PDA

View Full Version : Is there a knack for winning those games you're not meant to win?



olrion
07-07-2010, 11:34
At the beginning of every new season in my Manchester City league, when looking at the fixture list I can pick off every game I know I am going to lose throughout the season.

In three seasons I have never recorded a win or draw against Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea or Liverpool and I just wondered if there is any way to topple the big clubs, because if I could turn those oblgitory eight defeats into either draws or wins, I could end the season a little closer to the head of the table.

I have tried everything. Adjusting tactics - not adjusting tactics. Listening to assitant feedback and making players mark dangermen and to be physical with them, as well as dismissing assistant advice. Changing mentality to soak up pressure and counter, and not changing mentality. You get the picture, I'm sure, but nothing works and I always lose.

I would say that it's fair enough because it's City vs United or against Chelsea, so the likes of Chelsea are meant to win. But I've spent a lot of money, got a great squad and every now and then a club like City will take points off one of the top four. I can't, for love nor money!

HELP! And please don't say, "it's your tactics, mate."

footballhead
07-07-2010, 12:21
It's probably your tactics, mate.

:P

Honestly. try a counter attack (away from home). Control at home. If you aren't retaining possesion switch it round. Try mind games with the managers next time round, might be worth a punt.

stemlfc
07-07-2010, 12:28
Short and quick tempo plus counter attack (if you're expecting a hurting) or control (if you think you have the players to control and frustrate them).

stevereay
07-07-2010, 13:20
Really all depends on your tactics. Peronally i have a good 4-4-2 which against most teams in the league is good enough to win. However when i come up against a tough away game or the better teams in the league i drop one to the strikers into a dm position and set him as a dmc so im playing 4-1-4-1. That tends to be enough for me to scrape a tight win our hard fought draw.

The Lambs
07-07-2010, 13:30
In addition to the others, do try a bit of mind games, it sometimes fires up the players.

My biggest tip I can give is to use the no pressure team talk, I find this gives great results.

Dion\'s Jock Strap
07-07-2010, 14:09
I don't profess to be an expert FM player, but I am enjoying some success with Villa at the moment in my FM10 save, particularly against those team who we would expect to lose to. For example, this season (2nd season) we have beaten Man Utd 3-0 at home, Chelsea 3-0 away and Man City 1-0 away. Even though they have the better players man for man, I find that careful consideration of tactics is the key.

By that, I don't necesssarily mean 'play counter attack away'. Let me give you an example from last night's 1-0 win against Man City. First thing I note is that they line up with Tevez and Robinho up front so automatically I am thinking I am in trouble if I let them get the ball to these two, but I'll probably be able to manage any crosses into the box as neither of them would have the beating of Richard Dunne and Curtis Davies in the air. So, I tell my DC's to NOT tight mark (I don't want them turned quickly). I also look at their wingers and realise that they are very quick, and very tricky so I tell both my FB (Luke Young and Warnock) NOT to bother tight marking, not to close them down and to show them onto the foot relating to their position (so SWP who is on the right, is shown onto the right). It might sound weird as that is his stronger side, but remember, I am trying to encourage them to resort to crossing from the byline and if I showed SWP onto the inside, he could get the ball to Tevez's feet.

That's just one example, and the tactics thread is probably a good place to find more info. I made sure the team played narrow, but made sure the team DID NOT HASSLE the opponents (i.e. come and break us down!). I would have been happy with a point, but Rafael VDV struck a 30 yarder to give me the points. Even though Man City had about 17 shots at goal, only 4 were on target, and none were clear cut chances.

Hope this helps.

England4Ever
07-07-2010, 18:57
What formation are you using against the bg teams? I have been using 4-3-1-2 against the big teams, Arsenal, Liverpool, Man utd, Man City and Chelsea., getting wins ad draws against them on a regular basis. I usually put a trained FC just behind the 2 strikers, Give the team instructions to play a direct style, be more creative, use the Default Closing down style, use Default Tackling and Marking, and to Drill their Crosses in to the area.

Hope this helps you in future,

England4Ever

Carmi88
08-07-2010, 00:36
in my new save, i just lost to man city, despite having a man advantage, 2 penalties and dominating possesion, they scored in the 96th minute when there were only 4 minutes added on, typical

stevio11
08-07-2010, 06:15
Seriuosly, you can't be struggling as with the money Man city have, they normally dominate the league. Are you sure its not your players but playing as Liverpool, I always say " do for the fans" which normally works and a 4-5-1 formation is good as well.

olrion
08-07-2010, 10:07
I don't profess to be an expert FM player, but I am enjoying some success with Villa at the moment in my FM10 save, particularly against those team who we would expect to lose to. For example, this season (2nd season) we have beaten Man Utd 3-0 at home, Chelsea 3-0 away and Man City 1-0 away. Even though they have the better players man for man, I find that careful consideration of tactics is the key.

