None-existent semi-positions/rigid match engine - SIs thoughts please

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- Are SI going to implement the missing position axis between the wide and central players, as discussed in this [thread=177746]thread[/thread] in the tactics forum.

- Basically the positions of SWLC, DLC, DMLC, MLC, AMLC, SLC and SWRC, DRC, DMRC, MRC, AMRC, SRC?

- The current problem being that players starting position, in certain phases of play is either out wide or in the centre.

Some formations (system) do however need players to start of in-between those three current vertical lines.

I agree with Marz, I have been calling for this to be added in after FM10's release, because as good as the match engine has become, it is STILL rigid in terms of player positioning and movement off the ball.

I really really hope one of the features of this year's FM is that they fix the Match Engine, especially the marking and closing down settings.

Speaking of closing down, I think the D-line should be improved also , along with closing down so that quality teams like Barca will be able to press as they do in real life against teams that are Inferior to them.

Moving to General Discussion as this is a feature request and not a bug.

My personal thoughts are that each player should have an individual width slider, rather than there just being a team one. Saves creating new positions, and increases flexibility.

Moving to General Discussion as this is a feature request and not a bug.

What are Sports Interactive thoughts on this issue? Which is pretty essential as it should be part of the ME (match engine); which should be the most important aspect of the game.

My personal thoughts are that each player should have an individual width slider, rather than there just being a team one. Saves creating new positions, and increases flexibility.

This has been suggested before ... most recently just after the ME/Tactic change that removed the forward/back & side arrow run indicators.

Personaly I agree, it would add an extra layer of flexibility to tactical development, we shouldn't have to ask for it, it should be there already.

The other position i would like to see is something like an SS (Second striker) Someone who drops behind the leading man and fills and position between attacking midfield and that striker. Could be described as a more visual representation of a deep lying forward. But many teams use this position and its often used when you have a Little/Large partnership

Would love these other positions added, deffo.

but I also like the width slider idea too

The problem with sliders for each player is, that people would have to adjust/tweak 11 more sliders during a match. And a few people already think that a degree in sliders is need to make them work; hence the introductions of the wizard in FM10. But keep the ideas coming till SI finally come back with their thoughts and intentions.

The other position i would like to see is something like an SS (Second striker) Someone who drops behind the leading man and fills and position between attacking midfield and that striker. Could be described as a more visual representation of a deep lying forward. But many teams use this position and its often used when you have a Little/Large partnership

I think a more dynamic approach would also be needed in the ME (match engine) for a role like that and others. The key being that the ME needs to calculate during dead ball phases where players should be.

(During kick-off, goalkicks, free-kicks [mainly defensive], throw-ins. The various values should be calculated to position players if need be away from their static/default positioning. But still within their overall position, just wider or more infield, more defensively or attackingly.)

Basically similarly to what we have at the moment when the ball is in play.

I think with the right changes to the sliders this Second Striker role is already possible to be played in the current ME. The problem is that visually (2d & 3d) the player will always first start playing from the default position. When he should already be in a position relating to the SS role (or other roles) to start with.

As it currently stands, players regardless of their instructions mainly start from their default positions. Which I believe are still largely defined by the with/without ball screens of CM3 from 10 years ago (fine at the time, especially as the defaults were changeable).

An even clearer example of the current problem in the FM10.3 ME are half-back roles. Here I think adding a dynamic approach (to dead ball phases) and the addition of the missing positions would bring the FM ME closer to real life.

(Full-backs are DL DR in FM, normally roles for the wide defenders when playing with 4 at the back. Centre-backs are DC in FM, normally roles for the central defenders, also when playing 4 at the back. Half-backs are not available in FM [in my opinion], normally roles for semi-wide defenders, when playing 3 or 5 at the back).

Half-backs in theory should be positioned at DLC/DRC (position does not exist in FM10.3). Currently people who like to play 343 or 352/532 or 523 in the FM10.3 ME, have to play their half-backs from the centre-back position of DCl DCr. It goes without saying that those positions are central. Thus during early build-up, with the goalkeeper having possession, there is no width provided by those half-backs (playing from DCl DCr).

Even worse when playing against opponents who play with 2 strikers, they stand next to them (taking themselves out as passing options). So the only (short) out ball for a possession based team is for the goalkeeper to play a “through the eye of a needle” pass to your DC.

