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isuckatfm
17-01-2008, 10:30
A lot of people when dissecting the "look at how many shots I had and I still couldn't score" threads state that tempo if set too quick results in strikers hitting shots too early or not taking an extra touch. In my opinion if this is true then something in the match engine should be changed.

My argument against tempo affecting players in and around the box is that in real life football is it does not matter what the tactical set up is once the chance has been created.

- in a one on one a player's ability/morale/condition versus the goalkeeper's ability/morale/condition plus a little bit of luck will determine whether or not a one on one chance is converted. Also the one on one chances of success will be affected by the angle at which the one on one is reached. The tempo the team is playing at should be an irrelevant factor.

- if a player breaks free of the last defender whether or not he shoots early or continues into the available space towards the goal is going to be determined by his own mental attributes plus how quickly the opposition defenders close him down (does he feel the opposition defender breathing down his neck and if so how does he respond), as well as how the opposition goalkeeper behaves (how quickly he comes off his line to narrow the angle). In real life I don't see a player thinking "the gaffer told us to play at a fast tempo so I better let one fly" even though there is nothing but fresh air between him and the goal.

- if a winger gets in behind the opposition full back, and onto a cross in a goal scoring opportunity, whether or not he hits it first time or takes the extra touch will depend on how much space he has and his own mental attributes. In real life his mental stats will determine what he decides to do next based on the scenario at hand. As with the striker in the above example the overall tempo of the play that led to the chance will have no bearing on what he decides to do.

- if a striker makes a run to pull away from the defender and receives the ball in space with room to move into in order to reduce the distance to goal or improve the shooting angle, then his mental attributes will determine whether or not he chooses to do this. Again I don't believe the tempo the team plays at has any influence on what he decides to do. It should not make him snatch at a shot.

In my experience of playing the game if a top class Premiership side and a Conference South side are set up identically using the in game slider system, then in all of the above scenarios the players seem to behave in a similar manner (this is based on playing the game rather then any in depth statistical analysis so if you have experienced it differently feel free to post your thoughts on the inaccuracy of this statement). So essentially one of the key elements that differentiates the quality players from the average players is lost.

As an illustrative example consider a player in each of the scenarios above who has the maximum mental attributes. In my opinion the two key attributes in these scenarios based on the FM attribute model are composure and decisions. If a player has 20 for both then regardless of the team's tactical settings these attributes, in conjunction with his belief in his own ability i.e. morale, should determine what he chooses to do next in the majority of occasions he finds himself in those situations (of course a random element should be introduced to avoid it becoming overly repetitive and predictable). Whether or not he successfully does as he intended will depend on his technical attributes.

Do you believe this 'tempo effect' should be removed?

If players are aware of where they are on the pitch is it possible to remove the tempo setting from a player's decision in the above scenarios when the match engine calculates what will happen next?

Or do you disagree completely?

isuckatfm
17-01-2008, 10:30
A lot of people when dissecting the "look at how many shots I had and I still couldn't score" threads state that tempo if set too quick results in strikers hitting shots too early or not taking an extra touch. In my opinion if this is true then something in the match engine should be changed.

My argument against tempo affecting players in and around the box is that in real life football is it does not matter what the tactical set up is once the chance has been created.

- in a one on one a player's ability/morale/condition versus the goalkeeper's ability/morale/condition plus a little bit of luck will determine whether or not a one on one chance is converted. Also the one on one chances of success will be affected by the angle at which the one on one is reached. The tempo the team is playing at should be an irrelevant factor.

- if a player breaks free of the last defender whether or not he shoots early or continues into the available space towards the goal is going to be determined by his own mental attributes plus how quickly the opposition defenders close him down (does he feel the opposition defender breathing down his neck and if so how does he respond), as well as how the opposition goalkeeper behaves (how quickly he comes off his line to narrow the angle). In real life I don't see a player thinking "the gaffer told us to play at a fast tempo so I better let one fly" even though there is nothing but fresh air between him and the goal.

- if a winger gets in behind the opposition full back, and onto a cross in a goal scoring opportunity, whether or not he hits it first time or takes the extra touch will depend on how much space he has and his own mental attributes. In real life his mental stats will determine what he decides to do next based on the scenario at hand. As with the striker in the above example the overall tempo of the play that led to the chance will have no bearing on what he decides to do.

- if a striker makes a run to pull away from the defender and receives the ball in space with room to move into in order to reduce the distance to goal or improve the shooting angle, then his mental attributes will determine whether or not he chooses to do this. Again I don't believe the tempo the team plays at has any influence on what he decides to do. It should not make him snatch at a shot.

In my experience of playing the game if a top class Premiership side and a Conference South side are set up identically using the in game slider system, then in all of the above scenarios the players seem to behave in a similar manner (this is based on playing the game rather then any in depth statistical analysis so if you have experienced it differently feel free to post your thoughts on the inaccuracy of this statement). So essentially one of the key elements that differentiates the quality players from the average players is lost.

As an illustrative example consider a player in each of the scenarios above who has the maximum mental attributes. In my opinion the two key attributes in these scenarios based on the FM attribute model are composure and decisions. If a player has 20 for both then regardless of the team's tactical settings these attributes, in conjunction with his belief in his own ability i.e. morale, should determine what he chooses to do next in the majority of occasions he finds himself in those situations (of course a random element should be introduced to avoid it becoming overly repetitive and predictable). Whether or not he successfully does as he intended will depend on his technical attributes.

Do you believe this 'tempo effect' should be removed?

If players are aware of where they are on the pitch is it possible to remove the tempo setting from a player's decision in the above scenarios when the match engine calculates what will happen next?

Or do you disagree completely?

