Jump to content

Is England overrated?


Recommended Posts

In FM, they are one of the toughest national team, but in real life their performance is not so good. Especially Rooney, I don't understand why SI gave him freaking high mental attitude and let him become a monster in important matches. We all know hiis performance in 2006 and 2010 World Cup. He even bought tickets for vacation BEFORE the match against Germany!

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Replies 216
  • Created
  • Last Reply

On the face of it, yes. But do you think the England players are over-rated for their clubs? For example, is Terry too good for Chelsea in the game? Is Rooney over-performing for Man Utd? The same applies for Gerrard, Lampard, any of the Coles, SWP, Lennon, et al. If their club figures roughly translate into match stats that correlate closely to those IRL, then no, the England team cannot be over-rated on the game. Instead, it 'proves' how massively the players IRL under-performed at the World Cup - not to mention those of France, Italy, a certain 'stars of the game' from elsewhere.

Short of applying a random 'it's the summer; players can't be bothered' reduction of stats when it comes to international competitions, there's nothing to be done about the apparent imbalance where certain national teams' players are concerned.

Link to post
Share on other sites

On the face of it, yes. But do you think the England players are over-rated for their clubs? For example, is Terry too good for Chelsea in the game? Is Rooney over-performing for Man Utd? The same applies for Gerrard, Lampard, any of the Coles, SWP, Lennon, et al. If their club figures roughly translate into match stats that correlate closely to those IRL, then no, the England team cannot be over-rated on the game. Instead, it 'proves' how massively the players IRL under-performed at the World Cup - not to mention those of France, Italy, a certain 'stars of the game' from elsewhere.

Short of applying a random 'it's the summer; players can't be bothered' reduction of stats when it comes to international competitions, there's nothing to be done about the apparent imbalance where certain national teams' players are concerned.

For clubs, no. But their peformance in the WC/EURO is really bad, not once but a few times. Especially Rooney. Gerrard and Lampard at least scored goals(YES) and some good passes, but as for Rooney, all I remember is he missed that chance and bought tickets before the match.

I think France is also a bit overrated. As for Italy, they really don't have good young players now.

Link to post
Share on other sites

In FM, they are one of the toughest national team, but in real life their performance is not so good. Especially Rooney, I don't understand why SI gave him freaking high mental attitude and let him become a monster in important matches. We all know hiis performance in 2006 and 2010 World Cup. He even bought tickets for vacation BEFORE the match against Germany!

Do you remember his performances at Euro 2004?

As others have said, SI do NOT rate players (with a very few exceptions- a handful of London clubs) and the ratings are primarily based on multiple seasons, rather four matches.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes he's good in 2004, but awful in 2006 and 2010, and not to mention what happened in 2008...

it's not 4 matches, it's 3 competitions. Isn't World Cup the most important football competition? Why shouldn't SI judge player's mental attitude and important match attitude base on that? Compare to Owen, he really don't derseve such high stats.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What SCAIG said pretty much. Plus there other factors to consider like the coach and his playing style. Sometimes players are asked to play in roles that they do not regularly do for their clubs. For instance playing gerrard and lampard together in the center of midfield has always been difficult because they both like to go forward.

Plus rooney seemed quite exhausted in the world cup....

Link to post
Share on other sites

For the same reason that they don't make players who do well at the World Cup top class players. It'd be ridiculous.

I didn't say SI should make them top class players unless they played REALLY AWESOME in World Cup, but at least they deserve good mental attitude and important match attitude right? Like Landon Donovan.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes he's good in 2004, but awful in 2006 and 2010, and not to mention what happened in 2008...

it's not 4 matches, it's 3 competitions. Isn't World Cup the most important football competition? Why shouldn't SI judge player's mental attitude and important match attitude base on that? Compare to Owen, he really don't derseve such high stats.

The south korea's team would've had a few players who were world class mentally after the 2002 world cup.

Also in europe, teams can play like 10 times as many games as they do in the world cup.

A lot of times competitions like that can be based on form because of the fact that it is only about a month or so long.....a lot can happen during a season from august to may.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't say SI should make them top class players unless they played REALLY AWESOME in World Cup, but at least they deserve good mental attitude and important match attitude right? Like Landon Donovan.

Well donovan has been a bit of a late bloomer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What SCAIG said pretty much. Plus there other factors to consider like the coach and his playing style. Sometimes players are asked to play in roles that they do not regularly do for their clubs. For instance playing gerrard and lampard together in the center of midfield has always been difficult because they both like to go forward.

