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View Full Version : League runner-ups in Champions League Champions Qualifying Round???



RBKalle
07-07-2010, 19:52
This is a bit weird...

It's 2018-19, Norway has 2 teams in Champions League and 3 in EL.

However, there are THREE Norwegian sides in the CL fixtures

Rosenborg (my team): seeded in Group Stage/Defending Champions
Brann: Champions 2nd Qualifying Round
Molde: Best Placed 2nd Qualifying Round

That lead me to two questions:

Why is there a third team? Unless I remember it wrong, defending champions aren't granted a spot anymore, surely not if they earned it via League finishing position.

Why are Brann in the Champions Qualifying Round anyway?

jod123
07-07-2010, 19:54
Largely to do with your success, Norway might have climbed the coefficients table so that they now have an extra place in the Champions League. Check out the coefficients table.

Not sure about Brann in the Champions qualifying round though. I don't know if that is a bug or what would happen in reality in this case.

NepentheZ
07-07-2010, 20:12
Defending Champions get automatic entry. It's also very possible they're entered via the fair play league.

RBKalle
07-07-2010, 20:24
I've checked the coefficients, it's 2 teams in CL, 3 in EL.

Also, Fair Play draw gives an extra place in Europa League, not in Champions League.


Still, even though I might have been given the automatic entry as defending champion, that shouldn't affect the other CL berths in the league...

Say, Inter Milan will be in next CL as defending champions AND/OR as qualified team, but the 5th placed team in Serie A didn't get the "vacant" spot anyway...


So I still don't understand how there is a THIRD Norwegian team in CL, and how one of them is in the Champions pot, despite not having won the league...


I suspect a bug... Or an obscure rule I have never heard of

jod123
07-07-2010, 20:29
Well I know the rule in reality is that if the holder does not qualify via their domestic league then the lowest placed team does that finished in the qualifying positions in the league sacrifices their place.

In your example though being the holder with Rosenborg should not really make any difference as you are now just put in the group stage and the 2nd placed team i.e. Brann should be in the best placed qualifying rounds. So I would assume it is a bug unless someone else can point out something that I am missing as well.

BenArsenal
07-07-2010, 20:34
What are the finishing positions in the league for all three teams?

I'm guessing that particular scenario is possible if:

- Rosenborg won the CL but have not finished in the top 2 spots. They get automatic entry into the group stage next season as holders
- Brann, being league champions (if they are), get Rosenborg's champions qualifying slot.
- Molde, in second, get the non-champions qualifying slot

The holder replaces the last placed qualifer ONLY if the league has filled the maximum number of spots allocated (which is four). Otherwise the league simply gains an extra slot for the holders.

jod123
07-07-2010, 20:41
What are the finishing positions in the league for all three teams?

I'm guessing that particular scenario is possible if:

- Rosenborg won the CL but have not finished in the top 2 spots. They get automatic entry into the group stage next season as holders
- Brann, being league champions (if they are), get Rosenborg's champions qualifying slot.
- Molde, in second, get the non-champions qualifying slot

The holder replaces the last placed qualifer ONLY if the league has filled the maximum number of spots allocated (which is four). Otherwise the league simply gains an extra slot for the holders.

That last part explains it for me. I never knew about that rule.

For some reason I also misinterpreted the OP. I thought Rosenborg won the league as well and Brann and Molde finished 2nd and 3rd. I guess I should have read it more carefully :D

EDIT: Actually I knew I got that impression from somewhere. The title of the thread says that the league runners-up are in the Champions section so Brann must have been the runners-up. :confused:

RBKalle
07-07-2010, 21:26
I did win the league... (undefeated btw ;))

League positions:

1st Rosenborg
2nd Brann
3rd Molde

BenArsenal
07-07-2010, 21:40
I did win the league... (undefeated btw ;))

League positions:

1st Rosenborg
2nd Brann
3rd Molde

Hmm...

That's a bit odd. But I think it could be possible too.

I guess your Champions Qualifying Round slot simply got transferred down, since you qualified automatically as CL Winners. It doesn't sound very logical, but I think that's the most probable reason.

UEFA really needs to clean up their rules. They really are a mess sometimes.

Koki
07-07-2010, 23:19
Where can I check on the coefficients btw?

jod123
07-07-2010, 23:21
Where can I check on the coefficients btw?

Europe->Nations->Coefficients

Mr Wallin
08-07-2010, 08:48
I guess your Champions Qualifying Round slot simply got transferred down, since you qualified automatically as CL Winners. It doesn't sound very logical, but I think that's the most probable reason.

That's exactly what happened and it is what is supposed to happen.




UEFA really needs to clean up their rules. They really are a mess sometimes.

Have to disagree, UEFAs rules do have a lot of "if" and "but" in them but that is needed because of the multitude of possibilities they have to cover.




