Is this evidence of AI-cheating? (Screenshot inside), Give your opinion please.

The AI teams have shown a ridiculous tackle-won percentage over my side, and today I just encountered a good example of that----The AI players with rubbish Tackling made world-class-defender tackles. If I understand it correctly a player with Tackling=20 cannot win every tackle he has attempted, but look at this picture:

Jeremy Mathieu has Tackling=12, won 4 tackles out of 4 (100%).

David Silva has Tackling=9, won 10 tackles out of 11 (91%)!

Juan Manuel Mata has Tackling=10, won 4 tackles out of 5 (80%).

Jordi Alba has Tackling=8, won 4 tackles out of 4 (100%)!

Although Tackling is not the only factor determining the tackle-won-rate, how can several AI players win over 80% percentage of his tackles simultaneously with a Tackling less than 10? If this is not AI-cheating, does that mean Tackling is a useless attribute?

PS, I play FM10.30 and my squad are all world-class players with excellent techniques (Dzeko, Aguero, Kaka, Messi, Fabregas, Essien, Clichy, Pique and two superb regens)

Did you look at all of the tackles in the analysis tool?

You've probably played with a slow tempo and been closed down quickly.

4-1 is the only stat that really matters, personally I wouldn't care how many tackles they are completing as long as you are winning like that.

None of the tackles were key, so were you just closed down in the center of the park??

P.S Even if it was cheating, they're pretty poor at it, to still lose 4-1....

EDIT: beaten to it

Did you look at all of the tackles in the analysis tool?

You've probably played with a slow tempo and been closed down quickly.

I played with a fairly fast tempo, 5 notches less than the fastest.

I am not talking about the final result, or how many chances the AI had got to make tackles on my side, I am talking about what happens AFTER the AI player tackled my player(s), why they can often achieve such a high tackle-won rate with a very low tackling whereas my side can rarely do.

cheers

Have you tried using the match analysis tool to look at where these tackles have been made to try and work out why they have been so successful?

how about posting your stats for the match?

i love the poll options, how about a "No they were not cheating as top quality players dont constantly miss tackles"

4-1 is the only stat that really matters, personally I wouldn't care how many tackles they are completing as long as you are winning like that.

My thoughts exactly. Sometimes people place way too much emphasis on statistics, without realizing that having dominance in them does not actually equate to winning a match.

voted other as you didn't have a no. From the millions of calculations FM makes for all the users these stats will appear. The AI can not cheat. Full stop. End of.

Whilst the AI can't cheat it's even more frustrating when an opposing defender marks your guy out the match with 5 key tackles won etc and you scout him afterwards and find both Tackling & Marking stats are 1's.

I don't believe the AI is cheating but David Silva winning that many tackles is a bit suspicious.

how about posting your stats for the match?

i love the poll options, how about a "No they were not cheating as top quality players dont constantly miss tackles"

IMO top quality players are not top in everything, e.g. C.Ronaldo and Messi are awful in defending. If David Silva can won 10 tackles out of 11 then he is better than any defender in the world, then what is the difference between Tackling=10 and 20?

Here are the stats of my side, together with the screenshots of two regens and the formation. All the successful tackles mentioned above were made on Messi, Essien, Fabregas, Aguero and Menendez.

Cheers

catafan mate you misunderstand.

when I look at result and I look at the stats, all I can say is that you dominated the match. When I say this, I mean that you attacked considerably more than your opposition who in turn had to defend a lot more than you aka had to make more tackles in order to leave with their dignity intact....which they barely did.

Don't fret mate. You dominated.

Besides if the AI was cheating you would have hit the post 10 times

I picked choice 4, as it was the most appropriate, a "come on you're having a laugh" would have been much better. You won 4-1 in a match you probably dominated and you're complaining that some players from the opposition got all their tackles in, something that's not uncommon when a team is basically defending most of the match.

catafan mate you misunderstand.

...your opposition who in turn had to defend a lot more than you aka had to make more tackles in order to leave with their dignity intact....which they barely did.

Don't fret mate. You dominated.

Besides if the AI was cheating you would have hit the post 10 times

OK let's make something clear, logically

More tackles made by my opposition does not necessarily mean they should or would won most of them with poor Tackling, which has been my point all the time. Some of you guys only pay attention to the dominance, the scoreline, but that is not the part I complain about. I just want to talk a little bit more about the unreasonable tackle-won issue.

IF AI cheats, SI won't make it so blatant that you cannot won against AI at all in a particular match or you hit the post by a crazy 10 times, because such an obivious cheating will badly reduce the sale of this game. What happens is probably your chance-to-win or chance-to-score is moderately reduced (but never to 0%) by the cheating system, because the MatchEngine itself is not perfect and SI have to make "adjustment" to the match process to make the final results look more reasonable otherwise there will be too much 7-0 or 8-1. That's my opinion.

