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FM secrets for FM experts - Player development and tutoring


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I decided to write about the "exploits" I discovered mainly because I feel the level of the community knowledge is not good enough - when I'm interested in something very specific, I most likely won't find a good answer here (nor anywhere else, but this is the place that matters). So, let's share some secrets in hope to expand the common knowledge. Disclaimer: the things I write about are only for the "expert players" (not beginners - they probably won't understand much of this), and are valid with the latest FM 2010 patch (10.3) - I hope the good SI people won't change them in 2011, although I'd appreciate a little less random involved.

1) It's possible for one player to tutor more than one youngster. You need to go to interaction screen of every youngster, select the (same) tutor and conversation (... can learn from...), and then simply go back (do not cancel changes!). When you go through every wanted youngster, start hitting "Confirm". After the first one, the dialog option and linked player disappear, but the "Confirm" button is still ready to be pressed in every interaction, leading you to the wanted message. I had as many players as I wanted being tutored by the same player, but I found out that I prefer to have one man tutoring 2-3 kids. Why? Well, in my experience, during the daily update (we'll get to it) one tutor can simultaneously teach only one youngster, so the more you teach, the more they'll divide the knowledge. But as every update have a lot of random in it, you can very successfully tutor at least 2-3 youngsters by the same player.

2) What if the youngsters don't accept the proposal to learn from the tutor you selected? Well, load back, you can still try some measures with them. One of the most important skills for accepting to learn is Determination, and it should be close enough between the players. Other mental traits (described in one word by "personality") also play important part, but you can't see or change these "by hand" (tutors can, but we're trying to get them to learn, right :)). I usually need to get the youngster to determination 15 ("fairly determined") in order for him to accept to learn from the model pro with determination 20. How? Well, that's when the "bad days" come in handy. You can play a friendly with stronger opposition, or play the lad out of the position (you name it - there are a lot of ways to get him under 6.4 rating). When he finally plays badly, you go to interaction, and discipline player for poor performance (sometimes it will be there even with 6.4 rating, but usually it have to be lower than that). Then, save as some temporary file (in case things go wrong), and let the time pass. If he feels mistreated, load the temporary save (where you already issued your warning), and continue again. There is a (big!) element of random in the player's response, and you can usually get him to apologize for his poor performance if you try hard enough! Be warned, though - the lower the professionalism, less likely he's gonna accept the warning without trouble (one of the many reasons to avoid unprofessional players, but you need to use FM Genie Scout if you want to check this stat for sure). When he apologizes, his determination or work rate (or both - random again ;)) go up by 1. This works with older players as well. The simple warning is enough until the det/work 16, later you need to fine him 1 week wages instead. But, if the youngster won't accept the tutoring when at determination 16, usually he's not worth to be tutored at all, as he's too far away from your "role model" - sell him, and find a more agreeable future star.

2a) The most crazy part: you can use one bad reserve/U18 game for even more that one punishment! How? Simple: call up in the senior squad at least one of victim's teammates that played well and let him play the next senior game (it's enough to bring him in as substitute). And 7 days after the first warning, voila - the discipline option is there again for the victim! :) This can, however, at best be done 3 times per match - it seems there is some additional check which removes the discipline option if the player played his last match more than 15 days ago. It's important not to have the next reserve/U18 game meanwhile, so this works best with "inter-squad" (reserve - U18) friendlies at preseason, or while out of the reserve/U18 leagues.

3) What if you don't have the option to offer tutoring at all? That can mean 2 things: a) Either the youngster have some important role in the club (ideal for further learning is "youngster" or "hot prospect", but some reputable future stars or older players I had to degrade to as much as "not needed" - usually, though, it's enough to have the tutor at the same or higher level of importance for the club), or b) the "future star" have already too big reputation (in this case, I don't think there's anything you can do - I never tried to let them rot for a season or so in reserves, but I have the idea that this might help; anyway, what's the point of slowing their development if you want to quicken it in the first place?).