I suspect a bug... Or an obscure rule I have never heard of

It's not obscure tbh, has been the same since it was put in place too.

Just be glad you got a better seeding than what you would have gotten through your league finish. :thup:

sammyt93
08-07-2010, 09:33
I guess your Champions Qualifying Round slot simply got transferred down, since you qualified automatically as CL Winners. It doesn't sound very logical, but I think that's the most probable reason.

UEFA really needs to clean up their rules. They really are a mess sometimes.

but surely the team from another nation that should have had the auto group stage place he took would get the champions place he vacated and brann would have stuck to the best placed draw and molde wouldn't have entered.

BenArsenal
08-07-2010, 09:41
but surely the team from another nation that should have had the auto group stage place he took would get the champions place he vacated and brann would have stuck to the best placed draw and molde wouldn't have entered.

Nope.

The holders spot doesn't belong to any league. It goes to the holders regardless of where they come from.

In that sense, Rosenborg didn't 'take' another club's spot. They qualified as holders. They get their own slot.

dontask
08-07-2010, 11:58
Nope.

The holders spot doesn't belong to any league. It goes to the holders regardless of where they come from.

In that sense, Rosenborg didn't 'take' another club's spot. They qualified as holders. They get their own slot.

yes i believe this is how the game does it tho it is actually wrong according to the real life rules

BenArsenal
08-07-2010, 12:16
yes i believe this is how the game does it tho it is actually wrong according to the real life rules

It's not.

http://en.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Regulations/competitions/Regulations/01/48/42/49/1484249_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Article 2, Section 2.03.

Titleholder

2.03
The UEFA Champions League titleholder is guaranteed a place in the group stage even if it does not qualify for the competition through its domestic championship.

a) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the UEFA Champions League and qualifies for the UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the lowest-ranked club of the associationís UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League (into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the number of places to which the titleholder's national association is entitled in the UEFA Champions League and the UEFA Europa League does not change.

b) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to four places in the UEFA Champions League and does not qualify for the UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, the lowest-ranked club of the associationís UEFA Champions League representatives is automatically transferred to the UEFA Europa League (into the latest possible round where there is a vacancy). In this case, the national association of the titleholder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Europa League.

c) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to fewer than four places in the UEFA Champions League and qualifies for the UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, it is entitled to play in the UEFA Champions League in addition to the associationís other UEFA Champions League representative(s). In this case, the combined number of places to which the titleholder's national association is entitled in the UEFA Champions League and UEFA Europa League does not change.

d) If the titleholder comes from an association entitled to fewer than four places in the UEFA Champions League and does not qualify for the UEFA Champions League or UEFA Europa League through its domestic competitions, it is entitled to play in the UEFA Champions League in addition to the associationís other UEFA Champions League representative(s). In this case, the national association of the titleholder is entitled to one additional place in the UEFA Champions League.

makie1874
08-07-2010, 12:33
did any of they teams win the europa league?

bigdunk
08-07-2010, 13:03
It's exactly as BenArsenal's quotes say. The holders always qualify automatically, but any league can have a maximum of 4 CL spots only. So in this case, you get your spot for being the holders plus the 2 spots your league gets. If an English team won it, they'd only get 4 spots because they cannot have the additional spot for being holder.

RBKalle
08-07-2010, 18:26
Still, the Article 2, section 2.03 has nothing to do with the case at hand...

My team won BOTH Champions League and domestic league...

So I suppose my "regular" spot got handed to the Runner-ups and theirs to the 3rd placed team anyway.

What does the official rule say about titleholders who qualify via domestic league? Had Bayern won the Cup last year, would have Germany got an extra/free CL spot?

Krald
08-07-2010, 19:19
I saw scotland get 4 champions league spots one year, instead of two, I suppose because I won the champions league and we must've had fair-play award thing.

Of course they were horribly squandered, as the only good scottish teams on my st mirren game are st mirren and celtic. Rangers didn't make it through one qualifying round, and strangely hearts got to the group stage (might have even been auto-put in - we had three scottish sides in the group stage) but they lost every single game apart from 1 draw.

BenArsenal
10-07-2010, 17:36
Still, the Article 2, section 2.03 has nothing to do with the case at hand...

My team won BOTH Champions League and domestic league...

So I suppose my "regular" spot got handed to the Runner-ups and theirs to the 3rd placed team anyway.

What does the official rule say about titleholders who qualify via domestic league? Had Bayern won the Cup last year, would have Germany got an extra/free CL spot?

Apparantly that was the word going around, but I can't be entirely sure.

Truth be told, I think what Uefa would do IRL would be to 'push' up the lesser nations (those ranked below yours), with the extra spot eventually going to one of the smaller leagues.

I don't know really. It's pretty complicated.