Cam69r
17-01-2008, 10:43
Good post and i agree with what you say.

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 10:43
Oi! I thought I had the monopoly on ridiculously long thread titles http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

(About to read now).

The Gaffovski
17-01-2008, 10:45
Good post.

I'd prefer if they just merged Tempo and Time Wasting. So that an extremely slow Tempo would mean time wasting, and the higher up you go the less of a patient build up it would be. That's just my opinion.

I like the idea of having a Tempo, but do agree that once a GOOD goal-scoring opportunity is created, the tempo should have no bearing on the outcome. Higher tempo should just mean more interceptions by defenders due to rushed passing, not that strikers will miss their golden opportunities.

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 10:59
I agree with what you are suggesting happens when a high tempo game is being played, but I do not agree that it should be scrapped.

I think what it forces a player to do is make a decision, (whatever that decision may be), earlier than he may have done had the team been instructed to play a slower temp style a play.

This may mean a quick first time pass to where he thinks a team-mate should be, or a first-time snap shot at goal.

I think the match engine shows this pretty realistically.

You are also trying to lay the blame of the 1v1 chances spurned at the door of the "temp setting". I would suggest that this is exactly the same even with a slow buld-up where the ball is played long over the top for an onrushing striker. The 1v1 issues are completely seperate to this and are caused by too many chances being created, not the inability to take these chances.

Your example of a Premiership team playing a hight temp game against a Conference South side who are also playing a similar style game is a good one, however I believe you have come to the wrong conclusions.

In real life it would be likely that both teams might play in this way, however with quite a distinct difference in the end product. The Premiersghip teams ability with the balkl would be far superior and you would expect them to pake not only more succesful passes, but also more key passes intob the danger-zone. The lower league on the other hand would not see as much of the ball because more passes would miss their intewnded target and their off the ball movement would not be as good so they would be easier to close down and mark. For the lower leafgue tean, their high temp game might involve a high tempo level of closing down without the ball rather than with it.

As someone who started wuth a team of appalling ability and has created a tactic with max temp and min pass length, I have regularly come "a cropper" against weaker teams who have defended well and hit me on the break.

To my mind there are a number of issues with the match engine, but the influence that the "tempo" slider has on it is not one of them.

Well done for making sense and asking a question in a reasonable and articulate manner though. It's a refreshing change from the norm in here at the moment. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

RSCA4Ever
17-01-2008, 11:36
I do agree with much of what you say, but i totally don't agree with what some people say that it's because of tempo.
IMO 1v1 is bugged anyway and not related to tempo.
What i think what tempo does do, is that it produces a higher amount of chances in the match.
Of course higher pace will not always give your own team more opportunity's.
In fact it can also give the opposition sometimes more chances because your players will more easily loose possession.
I do notice that viewing lower league matches and EPL matches really are different from each other.
EPL matches have more curved shots and faster pace while lower league games almost never have such shots.
But between EPL and championship matches really is no difference, they all look like if the players are from the same quality, and maybe this is something that needs to be improved in future if possible.
Basically i never really agreed with the statement that 1v1 chances get missed because of tempo, i do think it's only because of the bug that they miss to many chances.
Reason why is because the tactics i use at this moment have tempo on "5", and also my strikers miss many 1v1's. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Neji
17-01-2008, 11:49
It's not 1 on 1's which are bugged its simply the fact that you can create too many chances. Tactics are everything in this game, not that I agree it should be but you can win trophies with poor teams if you're tactics are right and of course this is the same irl to a certain extent. However, it seems that the AI is making the games balanced by making the Gk's better but this is simply down to having too many chances. So if you create a tactic which dominates but doesn't give you 30 or 40 shots a match, you will be alright. It shouldn't really be like that but this is a game and certain things have to be done a certain way because coders are limited with what they can do.

RSCA4Ever
17-01-2008, 11:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:
Do you believe this 'tempo effect' should be removed?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry just noticed i didn't answer your question! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif
No i don't think it should be removed.
BTW quality post! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

eXistenZ
17-01-2008, 12:19
Agree, and notice the tempo hasn't any effect with me. Slow tempo or fast stil need 15 chances

isuckatfm
17-01-2008, 14:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

Oi! I thought I had the monopoly on ridiculously long thread titles .
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Do I get to go on the infamous 'list'?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

I agree with what you are suggesting happens when a high tempo game is being played, but I do not agree that it should be scrapped.

I think what it forces a player to do is make a decision, (whatever that decision may be), earlier than he may have done had the team been instructed to play a slower temp style a play.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn’t suggesting that playing at a high tempo necessarily results in creating these types of chances (although that might be the case) but rather that if tempo is a reason for players shooting too early/not taking advantage of the space/not taking the extra touch in the above scenarios(as suggested by posters offering tactical reasons for poor conversion rates) then in my opinion this is not a true reflection of football and tempo should be removed from the calculation that governs a player’s decision in said scenarios.

I don’t believe it should be removed entirely (although I do have issues with the concept of tempo not only in FM but in real life football as well but that’s a whole different thread). It should just be removed in the scenarios in the original post where in my opinion it has no influence.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

I think what it forces a player to do is make a decision, (whatever that decision may be), earlier than he may have done had the team been instructed to play a slower temp style a play.

