S.I Please introduce players' country preferences.

It seems to me that at the moment players will go anywhere providing reputation is high enough, which for a sports simulation seems wrong to me. I don't think that the majority of really elite players in football given a choice would choose to come to England, with it's weather, lifestyle and style of play. Maybe, maybe a London club could entice one, but a northern club?

I think that a lot of latin american and southern european players would reject a bigger name, more moneyed English club in favour of a slightly less renowned European side. So is it time for the game to have players with country preferences in their profile?

I know that people are excited about dynamic league rep, but surely, no matter how great you've made Scunthorpe, the most of the very best players aren't going to want to leave la Dolce Vita for a cold country where it rains 10 months of the year and the only places open after 5 o' clock are tescos, the pub and the kebab van? (slight exaggeration )

Of course, some always will and in some foreign country's the premier league is probably the number one, but for most players, only speaking as an observer, I'm guessing it's definitely not.

I realise it's a game and that the biggest market is probably England, but if you're looking for accuracy, which I am, I don't think you can leave out country preferences.

p.s if you are trying to get a real superstar to sign and you have a remaining wage of say over a million a week, why would the chairmen not let you use that on getting him limiting you to say 150,000 a week), when he's willing to let you use it for signing say five normal players? Sometimes signing the best can change a whole club. Ask Napoli. And for a million a week. I'd be willing to go to Scunthorpe.

probably.

In the end it's all down to reputation though. So if the club is big but the country has a low rep then I'd agree - it'd be a no go (Celtic, Rangers etc). But these should change based on european trends and world rankings etc. Reputation should be dynamic at all levels in the game

I know the database has a setting for a city's reputation, does that not already play a part in deciding, along with club rep and league rep if a particular player will be enticed by an offer ? If it doesn't it should, so as well as dynamic club rep and dynamic league rep should we not also have dynamic city rep ?

I think weather and the city's/town's appeal are already taken into consideration by prospective signings, and have been since the first FM. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Language is clearly taken into consideration as well.

However, I don't see the problem with elite continental players coming to a top English club. Think Deco, Shevchenko, Ballack, or Silva and Balotelli recently (and some of them actually signed from higher rep clubs).

Plenty of good players, even some genuine greats like Shevchenko have joined towards the end of their careers, but I still dont think the very best join at their peak. Would Shevchenko have gone to England, given continental interest, at the stage he was at in 1999?

Van Basten, Gullit, Maradona, Boban, Platini, Ronaldo, Romario, Zidane, Ibrahimovic, Messi, Kaka, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho etc have all chosen to play elsewhere from England exclusively except Gullit late on.

Since Kevin Keegan in 1979, only 2 players, Owen and C. Ronaldo have won the Ballon d'Or whilst playing for an English team, and C. Ronaldo left soon after. For a league that is ranked the number one in F.M, that's a very very low percentage.

Looking at the figures, surely you can conclude that the very best, at their very best, do not play in England. I think this should be reflected in the game.

They haven't 'chosen', they probably got very few offers. During the time of Van Basten, Maradona, and Platini, English teams were banned from Europe=no chance of signing them. The Brazilians listed on there and Zidane, played in Spain when it was more highly rated. Messi won't leave Barcelona because of his love for the club. Ibra is overrated. I'll give you Kaka, since he's the only one, (to my knowledge) to turn a move to England down.

Some of the very best clearly do play in England. Cesc Fabregas, RVP, David Silva, Ronaldo (obviously left now) Didier Drogba, Fernando Torres etc are all amongst the best in the world, so I don't agree with your claim. There are also bigger concerns for players coming to England, mostly tax issues, and the fact that work permits are tougher to get in England that in say Spain, where Brazilians can 'discover' spanish or portugese relatives.

I think you're just here to have a dig about England tbh, and you don't have any concerns related to the game at all, and are in fact quite ignorant.

Mascherano wants to leave, Fabregas wants to leave (allegedly), Robinho wants to leave (allegedly), at the world cup Torres struggled to get in the Spanish team, Silva and Van Persie are a rung below the very elite imo and as you say C. Ronaldo wanted to leave.

I don't see how it's ignorant to say that the very best prefer continental clubs, history proves it. Maybe I am wrong, but i'm not attempting to explain anything away, I just look at where the best have always played and it isn't England. If the game is an accurate sim, it should reflect this imo.

Also regarding Zlatan, he's won about 7 consecutive titles with Ajax, Juventus, Inter and Barca, that's some record. I realise people in England don't seem to appreciate him as much as elsewhere (another argument for the game to distinguish between countries imo), but he has a record and talent to rival or better anyone in the world imo.

