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View Full Version : Please SI, can you sort out non-football costs in FM11!?



reflection22
22-07-2010, 14:39
Every game I play, they start off low and within a few seasons, rise to totally unsustainable levels. It's like the game is punishing you for being successful. Even if you get to the latter stages of the Champions League every season, it's still unbelievably hard to make any kind of profit. Bear in mind my wages are only 26million a year, so the non-football costs are now far higher than what I'm paying my players. They're higher than my player and staff wages combined! Take my current Birmingham game for example:

Season 1: Non-football costs = 6.5M (Finished 7th, won F.A Cup)
Season 2: 14.5m (Finished 4th)
Season 3: 15.5m (Finished 1st)
Season 4: 27m (Finished 1st, won League Cup & Europa League)
Season 5: 42m (Finished 1st, won League Cup, Champions League & Super Cup)

So in the space of 4 years, the non-football costs have risen by about 700%, from 6.5m to 42m! That's crazy surely, I mean I've been playing in the same division that whole time? Here's a screen shot near the end of the 5th season to show the ridiculous increase in just 1 year:

http://i25.tinypic.com/2zyzaxz.jpg

Please sort this out for the new FM, or at least look into why they rise so rapidly, as it can't be right. It's spoiling the game for me a bit.

Lucas Weatherby
22-07-2010, 15:09
Non-footballing costs will cover a lot of things, from extra staffing as the club gets bigger, etc. What is your reputation?

reflection22
22-07-2010, 15:19
A 700% increase from the end of season 1 to the end of season 5 though? 6.5m to 42m is a massive increase. The exact same thing happens every time I manage a club, like with Doncaster they were 2m in the first season, then by the end of season 6 they were around 40m.

My reputation is worldwide.

Also, look at the increase on a season by season basis:

Season 1 to Season 2: 6.5m to 14.5m (8m increase)
Season 3 to Season 4: 15.5m to 27m (11.5m increase)
Season 4 to Season 5: 27m to 42m (15m increase)

Should the way it rises not be more slow and steady, rather than such huge jumps in such a short space of time?


Non-footballing costs will cover a lot of things, from extra staffing as the club gets bigger, etc. What is your reputation?

Excolo
22-07-2010, 15:23
From my save game which I have managed in England, Italy and Spain, ive only seen these non-footballing costs increase by so much in England. I didn't keep track of the numbers for each year, but from the older versions of the save I have kept, my final years in both Juventus and Valencia came to around 12m , compared to my final season with Brighton totalling 48m. Before leaving, I had enjoyed a lot of success with each club over a 10-17 year period.

Lucas Weatherby
22-07-2010, 15:29
Each country does have their differences into how finances play out. It should also be remembered that on average, in real life, football clubs do lose money. Were the players you signed in the previous season (you had spent a lot of money on players in) of a high reputation (Continental)? It could well be that these non-footballing costs can be associated with marketing, etc.

reflection22
22-07-2010, 15:38
I have kept my wage bill to a really tight level, like 500k a weekish (26m a year). My total player and staff wage bill is around 30m. Look at teams in the big 4 in real-life, they are closer to 100m a year. So my wage output is really low for a team that's just won 3 leagues in a row and the Champions League. Now all my transfer deals have been payed off, I should be making a healthy profit each year. My highest paid player is on 25k a week.

For my non-football costs to have now reached 42m...it's strange for it to be so high compared to my wage bill and only 6.5m in year 1. I think the way it rises so quickly needs looking at, I understand they increase with reputation etc, but it should be a more steady increase.

I only sign young players on small wages, the transfer fees were a result of payments on 48 month deals building up.


Each country does have their differences into how finances play out. It should also be remembered that on average, in real life, football clubs do lose money. Were the players you signed in the previous season (you had spent a lot of money on players in) of a high reputation (Continental)? It could well be that these non-footballing costs can be associated with marketing, etc.

reflection22
22-07-2010, 15:44
I also noticed they were far lower when managing in foreign countries, they only seem to rise so quickly and dramatically in England. It seems very strange that at Brighton u were paying out 48m a year, and at Juve and Valencia only a quarter of that (12m). Seems the answer at the moment is to not manage in England.


From my save game which I have managed in England, Italy and Spain, ive only seen these non-footballing costs increase by so much in England. I didn't keep track of the numbers for each year, but from the older versions of the save I have kept, my final years in both Juventus and Valencia came to around 12m , compared to my final season with Brighton totalling 48m. Before leaving, I had enjoyed a lot of success with each club over a 10-17 year period.

Lord Rowell
22-07-2010, 17:33
I think, while I realise that SI don't want to turn FM into an accounts management program, that a bit more breakdown or info of what is entailed in "non-football costs" would be a good idea, even if it was just an explanation, perhaps with a mini-breakdown, that you could click on.

Jay-Producer
22-07-2010, 17:38
It is an area which is beyond rediculous. Completely unrealistic. No club in the world has a 700% increase over 4 years for non footballing costs. It makes the game unplayable because what I noticed was that every club was in debt in the year 2023 - Every club I went to view their accounts that was.