This may mean a quick first time pass to where he thinks a team-mate should be, or a first-time snap shot at goal.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree entirely with your description of the effect of tempo and have no major disagreement with how it affects players in this way at all parts of the pitch except for in the scenarios I outlined above. The second sentence in the quote illustrates where our opinions diverge. Should it affect the speed of passing? Yes. Should it affect the decision to shoot first time? I don’t believe so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

You are also trying to lay the blame of the 1v1 chances spurned at the door of the "temp setting". I would suggest that this is exactly the same even with a slow buld-up where the ball is played long over the top for an onrushing striker. The 1v1 issues are completely seperate to this and are caused by too many chances being created, not the inability to take these chances.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif. I think the too many chances syndrome is more indicative of poor defensive behaviour but that’s for another thread. Your observation of slow tempo when incorporated in the right tactics creating just as many missed one on ones suggests that the assumption of tempo playing a role in one on one scenarios is false (which makes this thread largely redundant). I have never seen someone from SI state that high tempo affects one on ones so until they do it will always be a case of speculation based on observation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

Your example of a Premiership team playing a hight temp game against a Conference South side who are also playing a similar style game is a good one, however I believe you have come to the wrong conclusions.

In real life it would be likely that both teams might play in this way, however with quite a distinct difference in the end product. The Premiersghip teams ability with the balkl would be far superior and you would expect them to pake not only more succesful passes, but also more key passes intob the danger-zone. The lower league on the other hand would not see as much of the ball because more passes would miss their intewnded target and their off the ball movement would not be as good so they would be easier to close down and mark. For the lower leafgue tean, their high temp game might involve a high tempo level of closing down without the ball rather than with it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don’t disagree with any of this but you have misinterpreted the point I was trying to make. The difficulty of internet communication and the cause of many insults on forums across the web http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Unless of course I’m misinterpreting the point you were making http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

The point of that comparison was that if tempo was the cause of players shooting too early then it seems to have an over riding effect on key mental attributes that should separate the men from the boys so to speak. Basically what I was getting at was that in my experience of managing at the different levels that when a player was in a position close to goal to take the extra touch or move into available space to improve the goalscoring opportunity, then IF my tempo was too high the player would invariably shoot early whether they were BSS or Premiership quality.

I am willing to accept that I could be wrong about this behaviour given my exposure to lower league management in FM 08 was a brief 8 month stint at Fisher (sacked for losing the confidence of the players and I then returned to selling used cars in the FM world). From your previous posts I know you play LLM exclusively so if your experience differs then there’s a high probability I’m wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:-

Reason why is because the tactics i use at this moment have tempo on "5", and also my strikers miss many 1v1's.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by eXistenZ:-

Agree, and notice the tempo hasn't any effect with me. Slow tempo or fast stil need 15 chances
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As with Jimbokav1971 both of you have played at lower tempo and suffered from poor 1v1 conversion rates (and SOG/Goal Ratios in eXistenZ’s case), suggesting tempo in of itself is not the issue.

Just to clarify my original post was inspired by people suggesting tempo as a cause for taking too many shots to score, hence the title. But even if these ‘bugs’ did not exist my argument for tempo being irrelevant to certain types of chances still stands (assuming that tempo is part of the calculation in the ME).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by The Gaffovski:-

I like the idea of having a Tempo, but do agree that once a GOOD goal-scoring opportunity is created, the tempo should have no bearing on the outcome.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif That sums it up in one nice sentence.

I guess it's true what someone once told me: “You really do like to take the long route to get to a point, don’t you” http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 15:11
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do I get to go on the infamous 'list'? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. Not if you carry on postink like that, (even if I do not agree with you).

Back on topic, agree with all of what you said. Sometimes I go off on a bit of a tangent when I answer. It was that more than me not grasping your point that led to the confusion.

I agree that in "certain specific situation", tempo "shouldn;t" affect a players ability to score, it's just that I'm not sure it does at the moment if that makes sense.

Just so you know, I dispensed with a slow style of play and have now developed a very fast short tactic that seems to not suffer the 1v1 bug because of the quality of chances that I am creating, (yet).

isuckatfm
17-01-2008, 15:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

I agree that in "certain specific situation", tempo "shouldn;t" affect a players ability to score, it's just that I'm not sure it does at the moment if that makes sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It makes perfect sense. TBH I'm not certain it does either. The post was more or less how I felt any time people suggested tempo as a reason in one of the umpteen threads about shots to goal ratios.

I have a very high tempo tactic that can create similar types of chances on a consistent basis yet the conversion rate of those similar chances can vary. Unless someone from SI confirms or denies the effect of tempo on a player's decisions and ability to score in those types of situations we'll never know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

Just so you know, I dispensed with a slow style of play and have now developed a very fast short tactic that seems to not suffer the 1v1 bug because of the quality of chances that I am creating, (yet). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have the solution to so many people's problems but your FM ethics prevent you from tipping. What a shame http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I can see you on your deathbed:-

"Son....Son......come closer, I have something I need to tell you.....the key to FM 08 was.....focus passing down the flanks.....and creative freedom of 13 notches....uuuuuugh" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jimbokav1971
17-01-2008, 15:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have the solution to so many people's problems but your FM ethics prevent you from tipping. What a shame </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, I do on occasion give out little titbits, but to be honest, you would probably be MUCH better off going into the T&TGF if help is required.

In terms of tactics, I worked out a VERY long time ago, that unless you understand, (a) what you want your players to do, (b) why you want them to do it, and (C) what the possible repercussions of them doing it may be, then whatever tactic you select will eventually become obsolete because you will be unable to adapt it over time and/or select the right players for the right positions.