4) OK, so he finally accepts... what if the learning go badly? Well... The message that he stopped learning because of the "personality difference" is only a stupid random event - I had it appear near the end of the tutoring for, at that time, completely the same personalities (mental traits + determination) and all preferred moves already learned. If this happens, simply reload the game, as this tends to make trouble further down the line for these player's relationship. The second part is for fanatics only, so skip the rest of this paragraph... Still here? Skip it, you'll like the game better if you don't know this... :) And still here? OK, then... When the game goes through 24-hour or longer period in one "Continue", that's the time when the learning from tutor can occur. It usually occurs in the morning (until 10:15, but not sure that it can't also happen later), so it doesn't need to be 24-hour period, but a full day is always a guarantee. And it's random - learning may, or it may not happen. That's when we come to the "fanaticism" part - you can, of course, make the game "update" at least one of your player almost every day, but it demands that you know them. You need to compare the save "before" and temporary save "after" the continuation. Some things are easy to spot - you'll hardly miss a new preferred move or determination increase of your future stars. Other things need the Genie Scout for investigation - for me, some mental traits are as important as the moves (like professionalism and ambition, which are important for progress, and say pressure). One tutor can, in my experience, teach only one of his students daily. There are some (very lucky) times when you'll notice that a few tutors were active in a single day, but it's usually "one or none" situation - I have a simple rule, when trying to maximize learning, that I want one player updated daily (it's still very much of a save-reload-check grind, so asking for more would completely spoil the fun).

5) Progress rate. This thing is not strictly related to tutoring, but to every player's development - I found out that the learning is not random at all. Or, shall I say "the learning chance" is not random. In one day, some of your players have a chance for further development (and it's only one chance per player per month - if you're careful enough, you could make yourself the calendar with dates when you expect each of your players to progress). When you spot some attributes increase/decrease, you can reload and pinpoint the exact day when it happens. This is not random - it may, or it may not happen only that day of that month (while training, personality, matches... only raises this chance). What is random, in most part, is what exactly will happen that day: with enough retries, you can surely make something happen, and even turn some "ugly red drops" into "spectacular green ups"; it's not completely random, but the chunk of the potential ability that is being converted into current ability varies, and when big enough it can offset even some of the thing that are meant to happen (remember the "fine-me" way to raise the work rate? Well, that's one thing that often leads to red drops, as players seems to have some "skill limits", but a big enough rise in current ability can compensate those and turn it into some blistering improvements, as this disciplinary measures also seem to stimulate further development).

Well, I think it's enough from one person - If you liked this and found it useful, I would like to hear it from you, and I would like even more to hear about some additional secrets that you discovered, or some corrections to the things I wrote. That's the point of this post, after all - sharing the knowledge. Thanks for reading.

Edit: some corrections of introductory wording, to avoid misunderstanding

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...I feel the level of the community knowledge is not good enough - when I'm interested in something, I most likely won't find a good answer here.

Thanks for the introduction. I'm sure you'll make plenty of friends here.

There are a number of very knowledgeable posters on these forums and I suggest you start reading and follow what they have to say. Some are very football-savvy, some are well versed in the ME and tactical system, and others are great experimenters/researchers within the game. There's a lot of drivel and un-substantiated opinion on here, yes, but you won't find a forum that doesn't have that. Once you actually spend some time reading these forums, you should be able to identify those who should be listened to carefully.

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as im sure you will realise, you will not get any sort of positive response when you start a thread by telling people they are not knowledgable enough for you and that they can never answer any questions.

You need to realise this is the GD forum, there is a whole seperate forum for bugs and exploits, i think you should look in there for this kind of information

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Not going to read all of that now as it's too late, but I did notice your opening sentence. This is a very large forum with a lot of users and you aren't going to find the specific type you are looking for easily. Different kinds of people come on here all wanting different questions answered. The thing is the kind of person they are looking for may not be on at the moment. The type of community knowledge you are looking for may not be known by the current online users. Though I can assure you now that out of all the users on here someone will be able to answer your questions

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Thanks for the introduction. I'm sure you'll make plenty of friends here.

There are a number of very knowledgeable posters on these forums and I suggest you start reading and follow what they have to say. Some are very football-savvy, some are well versed in the ME and tactical system, and others are great experimenters/researchers within the game. There's a lot of drivel and un-substantiated opinion on here, yes, but you won't find a forum that doesn't have that. Once you actually spend some time reading these forums, you should be able to identify those who should be listened to carefully.

