Wide play in FM11?

To me the single biggest glitch in the ME of FM10 has to be the lack of impact of wide play and wide players.

Looking around tactics which concentrate on the middle of the pitch seem to be much more succesful in the game while irl the opposite is true and all modern tactics have two players on the wings and rely on them for offensive power.

Just a few examples: A tactic like the 4-4-2 diamond is very much inferior against an opposing 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 and yet in FM10 this tactic can help you to win anything. Or the 3 central striker tactic, almost unseen irl, will rip any defense apart. Vice versa a 4-3-3 (real life 4-3-3 including wingers, not what the TC calls a 4-3-3) in the game will rely on the single central striker way too much to score.

Of course I'm sure that for FM11 the ME will have been looked at as always, but I just wanted to take the opportunity to stress this issue once again and hopefully get a confirmation already that this part of the game will be improved

I have noticed this too but only since the 10.3 patch. Before that I was regularly having my strikers power in headers from Winger's crosses. However 10.3 hit and I had to resort to a narrow 4-3-1-2 formation with no wingers due to it.

To me the single biggest glitch in the ME of FM10 has to be the lack of impact of wide play and wide players.

Looking around tactics which concentrate on the middle of the pitch seem to be much more succesful in the game while irl the opposite is true and all modern tactics have two players on the wings and rely on them for offensive power.

Just a few examples: A tactic like the 4-4-2 diamond is very much inferior against an opposing 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 and yet in FM10 this tactic can help you to win anything. Or the 3 central striker tactic, almost unseen irl, will rip any defense apart. Vice versa a 4-3-3 (real life 4-3-3 including wingers, not what the TC calls a 4-3-3) in the game will rely on the single central striker way too much to score.

Of course I'm sure that for FM11 the ME will have been looked at as always, but I just wanted to take the opportunity to stress this issue once again and hopefully get a confirmation already that this part of the game will be improved

Yes, I completely agree with you jayahr.

I'm playing CM/FM series since CM03/04 and have always been using 4-4-2 with AMR & AML and it was always so effective and especially in FM09.

FM10 frustrated me so much with it's effective narrow formations which I can't stand, especially 4-4-2 Narrow Diamond. 3rd patch improved wide play just a bit, but still 99% of wingers' crosses would end up blocked by opp. full-backs. That would result with huge amount of corners, which are BTW useless in FM.

4-4-2 is still the best formation in the world IMO, still most used, most popular and most balanced one. Anyway, I honestly hope that ME in FM11 will be the best so far and most realistc so far.

I have noticed this too but only since the 10.3 patch. Before that I was regularly having my strikers power in headers from Winger's crosses. However 10.3 hit and I had to resort to a narrow 4-3-1-2 formation with no wingers due to it.

SI said that they improved wide play in 3rd patch, but they tweaked accuracy of heading. It's harder for players to score headers if they are challenged. And as they are challenged in 99% of cases they rarely score.

Looking around tactics which concentrate on the middle of the pitch seem to be much more succesful in the game while irl the opposite is true and all modern tactics have two players on the wings and rely on them for offensive power.

Just a few examples: A tactic like the 4-4-2 diamond is very much inferior against an opposing 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1 and yet in FM10 this tactic can help you to win anything. Or the 3 central striker tactic, almost unseen irl, will rip any defense apart. Vice versa a 4-3-3 (real life 4-3-3 including wingers, not what the TC calls a 4-3-3) in the game will rely on the single central striker way too much to score.

I'd argue the opposite is true - most modern tactics used by top sides lack traditional wide, touchline hugging wingers. Most modern day wingers aren't even proper wingers, they're more like side forwards that occasionally drift out to the touchline, but generally play a lot more central or look to push into the middle.

Modern 4-3-3/4-5-1 in itself is hardly a wide formation, and it usually relies on fullbacks to provide the width and do almost everything that the traditional winger used to do (stick to the touchline, overlap or even beat opposing fullbacks and provide crosses). As does the 4-4-2 diamond, for that matter. In fact, one could argue that Barcelona's 4-3-3 is irl a lot closer to the 3 central forwards shape than two wingers and a striker one. Messi is certainly no winger by any stretch of the imagination, neither are/were Henry, Pedro, Krkic, Iniesta (who occasionaly plays that position), etc.