Anyway, it's far more likely that I've just got lucky because everyone else in my league is pish http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

isuckatfm
17-01-2008, 15:52
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

In terms of tactics, I worked out a VERY long time ago, that unless you understand, (a) what you want your players to do, (b) why you want them to do it, and (C) what the possible repercussions of them doing it may be, then whatever tactic you select will eventually become obsolete because you will be unable to adapt it over time and/or select the right players for the right positions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif No truer words have been spoken. Just because it works for one squad doesn't mean it will work for another. Too many people go looking for generic quick fixes rather than analysing their own squad and tactics to see what's going wrong.

playmaker
17-01-2008, 16:01
Great original post, terrible thread title (where's the Post Now button gone - oh, it's over there!) and a really interesting discussion. I must be on the wrong forum! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mitja
17-01-2008, 16:33
you guys are having a real intlectual debate here I must admit I have problems understanding you http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just want to coment your title. tempo can affect your player not to score only when he is too damn tired to walk becouse of tempo...so it could happen to me, not to a pro player. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Amaroq
17-01-2008, 16:42
So, I can certainly see the argument that Tempo shouldn't impact one-on-ones.

However, the average chance *in the box*, shouldn't Tempo have an impact?

For example, my playmaking midfielder has the ball on the eighteen, back to goal. He turns and cuts a nifty through ball towards the spot. My striker breaks the offsides trap to reach the ball a half-step ahead of his defender, who maybe has a hidden grip on his shirt. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Does he fire first-touch, or does he take one more touch to settle?

Which slider should impact that decision? Or should that be entirely down to his mental attributes?

Sliders I could imagine impacting his decision:
<LI>Mentality - I'd rather it not, tbh. He's a striker. In the box. He should be looking to score.

<LI>Tempo - If I'm going to have any input into it at all, this is the one I'd want. High Tempo should guide him towards the one-time shot, Low Tempo should nudge him towards the extra touch to settle.

<LI>Time Wasting - I'd really hope this doesn't impact the decision at all. This is a scoring chance, flat out, and if he can score that wastes far more time than any other action he could take here!

<LI>Creative Freedom[/*] - I'd expect high Creative Freedom to push this decision more onto the shoulders of his mental attributes. In other words:
- A player with excellent Decisions but poor Technique would know he needs a touch to settle
- A player with excellent Decisions and great Technique would try the one-timer, so as not to give the defender time to cut it out
- A player with poor Decisions and great Technique might settle anyways, and
- A player with poor Decisions and poor Technique might try that first-time shot.

Low Creative Freedom, on the other hand, would increase the impact of the Tempo slider on his decision. "Do what I tell you, darn it!" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

... Thoughts?

Mitja
18-01-2008, 03:53
the only things that should influence him in scoring oportunity is his decision, composure and flair. what he is going to do with it (chip, burst, drible...). I believe that players react instinctivly in these situations. none of team instructions should have any impact on it.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 04:20
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
the only things that should influence him in scoring oportunity is his decision, composure and flair. what he is going to do with it (chip, burst, drible...). I believe that players react instinctivly in these situations. none of team instructions should have any impact on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to mention shooting of course, heading, (if it's a headed chance), determination, (will he put his foot or head in where it hurts), technique and long shots linked with decisions, (does he have the ability to lob the keeper from 40 yards when the chance presents itself), teamwork, (is there a another player better placed).

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 04:23
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I believe that players react instinctivly </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best strikers act instinctively, (whether they be defenders midfielders or attackers). Many though are not so lucky and have to work VERY hard to do certain things.

A player such as Robbie Fowler or that new Arsenal Brazilian/Croat look like they were born to score. Then you see the likes of Kuyt and Crouch who do not have a jot of the "instict" of these to sublime finishers.

RSCA4Ever
18-01-2008, 04:41
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by isuckatfm:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by RSCA4Ever:-

Reason why is because the tactics i use at this moment have tempo on "5", and also my strikers miss many 1v1's.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by eXistenZ:-

Agree, and notice the tempo hasn't any effect with me. Slow tempo or fast stil need 15 chances
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As with Jimbokav1971 both of you have played at lower tempo and suffered from poor 1v1 conversion rates (and SOG/Goal Ratios in eXistenZ’s case), suggesting tempo in of itself is not the issue.

Just to clarify my original post was inspired by people suggesting tempo as a cause for taking too many shots to score, hence the title. But even if these ‘bugs’ did not exist my argument for tempo being irrelevant to certain types of chances still stands (assuming that tempo is part of the calculation in the ME).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I play always at home with slow tempo and away with medium tempo.
When it comes to 1v1's in both settings i score/miss them at the same rate.
I do have more 1v1 situations abroad then home but that seems realistic.

In your OP i do agree with you assuming the problem was based on tempo.
But i think Jimbokav is right that there are to many chances and probably SI have tweaked the strikers and GK's so that scores wouldn't be to unrealistic.
This would also explain the many shots straight at the GK in such occasions.

Wizard
18-01-2008, 04:56
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
the only things that should influence him in scoring oportunity is his decision, composure and flair. what he is going to do with it (chip, burst, drible...). I believe that players react instinctivly in these situations. none of team instructions should have any impact on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to butt in...but haven't you forgotten about Technique, Finishing, and maybe First touch? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But I do agree that tempo shouldn't have any impact at all...I can ask, tell, demand a player to do something, but he will only do what he is capable of...and for top players, they are not going to follow what even the queen of England says to do on the field if it makes him look like a fool match after match...

In fact, having first heard the argument that tempo causes high SOT...I played half a season with tempo set at 19 and the second half set at 3...didn't notice that much different...not only to SOT, but to the overall match play (which in itself is alarming...)...no other changes to my 3 rotating tactics.

Speaking of tactics, I believe most gamers confuse tactics with formation...setting the same formation doesn't mean tactics are exactly the same...but that's for another thread...

I believe high SOT vs goal is partially caused by poor defending but primarily caused by a lack of midfield action...that too is a topic for another thread...

There's still a lot of work for SI to carry out on the ME...no advantage play, ridiculous throw ins, corner after corner, laughable off-side calls, unbalanced match rating and so on...those are topics for yet another thread...