Cheers

Based on the screenshots you provide, I 'merely' see a couple of players who had a bunch of good tackles. Regardless of how silly they are, they are made.

I`ve had the same happening to me in some matches as well, but the person being tackled has the annoying trait of 'Stop Play', which means he actually dwells on the ball and I stupidly had the option 'Hold Ball' ticked as well. He`s also not gifted with a superb morale, so he generally kept the ball too long. In the end, I saw him getting tackled over and over simply because he kept standing with the ball. Every 9 year old could have tackled him and still succeed. So it is not surprising that their entire center midfield all had 10 out of 10 tackles succeeded. And yes, despite them having bad tackling skills.

So no, I don`t think this is cheating. Everything you said so far is legitimately explainable.

Based on the screenshots you provide, I 'merely' see a couple of players who had a bunch of good tackles. Regardless of how silly they are, they are made.

I`ve had the same happening to me in some matches as well, but the person being tackled has the annoying trait of 'Stop Play', which means he actually dwells on the ball and I stupidly had the option 'Hold Ball' ticked as well. He`s also not gifted with a superb morale, so he generally kept the ball too long. In the end, I saw him getting tackled over and over simply because he kept standing with the ball. Every 9 year old could have tackled him and still succeed. So it is not surprising that their entire center midfield all had 10 out of 10 tackles succeeded. And yes, despite them having bad tackling skills.

So no, I don`t think this is cheating. Everything you said so far is legitimately explainable.

I agree with what you have said, without conservation. But unfortunately none of the players tackled (I mentioned their names above) has the PPM of "stops play" or instructed to "hold up the ball". The screen shot I provided is only an example, I have similar matches all over the time. I am the kind of person who watches the whole match process for every game in FM and I know what I have said is not only based on the several screenshots above. If you want the saved match I can provide a couple of them and I really want to hear some good explanations.

Cheers

I agree with what you have said, without conservation. But unfortunately none of the players tackled (I mentioned their names above) has the PPM of "stops play" or instructed to "hold up the ball". The screen shot I provided is only an example, I have similar matches all over the time. I am the kind of person who watches the whole match process for every game in FM and I know what I have said is not only based on the several screenshots above. If you want the saved match I can provide a couple of them and I really want to hear some good explanations.

Cheers

throw up some pkms including the one you posted screenshots from. Just curious...

for me this is the most rediculous thread in years, you won the game 4-1 and are whinging that they cheated and that SI are rigging the game to beat everyone. Your showing players saying "look these players are world class, they shouldnt miss tackles" not even going to comment on Aguero as he is a STRIKER and is to be expected to miss tackles, messi has poor defending stats and is played out of position so again i see no problem with a AMC/AMR missing tackles, fabregas is in the same boat but probably missed more than normal in that game, Essien only missed one tackle all game playing out of position as a right back, and Menendez attempted 4 and won 4 so i again see no problem there.

Next lets compare their players stats in the same position shall we?

Aguero - Attempted 4 won 2 (50%). Villa - Attempted 2 won 0. (0%)

Messi - Attempted 6 won 2 (33%). Manual Fernandes - Attemped 4 won 3 (75%)

Essien - Attemped 6 won 5 (83%). Gianni Zuiverloon - Attemped 1 won 0 (0%)

Fabregas - Attempted 5 won 1 (20%). David Silva - Attempted 11 won 10 (90%)

Menendez - Attempted 4 won 4 (100%). Gonzalo Pined - Attempted 0 won 0 (0%)

Chelsea average 57.2% - Valencia average 33%

I know I have gone way overboard, just really fed up of people saying the game is fixed and rubbish etc by looking at a very select set of stats.

for me this is the most rediculous thread in years, you won the game 4-1 and are whinging that they cheated and that SI are rigging the game to beat everyone. Your showing players saying "look these players are world class, they shouldnt miss tackles" not even going to comment on Aguero as he is a STRIKER and is to be expected to miss tackles, messi has poor defending stats and is played out of position so again i see no problem with a AMC/AMR missing tackles, fabregas is in the same boat but probably missed more than normal in that game, Essien only missed one tackle all game playing out of position as a right back, and Menendez attempted 4 and won 4 so i again see no problem there.

Next lets compare their players stats in the same position shall we?

