A suggestion on PA

Hey guys! I have s suggestion on the PA system. I realised that in real life, no one have a fixed amount of potential on how a player has. If he's a hardworking player, he'll keep on improving, even during or after his peak. And some players do have a tendency to suddenly improve a lot in a short amount of time. I've seen a lot of players in the last few FM that are in this situation: like Theo Walcott, Ben Foster etc. I remember playing fm 05 in the past and they both have mostly single digit technical attributes, and seasons later, they are in Coca Cola League 1 or 2, which in a way, was not predicted by the fm researchers. No, I'm not blaming those researchers. Afterall, no one expected that they will become who they are now.

My suggestion will be, give players a PA that is not fixed. For example, a youth player coming through the ranks, got a CA of 80, and a PA of maybe 140. However, he was snapped up by a club that has the best state of the art academy. With best coaches and academy, training quality is much higher, leading to him being a much better player than before. He should have a PA higher than 140 and his CA may probably exceed 140 in future.

Guys this is just a suggestion. If you guys don't like it you can certainly let me know. But pls go easy on me. I'm not an english speaker, so pardon my bad english

Everyone has his own limits.

no. Simple reason being that all the clubs with the best facilities will get fantastic regens every single year, rather than a superstar every now and then. You're saying to base his PA on the clubs training facilities, this mean that Barca would be bringing in a squad of potential world beaters every year, where as someone like Gijon would not get a sniff and thier players are limited to 140, thus meaning that those teams, as time goes on, will very rarely do anything in game as they lack the funds to buy many players and rely on their 'statistically imparred' regens.

I think the other issue is that you only have a rating of 1-20 for facilities and 1-200 for PA so the cutoffs would be too fine.

Appreciate your opinion but i think PA works fine as is

Theres another thread on this as well and my feelings are that the system should be tweaked so that in general PA's are higher but it becomes harder for players to reach their PA (which should still be fixed).

At the moment i feel like PA is rated based on a players current situation and performances but it doesn't necessarily reflect the ability of that player to grow if their circumstances changed.

it can also work the other way around though as well

what if you moved to a club, reached your peak.... and then moved to a club with lower facilities, does your PA automatically go down?

eg.. if Walcott went back to Southampton (not likely but possible) then his PA would go down to 150 based on what your saying (because Southampton have rubbish facilities) and yet Walcott has a CA of 160..... (game overload... error.... boom!)

and not all players reach their potential anyways.... I've seen screenies of Verratti turning out with stats of 17+, yet on my save his stats are all 13-15

and if all players had a potential of 200 (for arguments sake) then what happens to the transfer market... you complain that its overinflated as it is.... fancy paying 20m for EVERY player?

PA is just a simple number but it is not just simply made up. The number represents all the different aspects of the player.

Of course it is unrealistic to say that this is your absolute limit and you will never be able to go past it no matter what you do, but when we start thinking in those terms we hit the wall on the fact that we are trying to define the mystery of life. We don't really know what makes someone better than others.

We do know certain aspects that will influence our potentials in our career in general but you can't really set up a defined formula for how it works.

If SI could come up with a realistic calculator of who succeeds and who fails, then they would probably receive a Nobel prize before they produce a game.

While I agree that the current system is not the most ideal representation of reality, I don't know if there is any better way of doing it without overshooting or undershooting.

Some time ago I had similar feelings about CA/PA system, but in some kind of different way. I thought the same, that no one can predict if e.g. Enzo Zidane will play like his father, or he will end like Jordi Cruyff without any big achievement. I agree with the earlier posts that that kind of fluid PA would make Barca or Arsenal invincible. I thought about basing PA system as well on reputation and facilities, but I thought that PA should be a number between -1 and -10 (like in pre-game editor), where this number is a CHANCE for a newgen to achieve some level of playing. Of course this system wouldn't be working that way, the newgen with -10 will for sure become a world class player, as well as the one with -1 will never play for ManU. It's just that clubs with better facilities and coaches would get a higher chance, something like in NBA draft lottery - 1st pick doesn't mean club would get the best player of them all, but has THE BEST CHANCE.

If PA was based on the player's qualities rather than their club, or at least not solely based on the club then it could potentially work and would make a nice addition. Would be quite hard to implement though and would have to be based say on workrate, determination, the club situation and a good old bit of randomness.

We get so many threads asking for this and all the authors fail to understand what the word "potential" means.

Potential ability is set from concpetion in their mothers womb and can never increase(only decrease in the event of serious injury or illness). No matter how determined a player is and how great the facilities and coaches he has, he won't exceed his potential. Great facilities and coaches don't improve potential, what they do is increase the likelihood a player will fulfill their potential.

