Players switching nationality - Mikel Arteta

was just reading that Mikel Arteta can never play for England because he didnt hold a british passport at the time of him playing for spain at youth level.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8961817.stm

this would suggest the rules in game are gonna have to change. I kinda hope they don't to be honest!

I think this has always been the case hasnt it? I guess Fm needs to adapt by distinguishing between competitive games and friendly games

I'm pretty certain that this already exists in FM as Arteta can play for England in FM. I managed them a while ago and I'm sure I had the chance to select him, but he was too old and nolonger good enough.

Well under 16 and 17 tournaments aren't in the game atm, so I can't see why anything would change.

I'm pretty certain that this already exists in FM as Arteta can play for England in FM. I managed them a while ago and I'm sure I had the chance to select him, but he was too old and nolonger good enough.

This is not the case as the rules state that Arteta would not be able to play for England. FM's rules say otherwise.

That isn't the reason Arteta can't play for England. The real reason is that the British nations do not allow players to be naturalised under the gentleman's agreement. See: Nacho Novo.

gentleman's agreement.

Which is completely watertight compared to FIFA's rules of course.

This is not the case as the rules state that Arteta would not be able to play for England. FM's rules say otherwise.

What are your sources for this? I know for a fact that Ryan Giggs was capped for England at youth level and then went on to play at full level for Wales IRL

That isn't the reason Arteta can't play for England. The real reason is that the British nations do not allow players to be naturalised under the gentleman's agreement. See: Nacho Novo.

I know for sure that Almunia is eligable for England because I capped him

In game is different to real life I capped Engin Bekdemir and Zigoni for England so the agreement does not exist in FM at all.

Rhys williams was a fixture in the welsh junior sides before declaring for australia. Josip Simunic is a Croatian Defender who was born and raised in australia and played in their junior sides. I thought it was only certain which country you could play for when you got a full cap or declared for a certain country (I would only play for england even though my parents are nigerian).

What are your sources for this? I know for a fact that Ryan Giggs was capped for England at youth level and then went on to play at full level for Wales IRL

He played for the schoolboys, Giggs couldn't have played for england at full level even if he wanted to.

I thought it was only certain which country you could play for when you got a full cap or declared for a certain country.

Yes (makes 10 characters)

Which is completely watertight compared to FIFA's rules of course.

Actually, yes. The gentleman's agreement is ratified by FIFA, and if we broke it, England could call up Darren Fletcher or Craig Bellamy. Shortly afterwards, FIFA would force us to play under one banner with one FA as they hate the power of the Home Nations. The sanctity of the Gentleman's Agreement is the only thing that allows the Home Nations to exist.

What are your sources for this? I know for a fact that Ryan Giggs was capped for England at youth level and then went on to play at full level for Wales IRL

I know for sure that Almunia is eligable for England because I capped him

Ryan Giggs played for England schoolboys, which doesn't work in the same way. FWIW, if the player was eligible for the second nation at the time he was "capped" for the first nation other than at senior level, he can switch to that nation, but not any "new" ones he acquires.

Almunia isn't eligible for England, SI got it wrong. You capping him in a computer game does not make it right in real life.

Actually, yes. The gentleman's agreement is ratified by FIFA, and if we broke it, England could call up Darren Fletcher or Craig Bellamy. Shortly afterwards, FIFA would force us to play under one banner with one FA as they hate the power of the Home Nations. The sanctity of the Gentleman's Agreement is the only thing that allows the Home Nations to exist.

Source? The agreement has only been in place for a year, so that seems unlikely.

Source? The agreement has only been in place for a year, so that seems unlikely.

It has been in place for over a century.

It has been in place for over a century.

Err no, no it hasn't.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/30/scotlandfootballteam-craig-levein

This article repeatedly says that the agreement which stops Arteta being called up is just over a year old

Jock shock:

Tartan Ameobi!

A Scotland Cap. Yesterday.

Having so far failed in his quest to convince Andy Carroll to play for Scotland, Craig Levein has now disclosed that fellow Magpie Shola Ameobi was also on his radar:

"The way I understand it, the home associations have an agreement -I'll tell you how I know. I tried to get Shola Ameobi at Newcastle a while back because he has not played for England but has lived in the UK and has a British passport, so I thought he might be able to play for Scotland. But we had changed the rules."

