Physical stats dominate too much?

Who ever follows the premier league would have noticed Paul Scholes' vintages performances already this season. These being in the Community Shield against Chelsea and the 3-0 win this weekend vs Newcastle in which he took man of the match on both occasions. He, like his team-mate Ryan Giggs are not fully acknowledged in the world of Football manager with their performances as I believe the physical side of the game dominates more than the actually technical (kicking a ball) side of the game.

Take Gabby Agbonlahor for example. Although he is still a good player in real life, his performances excel in football manager, knocking goals in week in week out. Now why may you ask? This is down to his blistering pace and acceleration.

Anderson (from Manchester United) is another good example. Technically not the most gifted player in the game, but he has the physicals of an ox. He runs through defences like a knife through butter... but alas we are yet to see this kind of form in our modern day game.

So does anyone else agree that the physical attributes out weigh the technical footballing attributes side of football manager?

Physical attributes enable players to have more time, space and power on pitch. Anyway it depends teams' style of play, league and outside affects like weather and pitch condition. Premier league is requires more physical attributes, especially pace, while la liga needs technique. Maybe this is why you think that.

You have a point about Agbonlahor, stick him in a team and without much thought he will usually play well.

But you can get players without great physical stats to play well, too.

AMC's, play behind two strikers and let them pick up on loose balls to either play another ball in or to shoot.

MC's, play them in a more defensive position, let them distribute without having to rely too much on blistering pace.

DC's, Don't play too high up the pitch or they will get caught out.

STR, play behind your main man as a target man/ in a supportive role.

Wide players are harder to play with less physical stats I find, Although I have one regen in the england team who is 23, seems to be fully developed with increidible mental and technical stats, but only 9 for acceleration and 13 for pace. I play him in the MR position, bit as a wide midfielder instead of a winger, and this does the trick.

Yeah, thse are my amatuerish views, you may laugh, but I've won a world cup with a crappy England team with hardly any pace by adapting players to their best roles! Just like real life really, got to find the right balance, but back to your original point, yes I agree, Gabby and a few others are unrealistically good!

Yes but your missing my whole point from which I started off this debate. Paul Scholes and Ryan Giggs are players that are in the mid-30's yet playing the ball around so well, and creating many opportunities because they have adapted to play in this style due to their age.

Yes I agree that the Premier League is very physical but, not always required to put in good performances week-in week-out.

I disagree that they have adapated directly because of age.

I believe they have adapted due to their physical stats no longer being up to it. If you are 22 or 32 and you are physically no longer capable, then you need to adapt your game no matter what your age.

Yes, this usually goes hand in hand with age. But not always. Giggs didn't wake up one day and say, right I'm 33 now, time to start playing differently. It's the physical side diminishing which makes you change your approach. It just so happens that because naturally, physicality does usually correlate with age, that older players go through this. But it can happen to players under 30 too. I also concede that If you are more experienced, then the more able you will be to adapt your game.

But in FM you get alot of regens with poor physical stats at the age of 24, and you need to tactically play them the correct way to get the most out of them.

I think I should not have directed poor physicalness to age. You are right, they did not just wake up and adapt when he was 33. He has adapted gradually as his physical side of the game has declined. But in FM its hard to get beastly performances out of players with less favourable physicals.

To be honest, I get some pretty beastly performances from players with bad physical stats. They have the technical skills to make up for it.

I agree with you totally about physical stats still being too important. I mean, Gabby will score goals no matter what, whether you use the right tactics or not. But like I said before there are ways to get good performances form lethergic players too. Just tweak your tactics to employ them in less physical roles.

I sitll agree with you though that something needs to be looked at with players like Gabby

You have to remember that Physical stats cost a lot more Current Ability points then technical stats. So it's only fair that they matter more on the pitch as well. If you edited Agbonlahor attributes in the Database editor to have say... 3 less acceleration and pace but kept current ability the same, the game would try to balance out the extra current ability points. And you might find that ALL his technical abilities increase by 1 or 2 points as the exchange for those 3 points in only two physical attributes.

In the OP's defense, he is not disputing anything you have said, he is agreeing, saying that physical stats for some players make them too good, unrealistically so. Gabby being the prime example, scores 40 goals every season and 1 or 2 a game in the England squad just because he can run fast.

I would agree that physical stats affect the game far too much... I play a game in the US MLS and there is a player Marvel Wynne. He has amazing physical stats and almost nothing else mental or technical wise. Yet with him on my team he regularly has an average rating over 7 even when every highlight I see of him during the match he's passing the ball right to an opponent. The only time he has a 'bad game' is if he makes a major mistake.