By that, I don't necesssarily mean 'play counter attack away'. Let me give you an example from last night's 1-0 win against Man City. First thing I note is that they line up with Tevez and Robinho up front so automatically I am thinking I am in trouble if I let them get the ball to these two, but I'll probably be able to manage any crosses into the box as neither of them would have the beating of Richard Dunne and Curtis Davies in the air. So, I tell my DC's to NOT tight mark (I don't want them turned quickly). I also look at their wingers and realise that they are very quick, and very tricky so I tell both my FB (Luke Young and Warnock) NOT to bother tight marking, not to close them down and to show them onto the foot relating to their position (so SWP who is on the right, is shown onto the right). It might sound weird as that is his stronger side, but remember, I am trying to encourage them to resort to crossing from the byline and if I showed SWP onto the inside, he could get the ball to Tevez's feet.

That's just one example, and the tactics thread is probably a good place to find more info. I made sure the team played narrow, but made sure the team DID NOT HASSLE the opponents (i.e. come and break us down!). I would have been happy with a point, but Rafael VDV struck a 30 yarder to give me the points. Even though Man City had about 17 shots at goal, only 4 were on target, and none were clear cut chances.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for all of these, I will try them out.

Now - when you say ''Show them on to their weaker foot", how do you do that exactly. Is it in the player instructions section or a player interaction option. Lots of people have mentioned it on these forums and I never know where to find it.....

olrion
08-07-2010, 10:14
Seriuosly, you can't be struggling as with the money Man city have, they normally dominate the league. Are you sure its not your players but playing as Liverpool, I always say " do for the fans" which normally works and a 4-5-1 formation is good as well.

I am being deadly serious, unfortunately. It should be easy considering the money I have spent on brining in new players, but still I can't manage to instill any continuity.

I play 4-4-2 with two wingers pushing up on either flank and two cente mids, one pushing forward and one sitting back. I use the "do it for the fans" team talk too, but I'd guess that my City players don't like the fans too much.

I just don't understand how I don't win more than I do, the computer just always knows how to beat me.

olrion
08-07-2010, 10:19
in my new save, i just lost to man city, despite having a man advantage, 2 penalties and dominating possesion, they scored in the 96th minute when there were only 4 minutes added on, typical

Yeah, that's happened to me more times than I can remember.

Sunlock
08-07-2010, 10:58
Well despite the City money, money isnt everything, you need reputation as well, plus players who will die for the club. This will take time, sure you can mock everything down in a few seasons, the question is if it will be a steady run. A good way to adjust to this fact is getting in youths and level them up, this way you get players who love the club, and not a dirtbag who is waiting for a better offer.

So when is your reputation in order? When you are number one on the coficient list, and top 5 in rich clubs.

then you need the metal.

So in what order should one aim to achieve this goal, the first 5 seasons your main goal is to win teh leauge as much as possible, and meanwhile doing that aim to get as many euro points as possible. The small cups doesnt really matter that much, you'll win some and loose more, however your major concern to maintain your status will be winning the league and ,maintain a high possition in the euro points. That way you get prone to beat an opponent like man utd.

Dion\'s Jock Strap
09-07-2010, 08:06
Thanks for all of these, I will try them out.

Now - when you say ''Show them on to their weaker foot", how do you do that exactly. Is it in the player instructions section or a player interaction option. Lots of people have mentioned it on these forums and I never know where to find it.....

It's in the 'Opposition Instructions' just before you give your team talk.

tdpatriots12
09-07-2010, 08:14
Here's what I do. It seems to work, but it also destroys your team's stamina. So use sparingly.

For opposition instructions do what you normally do. If you normally do nothing and have an Assman with good Tactical skills, ask him to do it for you.

Then, in your tactics screen, set specific marking for everybody. Or at the very least everyone except your central defenders (leave them on their normal - I assume Zonal) settings. MR marks the opposing DL, DR marks the opposing ML, your best midfield destroyer marks their attacking midfielder, and I have my central defenders mark whichever striker they would be more successful against. For central defenders I tend to have a setup that allows me to be flexible - two fast defenders, two tall defenders, mix of fast/tall, so if I'm facing Crouch and Defoe, I'll start say Otamendi and put him on Defoe and Oguchi Onyewu and put him on Crouch. This seems to have the effect - at least in my experience - of forcing your players to challenge their marker in a tackle more swiftly than any other setup I've tried.