And there is no need to be abusive either, you have your view, I have mine.

Torres played every game at the WC, don't see how that's struggling to get in the team. I didn't mention Mascherano or Robinho, if Robinho is world class, so is RVP. Ronaldo leaving may have had something to do with the reported £250,000 a week wage at Madrid.

Barcelona don't seem to rate Ibrahimovic to highly either, and I've already explained why players may not want to come to England, ie tax/work permit issues, and why some world class players didn't play in England, i.e aftermath of Heysel, yet you failed to address these points.

Also, the EPL is not ranked number one in the game. It's ranked number one IN REAL LIFE. See the UEFA coefficients for more details.

Gaizka Mendieta went to Boro. I thought that was the epitome of an English side luring a big name star.

And Juninho. Oh and Alen Boksic

Torres: maybe if you include being a sub.

As for the '80's Napoli had never been in the European cup, Maradona went there. Milan hadn't won Serie A for about 10 years pre Gullit and Van Basten, so no certain European Cup participation there (only champions got in in them days). Not sure Udinese were ever a powerhouse but Zico went there, likewise Socrates at Fiorentina.

English clubs were back in Europe by the very early '90's I think, and still none of the superstars of the game came to England (maybe Bergkamp, but he'd already tried Serie A and not really triumphed).

And whilst things may have soured at Barca only last year they thought so highly of Ibrahimovic they gave Inter 40 mill and Eto'o, which is quite a lot and Milan are certainly very keen to get him it seems.

As for tax, I don't know enough about it, except that it's less I think in Spain than Italy. I don't know about England, but I do know that given the chance to sign someone like messi, Ronaldo, Sneijder etc I'm guessing tax wouldn't be an issue for some of the big spending clubs in England.

As for work permits, you can make a case for exceptional talent I believe or send to a euro club on loan, but these are only young players, not the very best- Ronaldo and Romario went to PSV, THEN to a big euro club- (hint) not England and yes they were in Europe then.

Big players, Ballon d'Or winners don't play in England and if they are, they leave. Keegan-Germany. Owen-Spain. C.Ronaldo-Spain. It has always been this way and i'm guessing no matter how much money is thrown around, will always probably be so and this should be reflected in the game imo.

I can't see how this can be up for debate?

Oh yeah. And so did Christian Karembeu.

Boro must be one heck of a town!

Neither were top top draw players, Juninho came from Brazil and went on to Spain and Boksic spent his 20's on the continent and came when he was 30. Mendieta was 30 ish and hadn't exactly been a huge success on leaving Valencia, if he had come from Valencia straight to the north east at his peak, not to Lazio, you would have a point.

But, the point really was only about superstar players though.

How did this descend from Ballon d'Or to a 30 ish Christian Karambeu?

The Ballon d'Or is not the be all and end all of 'what makes a good player'

Thierry Henry as a world class player? Was nothing before he came to England, but was pipped 3 times for the Ballon, twice unfairly IMO.

Ronaldinho would have been a Man Utd player over Barcelona if Gill had gone up in wages and price.

You could make a case for players leaving every country under the conditions you've specified. It's a one-sided view.

but unarguable in terms of the history books, surely?

And dont forget Henry was one of the hottest, most covetted players around at Monaco and went to Juve.

then came to England.

How do you define superstar players? I presume you use awards to benchmark it, but I don't think that's the be all and end all.

Ruud van Nistelrooy and Thierry Henry spent the peak of their careers in England. Yes they went to Spain later, but they weren't at their peak after England.

Carlos Tevez too is doing pretty well in England.

Yes England do have some things against it (work permits, taxes etc) but it's not as bad as you make it out to be.

Look through this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_Premier_League_players

Don't tell me you can't find ONE world class player.

@Jason

Surprisingly I do count coming on as a sub as 'playing', especially as he only came on as a sub in 2 games.

English clubs were back by the 1990s, although there was the inevitable hangover from this, e.g less money.

Yeah and once Barcelona had had a good look at him, guess what they found? He's overrated. Milan are in no way the team they used to be.

Then why are you commenting? Tax in England is WAAAAYYYY higher than in Italy and Spain

Work permits are only in place in England.

English football has only been the best for a few years. Throught the 1990's and early 2000's, it was Italy/Spain, maybe Germany. SO OF COURSE PLAYERS BACK THEN DIDN'T COME TO ENGLAND.

You only look at the winners of the ballon d'or, is second best player in the world not good enough for you? 2003, Thierry Henry came 2nd, 2005 Lampard was second, Gerrard was third, 2006 Henry was third, 2008 Torres was third.