Plus rooney seemed quite exhausted in the world cup....

Why both Gerrard and Lampard at least scored goals and got some nice passes but Rooney didn't?

Link to post
Share on other sites

In answer to the OP then yes they are overated - just look at John Terry's attributes for example. In England everybody says its the best league in the world....the best marketed/watched then yes - but the EPL is played at a fast pace - the EPL is good at what it does - a high tempo - no time on the ball-often kick and rush - not the best teams becasue they have talented foreign players that can actually control the game. I am not saying the English players are awfull - but they are made out to be better then they really are. Just look at the success rate of English players abroad - pretty low. And many of the foreign player make other players in the team look better than they really are. Such as Carvalho mopping up for John Terry and droping deep to let John Terry do the ugly work - but Carvalho reads the game well and often difuses alot of situation - but MOTD will focus on the Gerrards, Lampards, and Rooneys of this world and show us snippets to make it look like they ran the show etc! Dont get me wrong the likes of Rooney, Gerrard, Lampard, Terry, Rio are superb players and world class but their games are perfect for the English game. But Gerrard in the Barcelona team and he would not be as bigger influence and the same for the other players - as European football - especially in Spain, Italy, Germany, Argentina, Brazil - is much more technique based involving immense skill and is not so reliant on physical attributes like the EPL - look at Barca with xavi and iniesta - physically weak but techniquely great-. Just look at Veron at Man Utd and what happened, Berbatov at Man Utd to a degree, Forlan at Man Utd - you could go on. Yes English football as been on a high for the last 5 years and has done well but the amount of foreigns has helped it become what it has become IMO.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why both Gerrard and Lampard at least scored goals and got some nice passes but Rooney didn't?

Well Im not rooney so I can't tell you that. All I can say is that he was very very tired and im guessing there were other england players who were just as tired.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The south korea's team would've had a few players who were world class mentally after the 2002 world cup.

Also in europe, teams can play like 10 times as many games as they do in the world cup.

A lot of times competitions like that can be based on form because of the fact that it is only about a month or so long.....a lot can happen during a season from august to may.

Why not? some of the South Korea players do derserve good mental stats.

I am not saying he is not a good player, all I'm saying is his crazily high mental stats should be turn down since he didn't play well in 2006 and 2010 World Cup, and England even didn't advance into 2008 Euro.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well Im not rooney so I can't tell you that. All I can say is that he was very very tired and im guessing there were other england players who were just as tired.

Well all the English team have been knocked out in ECC since 1/4 final. Many players in Netherlands and Spain player more matches than them.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Why not? some of the South Korea players do derserve good mental stats.

I am not saying he is not a good player, all I'm saying is his crazily high mental stats should be turn down since he didn't play well in 2006 and 2010 World Cup, and England even didn't advance into 2008 Euro.

Other than Park Ji Sung, I dont think any of the other members of that squad has found enough success in europe to deserve an increase in their stats......well maybe Lee Chun Soo.

I know you are trying to do this but it kinda sounds like you are ignoring all the games that they play during the season.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well all the English team have been knocked out in ECC since 1/4 final. Many players in Netherlands and Spain player more matches than them.

They play in leagues that have a winter break while in england they oddly play a lot of matches in that same period of time.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that Shadowleech keeps missing the point (maybe on purpose?). Yes, the England team works on FM10 (and has on all past incarnations) because it should work. It's not overrated, the players are rated just as they should be - they just mess-up whenever they put on an England shirt. Coding this in would make international management a real pain, I assume.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It seems to me that Shadowleech keeps missing the point (maybe on purpose?). Yes, the England team works on FM10 (and has on all past incarnations) because it should work. It's not overrated, the players are rated just as they should be - they just mess-up whenever they put on an England shirt. Coding this in would make international management a real pain, I assume.

I think from now on instead of playing in their england shirts they should all just wear their clubs shirts instead.....

Link to post
Share on other sites

Other than Park Ji Sung, I dont think any of the other members of that squad has found enough success in europe to deserve an increase in their stats......well maybe Lee Chun Soo.

I know you are trying to do this but it kinda sounds like you are ignoring all the games that they play during the season.

Yes they are not top players, I didn't deny it. But they do derseve some good mental stats such as work rate and bravery, plus important matches right?