Krald
22-07-2010, 17:40
Well they can be somewhat high in Scotland too, although admitedly not as astounding, at a continental rep (a high one I'd imagine given europe and world performances) I'm paying around 23M per year (probably will be higher this year too). I suppose the problem you have with England is it's a very high reputation league and successes in it plus europe force your rep to grow at astromonical rates and hike up the costs quickly.

That'd be my guess, but still, the rise does seem crazy.

shezza88
22-07-2010, 17:52
I would like it if there was an expandable list to see exactly what money was going where?

Stemlfc65
22-07-2010, 18:24
Non footballing costs are going to be more expensive as your teams increases in reputation and stature.

Why? Simple.

Flights to and from European games. Masseurs. Travel insurance for the players and staff. Food bill. Training equipment. Scouts accommodation and flights to wherever you decide to send them. Sending players to specialists instead of physios.

Literally, anything like this. There are so much more but I'm a bit busy at the moment.

Are they realistic enough in the game? I'd say so. It's something you have to live with I'm afraid. Try trimming the fat though, such as not sending too many scouts.

Jay-Producer
22-07-2010, 18:58
Non footballing costs are going to be more expensive as your teams increases in reputation and stature.

Why? Simple.

Flights to and from European games. Masseurs. Travel insurance for the players and staff. Food bill. Training equipment. Scouts accommodation and flights to wherever you decide to send them. Sending players to specialists instead of physios.

Literally, anything like this. There are so much more but I'm a bit busy at the moment.

Are they realistic enough in the game? I'd say so. It's something you have to live with I'm afraid. Try trimming the fat though, such as not sending too many scouts.

Go and show everyone your evuidence that it is realistic. I will assure it is not. Who after just 3 years of doing well pays over 65million in non footballing costs per year. What you mention does not come to 65million every year.

Stemlfc65
22-07-2010, 19:13
Go and show everyone your evuidence that it is realistic. I will assure it is not. Who after just 3 years of doing well pays over 65million in non footballing costs per year. What you mention does not come to 65million every year.

Like I said, there is much, much more that what I've mentioned. I can't think off the top of my head everything but buying flights for a 23 man squad plus the staff adds up doesn't it? Especially when if you go all the way in Europe, you're looking at 8 away games in Europe per season.

I won't show you my evidence as I have no evidence. How could I have when it doesn't break non footballing costs down into sub sections? I'm just trying to put things into perspective. It's just my opinion and I believe it's totally realistic to expect sharp increases in non-footballing costs down to expenses that come with being a top team.

Lankylars
22-07-2010, 19:17
I agree with Stemlfc65; there are a lot of miscellaneous costs that factor in to the travel and other things that goes with being in multiple cups. The season it increased most, did you enter into new competitions or go further in multiple cups than you have before? Were matches played further away, requiring more travel?

reflection22
22-07-2010, 20:19
No. In season 3, the non-football costs were 15.5m, and I reached the semi-final of the Champions League. In season 5, I reached the final and won it, but the non-football costs were 42m. So I played one extra game in Europe, yet payed 26.5m more...


I agree with Stemlfc65; there are a lot of miscellaneous costs that factor in to the travel and other things that goes with being in multiple cups. The season it increased most, did you enter into new competitions or go further in multiple cups than you have before? Were matches played further away, requiring more travel?

edgar555
22-07-2010, 20:43
No. In season 3, the non-football costs were 15.5m, and I reached the semi-final of the Champions League. In season 5, I reached the final and won it, but the non-football costs were 42m. So I played one extra game in Europe, yet payed 26.5m more...

Yes, well done in not reading the posts fully. European games was one thing mentioned. He also talked about scouting bills and other items. I will admit your case seems extreme, but I'd be interested to know what else happened to your club in the time frame mentioned. New stadium? New training facilities? New feeder clubs etc, etc./
I've definitely read another thread about this subject (surprisingly) and an SI staff member said that non football costs related amongst other things to any staff who aren't players or manager along with Directors, marketing bods etc, etc, etc.
If you are succesful all of these will grow almost exponentially.

Swindon69
22-07-2010, 20:46
Well my NFC's doubled from my second to third season - I was playing in the same division in the 3rd tier in Spain and my scouts went to exactly the same areas as previously.

reflection22
22-07-2010, 20:56
I was replying to his post and point he made, but thanks for the sarcasm.

Anyway, if you hover over non-football costs, it says 'amount of non-football staff wages paid out by club'. How do scouting bills come under that, or even flights for that matter? These are covered in other categories such as 'match day expenses' and 'other'. Non-football costs, from the description provided by the game, are purely staff hired by the club that arent related to the football side. Ie, I have no control over them rising as I can't hire non-football staff.

Oh yea, and to answer your questions, I hadn't had a new stadium and have no feeder clubs. I have expaned my training facilities once.