The funniest part about it is the real player is kind of questionable in the MLS, yet in-game he's a league star right back.

I do agree that technical and mental stats can make a very good player as well (get beaten by them plenty enough), but since when does being fast and strong make you good at tackling, crossing, passing, etc.

gabby is insane, just scored 9 in 8 games and 2 against me to start the season:(

make that 11 in 11 now

Of course the physical stats play a more important role than they should in FM. It's a balance issue and it needs to be remedied.

Stick a mediocre stiker in front, with 11 finishing, 9 concentration and 10 composure and see him score 25 goals a season if he has 18 pace, 17 stamina and 15 agility.

Take a striker that has the whole package and you see him perform like a God. Aguero in my game finished two seasons scoring around 41 goals and 35 assists.

still, it used to be worse. In FM3 and 4 jumping was the master attribute, anyone with jumping 18 would dominate unreasonably well.

ultimately thought it is realistic. the most important aspect of an athlete is his physically ability, then technique.

still, it used to be worse. In FM3 and 4 jumping was the master attribute, anyone with jumping 18 would dominate unreasonably well.

ultimately thought it is realistic. the most important aspect of an athlete is his physically ability, then technique.

I'd say out of Technical, Mental and Psyhical attributed in FM, mental ones are the most important, just like IRL.

FM10 is already improevd in that respect. On FM09 I tended to look in the right column first when assessing players.

Now it seems to be about right to me

the most important aspect of an athlete is his physically ability, then technique.

i mostly disagree; physicals are quite important but it should not be on the highest level. In fact there is a tip by FM itself that suggest that "physical training is more imprtant in lower leagues". Think Barcleona; its technical then physical

To be honest, I get some pretty beastly performances from players with bad physical stats. They have the technical skills to make up for it.

I agree with you totally about physical stats still being too important. I mean, Gabby will score goals no matter what, whether you use the right tactics or not. But like I said before there are ways to get good performances form lethergic players too. Just tweak your tactics to employ them in less physical roles.

I stIll agree with you though that something needs to be looked at with players like Gabby

i think its gabby and those with physically poor stats too. while we are at it note that some oldies like chelsea seem to be the exception of 30 somethings with high physicals that I agree with

Of course the physical stats play a more important role than they should in FM. It's a balance issue and it needs to be remedied.

i agree totally.

This is my major concern, Scholes played the full match... and although not particularly common, it is not a rare occurance for him to do so. In FM, he cannot last 70 minutes on low tempo and low closing down, let alone a full Premier league match at a high tempo!

Mattyboy89 is exactly right. if a player has 20 jumping and pace he plays better than Messi. other attributes is not important too much.

also there is something bad in the game.

for example a player is 1,60 m height and has 20 jumping attribute

and the other player is 1,90 height and has 10 jumping attribute

when they are trying to head to ball %99 the small one wins.

Mattyboy89 is exactly right. if a player has 20 jumping and pace he plays better than Messi. other attributes is not important too much.

also there is something bad in the game.

for example a player is 1,60 m height and has 20 jumping attribute

and the other player is 1,90 height and has 10 jumping attribute

when they are trying to head to ball %99 the small one wins.

and thats the way it should be as the smaller player can jump significantly higher in your example although other attributes will/do have an effect.

I think you have a point, I don't like how players automatically score loads of goals in a season just because they are fast, there's a lot more to it than that.

Although there are many other complex reasons behind this, i think that the pace and speed of a striker does make him a goal scorer even if his finishing/first touch stats are not very good.

This is partially influential to other players across the pitch but I don't think it affects them that much and they a still have a job to do, only a problem with strikers really. Try playing a game with a championship team or lower, you will see how pace doesn't help midfielders greatly. Although strikers, it helps tons. when i look for a striker now, the stats i look at first are Pace, Acceleration, First touch, Finishing. Then heading etc.

Should be changed slightly so forwards don't rely on speed to get goals as much.

Andy

I think you have a point, I don't like how players automatically score loads of goals in a season just because they are fast, there's a lot more to it than that.

Although there are many other complex reasons behind this, i think that the pace and speed of a striker does make him a goal scorer even if his finishing/first touch stats are not very good.

This is partially influential to other players across the pitch but I don't think it affects them that much and they a still have a job to do, only a problem with strikers really. Try playing a game with a championship team or lower, you will see how pace doesn't help midfielders greatly. Although strikers, it helps tons. when i look for a striker now, the stats i look at first are Pace, Acceleration, First touch, Finishing. Then heading etc.

Should be changed slightly so forwards don't rely on speed to get goals as much.

Andy

I totally disagree that it's a striker only issue.