I can't see how this can be up for debate? LOL

Tbh Jason, you're just trolling, and you clearly have something against England/the English.

As for the Boro players, THIS IS MIDDLESBOROUGH WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. They were relegation candidates, that's why the players who went to them were worthy of mention.

personally i think that these players who have made their name in england have moved to spain because clubs like madrid and barcelona throw a lot of money around.

I don't think that this is a great idea.

Firstly, the attractiveness of a place is in the game already and being used.

Secondly, whether a player wants to play in a certain country is usually depending on his style of play. Then actually it should work the other way around. A purely technical player should be more likely to be approached by a Spanish club than by an English club because he fits better there. This might be different if a manager with a certain style manages an English team.

It should be clubs and managers being interested more in certain player types than the players having preferences as other than nationality (which is used as well by the game) their style of play will also have a huge influence on their preference anyway.

I have a feeling most players would come to England given the money. Just look at City. Viera, Balotelli, Tevez, Silva, Boateng, Toure. So it's nothing to do with a country preference, it's to do with money and reputation.

I'm sure there's a massive list of international players that have come to England. To name just a few:

Adebayor, Henry, Gallas, Toure, Fabregas, Robben, Bergkamp, Reina, Mascherano, Torres, Lehmann, Schmeichel, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Martins, Van der Sar, Evra, Hargreaves, Deco, Ballack, Anelka, Drogba, Essien, Malouda, Bosingwa, Nasri, Van Persie, Arshavin, Vermaelen, Pires, Overmars, Hamann, Riise, Alonso, Garcia, Aurelio, Cantona, Stam, Silvestre, Barthez, Gullit, Di Matteo, Vialli, Zola, Poyet, Desially, Deschamps, Gudjohnsson, Hasselbaink, Makelele, Carvalho.

Should I go on, or does that win this argument?

I have a feeling most players would come to England given the money. Just look at City. Viera, Balotelli, Tevez, Silva, Boateng, Toure. So it's nothing to do with a country preference, it's to do with money and reputation.

I'm sure there's a massive list of international players that have come to England. To name just a few:

Adebayor, Henry, Gallas, Toure, Fabregas, Robben, Bergkamp, Reina, Mascherano, Torres, Lehmann, Schmeichel, Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Berbatov, Martins, Van der Sar, Evra, Hargreaves, Deco, Ballack, Anelka, Drogba, Essien, Malouda, Bosingwa, Nasri, Van Persie, Arshavin, Vermaelen, Pires, Overmars, Hamann, Riise, Alonso, Garcia, Aurelio, Cantona, Stam, Silvestre, Barthez, Gullit, Di Matteo, Vialli, Zola, Poyet, Desially, Deschamps, Gudjohnsson, Hasselbaink, Makelele, Carvalho.

Should I go on, or does that win this argument?

It gets my vote anyway.

I see the clubs and managers choosing a certain type of player as the more likely cause for some players going to England rather than to Spain or vice versa.

Obviously exceptions exist, but clubs like Arsenal, Liverpool or Man City have foreign managers who may prefer a different approach than looking at physical stat foremost.

1. I am not trolling, whatever that is.

2. yes he was sub for only 2 games, but they were the world cup semi and final (i think), so quite important. So maybe he wasn't so crucial to the team at that point?

but that was never the point.

I am only referring to the very best few players at any one time. For example at the champions league draw yesterday, out of all the winners of the best players in each position, none I believe played in England. Of course there are hundreds of foreign players happy to come to England, but not usually those who would be in the top half a dozen at any time who came up for transfer, that's all i'm saying. MOST, not all, would prefer the big continental clubs, if possible, I believe.

And yes, lots of very very good players have played in the EPL, but how many of those:

a) were over 30. hey we all like a nice big final pay day.

b) had tried serie a or wherever and flopped. How many here knew that the media apparently (source wikipedia) called the worst player of the week award, the ''Bergkamp of the week''?

c) came from a smaller league, made their name and then left for overseas, e.g Overmars, Petit, Anelka

If Real Madrid, Barca have a huge superstar, a Zidane/Messi type at the age of 25/26 how many people could say that he would be likely to try for a move to England? at 30+ though, maybe.

Whereas as we've seen if that player played for Man Utd or Arsenal etc the reverse might very well be true.

