I did not realize first team football was THAT significant....

The other day I decided to set up a fun little game for myself. Instead of managing a team I decided to make 3 players in the database, throw them at 3 different clubs, watch their careers and see how they progress.

I gave all the players 20 for flair, work-rate, determination, and professionalism just to make things interesting. I gave all 3 a CA of 50 and a PA of 200 so they at least they would have the chance to become something special. I let the game take care of pretty much everything else.

I also made them really young because I figured it would take a while for them to become anything significant seeing how their CA was so low to begin with. 2 were 12 years old at the start and the 3rd one was 8 (I based this on my little sister )

Player A (12 years old), I dropped at Chicago Fire. Player B (my 8 year old sister lol), I placed at chelsea (she loves chelsea). Player C (12 years old), I placed at Urawa Reds (from a custom j-league database).

Player A, surprisingly, immediately got first team opportunities and became a starter midway through the second season at chicago fire.

Player B has only played matches with the chelsea U-18s but has been tutored successfully by both Michael Essien and Frank Lampard respectively.

Player C has played matches with the Urawa Reds U-19s and has not been tutored. He did make it up to the first team in season 4 and has been starting since the end of season 4.

Now 5 seasons have passed and I am sorta surprised at the outcome.

After 5 seasons....player A's, now 17 years old, CA is 178.

Player B's, now 12 years old, CA is 128.

Player C's, also now 17 years old, CA is 146.

Honestly I knew that first team playing time is the most important aspect of youth development, but I didn't expect it to cause that much more of an increase in the player's CA.

Ironically, the player at the team with the best facilities saw the least amount of growth even though he was mentored by two of the best midfielders in the world.

Also, player C's CA was about 105 at the end of the season 4. I was really amazed that in the 1 season where he started a majority of Urawa's first team games, his CA pretty much increased by the same amount it had done during the previous 4 years he spent on the youth team.

At the end of the day, it has been an eye opener for me. Good facilities are always a plus but at the end of the day....your prospects are not gonna end up where you want them to unless you get them a lot of playing time.

I do think the level of competition they face is important but just getting them playing constantly really is a big deal.

Well its definitely changed how I will develop players in the future...and it means I'm gonna have to go and sell some players in my main save in order to allow my youngsters to get more much needed first team playing time....

You can also loan out your youth players so they get first team opportunities in a league that may be better suited for their current ability.

I've always done this but a lot of times, I haven't seen any really desirable results....its not like I have successfully developed a player before.

I've had a couple players develop a lot even though I didn't give them a lot of first team football...both real players and regens.

Toni Kroos became a beast for me and he played like 10 games for me in his first season.

I remember in 08 or 09 (can't remember) but back when I didn't know anything about youth development and didn't really care much about it because I never played a save more 2 or 3 season on a save.....I had a 16 year CB turn into a world class CB by 18 without any first team experience...so obviously I thought I was doing something right lol

So, your sister, Player B, was available to be selected at that age, for the youth team? I always though they only came up at 14/15.

Anyway, a CA of 128 at 12 isn't half bad, since the lad will have 10 years plus of potential growth.

Any further updates?

Wait, so Player A was playing for Chicago fire when he was 12!?

If I remember correctly, if a player is set as being too young, then their in-game age is set as 16, but they remain 16 for as many years as it would take for their actual age to catch up. So if player A was set as being 12, in the game, they would start 16 years old, and stay 16 for four years before the ageing begins properly.

If I remember correctly, if a player is set as being too young, then their in-game age is set as 16, but they remain 16 for as many years as it would take for their actual age to catch up. So if player A was set as being 12, in the game, they would start 16 years old, and stay 16 for four years before the ageing begins properly.

You're right, except I think it's 14, not 16 - Brazil produces a lot of 14 year old youth players.

Thanks Dekker I'm terrible with remembering details.

Thanks, and no wonder he became so good if he didn't age for four years while playing in the first team!

I wouldn't get too excited to be honest. I appreciate the fact you took time to do the research, but in order to draw any undeniable conclusions you'd probably have to do the same thing with different players at least a couple of times, just to make sure there were no external factors affecting their development (eg. morale, coaching team, reserve or youth team appearances etc).