No matter how good the coaches I have are, or how good the facilities I train at are, I could never of been a Premier League footballer as my genes have put a limit on my potential limit of ability.

eg.. if Walcott went back to Southampton (not likely but possible) then his PA would go down to 150 based on what your saying (because Southampton have rubbish facilities) and yet Walcott has a CA of 160..... (game overload... error.... boom!)

Saints have one of the best academies in England and very good training facilities and coaches I'll have you know!

imo It probably would have been better for Walcott to have stayed with Saints longer than he did and played Championship football rather than been in Arsenal's reserves in 2005/06 and 2006/07.

Potential ability is set from concpetion in their mothers womb and can never increase(only decrease in the event of serious injury or illness).

Surely if PA can decrease (which it can't in game, in case anyone is wondering) it can increase? Even if a player receives a serious injury, his still has the genetic potential to be a great footballer. Also consider that these days, medication or operations could improve someone's physical ability drastically- for example, if someone had an eye transplant.

Surely if PA can decrease (which it can't in game, in case anyone is wondering)

Yes, it can. Serious injury in FM can reduce a player's PA.

Players should have a "rough" PA out of 15. So with PA of 15 he has no limit to his CA. A PA of 11 would give him a CA of around 145 in his prime.

Yes, it can. Serious injury in FM can reduce a player's PA.

Is this true?? Haven't seen it.

Is this true?? Haven't seen it.

Well it would be hard to notice by just playing the game, as you can't see the underlying changes to player's PA.

PA doesn't go down during injury. It can hurt CA quite a bit although the return to what it was before can be quick.

Case in point: I had Rafael get injured over and over and over again, some injuries fairly serious. I sold him this season - he was back to 178/179. His PA was always 179.

We get so many threads asking for this and all the authors fail to understand what the word "potential" means.

Potential ability is set from concpetion in their mothers womb and can never increase(only decrease in the event of serious injury or illness). No matter how determined a player is and how great the facilities and coaches he has, he won't exceed his potential. Great facilities and coaches don't improve potential, what they do is increase the likelihood a player will fulfill their potential.

There's no such thing as fixed potential, though. It's all perception and human error. Anytime we misjudge a player and underrate his talent, we say, "Oh, he had the talent all along...we just didn't realise it." Aside from database updates, this doesn't happen in FM, which is unfortunate. In the previous threads I've mentioned this solution-

1. The current PA system should be used as the basis for "natural talent." Players would develop in much the same way as in the current system.

2. After the age of 24/25, PA would be dynamic based upon a player's level of performance vs. the level of competition he faces. Each level of reputation for a league would equate to a "max PA" that would cap a player's growth relative to the league he plays in, so no, you won't be seeing 200 PA players as a result of dominating a regional league. Instead, the increased PA should be just enough to attract the interest of a team in a higher league, at which point the player could continue to grow so long as he excels in the new league. More likely, though, the player would either face some hardship in the new league, in which case his PA wouldn't increase (and his CA could actually decrease if he stinks it up.)

I had even made an example of how a player with a max PA of 120 was, by the end of his career (some 10 years or so later) able to raise his PA by 20-25 points. And that was a pretty extreme case, with the player performing rather well most every year despite steadily climbing up several leagues. More realistically, though, I could envision players maybe seeing a 10 point increase or so over the course of their careers. This would be great for coaches in the lower leagues, as there's few things more frustrating than having a player dominate his league but attract no interest from other clubs because his PA is too low.

PA doesn't go down during injury. It can hurt CA quite a bit although the return to what it was before can be quick.

Case in point: I had Rafael get injured over and over and over again, some injuries fairly serious. I sold him this season - he was back to 178/179. His PA was always 179.

I'm sorry, but PA can be reduced on FM if the player sustains a serious and permanent injury. People from SI have also confirmed it to be the case.

Lets take an extreme example to prove the point. If a player lost a leg, his potential would be lower than when he had two legs.

I'm sorry, but PA can be reduced on FM if the player sustains a serious injury. People from SI have also confirmed it to be the case.

Lets take an extreme example to prove the point. If a player lost a leg, his potential would be lower than when he had two legs.

As im quite curious can you show what SI have said to confirm it?

I'm sorry, but PA can be reduced on FM if the player sustains a serious and permanent injury. People from SI have also confirmed it to be the case.

Lets take an extreme example to prove the point. If a player lost a leg, his potential would be lower than when he had two legs.

