender) If you're lucky to have another sub available then you've got to immediately make another change to fix it.

Or if you decide to substitute a striker who's proving to be ineffective. You arrange his substitution, but he scores before it happens. After scoring he is immediately replaced, even though his confidence would've been boosted by scoring.

What I believe should happen is that you click on tactics, the game waits until the ball goes out, you enter the tactics screen to make your changes, and they happen immediately.

I've never seen an official response from FM confirming whether this will be looked at so I don't think it'll be in FM11. However, I'd be delighted to be wrong.

But, it's an unrealistic system. Let's just hope the one from FM10 is improved for FM11.

The FM07 system is far more realistic than the FM08/FM09/FM10 system. You're currently not allowed to even know what the score will be when you make a sub! That's a huge problem. Can you imagine Sir Alex having to issue sub instructions 10 minutes in advance and then have to stick to it even though the score has changed?

It is the reason I stopped buying the new releases. So many times I'd watch my team go ultra-defensive to defend a lead that we no longer have.

Bring back the FM07 and prior method if you can't implement the ability to cancel pending subs.

It's very difficult to do anything like this due to the nature of the match engine and how things are calculated. I agree it's something that ideally would be in place, where you can instantly cancel subs if the player hasn't entered the field of play - but I'm afraid there haven't been any drastic changes in regards to this for FM11. It is certainly something we'll look into to try and get a more realistic approach. Thanks for taking the time to bring it up.

Neil - why did they change the set-up to implement what is effectively contractually advance subs? (See my post above) It's crazy. I was told on these forums by an SI person when I raised it after FM08 that it would be looked at, so I don't hold out much hope.

At least my FM07 game is getting a good use. FM08 and FM09 is in the bin. I never bought FM10 and won't be back for FM11 if the bug remains.

The FM07 system is far more realistic than the FM08/FM09/FM10 system. You're currently not allowed to even know what the score will be when you make a sub! That's a huge problem. Can you imagine Sir Alex having to issue sub instructions 10 minutes in advance and then have to stick to it even though the score has changed?

It is the reason I stopped buying the new releases. So many times I'd watch my team go ultra-defensive to defend a lead that we no longer have.

Bring back the FM07 and prior method if you can't implement the ability to cancel pending subs.

But in real life managers dont have to wait until the ball is out of play to change tactics/formation etc.....

I agree that there should be two different buttons though - 1 being Change Tactics, the other being Make Sub - the tactics can be changed whilst play continues and the sub button only kicks in when ball is dead (like 07)

on this subject, kind of...

when you go to make a sub and a tactical change, say to swap around the positions of the player coming on and a player staying on, it often switches the the player going off's position at the next break, but doesn't actually make the substitution until the break after that. does that make sense?

it often leaves players playing out of position for a few minutes, and if its an injured player can be quite disasterous.

i recall once having an injured DR, so i subbed on a DC and moved my DCR out to DR. this then swapped my injured DR into the middle for the following play and he stood stock still while the striker just waltzed past him...

It's very difficult to do anything like this due to the nature of the match engine and how things are calculated. I agree it's something that ideally would be in place, where you can instantly cancel subs if the player hasn't entered the field of play - but I'm afraid there haven't been any drastic changes in regards to this for FM11. It is certainly something we'll look into to try and get a more realistic approach. Thanks for taking the time to bring it up.

Dude, wait minute with all that realistic approach stuff, because it ain't working. Sure I want realistic transfers, AI management, AI tactic Management and all that, but you need to start thinking the fun and simplicity factor here. The fun is huge factor, because this is a computer "game", note on the word GAME. Which means it should be fun or people don't play it, or play for few weeks or months and goes to the bin (like some here has said here), unless that is what you're trying to do. It is my humble opinion that fun factor has been serious overlook since FM08.

Also if you are all about realistic approach here, then remove stats, tactic wizards, all the other wizards, all 3d views and put one from the dugouts, the 2D and all that, because in reality they don't exist.

This is computer game and should be treated as such, not a wannabe thing. If I want as realistic as possible, then I get the manager license and train a actual team.

The FM07 system is far more realistic than the FM08/FM09/FM10 system. You're currently not allowed to even know what the score will be when you make a sub! That's a huge problem. Can you imagine Sir Alex having to issue sub instructions 10 minutes in advance and then have to stick to it even though the score has changed?

It is the reason I stopped buying the new releases. So many times I'd watch my team go ultra-defensive to defend a lead that we no longer have.

Bring back the FM07 and prior method if you can't implement the ability to cancel pending subs.

I agree with you and Sciag. I have been also stating this for FM08 came out, but not in so many words.

But to be all fair what is the realistic part of the new system? None. Sure it is realistic because the game doesn't stop, but in game limits users to do the things mentioned here. While in reality I saw managers that where preparing to make certain substitution and the opposing team scoring goal and the Manager recalls the player and choose another to be in subs.

The Old system was much more realistic in this regard, because by stopping the game, the user could look at the stats, analyse them and make a decision upon that. To me the old system of subs, was more realistic, even if it stopped the match.

It's very difficult to do anything like this due to the nature of the match engine and how things are calculated. I agree it's something that ideally would be in place, where you can instantly cancel subs if the player hasn't entered the field of play - but I'm afraid there haven't been any drastic changes in regards to this for FM11. It is certainly something we'll look into to try and get a more realistic approach. Thanks for taking the time to bring it up.