With the added positions (SWLC, DLC, DMLC, MLC, AMLC, SLC and SWRC, DRC, DMRC, MRC, AMRC, SRC) I suggested the half-backs (playing from DLC DRC) would provide width (although not as much as full-backs; unless on high mentality and team width). With added dynamic calculations during phases like that, the opponents would also be able to counter more efficiently. By pressing the more creative defenders, thus playing wider away from their default static position.

Putting your players anywhere on the pitch is nice and deff a good addition but what is really lacking is the ability to tell your players where to move. The current movement options just don't cut it. You can't tell a DM to drop to DC position when your team is attacking, You can't tell your striker to drop into the AM position (at least not consistently) and when you tell your inside forwards to cut inside they walk to the corner flag half the time. It is just not flexible and reliable enough at the moment and if FM 2012 wants to bring significant improvements to the ME I think this is the place it should happen.

If we should have movement options for both the attacking phase (split between on the ball and off the ball) and the defensive phase and we should be able to let our players move wide/central and forward/deep as well as in between options and "free roam" options.

If we get more options in both the players starting position and movement in all phases of play I think this game will reach the next level of realism and will make this installment a real turning point in the series.

btw. I realize that offering such a huge level of flexibility and freedom is both difficult to implement and susceptible to "bugs" in the match engine but I feel the series has come to a point where it's the logical next step so I would like to encourage SI to investigate the options and take on this daunting task. I will love you forever if you succeed

That's why the good old CM with it's wibble/wobble was so great. Although there was actually no 2D/3D match engine to see player's positioning.

Putting your players anywhere on the pitch is nice and deff a good addition but what is really lacking is the ability to tell your players where to move.

It’s not about being able to put your players anywhere on the pitch. What others and I would like to see is:-

• Improvement in positional flexibility (starting/default position), this is needed for tactics/systems like 343, 352/532 or 523.
  
• Even formations with 4 at the back would be made more realistic, diamond 442 (4-1-2-1-2) or 433 (41221).
  

The current movement options just don't cut it. You can't tell a DM to drop to DC position when your team is attacking,

Lower the mentality, also try RFD (run from deep) to rarely.

You can't tell your striker to drop into the AM position (at least not consistently)

You could try lowering the mentality and RFD to rarely. Could leave RFD on mixed or even often deepening on the type of runs (and frequency,) you want him to make.

As for consistently dropping deep (come deep to get the ball as often as opportunity allows). You would have to train him via Preferred Moves -> Movement training.

Also bear in mind that the players’ attributes have an effect at how good the player would be with such a role/instruction.

and when you tell your inside forwards to cut inside they walk to the corner flag half the time.

I never had this problem, you need players with a preferred foot which makes them want to switch to their stronger foot; cut inside with the ball. So a left footer on the right and a right footer on the left, also attributes that match the role(s).

If you want them to drift inside, without the ball. Then it’s not the cut inside instruction, but the move into channel instruction that needs to be used, with RFD influencing the frequency of these runs it seems.

It is just not flexible and reliable enough at the moment and if FM 2012 wants to bring significant improvements to the ME I think this is the place it should happen.

I disagree. Because as explained above, a lot of the examples you gave can be achieved in the current ME. While the added positions (starting positions) are simply not existent in the current ME.

If we should have movement options for both the attacking phase (split between on the ball and off the ball) and the defensive phase and we should be able to let our players move wide/central and forward/deep as well as in between options and "free roam" options.

If we get more options in both the players starting position and movement in all phases of play I think this game will reach the next level of realism and will make this installment a real turning point in the series.

btw. I realize that offering such a huge level of flexibility and freedom is both difficult to implement and susceptible to "bugs" in the match engine but I feel the series has come to a point where it's the logical next step so I would like to encourage SI to investigate the options and take on this daunting task. I will love you forever if you succeed

I doubt we will get the much needed positions in FM12. As it would surely be a main feature, due to the time it would take to implement and test them. Like you and others I feel that the series would benefit from a bit more substance, instead of the bling bling features we have been getting lately.

If possible people (especially the developers) should try to watch Barcelona v Villarreal at 1.25pm, on Sky sports 1. Good example of the DLC, DRC, MLC & MRC positions, which are missing from the match engine.