Aguero - Attempted 4 won 2 (50%). Villa - Attempted 2 won 0. (0%)

Messi - Attempted 6 won 2 (33%). Manual Fernandes - Attemped 4 won 3 (75%)

Essien - Attemped 6 won 5 (83%). Gianni Zuiverloon - Attemped 1 won 0 (0%)

Fabregas - Attempted 5 won 1 (20%). David Silva - Attempted 11 won 10 (90%)

Menendez - Attempted 4 won 4 (100%). Gonzalo Pined - Attempted 0 won 0 (0%)

Chelsea average 57.2% - Valencia average 33%

I know I have gone way overboard, just really fed up of people saying the game is fixed and rubbish etc by looking at a very select set of stats.

Dear, why don't you ask me directly for the overall stats of that match? More straightforward and accurate.....it was 60% vs 75%. And more important is, my players had a generally reasonable tackle-won rate considering their tacklings (Essien 16, Fabregas 13, Menedenz 16, Messi 7, Aguero 5, etc). The reason you got the 57.2% and 33% was because you are very bad at primary school math, an average value is never calculated that way you did.

Cheers

I still don't see the problem, you won 4-1 so who cares how many tackles they made?

I can't imagine Carlo Ancelotti complaining that Wigan had 52% of the possession today (according to Sky).

Dear, why don't you ask me directly for the overall stats of that match? More straightforward and accurate.....it was 60% vs 75%. And more important is, my players had a generally reasonable tackle-won rate considering their tacklings (Essien 16, Fabregas 13, Menedenz 16, Messi 7, Aguero 5, etc). The reason you got the 57.2% and 33% was because you are very bad at primary school math, an average value is never calculated that way you did.

Cheers

i think you will find that that stat is based on the whole team, whereas you singled out 5 individual players which is what i based it on, clearly.

There is no need to be rude or insulting to anyone, or in this case everyone, who doesnt agree with you and thinks you need to just get on with it.

i think you will find that that stat is based on the whole team, whereas you singled out 5 individual players which is what i based it on, clearly.

You can't add up percentages and then divide those percentages by the sample size to get the average percentage. You have to take the values themselves (been too long so I don't have the mathematical vocabulary to explain why this is wrong in technical terms but you can see the 0% effect in your numbers).

You have to take the overall values themselves then divide by the number of players on the pitch to get a true reflection of the average, which even then is a 'dodgy statistic'. So done 'correctly' with the 5 players in question you get CHE = 56% and VAL = 72%.

even if i am wrong, which is more than possible, there is no need for him to be rude and insulting.

Thank you for your explanation

Still dont understand how winning 4-1 is the game cheating

I still don't see the problem, you won 4-1 so who cares how many tackles they made?

I can't imagine Carlo Ancelotti complaining that Wigan had 52% of the possession today (according to Sky).

Come on, if you don't care, you could choose not to discuss that issue here. But I have the right to discuss what I care about, right?

throw up some pkms including the one you posted screenshots from. Just curious...

Here you go, the *.rar file contains 3 matches, 2 of them (vs Valencia and Middlesbrough) are the two most recent matches I've played, the other one (vs Wigan) was from a couple of months ago for bug report). Thanks for any attention.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CCIDUK70

Come on, if you don't care, you could choose not to discuss that issue here. But I have the right to discuss what I care about, right?

Is your objective to win matches convincingly or to prevent the opponents from tackling you?

If your answer is the second one then the people in the tactics forum may be able to help you.

Still dont understand how winning 4-1 is the game cheating

As I said before, Cheating system (assuming it exists) won't be so blatant to let everyone easily feel it, SI is never that stupid. It could only moderately reduce your chance to score or win, that could turn around the whole result from win to draw or loss if you are only silghtly better than your opposition. That is my personal opinion, and I open the options to others, e.g. that issue maybe just a M.E. bug, for people to discuss it with logic reasoning.

Cheers

Here you go, the *.rar file contains 3 matches, 2 of them (vs Valencia and Middlesbrough) are the two most recently matches I've played, the other one (vs Wigan) was from a couple of months ago for bug report). Thanks for any attention.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=CCIDUK70

no upload your save, you have hand picked out 3 matches with these sort of stats. Upload all of your save so it can be compared over the entire save.

Is your objective to win matches convincingly or to prevent the opponents from tackling you?

If your answer is the second one then the people in the tactics forum may be able to help you.

No, my objective here is only to discuss this issue, whether it is reasonable or not. That's all.

If it helps, I've found a match where the tackling percentage was 84-68 in their favour, but we won the match 2-1.

I don't like the tackling stat in game. Very rarely is someone actually tackled- the "tackles" counted are when a pass is played and two people are near it.

Anyway: don't sweat. Look at each tackle. I think that will present a clearer picture.

And fwiw, the AI can't cheat, the ME does not have the capacity to differentiate between AI teams and human teams.

This might be worth a look

The highlight is the tackling percentage, Arsenal 66.7% Blackpool 80%.