To the OP...I took charge of Man U and Harrogate Town, set both teams tactics to be exactly the same (not default...) and played them against each other in a friendly...Man U won 4-2...SOTs were 32 vs 17...this may sound realistic to some, but if Harrogate can get 17 shots ON TARGET playing against Man U...something is seriously wrong...yup, this is for another thread too...

All in all...great post and banter...this is truly the way to go in any forum... http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

chopper99
18-01-2008, 05:22
Great thread http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

At first glance I agree that tempo should perhaps have little effect on a players ability to convert chances. But then I read this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:
So, I can certainly see the argument that Tempo shouldn't impact one-on-ones.

However, the average chance *in the box*, shouldn't Tempo have an impact?

For example, my playmaking midfielder has the ball on the eighteen, back to goal. He turns and cuts a nifty through ball towards the spot. My striker breaks the offsides trap to reach the ball a half-step ahead of his defender, who maybe has a hidden grip on his shirt. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Does he fire first-touch, or does he take one more touch to settle?

Which slider should impact that decision? Or should that be entirely down to his mental attributes?

Sliders I could imagine impacting his decision:
<LI>Mentality - I'd rather it not, tbh. He's a striker. In the box. He should be looking to score.

<LI>Tempo - If I'm going to have any input into it at all, this is the one I'd want. High Tempo should guide him towards the one-time shot, Low Tempo should nudge him towards the extra touch to settle.

<LI>Time Wasting - I'd really hope this doesn't impact the decision at all. This is a scoring chance, flat out, and if he can score that wastes far more time than any other action he could take here!

<LI>Creative Freedom[/*] - I'd expect high Creative Freedom to push this decision more onto the shoulders of his mental attributes. In other words:
- A player with excellent Decisions but poor Technique would know he needs a touch to settle
- A player with excellent Decisions and great Technique would try the one-timer, so as not to give the defender time to cut it out
- A player with poor Decisions and great Technique might settle anyways, and
- A player with poor Decisions and poor Technique might try that first-time shot.

Low Creative Freedom, on the other hand, would increase the impact of the Tempo slider on his decision. "Do what I tell you, darn it!" http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

... Thoughts? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have to say I agree completely with this. Mentality for me should mainly impact how far forward the striker is looking to get and when. Time wasting should be nothing to do with this as stated. I'd hate to see my striker be through on goal but decide to try and run the ball towards the corner just because I have time wasting set high.

So for me there should be a link between Creative Freedom, Tempo and the individual attributes of the player (as outlined by Amaroq)

So a player should be more likely to rush a shot with tempo set high if his creative freedom is restricted. From there his attributes will determine how successful that rushed shot will be.

If his creative freedom is high then it's pretty much up to him if he wants to take the first time shot or not, and whichever decision he makes it will be again down to his attributes how successful the shot is.

Looking back over that it's pretty much exactly what Amaroq said, except that Amaroq said it better http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mitja
18-01-2008, 05:31
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wizard:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:
the only things that should influence him in scoring oportunity is his decision, composure and flair. what he is going to do with it (chip, burst, drible...). I believe that players react instinctivly in these situations. none of team instructions should have any impact on it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to butt in...but haven't you forgotten about Technique, Finishing, and maybe First touch? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

But I do agree that tempo shouldn't have any impact at all...I can ask, tell, demand a player to do something, but he will only do what he is capable of...and for top players, they are not going to follow what even the queen of England says to do on the field if it makes him look like a fool match after match...

In fact, having first heard the argument that tempo causes high SOT...I played half a season with tempo set at 19 and the second half set at 3...didn't notice that much different...not only to SOT, but to the overall match play (which in itself is alarming...)...no other changes to my 3 rotating tactics.

Speaking of tactics, I believe most gamers confuse tactics with formation...setting the same formation doesn't mean tactics are exactly the same...but that's for another thread...

I believe high SOT vs goal is partially caused by poor defending but primarily caused by a lack of midfield action...that too is a topic for another thread...

There's still a lot of work for SI to carry out on the ME...no advantage play, ridiculous throw ins, corner after corner, laughable off-side calls, unbalanced match rating and so on...those are topics for yet another thread...

To the OP...I took charge of Man U and Harrogate Town, set both teams tactics to be exactly the same (not default...) and played them against each other in a friendly...Man U won 4-2...SOTs were 32 vs 17...this may sound realistic to some, but if Harrogate can get 17 shots ON TARGET playing against Man U...something is seriously wrong...yup, this is for another thread too...

All in all...great post and banter...this is truly the way to go in any forum... http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exellant post mate, a little depresing after reading it (all those topics for another thread)...http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jamesy247
18-01-2008, 06:15
I personally think the major thing that’s wrong is the ridiculous number of shots per game. It's far too many to be considered realistic.

For instance just take a look at the OPTA stats for Man U over 22 games played.

Man U have scored 44 goals at 2 goals a game.
They’ve had 320 shots and 152 on target which is 14.5 shots per game and 6.9 on target.
Even in the recent destruction of Newcastle they managed 6 goals, 24 shots, 16 on target.

Now take a look at your own teams stats in FM. I can bet you they are greater than the current most attacking team in the prem.
I know my mid table Derby team out performs Man U’s for shots and % on target.

Realistic? I think not.

arrogantio
18-01-2008, 11:57
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- in a one on one a player's ability/morale/condition versus the goalkeeper's ability/morale/condition plus a little bit of luck will determine whether or not a one on one chance is converted. Also the one on one chances of success will be affected by the angle at which the one on one is reached. The tempo the team is playing at should be an irrelevant factor.