As I said in a post earlier my MLS team has a right back with great physical stats (17-20) and average to weak technical/mental (10 Concentration 8 decisions 13 mark/tackle) but he's got the 3rd highest avg rating on my team, behind only my top offensive players, and my other defensive players (who have physical stats all between 13-15 but much better technical/mental) get demolished. This guy is a league star in FM10 and again, even though in IRL the player is extremely fast and strong he's barely first team quality because of his lesser skills, which is reflected in the game by the stats but not by performance.

So why is it that that small point difference in the physical stats makes such a huge difference in simulating the performance? Hell I even said I see tons of highlights during a match when this guy is just giving the ball away but he still gets a 7 rating during that match.

No matter how fast and strong you are if you don't know when to make that tackle or when to make the safe pass you are going to be a bad player, especially on D.

So it's no just strikers with high pace... the stats are imbalanced toward physical, it's not completely game breaking, but it is annoying.

Mattyboy89 is exactly right. if a player has 20 jumping and pace he plays better than Messi. other attributes is not important too much.

also there is something bad in the game.

for example a player is 1,60 m height and has 20 jumping attribute

and the other player is 1,90 height and has 10 jumping attribute

when they are trying to head to ball %99 the small one wins.

the 160 height and 20 jumping really did exist, he was a chilean international in the 90s, marcelo salas i think. his vertial leap was phenomenal.

FM has gotten so much better in balancing and toning down the effects of the phisical, compared to other versions.

in earlier versions you could absolutely dominate using a tall man small man partnerships up front, and as long as the target man had jumping 18 then it would work, as long as his mental abilities were not under 9

finishing is an absolutely redundent attribute. This was proven in Fm03

In relation to the OP then yes. A technically gifted player should far outshine a physical beast but in FM the opposite occurs. You just need to see the amount of goals a poacher can score with a very good acceleration attribute and the amount of goals a CB can score from corners with very good jumping and heading attributes. But sadly the physical attributes have always been overrated by SI in the ME for many years which is a big shame - and an area that needs improving.

I'd agree, the by far most important attribute for me in FM10 for Centre Back's is when I tell them to jump they ask how high?? The higher the better as far as I am concerned when it comes to CB.

As for mental attributes....like irl they are massive biggies for me. Nobody gets signed by me (GK's aside!! ), no matter the team, no matter the division/league, no matter their age or position unless they have a min of 10 for Workrate, Determination and Teamwork.

That ^ with kangaroo CB's seems to work pretty rosy no matter my team/tactics/nation.

Physical attributes mainly pace are too important in the lower leagues, my striker were Brandy and Harewood in league one. Brandy got 31 goals in 24 games and Harewood got 37 in 41 with 25 assists. Their composure is pretty poor even for that level.

FM is still far too dependant upon pace for my liking, or rather it makes it too difficult to effectively utilise players without pace. High pace in the lower leagues and you will get countless goals from poor players, then bring in a veteran who give the ball in the box and he will score is all too easily dispossed or caught up with despite having the know-how of how to beat his man or pull him out of position. To have a truly effective, top european side you need every player to have at least 14 pace, your strikers ideally need 17 or more as do your full backs and wide-men if you use them. On a shorter pitch your team will break so fast that its bound to cause problems. It is getting better, my tactic for FM09 has reached the epitome of fast players, the only player without 17 or more pace is Keirrison who has a full-attacking mentality slider to compensate. As a result my team may only have 40% possession in a match, but they will create usually in excess of 30 chances a game.

On FM10 once you get to a similar stage with teams, like you can do in the lower leagues I just signed freebies with pace I was able to take bradford from league 2 to the premiership with a promotion each season with no real sweat. Because I know of the such heavy reliance upon pace it didn't feel all that much like a challenge or achievement. When you know that pace unlocks the game you just naturally go with it as you can't justify knowing what will cause you to win and then not use it. Teams of battlers and veterans often struggle more than a team which oozes pace. A prime example on FM10 is Stoke vs Burnley in the premiership. Burnley have a much weaker team, but a lot of their players have pace whereas Stoke don't. In my saves where I'm not Stoke, Burnley will often finish comfortably and Stoke will struggle. Man Utd often struggle due to the lack of pace through the middle of their team on FM, whereas a couple of years ago Arsenal would become untouchable due to the pace on their youngsters.