OK, I should apologize, obviously, as I didn't mean to offend anyone. What I meant was that I don't post or read these forums very often without some specific reason (obviously - look at my post count), but I do search google a lot (and I mean a lot) of times looking for some very specific answers. And more often then not, I don't found them at all. Not on the first page, not on the second page, not on the last one. When I do found the answers, they are here, of course - there is no place with bigger FM knowledge base that this forum. But, for me, it's still not enough - if I can't find everything that I want to know, it can't be enough.

Again - I apologize if I offended anyone, I'm not suggesting anything about anyone's level of knowledge. And I'm not here to make friends - I'm here to gain some more knowledge about my favourite game, and maybe share some of my own. ;)

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I'm not going to comment on your appreciation of the community's knowledge. All I can say is that during this year I have learned more about FM that in the previous 7 years I've been playing it, and that is 99% because of this forum. I didn't necessarily find answers, but I did find lots of discussion threads and drew my own conclusions. I think that's the best way to learn the secrets of FM.

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Though I can assure you now that out of all the users on here someone will be able to answer your questions

Sure. A found some of the very specific stuff exactly here (say, attribute weighting table), but I don't exactly go around asking questions - it would be a blow for my ego, as I play FM at least few hours daily for a veeery long time (since CM 95 and CM 97/98 - not skipping any version). As I said, I prefer to search quietly, so don't scare me away now that I finally decided to share something. Don't get confused with my low post count, and don't bash me with a stick - I'm not here to make fight. Really. :)

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i dont see how you can say you cant find answers when you said yourself you dont ask questions, your really not painting a very good picture by stating your ego is so big you cant ask questions. You have pretty much killed what would have been a decent post/thread by your negative views towards the community and i dont think people will be too inclined to offer help in the future to you

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You have pretty much killed what would have been a decent post/thread by your negative views towards the community...

Now we're getting somewhere. :) Thanks for the decent middle words. You don't really need to like me, as that's not the point - I'm some anonymous guy from who-knows-where, probably much older than you, not looking to make new friends, and it all really doesn't matter. Let's stay on topic - I would like to know if any of my points are incorrect, and how? I would also like to know if there's more? It's not about helping me, really - it's about sharing the "hard-to-find" things with the community. I shared the things that were hardest for me to find, and I'm eager to hear more. Is there more? Do you know something on this topic? Would you like to share it? Please? :)

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I agree with early comments, forum is a place where people interact , discuss and exchange opinions freely. By offending the community you break the vital point of the forums. After that any opinion, information given by you will be ignored o just not given the importance expected

Regarding your post, i think you should address some of the points given in the bugs forum. In the same way i saw that you reloaded in order to prove your theory. In my opinion , the randomness of the game makes every save unique and thats what attract all the forum community.

I didnt know about the minimun determination skill in order to accept tutoring, thats something i will check later and double check on FM2011, thanks for that :)

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I think theres some pretty detailed experiments in the tactics forum about tutoring. The forum does have a few preconceived ideas about tutoring that are wrong.

Your points involve a lot of reloading or using Genie Scout, which seems a lot of work for not much gain. If you're going to reload to do these things, you may as well use FMRTE to just pretend that the tutoring has been successful and change the attributes manually.

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I think theres some pretty detailed experiments in the tactics forum about tutoring. The forum does have a few preconceived ideas about tutoring that are wrong.

Your points involve a lot of reloading or using Genie Scout, which seems a lot of work for not much gain. If you're going to reload to do these things, you may as well use FMRTE to just pretend that the tutoring has been successful and change the attributes manually.

+1 or, one could just play the game as it was intended. :D

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What I meant was that I don't post or read these forums very often without some specific reason (obviously - look at my post count), but I do search google a lot (and I mean a lot) of times looking for some very specific answers.

Fair play. I don't think I'm alone in being frustrated with this site's search function, it is still sometimes hard to find exactly what I'm looking for. I think that's the case with public forums, too, as conversation often wanders even within a single thread. That being so, what I said about finding some contributors that regularly produce good discussion is even that much more important. People like Crouchaldinho, SFraser, Heathxxx, wwfan, and others are good names to watch for... not saying those are the only ones I like, just some examples!

Regarding this post, perhaps you should make different threads about these different topics you've addressed, as it's easier to search for by topic name, instead of a general or generic name. Too many issues in one thead often makes for a very unfocused discussion. And bugs - yes, check out the bugs forum for reporting and discussing such things.