FM gameplay reflects this, with narrow 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2 being very overpowering against traditional 4-4-2, for example. I haven't really used narrow 4-3-3 so can't comment on that, but I see no problem with it being successful as well. Especially since you can set individual wideplay instructions for players in narrow formations.

I play a 4-2-4 (AMR and AML) and my wingers are devastating, getting plenty of goals and assists with high average ratings. I have found that the roles 'winger' and 'inside forward' to be not very effective though, but setting both to 'advanced playmaker' gets results whatever their attributes.

I play a 4-2-4 (AMR and AML) and my wingers are devastating, getting plenty of goals and assists with high average ratings. I have found that the roles 'winger' and 'inside forward' to be not very effective though, but setting both to 'advanced playmaker' gets results whatever their attributes.

That is the problem with ME. I don't want them to play in Advanced Playmaker role so I have the wanted results. I want them to play in Winger role, so it's realistic. In ME it doesn't matter if you understand football and tactics IRL so you can create a logical one, it's if you find out how to exploit ME, that's when your tactic will be succesfull. And that annoys me the most.

I play a 4-2-4 (AMR and AML) and my wingers are devastating, getting plenty of goals and assists with high average ratings. I have found that the roles 'winger' and 'inside forward' to be not very effective though, but setting both to 'advanced playmaker' gets results whatever their attributes.

What roles are the MC's set to? I've never been able to come up with a good compromise between offense and defense for those two players. In a flat 442, the wide players are a bit more defensive, so I can let one MC do lots of attacking, while the other stays back more. When I make those MR/ML's into AMR/AML's, the central midfielders don't have that cover anymore, and I could end up with one MC defending against three players in some situations.

I have my MCs set up as deep-lying playmaker support and central midfielder defend and they are doing a great job in my 4-4-2.

It's interesting to see some disagreement in here. I have tried formations with AMRLs, like the 4-3-3 or the 4-2-3-1 with wingers as opposed to 3 AMCs which I deem unrealistic and have found that they create lots of crosses and corners but not enough plays which lead to success. Of course, the modern winger is not and out-and-out-touchline-hugging winger as 30 years ago but also cuts inside at times, but he remains a winger.

And while irl teams try to create width in offense and use it in FM all wing play leads to is the wingers running down the line before attempting a cross and success comes mainly from playing through the middle. It will obviously be complicated to cater for the way more complex way of wingers' actions in the ME and lots of subtle changes will have to add up to reach a success, but in my view it's necessary to try and work on that specific aspect a lot.

Depends on the definition of realistic.

For example, a narrow and attacking 4-2-3-1 (where the formation shows the wider AM's tucked inside in an AMC position) might not be common or considered "realistic" particularly in English football, but is commonly used by clubs at different levels in Spanish football.

It's very difficult to get the essence of every tactical system 100% spot on in terms of "factual" emulation, because there's far more global variety to emulate than years gone by. That's not making excuses, but more trying to point out the mammoth task at hand, especially with all the options we have available to us to customise things to the n'th degree.

As for use of wingers, there's a lot of factors to consider, one of which is how well you use your full-backs to work in tandem with them, and/or the supply routes taken to feed the wingers, involving them in general play.

SI said that they improved wide play in 3rd patch, but they tweaked accuracy of heading. It's harder for players to score headers if they are challenged. And as they are challenged in 99% of cases they rarely score.

I actually noticed this on 10.3,everyone seems to have missed it.

Depends on the definition of realistic.

For example, a narrow and attacking 4-2-3-1 (where the formation shows the wider AM's tucked inside in an AMC position) might not be common or considered "realistic" particularly in English football, but is commonly used by clubs at different levels in Spanish football.

It's very difficult to get the essence of every tactical system 100% spot on in terms of "factual" emulation, because there's far more global variety to emulate than years gone by. That's not making excuses, but more trying to point out the mammoth task at hand, especially with all the options we have available to us to customise things to the n'th degree.

As for use of wingers, there's a lot of factors to consider, one of which is how well you use your full-backs to work in tandem with them, and/or the supply routes taken to feed the wingers, involving them in general play.

You are touching on a valid point here, which however seems to be a different one to me.

Can we agree that playing through the middle is more fefficient in FM than irl? And that playing via the wings is less efficient in FM than irl?