I never said Rooney is not good, the thing is he didn't play well in 2 World Cups, why should he have such high mental stats and important matches? I remember in FM 2009 Klose only got 11 or 10 on important matches, what a joke?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not this argument again.

They're great for their clubs, you can't make them bad because they aren't good at international level.

Well he isn't saying that SI should make them bad....he just wants them to be toned down....but I do agree with you.....just dont want any miss understandings ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well he isn't saying that SI should make them bad....he just wants them to be toned down....but I do agree with you.....just dont want any miss understandings ;)

Why shouldn't a player's mental stats and important matches be tone down when he didn't play well in 2 World Cups, which is the most important competition? Plus he didn't choose to play better but said some stupid words to the fans, and bought tickets for his vacation before the match against Germany.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes they are not top players, I didn't deny it. But they do derseve some good mental stats such as work rate and bravery, plus important matches right?

I never said Rooney is not good, the thing is he didn't play well in 2 World Cups, why should he have such high mental stats and important matches? I remember in FM 2009 Klose only got 11 or 10 on important matches, what a joke?

I feel the same way at times that some of the players' attributes are a bit off.

I know you didn't say it directly but that is what it is beginning to sound like....I would much rather not put words in your mouth though.

That being said it still doesn't justify reducing the mental stats of players who constantly perform over an 8 month season just because they have a rough month in the summer every 2 years or so.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Players like C Ronaldo and Messi don't have very high mental stats, but they are still top players in the game(And of course, IRL).

If Rooney derseve such high stats, then what does Owen, who got a hat trick against Germany, scored goals in 1998 2002 and 2004 knockout stage against Argentina, Brazil and Portugal derseve? Not to mention World Cup heroes like Zidane and Baggio.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're referring to all English players, I think the opposite may be true- someone over at FMNorthAmerica did an analysis of Mexican, American and English players in the database; what they found was that England had the highest number of top-tier players of the three (fairly accurate, I'd venture) but after that there was a sharp drop-off to the point where the England lagged behind when it came to the -7s of the world (PA.)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Players like C Ronaldo and Messi don't have very high mental stats, but they are still top players in the game(And of course, IRL).

If Rooney derseve such high stats, then what does Owen, who got a hat trick against Germany, scored goals in 1998 2002 and 2004 knockout stage against Argentina, Brazil and Portugal derseve? Not to mention World Cup heroes like Zidane and Baggio.

Owen has been injured soooooo much. Plus he has not been as consistent over the years, as great as he been in front of goal. The only stat that really matters for him really is composure and off the ball and he is very high in both of them.

Ronaldo and Messi have the right mental stats for what they are.

Zidane and Baggio......um....they are both retired.

Now before we take this any further I want you to understand something; mental attributes (among other things) govern the way that each player approaches the game. By just looking at the end result you are missing a lot of why rooney is built the way he is in game. Like I said before, Ronaldo, Messi, and Owen are built to do what they do in real life.

Ronaldo likes to find space, head to go to goal, and put on a show while doing so (aka flair, composure, off the ball etc.)

Messi likes to pick up the ball and create chances for himself and/or others as well as pop up in dangerous places at the most oppourtune moments (aka creativity, flair, off the ball etc.)

Owen is constantly looking for space, and if he finds it in the box they may not be anyone better than him at finishing off chances (aka off the ball and composure)

Now rooney.....he's got the stats that make him a dangerous attacker (off the ball and flair). He is also very strong willed and aggressive and he is constantly running around trying to get the ball whenever possible (teamwork, work rate, determination). He's also a freakin pyscho at times (very high aggression). All these things are true about him in real life as they are in the game.

The big thing here is that he does things that the other guys you mentioned (barring the retired guys) don't do. Ronaldo, Messi and Owen do have the work rate or the agression that Rooney has. That's why his mental stats are that high.

Link to post
Share on other sites

there's always going to be home bias. in betting and computer games here, england are overrated. but at the same time, england do have very good players. the 2010 team had a couple of weak spots and a few 'decent players', but if england had roo, lamps, stevie g, terry, david james etc. on form they are at least in the top 5.

i used to think england and the english were way overrated but then the clubs went and practically dominated the CL and haven't done too badly in the europa league now either.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rooney was injured in WC2006 and incredfible at Euro2004. Yes, he was poor at WC2010, but so were Kaka and Ronaldo, are they overrated too?