- if a player breaks free of the last defender whether or not he shoots early or continues into the available space towards the goal is going to be determined by his own mental attributes plus how quickly the opposition defenders close him down (does he feel the opposition defender breathing down his neck and if so how does he respond), as well as how the opposition goalkeeper behaves (how quickly he comes off his line to narrow the angle). In real life I don't see a player thinking "the gaffer told us to play at a fast tempo so I better let one fly" even though there is nothing but fresh air between him and the goal. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I agree to a certain extent. I wouldn't argue that tempo is totally irrelevant: playing at a high tempo and rushing most decisions a player makes certainly has an effect on a player's mental state when a chance arises, even though the manager's words themselves won't encourage players to make rash decisions when given space and time. The effect is much less acute than it appears to be for FM, however. Ideally this effect should be scaled heavily according to composure etc (it probably is, but not to the optimum level) so a nervy centre half who has been instructed to slide in and welly it at every available opportunity will instinctively do the same thing when the ball breaks to him in front of an open goal but will probably keep a cooler head if he's been instructed to take his time and not worry about opposition pressure; whereas a classy striker will usually have the composure to bring the awkwardly bouncing ball under control, step infield to improve the angle and then slot home regardless of how much his manager emphasised being quick about everything he does.

Additionally, nerfing striker's abilities at high tempo somewhat more than at low tempo makes it less easy to achieve success using direct, high tempo football and physical strikers which has long been a weakness of the FM match engine due to the relative difficulty of programming good defensive decision making compared with good attacking decision making. In conjunction with emphasis on mental attributes, this should assure your quick strikers and big target men have to be mentally strong to properly take advantage of defensive mixups caused by playing at tempo.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">- if a winger gets in behind the opposition full back, and onto a cross in a goal scoring opportunity, whether or not he hits it first time or takes the extra touch will depend on how much space he has and his own mental attributes. In real life his mental stats will determine what he decides to do next based on the scenario at hand. As with the striker in the above example the overall tempo of the play that led to the chance will have no bearing on what he decides to do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>IMO this sort of decision making is exactly what tempo should affect.

A high tempo setting is the equivalent of a manager saying "force the play to create chances; don't give the opposition a chance to think" and a low tempo setting is the equivalent of saying "keep the ball in your possession where possible; take your time in making decisions and try to be precise in everything you do"

In a case where a winger has a reasonable degree of space to play a 50/50 ball across the goalmouth a winger on high tempo should nearly always be looking to play the early ball to catch the defence flat footed, whilst a winger on low tempo should nearly always be looking to bring the ball under control, carefully pick out the angle and attempt as precisely weighted a cross as he's capable of (and perhaps give passing to an overlapping player with better crossing abilities or cutting inside more consideration).

To be honest, if you're watching a top class Premiership side in the last few minutes of the game playing direct as well as high tempo football in a desperate attempt to steal a result there probably isn't a whole lot of difference in the decisions the players make compared with a Conference South side doing the same thing (although the Premiership players will need to be more mentally sharp to get away from their markers in the first place as well as having superior technical and physical abilities). It's well known that certain styles of play largely negate the advantages of having intelligent and creative players whilst giving the big donkeys a chance to shine

Amaroq
18-01-2008, 12:00
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
At first glance I agree that tempo should perhaps have little effect on a players ability to convert chances. But then I read this... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif Thanks, I was starting to think nobody'd read that post, as all the other replies ignored it! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Amaroq
18-01-2008, 12:04
Well said, arrogantio. http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif Your second paragraph, in particular, but I agree with everything you said.

RSCA4Ever
18-01-2008, 12:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by chopper99:
At first glance I agree that tempo should perhaps have little effect on a players ability to convert chances. But then I read this... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif Thanks, I was starting to think nobody'd read that post, as all the other replies ignored it! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't replied yesterday because i agree with your post. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
You might want to add the slider for "running with ball". http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I think when that is set to "much" then he might want to take that extra step before shooting.
I don't think "time waisting" has any effect on a real chance, but to be honest i only use that in tight games in last 10 minutes.

isuckatfm
18-01-2008, 14:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:-

So, I can certainly see the argument that Tempo shouldn't impact one-on-ones.

However, the average chance *in the box*, shouldn't Tempo have an impact?

For example, my playmaking midfielder has the ball on the eighteen, back to goal. He turns and cuts a nifty through ball towards the spot. My striker breaks the offsides trap to reach the ball a half-step ahead of his defender, who maybe has a hidden grip on his shirt.

Does he fire first-touch, or does he take one more touch to settle?

Which slider should impact that decision? Or should that be entirely down to his mental attributes?

Sliders I could imagine impacting his decision:

Mentality - I'd rather it not, tbh. He's a striker. In the box. He should be looking to score.

Tempo - If I'm going to have any input into it at all, this is the one I'd want. High Tempo should guide him towards the one-time shot, Low Tempo should nudge him towards the extra touch to settle.

Time Wasting - I'd really hope this doesn't impact the decision at all. This is a scoring chance, flat out, and if he can score that wastes far more time than any other action he could take here!

Creative Freedom[/*] - I'd expect high Creative Freedom to push this decision more onto the shoulders of his mental attributes. In other words:
- A player with excellent Decisions but poor Technique would know he needs a touch to settle
- A player with excellent Decisions and great Technique would try the one-timer, so as not to give the defender time to cut it out
- A player with poor Decisions and great Technique might settle anyways, and
- A player with poor Decisions and poor Technique might try that first-time shot.

Low Creative Freedom, on the other hand, would increase the impact of the Tempo slider on his decision. "Do what I tell you, darn it!"