"I just used Ameobi as an example because he was somebody who had a British passport but it fell down because he didn't have the educational qualification."

So what's that about then?

Sky sports news artical

2nd source (the one I quoted)

So someone here is wrong....or everyone is.

Rhys williams was a fixture in the welsh junior sides before declaring for australia. Josip Simunic is a Croatian Defender who was born and raised in australia and played in their junior sides. I thought it was only certain which country you could play for when you got a full cap or declared for a certain country (I would only play for england even though my parents are nigerian).

not to mention Bouzanis who played for greece at youth level but has declared himself for australia and Cahill also represented Samoa at youth level.

Jonathon de Guzman is naturalized and can technically play for Holland (although he hasn't suited for the senior team yet so technically still eligible to play for Canada).

Asmir Begovic played in our youth teams before playing for Bosnia. Same with Daniel Fernandes, now capped with Portugal.

Err no, no it hasn't.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/aug/30/scotlandfootballteam-craig-levein

This article repeatedly says that the agreement which stops Arteta being called up is just over a year old

SCAIG is referring to the Gentleman's Agreement, an informal agreement in which the Home Nations undertook to only call up players who qualified through bloodlines. This agreement has been around for over a century, but as an informal one. The introduction of the five year education rule last year turned the agreement from informal to formal. And it's that ratification that Levein and the article are talking about.

not to mention Bouzanis who played for greece at youth level but has declared himself for australia and Cahill also represented Samoa at youth level.

Both Dean Bouzanis and Tim Cahill were born in Australia. So because of that they obviously already had an Australian passport so the rule we are talking about doesn't apply to them.

Both Dean Bouzanis and Tim Cahill were born in Australia. So because of that they obviously already had an Australian passport so the rule we are talking about doesn't apply to them.

good point i should say vidosic then who was born in croatia but is playing for australia.

i read that players can only play for a different country at international level if they were in possesion of a passport for the country they wish to play for at the time of being in the U21's.

just found it

Article 18.1.a within the Fifa statutes outlines that any player who has represented their country in an official competition, at whatever level, would at that time need to have held a passport for the country they later wish to play for in order to be permitted to make the switch.

good point i should say vidosic then who was born in croatia but is playing for australia.

Maybe but he has lived in Australia since he was a toddler and he was actually ineligible to play for Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Vido%C5%A1i%C4%87#International_career

Oh, and Teal Bunbury was born Canadian, has a Canadian father, but has American citizenship, so he's eligible for Canada and the US...

Maybe but he has lived in Australia since he was a toddler and he was actually ineligible to play for Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Vido%C5%A1i%C4%87#International_career

thats not because of living in australia but by 21 i believe players have to have made their decision so by only representing australia at youth level before 21 he could only play for them at senior level.

About the gentlemans agreement, the one where you need a bloodline

What about players who move here when they are say, 5 years old, and who neither of their parents are English?

(Emmanuel Frimpong, etc)

Maybe but he has lived in Australia since he was a toddler and he was actually ineligible to play for Croatia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dario_Vido%C5%A1i%C4%87#International_career

Using wikipedia to verify information is a dangerous concept my man. Wikipedia says that Cristiano ronaldo, THAT cristiano ronaldo, was eligable to play for australia due to having grandparents with aussie passports. Oh how I wish Australia had known that earlier.

I thought the gentleman's agreement only applied to players that were British? Why else would it matter to FIFA otherwise?

That isn't the reason Arteta can't play for England. The real reason is that the British nations do not allow players to be naturalised under the gentleman's agreement. See: Nacho Novo.

I thought Novo hasn't played for England (or was it Scotland) because he isn't good enough.

As far as I know it isn't true, as Ronaldo_Rooney said Almunia could play for England if he wanted to. I saw an interview with Almunia around a year ago on this very matter.

But has Almunia been capped at youth levels by spain?? I dont think he has but could be wrong. In which case IRL the only thing stopping him would be the gentlemans agreemant (which is not in place in FM hence why you can cap him)

Using wikipedia to verify information is a dangerous concept my man. Wikipedia says that Cristiano ronaldo, THAT cristiano ronaldo, was eligable to play for australia due to having grandparents with aussie passports. Oh how I wish Australia had known that earlier.