I've seen a number of players with high PA, who just sat in the reserves for years and got better and better.

On the other hand, I had several players (like Felix Kroos, who has always been a disappointment for me), who got plenty of first team football and never really became good enough to be first team regulars.

What Id like to know is it better to send a 16 or 17 year old off on loan to a club with average facilities so he makes the 1st team or to keep him in the reserves with world class training facilities.

What Id like to know is it better to send a 16 or 17 year old off on loan to a club with average facilities so he makes the 1st team or to keep him in the reserves with world class training facilities.

Can't really say definitively but if you gave the youngster a few games for your first team i'd think keeping them around would be better, but on the other hand if the loan deal was successful (i.e. player performed well and played constantly) then that may be much better.

I've usually tried to use loan deals to develop youngsters but you do have to pick carefully.

For some reason when I loan players, they arent usually played even though theyre clearly the best player in the squad, they usually come back saying theyd have preferred to stay so now Ill just keep them and play them sparingly.

shock horror! playing 1st team football games improves players. whatever next

shock horror! playing 1st team football games improves players. whatever next

missing the point?

Thanks for sharing. I think we all knew that playing time is important for players to develop but I actually didn't know that 1st team experience seems to be so much more important and helps a player to develop better than playing in the Reserve team with excellent facilities and mentors. Of course you should mentor your youth players before you can loan them out. The only matter with loaning out is that there is no guarantee your players will play. I'd like to see a loan option 'has to play 50%' of all matches or something similar

I'd expect some variation in that some players would develop better with more first team football, some getting tutored in the reserves. If one system guaranteed better development then nuturing youth would become a very dull process.

Great post. Definitely going to change the way I think about developing my youngsters

Interesting, yes, but an analysis of 3 players is too small a sample to draw any conclusions from.

I wouldn't get too excited to be honest. I appreciate the fact you took time to do the research, but in order to draw any undeniable conclusions you'd probably have to do the same thing with different players at least a couple of times, just to make sure there were no external factors affecting their development (eg. morale, coaching team, reserve or youth team appearances etc).

I've seen a number of players with high PA, who just sat in the reserves for years and got better and better.

On the other hand, I had several players (like Felix Kroos, who has always been a disappointment for me), who got plenty of first team football and never really became good enough to be first team regulars.

I've always done this but a lot of times, I haven't seen any really desirable results....its not like I have successfully developed a player before.

I've had a couple players develop a lot even though I didn't give them a lot of first team football...both real players and regens.

Toni Kroos became a beast for me and he played like 10 games for me in his first season.

I remember in 08 or 09 (can't remember) but back when I didn't know anything about youth development and didn't really care much about it because I never played a save more 2 or 3 season on a save.....I had a 16 year CB turn into a world class CB by 18 without any first team experience...so obviously I thought I was doing something right lol

I know. I already said that

It definitely sucks when you have a player who is constantly playing first team football but just refuses to improve.

It wasn't even meant to be research lol......just a little fun.

shock horror! playing 1st team football games improves players. whatever next

Thanks for the input

I'd expect some variation in that some players would develop better with more first team football, some getting tutored in the reserves. If one system guaranteed better development then nuturing youth would become a very dull process.

I'm sure that is the case. Like I said earlier, I've had players develop by just sitting in the reserves and/or being tutored. But a little extra first team experience never hurt anyone

Interesting, yes, but an analysis of 3 players is too small a sample to draw any conclusions from.

I gave all the players 20 for flair, work-rate, determination, and professionalism just to make things interesting. I gave all 3 a CA of 50 and a PA of 200 so they at least they would have the chance to become something special. I let the game take care of pretty much everything else.

From what I've read work-rate, determination, and professionalism are needed for a player to reach his PA or at least get close. This is why I gave 20 for each of these. I gave them 20 for flair just to make things interesting lol

I wanted them to all end up world class hence the PA of 200....I just wanted to see how long it would take each of them.