Physical attributes mainly pace are too important in the lower leagues, my striker were Brandy and Harewood in league one. Brandy got 31 goals in 24 games and Harewood got 37 in 41 with 25 assists. Their composure is pretty poor even for that level.

but in real life if there was a player in a lower league that was simply much faster than any other player in the league he would be scoring over 30.

and how poor is poor? we have to consider this too. consider that me and my mates playing football on saturdays at the park have anticipation 2? crossing 0?

mental and skill attributes of 8 is poor looking down from the lofty heights of the top division, but is average lower down. That is, average for a professional footballer. I view 14 as being very good, able to dominate, and 12 being a respectable skill.

human fitness, however, is a different story, (yes, we can debate this) and in terms of athletics someone with a rating of 17 really stands out amongst fellow mortals. This is because it lies at the essence of sport.

football is a form of athletics: an athlete can decide to be a football player, or a gymnast, or a boxer, or whatever. And ultimately sport is also a form of athletics. You run, you don't walk, right. and if the english are adament of sending the ball up in the air then jumping becomes unnecessarily important. And why in latin america we like to keep the ball on the ground!!

I agree with Santy001, about the overarching importance of pace.

certainly mentality needs to become much more of a defining attribute to trump pace, as specifically sheer aggressiveness and combativity should provide the edge.

A battle hardened veteran would, and should, terrorise the brgh young centre forward. The holding midfielder will bodycheck him at any opportunity and the centre backs will dive viciously each time he gets the ball. He's going to spend a horrible afternoon on the park. In order for this centre forward to dominate he needs to have strong mental stats, at least a handful of '14's, in addition to pace.

to continue with the stoke - burnley example it is stoke who should finish confortably and burnley who should struggle.

cheers

(what happened to the smilies there used to be?)

but in real life if there was a player in a lower league that was simply much faster than any other player in the league he would be scoring over 30.

and how poor is poor? we have to consider this too. consider that me and my mates playing football on saturdays at the park have anticipation 2? crossing 0?

mental and skill attributes of 8 is poor looking down from the lofty heights of the top division, but is average lower down. That is, average for a professional footballer. I view 14 as being very good, able to dominate, and 12 being a respectable skill.

human fitness, however, is a different story, (yes, we can debate this) and in terms of athletics someone with a rating of 17 really stands out amongst fellow mortals. This is because it lies at the essence of sport.

football is a form of athletics: an athlete can decide to be a football player, or a gymnast, or a boxer, or whatever. And ultimately sport is also a form of athletics. You run, you don't walk, right. and if the english are adament of sending the ball up in the air then jumping becomes unnecessarily important. And why in latin america we like to keep the ball on the ground!!

Harewood has 11 for finishing, 7 for composure, 10 for technique. With those stats he should not be scoring 30 plus goals and in real life I don't think he would score that many in league one and then have similar performances in the Championship. The top 10 goal scorers in league one have an average of 13 for finishing and composure, 7 and 11 are not good even for league one. His physical attributes allow him to score against slower defenders, if this was true to real life then Agbonlahor would score more than any strikers in real life.

defoe, harewood, agbonlahor all have more than 17 goals here... (february 1st season)

i agree that 13 is what it should be. however, you may underestimate the attributes.

I think a high finishing, e.g 16, is necessary to put the ball away the great goalies in the world, but to put the ball away against joe blog of league one it does not need to be so high. Note that a composure score of 11 is medium, its in the middle, of the scale - in a world of professional footballers. i.e. don't underestimate the low attributes, his finishing 7 is way better than most of your friends when you were/are in school.

finally, we should all stop complaining and enjoy, i certainly use this to my advantgae, and i as i tell of my newgens coming out with pace and balance of 16, it does not mean they can make it in the premiership.

defoe, harewood, agbonlahor all have more than 17 goals here... (february 1st season)

and would Diddier Drogba be a world class striker without his physical presence? would shearer have been such a beast during his carear without his fitness to dominate the goal mouth area?

what are you trying to say?

yes everyone agrees that Agbonlahor is badly designed in this game.

Anyhow, I think mental stats should dominate more, i want more violence in this game, like some seriously bonecrunching tackles!!

Physical stats don't dominate the game, physical playstyles dominate the kind of football users play.

Part of the perceived "dominance" of physical stats in my opinion is the difficulty in understanding what the mental attributes do. If you are not sure what the mental stats do it is rather difficult to build a strong set of tactics based on intelligent play. It is easy to spot a fast and lethal striker and tell him to play as a fast and lethal striker, but it is much harder to spot a proper genius playmaker and get him to play that way.

This is the way football is going my friend, footballers have to be more than just footballers, they have to be athletes. Expect to see the African nations do a lot better over the next few world cups.

Err... Because Africans are better "athletes" right? Please don't go down the path of the USA and simplify your conceptions of your national game to that extent. You will end up with tons of guys who will never get a look at a top side because they run the 40 yard dash one hundredth of a second slower than some import who has half the technical ability (or as they say - "Tons of Potential")