Try as I might I cannot see that this is not obvious. But it is obviously not the consensus, so I'll leave it

p.s Milan may not be what they were, but they still won the champions league 3 years ago, whereas Arsenal and Chelsea never have. Ever. And Serie A during it's supposed post '06 ''dip'' has won 2 out of the last 4 champions league. And i'm pretty sure that in the FM database that the EPL is the highest rated league, which i obviously disagree with, and Milan, arguably the fashion capital of the world has a less than maximum attraction rating I think. Which I also disagree with.

Maybe that's because Barca and Real Madrid etc are willing to throw stupid money at players. English clubs never did. But now that City do, you've seen Balotelli (20), Silva (24) and Boateng (21) move here from Italy, Spain and Germany. And what's more that goes even more against what you're saying, because Manchester is in the perpetually rainy North. It's all about money.

And which one of them is in the top few players in the world currently then?

Kaka was, and he didn't go.

Ronaldo was and he left.

And the 2011 ballon d'or goes to Jerome Boateng....

So has lionel messi ever moved to England on your game Jason?

I may be wrong but didn't Balotelli just win the Italian treble? Does David Silva have a World Cup winners medal? And did Jerome Boateng finish 3rd in the World Cup this year?

All very sought after players who chose to come to England.

Since you keep going on about the Ballon D'or:

2001, 1st place: Michael Owen (Liverpool)

2003, 2nd place: Thierry Henry (Arsenal)

2005, 2nd place: Frank Lampard (Chelsea)

2005, 3rd place: Steven Gerrard (Liverpool)

2006, 3rd place: Thierry Henry (Arsenal)

2007, 2nd place: Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United)

2008, 1st place: Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United)

Your argument isn't holding up I'm afraid.

Besides which, his argument seems to be more to do with 'Ballon D'or winners shouldn't come from England' rather than 'Top players shouldn't go to England'. Clearly just a racist

I may be wrong but didn't Balotelli just win the Italian treble? Does David Silva have a World Cup winners medal? And did Jerome Boateng finish 3rd in the World Cup this year?

All very sought after players who chose to come to England.

Since you keep going on about the Ballon D'or:

2001, 1st place: Michael Owen (Liverpool)

2003, 2nd place: Thierry Henry (Arsenal)

2005, 2nd place: Frank Lampard (Chelsea)

2005, 3rd place: Steven Gerrard (Liverpool)

2006, 3rd place: Thierry Henry (Arsenal)

2007, 2nd place: Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United)

2008, 1st place: Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United)

Your argument isn't holding up I'm afraid.

You can't argue with the facts.... but I'm sure that Jason will attempt to, mind you. :-)

My argument is that the very top players (only a few of those around at any one time) don't choose and never have chosen to play in England at the very peak of their careers, if at all. Plenty of great players do, but the very very best don't. Most of those players you mentioned were placed in the Ballon D'or, they didn't win it.

Since George Best, I think only 2 players playing in England won the award, not placed, won- and they both left soon afterwards. And Afced this has nothing to do with anyone's nationality, just choice of club.

Just to clarlify, this only refers to a few players at any one time, from however far back you go.

Puskas, Di Stefano, Cruyff, Maradona, Romario, Ronaldo, Van Basten, Maldini, Kaka, Buffon, Messi etc.

My argument is that the very top players (only a few of those around at any one time) don't choose and never have chosen to play in England at the very peak of their careers, if at all. Plenty of great players do, but the very very best don't. Most of those players you mentioned were placed in the Ballon D'or, they didn't win it.

The very top players? According to the Ballon D'or (or The Bible as you call it) since 2001, at least one of the top 3 players in Europe has played in England in all but 4 years.

but the winners, the real elite, mostly didnt.

and the two that did, left.

irrelevant really, but how many premier league players started the world cup final?

So your argument is "The 'best' player in Europe rarely plays in England, but when he does he always leaves afterwards".

That's about it, yes, though I would hesitate to say ''always'' but I do think that for most European and South American players playing in England for whatever club is not and never will be a dream the way that playing for Madrid or Milan is.

And so given the choice, they wouldn't and haven't come.

Nigel de Jong, Robin Van Persie, Heitinga, Kuyt all started the World Cup final, Fabregas and Torres came on as subs, van Bronckhorst played in England at his peak. What are you arguing here? So Ballon d'or winners rarely come from England, how does this relate to the game?

And what choice? When have Ballon D'or winners ever turned England down? Clubs haven't even gone in for them

Also according to you Romario isnt world class, as he never won the ballon d'or, neither did Boban, and neither has Ibrahimovic, yet you cite these players as world class players who never came to England.

Your argument is ridiculous.

Your argument is ridiculous.

Don't forget Alonso (played in England at his peak), David Silva, Pepe Reina, Arbeloa, Ooijer, and Babel were all on the bench. Although I bet that won't matter because they aren't in the top 1 player in the world according to Ballon D'or.