Yes 3 players is a very small sample set but I was still intrigued by what happened.

Player A had the most first team football and by far had the highest CA (178) and even though player B was at chelsea and had been tutored by 2 of the world's best mids, he only had a CA of 128. The biggest difference was evident with player C at urawa reds. He spent his first 4 seasons in the U-19s and in those 4 years his CA went from 50 to 105. And then after he became a starter with the senior side, at the end of season 4, and then starting a majority of the matches in season 5 his CA went from 105 to 146 and that was pretty astounding.

A lot could have changed in that year...heck, a lot could have changed any of the 5 years. But from what I saw, first team football can have a really astounding effect on youngsters.

Maybe the effect of first team football on a youngster is dependent on the player's mental/hidden attributes?

Maybe age has an effect on how much a really young player develops?

Because even though player B's CA is about 50 less than Player A's, player B is 5 years younger than player A.

Who knows how good player B will be when he is 17...

What Id like to know is it better to send a 16 or 17 year old off on loan to a club with average facilities so he makes the 1st team or to keep him in the reserves with world class training facilities.

Lately I have been sending them out for 2 months, especially if the the lower club has come to me. They will invariably want an extension. After 2 months I have an idea of what's happening, how much he'll play etc.

I've found it's pretty subjective. I've used Arsenal twice, and both times handled Nacer Barazite's development differently.

Once, I loaned him to Crystal Palace where he played most of the season in their first team and did well, but came back with 2 star PA.

Another time, I left him in the reserves and had Rosicky tutor him and he ended up with 3 star CA within 5 years and was a first team regular.

Thanks for sharing. I think we all knew that playing time is important for players to develop but I actually didn't know that 1st team experience seems to be so much more important and helps a player to develop better than playing in the Reserve team with excellent facilities and mentors. Of course you should mentor your youth players before you can loan them out. The only matter with loaning out is that there is no guarantee your players will play. I'd like to see a loan option 'has to play 50%' of all matches or something similar

If you use the offer to clubs function for loans then when the teams that want to loan them come back they will state wether he will be a valuable memeber of the 1st team (regular starter) or cover for the 1st team. i usualy use this method and only accept loans where the player will be a valuable 1st team member. You can also tak it a step further and see what teams of those left have the best facilities and only accept them.

Can be a bit ime consuming but at least you know he is getting 1st team football and a a decent level of training.

I hope on FM11 there is actually an option when you offer players to other clubs on loan that you can state you will only accept offers where the player willl be getting regular 1st team football.

This is why squad composition is so important, if you're playing a long career game. I like to make my 1st team squad consist of one third experienced players (30+), one third players in their prime (24-29) and one third young talent (-23) and then make sure that everybody see a reasonable amount of action. This way (after a couple of seasons) I end up without ever having to make expensive transfers again. You just need to bring in talents to supplement your own academys production and watch your bank account grow fat.

Reckon yoo've got yourself a project for FM11, aderow!

Reckon yoo've got yourself a project for FM11, aderow!

lol I'm still debating whether or not to buy FM 11

It would be a lot better to have them all start at the same age in order to get accurate results... The player B might only be a lot less CA after the 5 seasons because he started and remains younger than the rest of them.

Thanks for sharing. I think we all knew that playing time is important for players to develop but I actually didn't know that 1st team experience seems to be so much more important and helps a player to develop better than playing in the Reserve team with excellent facilities and mentors. Of course you should mentor your youth players before you can loan them out. The only matter with loaning out is that there is no guarantee your players will play. I'd like to see a loan option 'has to play 50%' of all matches or something similar

I agree 100%...

I mean, there should be at least an option to ask the club how much would our player play in that club and you could negotiate or give them certain bonuses for his games. Your idea could lead to some utter rubbish players playing in the Championship, but it would still be an improvement. The way it is, I loan my players to League 2 clubs (from Liverpool) and they warm the bench for the majority of the games.

It would be a lot better to have them all start at the same age in order to get accurate results... The player B might only be a lot less CA after the 5 seasons because he started and remains younger than the rest of them.

Thats what I was thinking...