In your Touchline shouts, set to Hassle Opponents and Get Stuck In. If a player on your team picks up a Yellow card, go into tactics and manually set just his Tackling to Easy.

Also, set your mentality to Counter and use Drop Deeper (especially if you're heavy underdogs), Pass the Ball Into Space and/or Get the Ball Forward.

It does depend though on how - specifically - you feel like you're outclassed. If your primary advantage is your ability to pass the ball, you could play Control and essentially deny them the ball by playing keep away. But you're playing a dangerous game especially if they have Strikers with good Anticipation (in addition to their other skills) and players with good passing.

lawd
11-07-2010, 15:12
I just won the world cup in 2014 with frankly a poor(ish) England side, beating Argentina, Germany, and an absolutley amazing Italy in the final. Tricks I have found are pre-,atch Team talk= Wish luck. Seriously it takes of so much pressure off and you get good performances spread out through the side. Pack the midfield and use a possesion sytstem, I have a tempo a little quicker then normal, and starting strategy set to counter, with 3 CM just, like irl possesion is so so important. I reckon being bold can be a great tactic, if your drawing going into the last 20 mins but feel you are the better side and have looked more likely to score, then switch to an attacking game plan and try to win it. Those little things have helped me win tthe type of games your on about.

Lord Rowell
11-07-2010, 15:36
I am being deadly serious, unfortunately. It should be easy considering the money I have spent on brining in new players, but still I can't manage to instill any continuity.

I play 4-4-2 with two wingers pushing up on either flank and two cente mids, one pushing forward and one sitting back. I use the "do it for the fans" team talk too, but I'd guess that my City players don't like the fans too much.

I just don't understand how I don't win more than I do, the computer just always knows how to beat me.

I think your tactics are part of the problem. With only one midfielder holding position you're going to get outnumbered in the centre, you'll find it difficult to win the ball and difficult to retain it & recycle possession when you are attacking. This is compounded by your having two wingers that are hugging the touching and hence on the periphery of play.

If you're going to play 442, you need two CM's that will hold position to some extent, for example a DM and maybe an Advanced Playmaker (support - this role has RFD set to 'rare'). You can afford maybe to have one winger, but not two. For example you might want to have a WM (support) on one side and then a Winger (attack) on the other side.

All that said, I would consider switching to 3 x CM's, for example have one defensive, one box-to-box, one attacking, because this will make it easier for you to dominate the centre of the pitch and control the game / stop the opposition from controling. Doing this also gives you a bit more freedom in using your wide players in an attacking role.

With respect to the mental approach, you presumably have a good side as Man City manager so, if you're starting from a more solid tactical base along the lines I've suggested, you don't need to show the opposition as much respect. Don't be frightened to have an attacking mentality - take the game to them! :)

Krald
11-07-2010, 15:38
Honestly tactic depends upon the opposition I think, I know I've not really played EPL yet, but try and see what they're planning to play with, and try to come up with something that'll counter it. I know teams that have 3 attacking midfielders and 1 striker I feel I always have to have at least one DM to have a realistic chance against them, for example.

I've found when my team sucked honestly 4-3-3 being my best bet against some of the tougher teams, then when it got better, a 5-3-2 with wingbacks (pushed up a bit) and one AM or treq behind the strikers seemed to give me an outside chance of winning tough games. Yet has my team got better i honestly started to find 4-4-2 better against a lot of teams, even in europe.

So basically I tend to like to be somewhat defensive typically, but it's about playing to your teams strengths I find. If you've got the right players, 4-4-2 has a chance against most anything (although I tend to have two wingers on the subs bench so I keep up pressure even late on in a game).

Krald
11-07-2010, 15:38
Honestly tactic depends upon the opposition I think, I know I've not really played EPL yet, but try and see what they're planning to play with, and try to come up with something that'll counter it. I know teams that have 3 attacking midfielders and 1 striker I feel I always have to have at least one DM to have a realistic chance against them, for example.

I've found when my team sucked honestly 4-3-3 being my best bet against some of the tougher teams, then when it got better, a 5-3-2 with wingbacks (pushed up a bit) and one AM or treq behind the strikers seemed to give me an outside chance of winning tough games. Yet has my team got better i honestly started to find 4-4-2 better against a lot of teams, even in europe.