... Thoughts?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

An excellent argument as to if sliders affect a player’s behaviour in these scenarios then that is logically how one would expect them to. It seems from the way people have responded is that it is a subjective question dependent on the individual’s perspective and consequent opinion. As I stated in the opening post I believe the slider settings should be irrelevant and as Mitja stated I feel footballing instinct should be the determining factor but the logic you applied in your description of how sliders might affect the player’s behaviour has put a few cracks in the foundations of my argument.

As alluded to by Jimbokav1971 and Mitja to me what separates players (assuming physical equivalence for simplicity) is two key things:-

1. Footballing Intelligence: what they decide to do in a given scenario
2. Technique: whether or not they can pull it off

To use Amaroq’s example (as it more succinct and paints a better picture than mine)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Amaroq:-

my playmaking midfielder has the ball on the eighteen, back to goal. He turns and cuts a nifty through ball towards the spot. My striker breaks the offsides trap to reach the ball a half-step ahead of his defender, who maybe has a hidden grip on his shirt.

Does he fire first-touch, or does he take one more touch to settle?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this instance when the striker picks up the ball he makes an instantaneous assessment of the situation and decides what to do based on his footballing intelligence. How calmly he does this is affected by his composure. How well he does it is affected by his technique. I don’t believe tempo, or any other tactical setting, comes into it.

For example consider two strikers of equivalent footballing intelligence who both decide that based on where their team mates are, where the opposition defenders are and where the goalkeeper is positioned, that they will attempt to curl the ball into the far corner. Then technique comes into play. The striker with better technique/finishing will pick his spot more accurately. The player with the lesser technique will not make clean contact and scuff it right at the keeper. It’s one of those situations where you can see what the player intended to do but he just didn’t get it right.

Yet in my opinion neither of those players when they process their surroundings and make that decision are incorporating any of the tactical instructions their manager has given them into what they decide to do. So what I am arguing is that when the match engine models this that the calculation that decides what the player will attempt to do next does not incorporate any tactical settings in it but is instead a function of the player’s attributes only.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

A player such as Robbie Fowler or that new Arsenal Brazilian/Croat look like they were born to score. Then you see the likes of Kuyt and Crouch who do not have a jot of the "instict" of these to sublime finishers.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has made me consider that a secondary issue with my post might be my expectations of how intelligent ‘Artificial Intelligence’ actually is. In many respects it’s a credit to the game that it sucks me in to the extent I expect these little dots to behave like their real life counterparts. You can see how off the ball, finishing, composure etc. might separate these players but in my opinion there are a couple of elements missing:-

1. Natural goalscoring instinct
2. Knowing your own intentions

1 is fairly self explanatory and might be contained in the right combination of existing attributes.

The second one is harder to describe in a phrase but from seeing Kuyt play a few times (any hardcore Liverpool reading this feel free to disagree) he is a good example. Sometimes he just looks like he doesn’t really know what his intentions are when he gets the ball, he just puts his head down and runs in the general direction of the goal. He doesn’t seem to get his head up often enough nor have awareness of the pitch. If anyone reading this feels I’m talking out of my arse feel free to say so as it is just my opinion.

Whether or not this is something that is programmable I don’t know but maybe my expectation of players being coded to perform in an intelligent manner without reference to controlling variables, i.e. sliders, is a little far fetched.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Wizard:-

But I do agree that tempo shouldn't have any impact at all...I can ask, tell, demand a player to do something, but he will only do what he is capable of...and for top players, they are not going to follow what even the queen of England says to do on the field if it makes him look like a fool match after match...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that again raises questions about expectations of AI and the actual current capabilities. Is it possible to code independent thought in those little dots or will they follow instructions blindly if the right combination of sliders is used (I use this clarification as IIRC SI have stated that creative freedom affects the extent to which players follow instructions). Does their personality actually affect their performance? If they have you as a disliked personnel does it affect the match engine and how they perform i.e. will they follow your instructions? As you said with some of your other excellent points probably a discussion for another thread.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Wizard:-

I believe high SOT vs goal is partially caused by poor defending but primarily caused by a lack of midfield action...that too is a topic for another thread...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I’ve seen a number of people comment on poor defensive behaviour, and as you said maybe a thread could be started where people can post screenshots illustrating this. The thing with poor defending is that I am not sure whether it is something to be classified as a bug or poor coding or it is actually working the way the programmers intended http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by arrogantio:-

I agree to a certain extent. I wouldn't argue that tempo is totally irrelevant: playing at a high tempo and rushing most decisions a player makes certainly has an effect on a player's mental state when a chance arises, even though the manager's words themselves won't encourage players to make rash decisions when given space and time.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excellent point. I had not considered the psychological knock on effect of how a player has made other decisions based on tactics, and how this might affect him in a separate game scenario. If that is coded in the game then http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif to SI. If not then in my opinion it should be if possible.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by arrogantio:-

so a nervy centre half who has been instructed to slide in and welly it at every available opportunity will instinctively do the same thing when the ball breaks to him in front of an open goal but will probably keep a cooler head if he's been instructed to take his time and not worry about opposition pressure; whereas a classy striker will usually have the composure to bring the awkwardly bouncing ball under control, step infield to improve the angle and then slot home regardless of how much his manager emphasised being quick about everything he does.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That’s an intriguing idea. Do you think the same should apply between different quality strikers also? Instead of considering strikers consider the ability of players to finish regardless of their natural position, and they would be influenced more by tactical settings, like tempo, the worse they get.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by arrogantio:-

In a case where a winger has a reasonable degree of space to play a 50/50 ball across the goalmouth a winger on high tempo should nearly always be looking to play the early ball to catch the defence flat footed, whilst a winger on low tempo should nearly always be looking to bring the ball under control, carefully pick out the angle and attempt as precisely weighted a cross as he's capable of (and perhaps give passing to an overlapping player with better crossing abilities or cutting inside more consideration).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That again is an interesting point which I hadn’t considered. I don’t disagree with the logic behind your reasoning, but will ask you this question: do you not think that whichever of those choices a player makes (and of course their ability to do it) is what differentiates quality players from run of the mill players?