There is absolutely no way he would even condsider playing for Australia whether Portugal wanted him or not.

Why has this thread turned into a debate about some 'gentlemens' agreement rule??

The OP has a link to a story outlining FIFA legislation that prevents Arteta playing for England.

End of story

About the gentlemans agreement, the one where you need a bloodline

What about players who move here when they are say, 5 years old, and who neither of their parents are English?

(Emmanuel Frimpong, etc)

Frimpong was educated in England for 5 years under the age of 21 (might not be 21) which makes him eligible I believe..

About the gentlemans agreement, the one where you need a bloodline

What about players who move here when they are say, 5 years old, and who neither of their parents are English?

(Emmanuel Frimpong, etc)

The recent adaptation of the gentleman's agreement (which is mentioned in here) would mean that they would be eligible if they had been educated in the country for at least 5 years before the age of 18, even without a bloodline.

I thought Novo hasn't played for England (or was it Scotland) because he isn't good enough.

As far as I know it isn't true, as Ronaldo_Rooney said Almunia could play for England if he wanted to. I saw an interview with Almunia around a year ago on this very matter.

No he can't. No he can't! No he ****ing can't. The sooner SI sort out eligability for the Home Nations in FM the better this and the Football Forum will be

But has Almunia been capped at youth levels by spain?? I dont think he has but could be wrong. In which case IRL the only thing stopping him would be the gentlemans agreemant (which is not in place in FM hence why you can cap him)

The Gentleman's Agreement is in FM, that's why you can't call up a Scottish player if you're managing England. It just isn't implemented correctly.

And by the way, it is as much of a rule that cannot be broken as the Laws of the Game.

I can call up Aaron Spear to the England squad despite him being Scottish and having 21 youth caps for them.

Aaron Spear was born in Plymouth..

So if a player is eligible for both nations in real life he is fair game for either country even if he has been capped at youth level?

If that player was eligible for both nations when he was capped at youth level the first time, yes - thats the current rule.

I also called up Zigoni to the England squad and he had one cap for Italian youths, he then moved to Burnley for 6 years and gained English nationality. So is this rule not in FM properly?

Just saw the other posts about this rule not being in FM.

What are your sources for this? I know for a fact that Ryan Giggs was capped for England at youth level and then went on to play at full level for Wales IRL

I know for sure that Almunia is eligable for England because I capped him

Because at the time he played for England, he was Eligable for Wales due to blood and the combined passport. Obv. the gentlemans agreement in reference to bloodlines is why a Welshman with no English past can't declare for Scotland (for example) because he holds a UK passport blanketing all 4 home countries.

And because Arteta was NOT eligible for England *when* he represented Spain, he can't play for England now. Had he spent 5 years in Scunthorpe as a kid and picked up a UK passport then he could have.

Interestingly, under the new rules Ryan Giggs would have been eligible for England had they been in place at the time.

Interestingly, under the new rules Ryan Giggs would have been eligible for England had they been in place at the time.

I think he's said before that he wouldn't have played for England anyway.. Though he could have made such a difference, considering the general quality of our left wing in the last 15 years.

I think he's said before that he wouldn't have played for England anyway.. Though he could have made such a difference, considering the general quality of our left wing in the last 15 years.

Yes, there was that stopping him

He would have been superb though.

If that player was eligible for both nations when he was capped at youth level the first time, yes - thats the current rule.

No, this is wrong. If a player has dual nationality and has played at youth level for one of those nationalities he IS barred from representing the other. This is what Article 18.2 is all about.

In fact to further summarise, Article 15 states -

If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several Associations’ teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:

(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) at “A” international level for his current Association, and if at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the Association’s team for which he wishes to play.

(b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association. A player may exercise this right only once.

Under this premise Mikel Arteta would be unable to play for England as he was not British before he was 21. The same would apply for example with Fabregas, had he not played for Spain.

"The Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of the EU citizens introduces the right of permanent residence for EU citizens after five years of continuous residence. They will no longer be subject to any conditions on the exercise of their right of residence, with virtually complete equality of treatment with nationals."

