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jayahr
01-07-2010, 10:19
In general I believe that training could do with quite a few improvements, but this one thing is something which I believe could add a lot to it. :thup:

It would be great if we could instruct the players to try and improve one specific attribute.
This could be done as a further option like the positional training one, i.e. also taking 10% of the training workload and thus assuring a certain improvement there on the one side while at the same time taking a notable amount of training time.

So far, you can try to shape players by assigning them to individual schedules with different focuses, but all areas cover a variety of attributes, rather than just one. I think it would be useful if we could also single out a single attribute for improvement for various reasons:

- Shaping a player could become a bit less work for the user when you can set one individual attribute while keeping him in a more general schedule as opposed to creating individual schedules for every player.
- You can level out attribute imbalances. You may have a defender with just one weakness in a key attribute. You may want to try and raise this specific attribute by four rather than raising it along with other key attributes by one each.
- By this way it is also possible to overcome possibly remaining balancing weaknesses in the creation of newgens which were discussed on here to death.
- You can choose to either fight the weaknesses or increase the strentgh of a player to the maximum. It would reflect the rl approach to individual training a lot better than before.

Probably, this would not be applicable to each and every attribute. Especially mental ones may be more difficult or impossible to influence by training (and be it by a psychologist), but most technical and physical attributes should imho easily be able to be a special focus of individual training.

I hope you like this. :)
Your thoughts?

jayahr
01-07-2010, 14:37
No comments at all? :(

Or is this idea just too good? ;)

Scottyzx12
01-07-2010, 15:27
Sounds like a good idea to me :thup:

aderow
01-07-2010, 15:33
I think it would be a good idea.

Like how kept going on about all the training he did last summer heading the ball....and that turned out well ;)

It would also help you, at least attempt to, balance out some of the regens attributes aka a very fast, very good dribbling winger with no first touch or poor crossing ability or finishing ability etc.

AcidBurn
01-07-2010, 15:36
I think this is a great idea, I have a few players who have had one stat that I wanted to improve.

x42bn6
01-07-2010, 15:39
I'd rewrite the entire module to be based around drills, instead of sliders, rather than just focusing on one attribute.

Jops14
01-07-2010, 16:17
Yeah i also think this is a brilliant idea.

My only concern is, if this were to take place, surely it would then become too easy just to create a group of regen strikers all wiht 20 finishing? Although having thought about that, most people would probably see more benefits from balancing out their players...

aderow
01-07-2010, 17:29
Yeah i also think this is a brilliant idea.

My only concern is, if this were to take place, surely it would then become too easy just to create a group of regen strikers all wiht 20 finishing? Although having thought about that, most people would probably see more benefits from balancing out their players...

Sure if all of your regens had a low CA and a finishing of 17/18 to start with. Im sure that if SI were to go this route they would make sure that a player could only train up a certain point. Also its not like would only working on his finishing. When you ask a player to train for a particular PPM he doesn't stop all other training.

Besides, even if you have a striker with 20 for finishing he will only be effective if he has good levels of other key attributes.

easternhawk2
01-07-2010, 17:31
I'd rewrite the entire module to be based around drills, instead of sliders, rather than just focusing on one attribute.

I think this idea would be good(I've been asking for it), but i also think that Jayahr's idea is also a very good idea. Please SI include one of these in the Fm 2011

HakanMild
01-07-2010, 17:45
I'd rewrite the entire module to be based around drills, instead of sliders, rather than just focusing on one attribute.

It's funny I keep hearing about this suggestion.

It was around (I think in CM02/03 or 03/04) and most people didn't like it since it was a hassle. People just ended up downloading the ultimate schedule that would increase the attributes the most and it didn't really add anything to anyone's game experience.

x42bn6
01-07-2010, 18:00
It's funny I keep hearing about this suggestion.

It was around (I think in CM02/03 or 03/04) and most people didn't like it since it was a hassle. People just ended up downloading the ultimate schedule that would increase the attributes the most and it didn't really add anything to anyone's game experience.
The idea I keep writing about (not here, takes too long) would be that you would have an option to let your assistant do it all if necessary - which may roughly correspond to what happens in real life (i.e. I'd imagine Fergie does not micromanage all the training himself - he lets his assistants and coaches do most of it, but he supervises and intervenes if he wishes). Some managers may be hands-on - some may not be.

Any option should allow users to "plugin" a downloaded schedule in a similar way to you downloading tactics and using them without much thought.

A drill-based training regime would allow a more flexible way to mould your players (i.e. now I can get Wes Brown to practice crossing without him practicing corners and free kicks), reflects real-life better but also has restrictions (i.e. it's not a per attribute training - some drills increase more than one attribute, such as piggy-in-the-middle - passing, technique, concentration, etc.).

The current system is very poor and counter-intuitive. Player development cannot be reduced to less than 10 sliders and hiring coaches. It's much deeper than that.

Jops14
01-07-2010, 18:05
I loved the CM4 training thta focused on drills, i found it great fun to organise.

jayahr
01-07-2010, 21:01
My only concern is, if this were to take place, surely it would then become too easy just to create a group of regen strikers all wiht 20 finishing? Although having thought about that, most people would probably see more benefits from balancing out their players...