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haha

hilarious OP

the implication that 'experts' save and reload the game over and over if things dont go their way is side splitting stuff

some of the measures suggested really makes you wonder

thanks for the chuckle though

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I read the first paragraph then all I saw was blah, ego, blah, ego, blah,ego. blah.

You really don't have a clue, do you? Like a player that 'shoots with power' from the middle of the park, thinking it's best for his team. Well, can't say I didn't warn you in the opening that you won't understand much of this. :)

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This thread is based on bugs and exploits. This should not be common knowledge. Makes the game looks stale.

You're right - some of these things looks more like bugs then features, and maybe they shouldn't be a common knowledge. Still, it's useful to know that you can improve some of the most important player attributes "by hand", it's useful to know that you can actually influence the chances of a youngster accepting tutoring form your favorite star, and there's no harm in knowing that your players can progress only once a month.

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give him some slack, will you. guy spent a lot of time to find out something that might, or might not, be useful for you but he did make some points. besides he already apologized for misunderstanding. personally i don't reload or do same thing but it's interesting to know how things work. my advice would just be to post it in some subforum where topic would be more apropriate.

Thanks for the kind words, mate. Knowing how things work is exactly what motivates me to still play this game after 15 years - having led most of the teams to all of the titles, there's not much challenges left. Some people keeps repeating that I'm suggesting some way of playing the game, reloading when it goes badly, etc... it's simply not the point - this tread is only about how things work. This is not the real life, but the game with it's own rules, and I want to know them. For example, in real life I would be talking to the player that played badly until he finally gets the message; here it's just a simple coin toss how he'll react, so I wanted to know what does it depend on (professionalism mostly). I know not many people are interested in the stuff like this, bus some may found it useful, and that's why I decided to share it.

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You really don't have a clue, do you? Like a player that 'shoots with power' from the middle of the park, thinking it's best for his team. Well, can't say I didn't warn you in the opening that you won't understand much of this. :)

Dude, I've been playing this game since it's very first inception as Championship Manager Italia back in 1993, so don't patronise me or tell me I don't have a clue! If you think you are an 'expert' because you found out the 'mystery' of save and reload,' rinse and repeat', and also managed to find some bugs and exploits, then bully for you, you're an 'expert'. Me personally, I like to play the game the way it was made to play.

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Riki:

Whether your points are good or bad, is irrelevant - you just come off as sounding really smug.

I would have posted around a bit first before creating a thread like this.

Nobody likes to be told that their FM knowledge is below-par by some guy they've never seen or heard from before.

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You know there are many exploits possible using genie or by reloading the game.... I simply don't see the point, and I wouldn't call them "exploits" too. Possibly the reason why you haven't seen such "exploits" discussed about here :).

Tbh I don't see the point why you reload. Why don't you simply use FMRTE to set the attributes you want for your players ? It will make your life much easier for exactly the same result :)

Edit : as said by Pob

Now we're getting somewhere. :) Thanks for the decent middle words. You don't really need to like me, as that's not the point - I'm some anonymous guy from who-knows-where, probably much older than you, not looking to make new friends, and it all really doesn't matter. Let's stay on topic - I would like to know if any of my points are incorrect, and how? I would also like to know if there's more? It's not about helping me, really - it's about sharing the "hard-to-find" things with the community. I shared the things that were hardest for me to find, and I'm eager to hear more. Is there more? Do you know something on this topic? Would you like to share it? Please? :)

In first place you didn't need to judge the community here. By doing so you called for judgement about yourself back. The topic includes judgement made by yourself so answering them is still on topic. You ve edited it once, you could have done so twice, but you chose not to. So blame yourself only for such replies now.

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Most misleading thread title ever?

Surely it should read: How save/reloading can help you be better!

The smuggest, most egotistical and patronising OP ever.

You try to justify your cheating by saying you want to find out how things work, which is fair enough, if you presented it that way. Say you had done the research through save/loading and give your advice on how to achieve these results without having to cheat. that would have made for a better thread, even more so if you hadn't lambasted the wwhole community in the OP.