That is the issue which I expect to see addressed, being fully aware that this (like most ME improvements) is a very difficult task which probably includes a lot of trial and error and a lot of work.

Pure wingers are totally ineffective in 10.3 and it needs to be looked at for sure. Even if I set my tall forward as target man, supply to head, my wingers keep crossing to each other, has anyone else noticed this? And when they do manage to cross to the forward who gets in the box, it all ends up as a soft header most of the time.

However having great wingers and a great header in between should not lead to vast amounts of crosses converted either.

Imho wingers in FM are too ineffective because they are too one-dimensional, just running down the line and crossing. It may not be entirely realistic to tone down heading efficiency in front of goal in return but at least that leads to believeable outcomes.

What wingers in FM lack is their advantage of covering the field better than any 4-4-2 tactic could (yeah, triangles and so on). Their task is not limited to running down the line. If they were to take part in the game in a more complex way as irl, i.e. also keeping the ball, passing it backwards or to other team-mates, cutting inside at times, then they could have a much more realistic impact. That would not necessarily have to be countable in goals and assists of the wingers themselves but in a better and more realistic general build-up of attacking play and thus in a more realistic efficiency of the overall tactic which employs them.

Pure wingers are totally ineffective in 10.3 and it needs to be looked at for sure. Even if I set my tall forward as target man, supply to head, my wingers keep crossing to each other, has anyone else noticed this? And when they do manage to cross to the forward who gets in the box, it all ends up as a soft header most of the time.

Yes, I totally agree. My winger too crosses to my other winger on the opp. side. That is so annoying and if as Rista said they do manage to cross it to my forwards their headers are awfull even from the players that are very good in the air.

However having great wingers and a great header in between should not lead to vast amounts of crosses converted either.

It depends what you mean by "vast amounts of crosses", but I think 30-40 goals a season from crosses is reasonable if you have two great wingers and two good headers, and are set up to exploit that.

i've said it many times, untill you can freely place players on the tactics screen the position of wing forward that dominates modern day football is unachievable in FM. The biggest flaw in the games history for me...

This is a big deal for me. Football should be played with wingers and in the current ME its hard(er) to do this. I really hope there is a balanced ME for FM11 which doesnt favour a certain type of formation.

I play a 4-4-2, 4-4-2 diamond, or 4-1-3-2 (rarely) with the wide midfielders playing winger all the time and they play great. I will say the change to the headers has made a big difference with playing a more direct high pace attack though, because it would always be my wingers running down the wing and crossing as you'd expect, but you can't put headers in most of the time any more, only if a player is completely unmarked (which I guess is pretty accurate).

However I picked up a new highly skilled striker who doesn't like playing high pace and I have a number of solid ball handlers so I run the same formation with a more possession minded approach standard mentality (not attack or defense), all default team tactics, and retain possession touchline instruction... I'll change a few things like defense depth based on opponents and such but that is the base I start every game with. I have an excellent play maker with high technical skills that plars either the DMC as deep-lying play maker or AMC as advanced play maker if need be, and my regular AMC who isn't quite as skilled but plays very well and has a great long shot. One of my strikers is always a target man or complete forward.

When they play it's like watching a real game. if they win the ball it's often passed out to the flank on a winger or full-back, depending on the situation they'll either run with it up the wing or pass it up to the target/complete ST and unless there is an opening for a break he'll hold up for the team to move up with him, once they readjust he'll usually pass it back one of the play makers and from there they have options all around. Sometimes my wingers will get the ball and run down the flank and cross, sometimes they run into the defensive line and take a through pass for the score, or run in giving the full-back space to get the ball and take it forward, etc.

The point is M wide players have all kinds of impact during a game. Maybe your teams just better with narrow play, my central guys are more highly skilled so they do better over all but my wide players are skill getting a good number of goals and assists. I think the biggest thing is to just keep the ball on the ground because headers are near impossible, but just because you don't loft crosses over doesn't mean wingers have nothing to do. What it really boils down to is what are your players good at doing. All tactics in-game or IRL work or fail, just depends if they are the right or wrong tactic for the players or if the players make a team or it's just a bunch of high skill individuals. Anyone that watched the WC this year knows how well a group of individuals does vs a team.