Messi was also very average at the last WC, is he overrated too?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The answer is simple, its made by an English company and like England fans they totally over rate their players, simple. :)

The company don't rate the players, the researchers do, and the researchers are not employed by SI. If you're going to blame bias, it is exactly the same with other leagues- the English researchers are known for being amongst the most impartial- so that should cancel out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Rooney was injured in WC2006 and incredfible at Euro2004. Yes, he was poor at WC2010, but so were Kaka and Ronaldo, are they overrated too?

Messi was also very average at the last WC, is he overrated too?

Firstly, Kaka and CR don't have such high mental stats,

Secondly, CR won 3 MoM in the group stage and scored a goal. Messi also created a few chances. Kaka got 3 assists.

Now back to Rooney, what does he have?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Owen has been injured soooooo much. Plus he has not been as consistent over the years, as great as he been in front of goal. The only stat that really matters for him really is composure and off the ball and he is very high in both of them.

Ronaldo and Messi have the right mental stats for what they are.

Zidane and Baggio......um....they are both retired.

Now before we take this any further I want you to understand something; mental attributes (among other things) govern the way that each player approaches the game. By just looking at the end result you are missing a lot of why rooney is built the way he is in game. Like I said before, Ronaldo, Messi, and Owen are built to do what they do in real life.

Ronaldo likes to find space, head to go to goal, and put on a show while doing so (aka flair, composure, off the ball etc.)

Messi likes to pick up the ball and create chances for himself and/or others as well as pop up in dangerous places at the most oppourtune moments (aka creativity, flair, off the ball etc.)

Owen is constantly looking for space, and if he finds it in the box they may not be anyone better than him at finishing off chances (aka off the ball and composure)

Now rooney.....he's got the stats that make him a dangerous attacker (off the ball and flair). He is also very strong willed and aggressive and he is constantly running around trying to get the ball whenever possible (teamwork, work rate, determination). He's also a freakin pyscho at times (very high aggression). All these things are true about him in real life as they are in the game.

The big thing here is that he does things that the other guys you mentioned (barring the retired guys) don't do. Ronaldo, Messi and Owen do have the work rate or the agression that Rooney has. That's why his mental stats are that high.

Owen did get injuried a lot, but what's that going to do with his mental stats?

In the game, almost everytime there are some important matches or derby, Rooney was like the Brazil Ronaldo in 1996. Score goals without a reason, is that realisitic?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Owen did get injuried a lot, but what's that going to do with his mental stats?

In the game, almost everytime there are some important matches or derby, Rooney was like the Brazil Ronaldo in 1996. Score goals without a reason, is that realisitic?

when you consider his perfomances for manchester united over the last few years, then yes it's realistic. asking for that to be toned down for 4 bad games the world for england is unrealistic, considering he'll more than likely replicate his form at united

Link to post
Share on other sites

when you consider his perfomances for manchester united over the last few years, then yes it's realistic. asking for that to be toned down for 4 bad games the world for england is unrealistic, considering he'll more than likely replicate his form at united

It's not 4, he also played at least 4 games 4 years ago in Germany, also very awful and didn't score a goal.

If I'm not wrong he got 17 on important matches, Kaka, CR and Messi only got 15, that's pretty funny.

Link to post
Share on other sites

he went to germany injured, and unfit. for manchester united, his mental stats are about right. look at the players for their clubs. their attributes are for the most part bang on. its when they come to play for england they struggle. why that is so is another story completely. but it doesnt warrant changing their attributes for their club unless you can code the behaviours specifially for the national team, and them that brings up all kinds of other problems

Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not 4, he also played at least 4 games 4 years ago in Germany, also very awful and didn't score a goal.

If I'm not wrong he got 17 on important matches, Kaka, CR and Messi only got 15, that's pretty funny.

Rooney scored 6 in 8 in the champions league last season.

And I'm certain he's performed well against many big clubs over the years

Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's say, if we make a data for Geoff Hurst in his years, what will you guys rate his mental stats and important matches? He also only scored 2 games in 1966 World Cup. His club career is not that awesome, never won a English league title. Will you guys put him under Rooney?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Just curious, do you believe that Cristiano Ronaldo should be lowered as well, he never turned up against Barcelona in the league and didn't look that impressive in the World Cup and he was poor in the champions league when it counted as well?

Also Kaka didn't turn up for Brazil when they needed him to so should his important match stat be lowered?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...