This Directive does not give nationality, simply residence and to represent a National Team you need nationaity not residence. An example of someone with nationality and not residence is Owen Hargreaves, he never lived for 5 years in England yet he was an English National and thus could play for England.

What FM fails to recognise is British overseas territory nationals, which are British but not EU nationals therefore they would still be unable to move freely within the EU and would have to reside in Britain in order to gain full status. However there are no examples of EU footballers changing nationality to another EU member state for which they have no connection (family, birth, duality). So if such an issue arose it would clearly be brought to the EU Parliament by whoever lost out as some member states do not allow for dual nationality within given countries.

No, this is wrong. If a player has dual nationality and has played at youth level for one of those nationalities he IS barred from representing the other. This is what Article 18.2 is all about.

In fact to further summarise, Article 15 states -

If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several Associations’ teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international matches to the Association of another country of which he holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:

(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) at “A” international level for his current Association, and if at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the Association’s team for which he wishes to play.

(b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition in which he has already played for his previous Association. A player may exercise this right only once.

Under this premise Mikel Arteta would be unable to play for England as he was not British before he was 21. The same would apply for example with Fabregas, had he not played for Spain.

"The Directive 2004/38/EC on the right of the EU citizens introduces the right of permanent residence for EU citizens after five years of continuous residence. They will no longer be subject to any conditions on the exercise of their right of residence, with virtually complete equality of treatment with nationals."

This Directive does not give nationality, simply residence and to represent a National Team you need nationaity not residence. An example of someone with nationality and not residence is Owen Hargreaves, he never lived for 5 years in England yet he was an English National and thus could play for England.

What FM fails to recognise is British overseas territory nationals, which are British but not EU nationals therefore they would still be unable to move freely within the EU and would have to reside in Britain in order to gain full status. However there are no examples of EU footballers changing nationality to another EU member state for which they have no connection (family, birth, duality). So if such an issue arose it would clearly be brought to the EU Parliament by whoever lost out as some member states do not allow for dual nationality within given countries.

Wasn't Kevin-Prince Boateng 23 when he elected to play for Ghana despite representing Germany at youth level?

The articles you've quoted are referring to full international matches, not under 21s, under 19s etc.

Article 15 basically players can't switch nationality, apart from those who meet the criteria in article 18.

Article 18 says, as you quoted:

(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) at “A” international level for his current Association, and if at the time of his first full or partial appearance in an international match in an official competition for his current Association, he already had the nationality of the Association’s team for which he wishes to play.

So, if a player hasn't been capped, and he was dual-national when he first played an international game (so anything upto "B" international), he may elect to switch associations.

(b) doesn't seem particularly relevant, only to really say a player couldn't play a u21 qualifier with two countries for example as far as i can tell.

Therefore, Arteta is ineligible because he wasn't a British citizen when he played for Spain in an u16 tournament.

I don't know where you have the 21 thing from, because that isn't mentioned in the statute as far as I can tell.

Link to FIFA statute: http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/01/24/fifastatuten2009_e.pdf

He would also be ineligible because of the home nations agreement that a player has to be educated in the country for 5 years under the age of 18, as dafuge said earlier.

This prevents the scenario where a foreign player could come to England, gain nationality and be eligible for England, Scotland, Wales and NI - because they become British citizens, rather than just English.

If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several Associations’ teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday,

Its clearly in the wording. Arteta would not qualify because he never held the other nationality (in this case) British up to the age of 21.

Kevin-Prince Boateng is from Ghanian descent so likely that he would have dual nationality from birth. Even if he didnt, its a non EU member state and the residency issue doesnt apply. Also he could adopt Ghanain nationality quite easily if he had to as he has parentage who is Ghanain. I understand the whole he's German comment but his dad is Ghanain so this is nothing at all similar to the Arteta issue.

The home nations agreement has nothing to do with it. It only applies to Club level as in Home Schooled or whatever you get when you register for European competitions. As I said before there is confusion on the 5 year rule, it relates to residency not nationality, they are very different concepts.

And because Arteta was NOT eligible for England *when* he represented Spain, he can't play for England now. Had he spent 5 years in Scunthorpe as a kid and picked up a UK passport then he could have.

He still couldn't have.

Article 16.1.d of the FIFA statutes on this matter is the important one. It refers primarily to the British gentleman's agreement.