I don't think that particular injury is actually in the game.

as I think the PA is working like what it should,..

just say a teenager who is 17 years old and have PA for about 180 and his CA is 60..

if the teenager dont have a chance to play or keep injury, i doubt that he'll reach 180 PA..

Contemplate this point, while you are at it.

Think of an absolutely terrible 17 year old in the game, he is complete rubbish playing at one of the tier 9 clubs in England and his PA is 20, while his CA is say 10. Obviously you say he is never going to be destined to do anything. But say, for some extreme circumstances, he was bought by Manchester United and then he trained there nonstop for the next ten years of his life. Do you honestly think he would still remain such a terrible player? While he wouldn't come close to being a world-beater, he would be far beyond the dreadful standards that he was at when he was 17. However, his PA supposedly limits him to 20, so in FM he would remain just terrible despite training at one of the best facilities in the world with world-class coaches.

So, what's the solution here?

if a player is that bad that he has a PA of 20 he isnt any good, regardless of coaches.

All coaches should improve really is CA not PA in my opinion

Theres another thread on this as well and my feelings are that the system should be tweaked so that in general PA's are higher but it becomes harder for players to reach their PA (which should still be fixed).

At the moment i feel like PA is rated based on a players current situation and performances but it doesn't necessarily reflect the ability of that player to grow if their circumstances changed.

I like that idea mate, although some form of variable PA would help. not so much big clubs getting the best regens but the best coaches managing to get the best out of any regen.

Even if the difference from a team with 1stars across board to 5 was only 10% that could be the difference in Joe Bloggs from Macclesfield being 140PA to 155PA.

Well, I've had news messages in the past saying that due to a serious injury, a player will never fulfill his potential. I assume that the game represents this by lowering the player's PA. It would be the simplest way to do it.

Contemplate this point, while you are at it.

Think of an absolutely terrible 17 year old in the game, he is complete rubbish playing at one of the tier 9 clubs in England and his PA is 20, while his CA is say 10. Obviously you say he is never going to be destined to do anything. But say, for some extreme circumstances, he was bought by Manchester United and then he trained there nonstop for the next ten years of his life. Do you honestly think he would still remain such a terrible player? While he wouldn't come close to being a world-beater, he would be far beyond the dreadful standards that he was at when he was 17. However, his PA supposedly limits him to 20, so in FM he would remain just terrible despite training at one of the best facilities in the world with world-class coaches.

So, what's the solution here?

Again, you are misunderstanding what the word "potential" means.

It is how good a player can be if everything goes his way and he fulfills the genes he received at conception.

All world class coaches and facilities would do is increase the likelihood of him fulfilling his potential. It is an oxymoron to say someone has exceeded their potential.

I'm sorry, but PA can be reduced on FM if the player sustains a serious and permanent injury. People from SI have also confirmed it to be the case.

Lets take an extreme example to prove the point. If a player lost a leg, his potential would be lower than when he had two legs.

A good example, because it's possible to lose a leg on Football Manager?

I don't see why his potential should go down anyway. If, like you've mentioned before, if potential is talent, he's simply not going to reach his potential, because his talent is always there - he's just suffered an injury, albeit a serious one.

On the other hand, if potential goes down, then potential isn't talent - so it can't be fixed, because clearly potential is dependent on other things - such as injuries.

Hey guys! I have s suggestion on the PA system. I realised that in real life, no one have a fixed amount of potential on how a player has. If he's a hardworking player, he'll keep on improving, even during or after his peak. And some players do have a tendency to suddenly improve a lot in a short amount of time. I've seen a lot of players in the last few FM that are in this situation: like Theo Walcott, Ben Foster etc. I remember playing fm 05 in the past and they both have mostly single digit technical attributes, and seasons later, they are in Coca Cola League 1 or 2, which in a way, was not predicted by the fm researchers. No, I'm not blaming those researchers. Afterall, no one expected that they will become who they are now.

My suggestion will be, give players a PA that is not fixed. For example, a youth player coming through the ranks, got a CA of 80, and a PA of maybe 140. However, he was snapped up by a club that has the best state of the art academy. With best coaches and academy, training quality is much higher, leading to him being a much better player than before. He should have a PA higher than 140 and his CA may probably exceed 140 in future.