So basically I tend to like to be somewhat defensive typically, but it's about playing to your teams strengths I find. If you've got the right players, 4-4-2 has a chance against most anything (although I tend to have two wingers on the subs bench so I keep up pressure even late on in a game).

kyleb1985
13-07-2010, 06:29
Have you played 4-1-4-1 with an anchor man dmc? Try and stifle them as much as possible play counter and control with short passing if you have fast wingers play down both flanks or target their weak link with your counters as city i have drawn with Chelsea and Man U away 0-0 Liverpool 2-2 away and beat Arsenal 4-0 at home wh6 have you signed?

fm_champ99
14-07-2010, 14:08
tbh i always do well against the top teams without trying to hard, its against the lower reputation teams i struggle against, in my everton save i beat real madrid (second season) 3-0 at home but then got beat 3-0 by wolves

robertcornell68
15-07-2010, 08:23
Personally, I just go for it and attack. Sure, I might get stuffed but I'll feel better about it. If I do score, then I start thinking about parking the bus.

(Edit: Yes, it does work.)

AB-forever
15-07-2010, 14:41
A thing that usually works for me is to man mark the opposition playmaker.

olrion
16-07-2010, 13:01
Have you played 4-1-4-1 with an anchor man dmc? Try and stifle them as much as possible play counter and control with short passing if you have fast wingers play down both flanks or target their weak link with your counters as city i have drawn with Chelsea and Man U away 0-0 Liverpool 2-2 away and beat Arsenal 4-0 at home wh6 have you signed?

My signings make my side look like this:

Ochoa

Richards Chivu K. Toure Bridge


Ribery Defour V.D. Vaart Ozil

Tevez Hulk

With these guys on making up the rest of the squad:

Hart
Given
Onuoha
Lescott
Helan
De Jong
Barry
Rodwell
Ireland
Shelvey
Wrigh-Phillips
Assulin
Cristaldo
Adebayor

I've got Inter Milan in the Champions League sem-final next and I am 3-1 down from the first leg, which was played at Eastlands. So, if you have any quick fix solutions, now would be a great time to help me out!

olrion
16-07-2010, 13:08
tbh i always do well against the top teams without trying to hard, its against the lower reputation teams i struggle against, in my everton save i beat real madrid (second season) 3-0 at home but then got beat 3-0 by wolves

I always manage to lose to Wolves too! But then again, I lost to teams like Burnley, Sunderland and Wigan as well.

The Lambs
16-07-2010, 13:28
I would look at playing a 4-1-2-2-1

So take off Tevez or Hulk depending on who has the worst form at the moment and use him as a super sub.
Push Ozil and Ribery up to the AMR and AML positions with instructions to cut in.
Put your best DM in as holding roll.

Play with a tempo just under medium and passing on the short side. This is also a fairly attacking formation.

I find that variations of this formation seem to work well for me, I actually play with my two wide wingers playing as strikers. So I have a 4-1-2-0-3 formation, but that is a bit extreme for some people and limits who you can sign in those positions.

chesterfan2
16-07-2010, 13:50
What always gets me is not only can I pick which games my Liverpool team are going to lose which is, Arsenal & ManYoo always, we surprisngly have a better record against Chelsea. But what really gets me is how bad the game does it. In no other match is Reina inexplicably caught out of position in order to allow Rooney to score. In no other game does Torres always shoot straight at Almunia 14 times in a row. In no other games do my midfileders invariably pass to the opposition.

I accept Liverpool are not going to win every match but why does the game make them play so inept when we play those two ?

I also know that there are going to be games when Reina Makes a mistake, Torres can't hit a barn door, and Gerrard, Gorcuff & Rodriguez will have bad games, but all of them at once whenever we play Arsenal or ManYoo ? Come on, it's not even slightly realistic.

The Lambs
16-07-2010, 14:34
Weird how some people struggle against the big 4 and others don't.

I just beat Man Utd 5-2. At half time it was 2-1 to me and they had a good goal disallowed, but I turned it arround with the team talk and we stuffed them 5-2 and it could of been more as we had 3 goals offside.

olrion
19-07-2010, 13:12
Weird how some people struggle against the big 4 and others don't.

I just beat Man Utd 5-2. At half time it was 2-1 to me and they had a good goal disallowed, but I turned it arround with the team talk and we stuffed them 5-2 and it could of been more as we had 3 goals offside.

What team talk did you use?

If I ever try and rouse my team during half time, they go out and play worse.

olrion
19-07-2010, 13:20
What always gets me is not only can I pick which games my Liverpool team are going to lose which is, Arsenal & ManYoo always, we surprisngly have a better record against Chelsea. But what really gets me is how bad the game does it. In no other match is Reina inexplicably caught out of position in order to allow Rooney to score. In no other game does Torres always shoot straight at Almunia 14 times in a row. In no other games do my midfileders invariably pass to the opposition.