Pure wingers are totally ineffective in 10.3 and it needs to be looked at for sure. Even if I set my tall forward as target man, supply to head, my wingers keep crossing to each other, has anyone else noticed this? And when they do manage to cross to the forward who gets in the box, it all ends up as a soft header most of the time.

My wingers work on 10.3, my advanced forward striker has scored at least half of his 10 goals by heading in a crossed ball and does well at corners too out muscling the keeper on plenty of them. My two main wingers have 30 assists between them both so most of my goals have been made due to wing play

It is very frustrating if you are trying to play a standard 4-4-2....you know, the english way

Wingers are relatively ineffective, play wide is generally not as successful as playing narrow, and heading is sub-par...even when you have a tall strong player who is good with his head.

People have adapted and they have been very successful playing narrow and I find that you have to work harder in order to be successful at playing wide. It can be done but I would like to see it improved.

I do play wide though, I play at the first notch of 'wide' on the wide-play bar and I have done well at multiple levels.

From what I have seen though, the most successful tactics on the forum are the ones that are narrow.

What roles are the MC's set to? I've never been able to come up with a good compromise between offense and defense for those two players. In a flat 442, the wide players are a bit more defensive, so I can let one MC do lots of attacking, while the other stays back more. When I make those MR/ML's into AMR/AML's, the central midfielders don't have that cover anymore, and I could end up with one MC defending against three players in some situations.

Ball winning midfielder on Defend and advanced playmaker on support. Seems to make for a good balance between attack and defence.

I totally agree with all what has been said here, especially the part about narrow formations.

Now SI also need to make wide play effective for the CBs, I might use hug the touchline + Roaming for them and runs from deep often, but they never pull wide, even if my width is on maximum width.

That is one key area that needs to be fixed, because whenver I have posted about keeping possession on these forums, Someone always posts and says that it is doable.

Well, the problem is not in if you keep possession, its HOW you keep it, they way your team shape looks when keeping the ball.

I totally agree with all what has been said here, especially the part about narrow formations.

Now SI also need to make wide play effective for the CBs, I might use hug the touchline + Roaming for them and runs from deep often, but they never pull wide, even if my width is on maximum width.

That is one key area that needs to be fixed, because whenver I have posted about keeping possession on these forums, Someone always posts and says that it is doable.

Well, the problem is not in if you keep possession, its HOW you keep it, they way your team shape looks when keeping the ball.

It would be nice to be able to get that effect. I've never seen my center backs pull wide no matter what I have tried....

Not that this proves that wingers can be effective. But I have played with a AMR and a AML for 19 straight seasons - and they have been pretty effective to say the least! But getting the AMR and AML to act as inside forwards is difficult and really play as a 2nd and 3rd forward mind!

It is very frustrating if you are trying to play a standard 4-4-2....you know, the english way

Wingers are relatively ineffective, play wide is generally not as successful as playing narrow, and heading is sub-par...even when you have a tall strong player who is good with his head.

People have adapted and they have been very successful playing narrow and I find that you have to work harder in order to be successful at playing wide. It can be done but I would like to see it improved.

I do play wide though, I play at the first notch of 'wide' on the wide-play bar and I have done well at multiple levels.

From what I have seen though, the most successful tactics on the forum are the ones that are narrow.

i'm no tactical mastermind but i managed to get a traget man to score 45 goals in 44 games throughout a season, most of them with his head.

I agree that the effectiveness of wingers needs to improve but its still not too hard to get them working.

I've had more problems when trying to use wingers with a lone striker.

I've had more problems when trying to use wingers with a lone striker.

This is however the most common variant of using them irl and the core of my gripe with this.

I'm not claiming that wingers should be devastating in terms of accumulating goals and assists, nor should the lone striker necessarily score 20 each year when being supplied by two good wingers, but the overall efficiency of tactics employing wingers and of tactics which generally employ a wide play in FM is just too low compared to irl while the narrow tactics are a way easier way to success in the game.

i'm no tactical mastermind but i managed to get a traget man to score 45 goals in 44 games throughout a season, most of them with his head.

I agree that the effectiveness of wingers needs to improve but its still not too hard to get them working.

I've had more problems when trying to use wingers with a lone striker.

Good work there.

I think getting it to work well with lone strikers in what people have the most trouble with.