Guys this is just a suggestion. If you guys don't like it you can certainly let me know. But pls go easy on me. I'm not an english speaker, so pardon my bad english

this is surely just another, more comlicated, way of giving us what we already have.

currentlyif a player with pa of 180 is in a league 3 team, he's not going to hit it. perhaps he only gets to CA 100

he trasnferes to a bigger club with better facilities and he is more likely to get his CA to 180.

he drops back down a couple of leagues and his ability drops asa result of training with worse vfacilities.

you ask that the PA is not fixed, so this player in this example starts wth a PA of 100 with his league 3 team. he moves to a bigger club and has the ability to train harder and become a better player, thus allowing him, potentially, to become better, so his PA rises to 180.

he then drops down a few leagues and because of the lower facilities his PA drops down to 150.

now, in't this the same as what is curntly there? a player moves to a bigger club and has better facilities to improve themselves?

I'm sorry, but PA can be reduced on FM if the player sustains a serious and permanent injury. People from SI have also confirmed it to be the case.

I'd also like to see a link regarding this. Sure, the coaches perception of a players potential, i.e. coaching report, may become worse after an injury. But that is because his CA will decrease when he's injured - he can't train after all - and CA (likely in relation to age) has an influence of the potential rating in the coach report from my ingame observations. His actual PA, as in the number assigned to him when he enters the game, does not fluctuate at all.

I'd also like to see a link regarding this. Sure, the coaches perception of a players potential, i.e. coaching report, may become worse after an injury. But that is because his CA will decrease when he's injured - he can't train after all - and CA (likely in relation to age) has an influence of the potential rating in the coach report from my ingame observations. His actual PA, as in the number assigned to him when he enters the game, does not fluctuate at all.

i'ved also never really noticed PA dropping. although tahts because i dont pay much attention to it.

I dont think it really matters whether it drops with a serious injury or not though.

if a plyaer has a long term injury, they cant train and so their ability drops. if they are over 25 years old then their ability to improve deminishes anyway. (players increase their ability at a faster rate below the age of 24). This has the effect of making it look like the serious injury has made the player worse.

this implementation basically has the same effect as having the PA drop due to the injury.

from what i can see, people are arguing over the implementation of CA/PA without realising that, either way, the outcome is basically the same!

so, why would SI spend all that time rewriting the CA/PA module just so that it does different calculations to give us the same result?

I don't see why his potential should go down anyway.

Because a serious injury means he won't be able to his previous potential so it needs to reassessed at a lower level as he won't be able to reach the old number no matter what he does.

I'd also like to see a link regarding this. Sure, the coaches perception of a players potential, i.e. coaching report, may become worse after an injury. But that is because his CA will decrease when he's injured - he can't train after all - and CA (likely in relation to age) has an influence of the potential rating in the coach report from my ingame observations. His actual PA, as in the number assigned to him when he enters the game, does not fluctuate at all.

It does. Imagine a player has a serious knee injury which restricts movement. That would mean his agility rating can't go above a certain number no matter what he does after the injury. Where as before the injury he may have reached that level. Thus the injury means his potential goes down.

Because a serious injury means he won't be able to his previous potential so it needs to reassessed at a lower level as he won't be able to reach the old number no matter what he does.

But I thought potential was innate, from conception, as you said?

If a player has a serious injury, it doesn't mean he's suddenly become less talented - he's got the talent, but simply will never fulfill it.

If you amputated Beethoven's hands, he would still be a musical genius - just that he wouldn't be able to show off what goes on in his mind.

This idea has been suggested in countless other threads over a number of years, and im sure this wont be the last one where someone has "just come up with an idea" along with thousands of others, but for the love of god let it die. SI will change it if they see fit

Matthew Le God, I don't think it has been scientifically proven to confidently say that an individual has a kind of 'fate' type of potential limit.

Sure, we are not all created with equal genes but just the genetics by itself does not limit what we can be.

In other words, genes are not the only thing that determines potential. There is no such thing that restricts us from conception to say that 'this much' is the best you can do if everything goes well.

Through the course of life a lot of different things around us shape and influence us to determine who we are, what we do and how good we are at it.

Which means that certain events in our lives and certain choices we make will change our potential.

If you start in a serious football club at the age of 7, you will have more potential than starting at 15.

If you define 'potential' as an unchangeable fate of an individual, then surely we have to say that everyone has maximum potential. Look at Messi for example. He was born with genes that developed a devastating illness, but he is one of the best players in the world now because through the course of his life he learned to be persistent and had good opportunities with Barcelona.

And there are many others who were born with inferior genes but overcame those limitations through their passion for football and meeting good opportunities. E.g. Park Ji Sung was born with flat feet, which means it hurts to run even a few kilometres. Sure he is not the best player, but one of his strengths is covering a lot of ground during the game.

Currently this is how the PA is determined by the researchers. They look at the player's performance compared to his age, his mental traits, his current club, etc etc.

If you say that PA is the innate restriction from birth, then no one can find that out. Only God will know.