This might be worth a look

The highlight is the tackling percentage, Arsenal 66.7% Blackpool 80%.

exactly the sort of thing i was looking for! Beat me to it! I guess thats the end of the thread then.

This might be worth a look

The highlight is the tackling percentage, Arsenal 66.7% Blackpool 80%.

Well, how can we know what are the real Tackling values of those Blackpool players? I never complained particularly why Messi was tackled that many times by David Silva just because Messi_in_real_world is technically the best. Messi_in_FM is just a bunch of numbers, nothing seriously correlated to the Messi_in_real_world.

If you want to use real world examples to explain the events in FM, a presumption must be that the game could nearly perfectly reflect the real world football----unfortunately that is not the case.

Definitely cheating, and completely unacceptable. I, for one, will be boycotting FM from now on.

clutching at straws now, the game isnt cheating you, you won 4-1!!!

Well, how can we know what are the real Tackling values of those Blackpool players?

Bingo!

In the grand scheme of things it is a pretty meaningless statistic, I wouldn't pay too much attention to it.

Well, how can we know what are the real Tackling values of those Blackpool players?

They're an average Championship side motivated by one of the best man managers in England and inspired by one quality playmaker to reach the playoffs and win them. They generally are not renowned for their tackling.

That raises another point- things like motivation, morale and form, and indeed other attributes like bravery, strength and concentration, are very important to the tackling process.

They're an average Championship side motivated by one of the best man managers in England and inspired by one quality playmaker to reach the playoffs and win them. They generally are not renowned for their tackling.

That raises another point- things like motivation, morale and form, and indeed other attributes like bravery, strength and concentration, are very important to the tackling process.

Thanks mate, that is one of the most reasonable explanation so far in this thread IMO (and maybe more importantly, on-topic). The other one is...also yours as I've just noticed. I feel I can accept your opinion (with only 20% conservation ).

Cheers mate.

What exactly is the definition of a "tackle not won"?

The defender slides in and misses? Then I'm not surprised that it didn't happen much.

The defender fouls the attacker? Again, not surprised at the stats.

The attacker dribbles free past the defender? Once again, I don't expect this to happen too often.

The defender tries to get the ball, but doesn't get it? Well then why are there only 4 attempts to get the ball for some players in an entire match?

I think you need to know what a "tackle not won" is according to the match engine, before you can make any judgemens about its integrity.

Same about the long shots and free kicks brilliantly hitting the back of the net every once in a while, even though the player in question has stats of 1,2,3. If I remember correctly what Ov once explained to me, attributes ensure that by and large, better players outperform weaker ones. However, there is another factor put in, and that is weighted random numbers. They're key, and frankly, it's more realistic that even poor finishers hit a lucky strike every once in a while. The attributes and the corresponding weighted random numbers ensure that better players do it frequently - and lesser ones rarely. Looking over your entire save you'll likely find that those tackling stats of those players rarely if ever apply. Don't look at the cases where they do - it happens because it's meant to happen, just like in the real sports. Look at all of your games.

If the game doesn't want you to win a match, you can't win it. Save the game before match, and try playing it again...

Technically, I think that you simply cannot accept that some AI players can make this many succesfull tackles. But as far as I know, every ball-nicking is considered a tackle too, so whenever you lose the ball to an opponent player (unless it`s an interception), it counts as a tackle. So mistimed dribbles, dwelling on ball and being succesfully closed down which results in losing the ball is also a tackle. Here goes also that whenever you attack, the opponent needs to close you down and take the ball. If you intercept that ball again after that ball-nicking, you can try again - which means the opponent has another chance to nick your ball, meaning there might possibly be another tackle coming up. Apparently the opponents aren`t so stupid to make silly slidings which miss the ball, so the rating of successfull tackling stays high.

This would explain why a player can have these many tackles. Also, in the opponent penalty area a player is more likely to tackle a player (without being able to score though) in the middle of a crowd of players. Happens often during corners if the ball hits the ground and players can`t shoot because everyone`s in the way.

There is also the factor enthusiasm here. A player who is going for every single ball for a few minutes may have plenty of chance to nick at least a ball of 3, 4 before he gets tired. In FM we have 'morale' which is kind of different from enthusiasm, really. You can still have a high morale while not going for every single ball if you play according to how your manager wants you to play. You can also have a low morale (you probably lose anyway), but you have the role of getting as many balls on the pitch as possible in the first 15 minutes before you are allowed to drop back and play like a midfielder spraying passes. This is not visible in FM, as the enthusiasm stat isn`t there. You can use a mixture of bravery, determination, stamina, morale and tactics, but even then it is still only a mere simulation of enthusiasm, not enthusiasm itself.