Jason, your argument is starting to get slightly tedious, and I'm sure theres some sort of 'under the surface' dig at England here, but on topic.

Messi did not sign for Barcelona as a world class player, he became that good at Barcelona.

Buffon would not leave Italy as it might have harmed his chances at playing internationally.

You also mentioned Overmars, who joined Arsenal just after major success with Ajax, so he was at the top of his game when he joined. Yes he left, but he played in England for some of his prime.

Ronaldo left too, after playing the best football of his life, and achieving all he could at United.

Kaka went to Real Madrid instead of Man City, and who can blame him, compare the two clubs history, and the fact Real offered champions league football.

Based on what you say about 'elite', does this not include the Wayne Rooneys, Drogbas, Torres, Gerrards, Fabregas, Scholes, Giggs, Zolas, Bergkamps, Cantonas, and I'm pretty sure i'm missing alot of great players here.

As for the World Cup final squads, obviously a lot of players were based in Spain, spanish national team after all.

After that, and i'm sure this has already been mentioned, players do take into account attractiveness of the city when they move to club, players even mention 'looking forward to living in a more metroplitan area' and stuff like that.

Also, for this to be implemented in Football Manager, too many different things would have to be taken into account and I don't know if it would be worth the effort for such a small feature. For example, style of play, language and various other factors.

If Real Madrid, Barca have a huge superstar, a Zidane/Messi type at the age of 25/26 how many people could say that he would be likely to try for a move to England? at 30+ though, maybe.

Whereas as we've seen if that player played for Man Utd or Arsenal etc the reverse might very well be true.

What kind of an argument is this? Obviously if someone already plays for a big club at that age why would he want to move?

Do you see Rooney moving to Spain/Italy soon? It works both ways man.

I don't know why they would want to move, you might want to ask C. Ronaldo, or Overmars, Petit, Vieira (remember the transfer saga every summer?), Anelka, Fabregas (allegedly), Mascherano, Robinho (allegedly), Flamini, Mcmanaman, Gascoigne, Platt etc.

didn't one player this summer say he would swim to Spain to play for Madrid?

How many leading Madrid, Barca, Milan, Juve, Inter etc have gone or tried to go the other way at their peak?

You're ignoring the many examples other people have shown and only picking the examples that suit your side of the argument. Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard, Torres, Drogba, Reina, Henry, Essien, Van der Sar, etc etc. Your point is so specific that it only works if we can't think of any examples that go against your rule of "The 'best' player in Europe rarely plays in England at his peak for very long".

You say only 'elite' players then you use McManaman and Flamini as example.

Wow.

But surely that's the point! Except for C. Ronaldo, the best player in Europe (apologies for overlooking Michael Owen) NEVER plays in England, whereas dozens have played in italy or spain. Lots of good players are in England, but not the very best?

man it's tiring being in the minority of one. I think i'd better quit whilst i'm behind! thanks for the debate all.

ah, but even they would rather play on the continent GazTheDood. Most would, but not all can imo.

I don't know why they would want to move, you might want to ask C. Ronaldo, or Overmars, Petit, Vieira (remember the transfer saga every summer?), Anelka, Fabregas (allegedly), Mascherano, Robinho (allegedly), Flamini, Mcmanaman, Gascoigne, Platt etc.

didn't one player this summer say he would swim to Spain to play for Madrid?

How many leading Madrid, Barca, Milan, Juve, Inter etc have gone or tried to go the other way at their peak?

Ronaldo - Always wanted to go Madrid anyway

Overmars, Petit, Vieira - It was Wenger's decision to sell. They were past it post-Arsenal

Anelka - Didn't stay long abroad did he? Ended up back in England anyway.

Fabregas - I'll wait till he leaves. But Barcelona is where he came from anyway.

Mascherano - Cannot settle. Excepted

Robinho - Out of place at City.

Flamini - Left because Wenger didn't offer him a new contract

McManaman, Gascoigne, Platt- Ha! Are you kidding me?

All have been disproven. Name me ONE top Premier League star that has left at his peak (25/26 by your words) for Italy or Spain, with the exception of Ronaldo.

Gerrard is still around. Rooney is still around. Lampard, Ash Cole, Terry is still around. Fab and van Persie, still around. Tevez still around. Torres, still around. Essien and Drogba, still around.

etc etc.

man it's tiring being in the minority of one

Never wondered at any point why that might be?

English forum?

BenArsenal. Gary Lineker. And of course, my point is, they weren't here to leave anyway.