Yes, well done in not reading the posts fully. European games was one thing mentioned. He also talked about scouting bills and other items. I will admit your case seems extreme, but I'd be interested to know what else happened to your club in the time frame mentioned. New stadium? New training facilities? New feeder clubs etc, etc./
I've definitely read another thread about this subject (surprisingly) and an SI staff member said that non football costs related amongst other things to any staff who aren't players or manager along with Directors, marketing bods etc, etc, etc.
If you are succesful all of these will grow almost exponentially.

edgar555
22-07-2010, 21:09
I was replying to his post and point he made, but thanks for the sarcasm.

Anyway, if you hover over non-football costs, it says 'amount of non-football staff wages paid out by club'. How do scouting bills come under that, or even flights for that matter? These are covered in other categories such as 'match day expenses' and 'other'. Non-football costs, from the description provided by the game, are purely staff hired by the club that arent related to the football side. Ie, I have no control over them rising as I can't hire non-football staff.

Oh yea, and to answer your questions, I hadn't had a new stadium and have no feeder clubs. I have expaned my training facilities once.

You're welcome ;)

I do believe however that too many things in FM are left unsaid and it would be much easier for us all (and result in much less bickering on the forums) if the manual told you exactly what the non football costs are, or exactly what 'the pressure is off' team talk relates too. There are loads of other examples.

Stemlfc65
22-07-2010, 21:20
Staff not to do with football.

Agents, cleaners, builders, canteen workers, directors etc

How much was it Man City have paid in agent fees recently? I seem to remember a figure around the 100m mark.

Brian Shanahan
22-07-2010, 23:39
Non-football staff is essentially wages paid out to any person employed by the club who is not directly involved in the football. This includes everybody form the tea lady up to the owner who bought the club on a leveraged scheme who's decided to take 10m a year out of the club as the authorities say robbing it blind is not a crime.

Jay-Producer
23-07-2010, 07:43
The main point to the thread was that you cant financialy survive being successful because non-footballing costs outweight incoming costs from success. That's the flaw. That's even with a tight wage bill etc.

Brose
23-07-2010, 16:02
And... how come the increase in club rep actually cause the club to lose money and not gain it? I mean if I am small and obscure, I will have money issues, but when I am big and famous, shouldn't I make back some of the costs via merchandizing etc?

Lankylars
23-07-2010, 19:06
The main point to the thread was that you cant financialy survive being successful because non-footballing costs outweight incoming costs from success. That's the flaw. That's even with a tight wage bill etc.

Is this always the case for clubs in FM? What are the costs for other clubs in your game (I'm probably wrong in assuming that we can check other clubs' financials in-game). I'd also be interested to see more real life examples; obviously lots of big, successful clubs struggle to turn any sort of profit. I am on lunch break at work though, so I can't really do any research into this now.

gerardpique
24-07-2010, 17:41
This happens in the lower leagues far worse where the match day expenses & non football costs are ridiculously high relative to the level the club is playing at. Plus thats not even mentioning the black hole that is the "Other" section of expenditure. It's not too noticable when your managing a club thats turnover is in the millions or tens of millions but when your a small team dealing in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of pounds at most over a season it definitely needs looking at as it's far, far higher than in real life.

xiaoken777
24-07-2010, 18:08
Has your overall income increased over the years?

gerardpique
24-07-2010, 18:31
Has your overall income increased over the years?

Nope, I'm playing in the league of Ireland premier division which is the highest level with european football every summer in one save so the income is steady year to year. If you don't get into europe without the few hundred grand from UEFA every summer you'd be screwed (my wage bill is 9k p/w too and rarely if ever sign players for a fee). Even in other saves outside of England in Serie C1, the Spanish & Portuguese 2nd divisions, Denmark & Swedens lower leagues etc where even if you just take the first season so as not to take into account promotion and income/ associated costs from playing in a higher division etc the match day expenses, non football costs and other sections of expenditure are always a massive black hole.

I know most wouldn't consider 300k disappearing through each of those sections in a season a lot but thats a hell of a lot of money at that level of the game. It always ends up totalling more expenditure for those three sections than income from gate reciepts.

In my loi save last season (as thats the one I have open and can get figures for in front of me):

Total income was 2.2m. Of that gate reciepts were 868k and prize money (with european football) 610k.

Total expenditure was 2.2m. Of that "non football costs" were 252k, "other" 304k and "match day expenses" 424k!

Thats a shocking amount of money at that level and that would be one of the higher amounts of turnovers I have managing in a small league. The figures are relatively speaking equally as high playing at lower levels than that with no european football. It definitely needs looking at. I highly doubt it will though as in the grand scheme of things those leagues don't matter a damn to SI really.

Ohanzee
24-07-2010, 19:13
I don't see how success can have anything to do with this.

Atm I'm playing with AFC Ajax. First season won league and EURO Cup. Second season won league and Champions Cup. My total Non-Football Costs for the second season? 2,9M! How can 42M in any way be reasonable for Birmingham? :confused:

That's just one of many things I find weird under finances though. For instance at Ajax now I'm getting 30M per season from somewhere. All it says is that it's from "Other sources". Black market trading I guess :p