Nice ;)

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What I dont understand is the bit where you say you cant find the info you want or the answers you want on this forum/community. Most of this OP is about Player Development/Tutoring and Training. Maybe this would be better being posted in the aptly named 'Tactics & Training Tips' sub-forum. Things will be hard to find if they are posted in the wrong section in the first place wont they.

Just a thought :thup:

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Riki:

Whether your points are good or bad, is irrelevant - you just come off as sounding really smug.

I would have posted around a bit first before creating a thread like this.

Nobody likes to be told that their FM knowledge is below-par by some guy they've never seen or heard from before.

couldnt have put it better my self mate

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This is one of the best threads ever out here, it has 2 very important messages in it:

1. FM has too much RANDOM things happening in it without any explanation/reason...

2. People who are interested in advanced FM knowledge can NOT get it here, because of the game's randomness nobody has that knowledge, because it doesn't exist... ridiculous but true, allmost everything in FM is just soooo freaking random...

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This is one of the best threads ever out here, it has 2 very important messages in it:

1. FM has too much RANDOM things happening in it without any explanation/reason...

2. People who are interested in advanced FM knowledge can NOT get it here, because of the game's randomness nobody has that knowledge, because it doesn't exist... ridiculous but true, everything in FM just soooo freaking random...

Nonsense. His results are not random, you just need to find the key to each thing happening. Whether its personality or attribute driven there is always a reason.

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Try this and see yourself how ridiculous FM sometimes is:

Superb coaches with 5* with a very low hidden attribute hardness of training VS bad coaches with very high hardness of training

your players will develop much much better with those "bad" coaches, thanks to the very high hidden attribute, which is totally random for all staff in the game...

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Try this and see yourself how ridiculous FM sometimes is:

Superb coaches with 5* with a very low hidden attribute hardness of training VS bad coaches with very high hardness of training

your players will develop much much better with those "bad" coaches, thanks to the very high hidden attribute, which is totally random for all staff in the game...

Those numbers are not random once you have started a save though, so through trial and error you could find the right one. I understand where you are coming from but I think you and the OP would like to know everything before you start a save (hence his use of GenieCheat or whatever its called) and not have the fun/challenge of finding things out.

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Try this and see yourself how ridiculous FM sometimes is:

Superb coaches with 5* with a very low hidden attribute hardness of training VS bad coaches with very high hardness of training

your players will develop much much better with those "bad" coaches, thanks to the very high hidden attribute, which is totally random for all staff in the game...

Its common knowledge that a coaches abilities & star ratings have very little to do with player growth.

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As for the OP I appreciate the effort he has put in to understand the game but the way he has presented it leaves a lot to be desired.

There is a total lack of backup information to show how he reached his conclusions while he presumes that no-one else has ever done any work in the same area when in fact there are several much more detailed threads in the forum.

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As for the OP I appreciate the effort he has put in to understand the game but the way he has presented it leaves a lot to be desired.

There is a total lack of backup information to show how he reached his conclusions while he presumes that no-one else has ever done any work in the same area when in fact there are several much more detailed threads in the forum.

Agreed. Complete fail for OP :D

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Try this and see yourself how ridiculous FM sometimes is:

Superb coaches with 5* with a very low hidden attribute hardness of training VS bad coaches with very high hardness of training

your players will develop much much better with those "bad" coaches, thanks to the very high hidden attribute, which is totally random for all staff in the game...

Thank, mate, these are the secrets I want to know about. I already knew that "hardness" is important, but I never suspected it's that much important (say, more important then anything else on a coach). Will give it a try in a future.

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And one more thing from me, not yet fully tested, but logical enough to be mentioned: the "potential player development" days goes only from 1-28. day of each month, while 29-31. are the "free dates" (no player can develop further during those dates). I suspect it's because of the february - development dates for all players have to fit into all months, so nothing can happen after 28th.

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Your entire methodology is based upon having multiple saves and going back on them until you get the result you want.

I call that cheating. Good job.

Indeed, different people have different priorities when they run Football Manager, obviously.

I play so that I can roleplay a manager. I want to experience simulations of the challenges, the heartaches, and the triumphs, that a real manager might have.

Doing well - and taking a club to unforeseen heights - is of course a lure for me, but I want to do it properly. Not by using trainers, save reloading, or bug exploits to get around the challenges the game throws at you. As soon as you do that, for me at least, the point is gone.

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