Thats a shame, must have misread the screenie! :-(

Talking about the realism aspect, is there anyone who doesn't pause the game when they go to the sub screen anyway? After all, if it takes a couple of minutes to decide your sub, in game time 10 to 15 minutes have gone by.

Talking about the realism aspect, is there anyone who doesn't pause the game when they go to the sub screen anyway? After all, if it takes a couple of minutes to decide your sub, in game time 10 to 15 minutes have gone by.

I know who's on my bench and work out what sub i am going to make before i actually make it, so if its a straight swap i dont pause the game as i can be in and out of the tactics screen within seconds

It's very difficult to do anything like this due to the nature of the match engine and how things are calculated. I agree it's something that ideally would be in place, where you can instantly cancel subs if the player hasn't entered the field of play - but I'm afraid there haven't been any drastic changes in regards to this for FM11. It is certainly something we'll look into to try and get a more realistic approach. Thanks for taking the time to bring it up.

Cheers for the response, that's one of the things I love about SI unlike most other game companies and for giving me an answer.

I don't understand why it would be a huge problem to have a second confirmation prompt just before the sub is made, but I guess that's why I'm not a game designer. ;D

Cheers for the response, that's one of the things I love about SI unlike most other game companies and for giving me an answer.

I don't understand why it would be a huge problem to have a second confirmation prompt just before the sub is made, but I guess that's why I'm not a game designer. ;D

NO no no more prompts!

Neil has explained exactly why it is - and it is the best case scenario.

Why do you need another prompt? It would be really annoying after a while.

It's very difficult to do anything like this due to the nature of the match engine and how things are calculated. I agree it's something that ideally would be in place, where you can instantly cancel subs if the player hasn't entered the field of play - but I'm afraid there haven't been any drastic changes in regards to this for FM11. It is certainly something we'll look into to try and get a more realistic approach. Thanks for taking the time to bring it up.

I brought it up in my head years ago but do I get brownie points too

NO no no more prompts!

Neil has explained exactly why it is - and it is the best case scenario.

Why do you need another prompt? It would be really annoying after a while.

Nowhere near as annoying as going 5-4-1 with your last sub just after you've gone 1-0 down for the umpteenth time that season, but this time in a match you need a point from to stay in League One in your final game of the season, as you scream at your laptop that the sub request you made 5 minutes ago is the exact opposite of what you now need to do. That pretty much sums up the incident from which I decided FM09 was going in the bin.

Just had a quick play of the FM11 demo. The bug is there for the fourth consecutive release - subs are "contractually" locked in advance. If the score changes, the sub goes ahead without any opportunity to intervene. I just don't understand why they keep this bug in there.

Oh well. Time to wait for FM12 then. Back to FM07 or to check out the opposition if I want an updated game to play.

Its hardly a bug if it hasn't been implemented though is it?

I fully understand peoples desire to have an option to change your mind after confirming a substitution however and hope for it in a future version were a proper system, not a prompt before the sub is made, has been fully designed and fits into the game without ruining the momentum of the ME

It never used to be a problem in the game and was an accidental side effect* of changes to the match and tactics interface introduced for FM08. It's a part of the game that does not work how it should. If it's not a bug then it's a huge design flaw and that makes it even more incredible that resolving it has been ignored yet again.

*I assume it's an accident - if someone deliberately decided to implement this new (since FM08) rule that doesn't exist in real football, they should be shot. Perhaps SI has been infiltrated and FM is being sabotaged by rival programmers?!

As for ruining the momentum of the ME, nothing ruins the momentum more than a late defensive substitution when you've gone behind. You have two choices when it happens:

1 - exit without saving and re-play the match. This kills momentum and invariably feels like cheating, especially if you happen to win the re-play 2-0 when your restart is to try and fix not being able to play the last 10 minutes properly of a match you were losing 1-0 the first time round.

2 - accept the fact that the game made you "defend" a losing scoreline. This kills momentum because it feels like the game is cheating (notice how it never goes defensive when you've just scored?!) so you stop playing.

How is it ruining momentum to ask a football management simulation game to actually simulate a football match?

This is quite strange, I actually managed to cancel a sub on the demo...

Basically I had a sub arranged and then I got an injury that made me really want to change the last sub. I tried undoing it and it wasn't working but then I just hit cancel and it took me out of tv view and to overview screen and not able to hit play to carry on the match because I hadn't made the injury change and not able to go back to tactics the normal way because I had done my tactics change.

So I managed to find a drop down that put me back to the tactics page and low and behold I could undo the sub I had made so I told it to play. I still hadn't done the injury sub because it involved one of the players involved in the first sub so it didn't actually play but took me back to the overview.

I hit the play arrow and it thought about it a bit and then put me to the tactics screen like you get just after an injury occurs and I could make the change I wanted with the previously arranged sub cancelled completely.

Yeah, since FM08 only game-ending injuries and red cards override a sub request.

How about at least making it so that goals also allow you to override a sub request? That can't be that complex, given that the red card and injuries already trigger it, can it?

That's what I would have thought reli. If goals can be treated as serious enough to make pending sub requests obsolete, then the game becomes playable again.