This is just a theory but reading your post and then writing the above reply I had one of those lightbulb moments. A lot of the people who complain (I am not using this in a derogatory sense) about the game often point out that tactics appear to diminish differences in player abilities to a greater extent than in real life. Without knowing exactly how the match engine works, don’t the differing opinions we have seem to illustrate this very complaint?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by arrogantio:-

To be honest, if you're watching a top class Premiership side in the last few minutes of the game playing direct as well as high tempo football in a desperate attempt to steal a result there probably isn't a whole lot of difference in the decisions the players make compared with a Conference South side doing the same thing (although the Premiership players will need to be more mentally sharp to get away from their markers in the first place as well as having superior technical and physical abilities). It's well known that certain styles of play largely negate the advantages of having intelligent and creative players whilst giving the big donkeys a chance to shine.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If what you are describing is throwing a big man up front and lumping the ball to him that’s a fair assessment. I have no issue with tempo affecting player’s decisions then as the key is get the ball in the box i.e. high tempo. My issue is if tempo affects the player when the chance is created. Consider this equivalent chance being created for a Premiership quality striker and a Conference South quality striker. The full back for the team chasing the result picks up the ball and lumps it forward. The big man gets the flick on and the striker runs onto the ball behind the defensive line just outside the box. Now freeze the match at that exact moment. Which player do you think would make the better decision at this moment, the Premiership striker or the Conference South player? And do you think his attributes should determine what he does or the instructions of the manager?

If you think tempo should affect whether or not he hits it first time or takes advantage of the space to move closer to goal, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Amaroq
18-01-2008, 16:18
Class reply, isafm. I'd have expected no less, from you! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif Will respond in more detail when I have a spot more time.

Jimbokav1971
18-01-2008, 16:26
You're not wrong Amaroq.

I don't know what's been wrong with GQ this week, but the standard of posts has improved enormously. Despite that, isafm wins the award for post of the week with that last onehttp://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif.

isuckatfm
18-01-2008, 16:34
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:-

Class reply, isafm. I'd have expected no less, from you! Will respond in more detail when I have a spot more time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

*doffs his cap and says in a poor impression of a Victorian era Englishman*

Thank you, kind sir http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm new to this whole forum business and wasn't sure about how to respond. The manners my parents knocked into me compelled me to respond to every reply to my original post. But not sure about the whole 'forum etiquette' thing and whether or not people would look at the length of the post and go 'next' http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

isuckatfm
18-01-2008, 16:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jimbokav1971:-

I don't know what's been wrong with GQ this week, but the standard of posts has improved enormously. Despite that, isafm wins the award for post of the week with that last one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because of my crap intermittent internet connection I missed your post while I was thanking Amaroq for his praise. Hopefully you didn't take offense at me failing to thank you for your praise (though I suspect you've thicker skin than that).

I'm just glad it hasn't been hijacked by the warring factions of the forum(fingers crossed).

tubbycrabs
18-01-2008, 16:47
isuckatfm is correct.

Tempo should only affect the creation of a chance at goal. Once the chance has been created, tempo should have no bearing on the capability of the player to convert the chance.

Composure, Decisions, Finishing, Technique and Morale can all argued for playing a part, but tempo, no.

pauly15
18-01-2008, 21:37
exactly- chances going in are far too much to do with your formation- i can get an entirely reasonable shots(good chances)/goals ratio with some formations and an entirely unreasonable one (misses) with others.

moggydave
19-01-2008, 03:57
isuckatfm: You put all this far better than I did in my thread in the T+T forum. It must be coincidence that we posted the threads at about the same time.


I completely agree with everything you said here. Tempo should affect passing, not shooting.

Ched
26-01-2008, 06:40
Somehow missed this thread when it was first posted.

Generally excellent point sbeing made, i suspect that the ME may remove temp from the equation for some instances;

e.g. when i was young and ignorant of tempo, i had an equally high score rate form corners to when i lowered tempo.

Due to the current ME it would be a hard thing to experiment on (i.e. i use a low tempo game and create 25+ chances per game...) so i'm not sure what the current effect of high tempo is on finishing.

Nice post, and something i hope SI will consider.

(Perhaps a similar type of problem to "when jumping is not as relevant as height situations" - sometimes an important stat can be irrelevant)

Snoweel
26-01-2008, 07:37
What are your opinions on how tempo should affect the player's decision to take the shot as opposed to looking for that extra pass?

I found when I played up front that my shooting was much better when I banished all thoughts of passing from my mind.

And whenever I kept the passing option in the back of my mind (my natural instinct) my shooting really suffered.

Does this mean that a player like myself (I assume others exist - I had a CA of about 25) would shoot better in a high tempo system (minimising extra passes)? Or did I just have low Composure?

UELLfan
26-01-2008, 07:59
Good points in the OP.

However, I do think that tempo is/should be really a limiter on a striker's choices.

Tell the team to play as if they were on speed/stereroids and the finishing will suffer.

Tell them to think and choose the best option and their finishing will improve.

To me tempo is linked on how much do you want your players to ponder on the alternatives, not how quick you want them to move the ball.

If I want my players to move the ball quickly I tell them to play more attacking wide football and be a little more inventive. Regardless of tempo set, the ball will start to move quicker. Of course, that takes as a given that I do have a team capable of making good choices and decisions and a high footballing IQ.

Just my two cents.

hth,
Jordi.