I accept Liverpool are not going to win every match but why does the game make them play so inept when we play those two ?

I also know that there are going to be games when Reina Makes a mistake, Torres can't hit a barn door, and Gerrard, Gorcuff & Rodriguez will have bad games, but all of them at once whenever we play Arsenal or ManYoo ? Come on, it's not even slightly realistic.

That sounds exactly like the games I have against the top four. I don't get outplayed, all my players just forget how to finish, defend and my most consistent players will make uncharacteristic mistakes.

I'm glad you said that Reina gets caught out of position in big games. Sure, it can happen but I tend to concede in the same manner against the big opposition, which is frustrating. I will miss all my chances in attack and then in defence Ochoa will clear the ball and play it straight to Van Persie, Drogba, Rooney or Torres and they will be left with a tap in. That kinda shizzle never happens to me - where my strikers are gifted simple goals from AI mistakes. And I swear I have at least 70% more goals disallowed for an offside or infringement.

Liverpool in my league (Just started my fourth season) won the league last year recording 34 wins 4 draws and not a single defeat. They won the league in April! How are you supposed to compete with that?!?!?

olrion
19-07-2010, 13:23
I would look at playing a 4-1-2-2-1

So take off Tevez or Hulk depending on who has the worst form at the moment and use him as a super sub.
Push Ozil and Ribery up to the AMR and AML positions with instructions to cut in.
Put your best DM in as holding roll.

Play with a tempo just under medium and passing on the short side. This is also a fairly attacking formation.

I find that variations of this formation seem to work well for me, I actually play with my two wide wingers playing as strikers. So I have a 4-1-2-0-3 formation, but that is a bit extreme for some people and limits who you can sign in those positions.

Cheers for the pointers. I will give it a try.

Played my first league game (4th Season) and beat Newcastle 2-1 away. It will probably all go downhill from here though!

I can't believe I have managed to last four seasons at City!

olrion
19-07-2010, 13:26
Where is the tempo option? I know it used to be in the main Team Instructions menu but I've not noticed it in FM2009 or 2010.

USToffeeFan
19-07-2010, 19:10
It's your tactics man! With the right tactics even my stock Everton team can beat any team in the league. Personally I prefer 4-1-2-0-3 or 4-1-2-1-1 (narrow diamond), but your own mileage might vary.
* The most obvious thing is to make sure you manually set it so your attackers never take long distance shoots. They'll still do, but will happen a lot less often.
* Short passes seems to help with the attacking games
* Always play attacking soccer... well and also defensive/counter is just too luck based
* Pair your DCs to Stopper and Cover.
* Make sure you have a fast striker and a target striker. Set one to advance forward and the other to poacher
And the rest depends on your team.
Oh and sign a few wonderkids too. :)

Oh the tempo option is indeed under Team Instructions, but you have to click on Advanced button to see it :P

blurps
19-07-2010, 19:24
My signings make my side look like this:

Ochoa

Richards Chivu K. Toure Bridge


Ribery Defour V.D. Vaart Ozil

Tevez Hulk

Oh my, it's amazing that you win any match at all with that sort of line up. Try adding some players who can actually defend and win the ball. When playing 4-4-2 you can't just put four all out attacking guys into the midfield.

aderow
19-07-2010, 19:41
At the beginning of every new season in my Manchester City league, when looking at the fixture list I can pick off every game I know I am going to lose throughout the season.

In three seasons I have never recorded a win or draw against Arsenal, Man United, Chelsea or Liverpool and I just wondered if there is any way to topple the big clubs, because if I could turn those oblgitory eight defeats into either draws or wins, I could end the season a little closer to the head of the table.

I have tried everything. Adjusting tactics - not adjusting tactics. Listening to assitant feedback and making players mark dangermen and to be physical with them, as well as dismissing assistant advice. Changing mentality to soak up pressure and counter, and not changing mentality. You get the picture, I'm sure, but nothing works and I always lose.

I would say that it's fair enough because it's City vs United or against Chelsea, so the likes of Chelsea are meant to win. But I've spent a lot of money, got a great squad and every now and then a club like City will take points off one of the top four. I can't, for love nor money!

HELP! And please don't say, "it's your tactics, mate."

Go overload and use get the ball forward, play narrower, and exploit the flanks. I beat sevilla with xerez on the road 3-0 using this. If your feeling crazy, give this a try :thup:


in my new save, i just lost to man city, despite having a man advantage, 2 penalties and dominating possesion, they scored in the 96th minute when there were only 4 minutes added on, typical

sounds more like you were playing man utd......fergie time ftw!