Exactly.

If you train a key attribute then you' have an automatic levelling due to the attribute weight. A striker with 20 finishing will lack in other areas which could even render that skill close to useless.

I think that it would be okay and realistic if you could improve one certain attribute more than others and you wouldn't/shouldn't ever get an 18 year old striker with finishing 10 up to 20. The balancing of the game will still kick in and prevent us from creating unrealistic superheroes. It's just about shaping, not about creating super-players. :)

Jops14
01-07-2010, 21:05
Ah great point. They would obviously still only have a set CA/PA so by boosting one stat you may reduce others. Well if that mechanic was workable it would be a brilliant feature.

DOHIOUFHFOIHOG
01-07-2010, 21:23
It's like you've taken the words from my mouth, I had this very idea myself. How many times have you heard about players being told to improve their fitness, get stronger on the ball, improve their crossing e.t.c

Obviously you shouldn't be able to give Park Ji-Sung 20 finishing but potentially raise it one or two points.

The only problem I can see with this is the human manager perfecting his/her players fitting them to tactics and the ai managers improving their defenders finishing and strikers tackling...

Brian Shanahan
01-07-2010, 21:36
One thing I would like to see with this (great idea btw) is that you could vary the intensity of the training in that one area, between 10 and 30% say. I would like to see it with positional and PPM training too. Maybe a payoff of greater likelihood of a big increase against a greater likelihood of player going off training and getting worse/hating your guts.

I never liked the drills in FM05 usually just ignored the training (no internet back then) and got on with playing matches.

jayahr
02-07-2010, 07:58
The only problem I can see with this is the human manager perfecting his/her players fitting them to tactics and the ai managers improving their defenders finishing and strikers tackling...

Yeah, that would require a certain AI standard :D


One thing I would like to see with this (great idea btw) is that you could vary the intensity of the training in that one area, between 10 and 30% say. I would like to see it with positional and PPM training too. Maybe a payoff of greater likelihood of a big increase against a greater likelihood of player going off training and getting worse/hating your guts.


That would indeed be great, though I'd be happy with less here already.

drmanley
02-07-2010, 09:18
The only issue I have, and have always had, with the idea of training just one attribute is that it's not very realistic. There aren't many drills I can think of which would just improve one attribute without affecting any others.

DOHIOUFHFOIHOG
02-07-2010, 10:48
The only issue I have, and have always had, with the idea of training just one attribute is that it's not very realistic. There aren't many drills I can think of which would just improve one attribute without affecting any others.

Tom Huddlestone was asked to improve his natural fitness/stop going to mcdonalds.
Aaron Lennon/Theo walcott were asked to improve their crossing.
Modric was asked to improve his strength. All happened with varying degrees of success.

And the detrimental effect would obviously be like training ppms or new positions i.e. a 10 or 20% training reduction

drmanley
02-07-2010, 11:01
Tom Huddlestone was asked to improve his natural fitness/stop going to mcdonalds.
Aaron Lennon/Theo walcott were asked to improve their crossing.
Modric was asked to improve his strength. All happened with varying degrees of success.

And the detrimental effect would obviously be like training ppms or new positions i.e. a 10 or 20% training reduction

Sorry, I didn't mean a detrimental impact. I meant that if you take a defender who has good jumping but you want to improve his heading in real life you'd have to create a drill where he can only head the ball without jumping in case his jumping improved.

Downzie_Boi
02-07-2010, 11:18
Does seem like a good idea to me!! Let's see if it makes it to the FM 11 :)

DOHIOUFHFOIHOG
02-07-2010, 12:34
Sorry, I didn't mean a detrimental impact. I meant that if you take a defender who has good jumping but you want to improve his heading in real life you'd have to create a drill where he can only head the ball without jumping in case his jumping improved.

Ah I see your point, perhaps they could be grouped together, pace and acceleration, jumping and heading, corners and free kicks and so on

jayahr
02-07-2010, 12:51
Anyway, a lot of attributes can be practised on their own. Of course, there may be regimes which help improve more than one attribute but for instance acceleration and pace are indeed two different things for which different routines are employed.

Picking just one attribute is still more realistic than having to go for a group of 5 to 7 attributes as it is now. If on top of that certain attributes would have an additional side-effect when trained, then good.

Jops14
02-07-2010, 13:18
Yes i was thinking you could group certain attributes together and ask them to improve that gorup. Although its not hard to practise heading without jumping.

bigdunk
02-07-2010, 13:51
Personally, I think there are very few attributes that can be practiced entirely on their own. Even practicing free kicks would improve long shots or finishing. I do think the groupings could be narrowed down though (ideally separating technical, mental etc out into attacking and defensive versions of these as a minimum). I also think any system that goes back to CM4 style drills is never going to work because of the issue of matches being played on different days of the week (e.g. sometimes you just play saturday, sometimes sunday and wednesday, and so on - it means you'd effectively have to completely redesign your schedule every single week).

Something that I do believe really needs integrating somehow, is to use the Roles from the new tactics wizard. We already have a whole batch of sensible attribute groups that relate to positions, so it makes sense to train players using these. So you'd be able to train a player up as a target man, or a complete forward, or a poacher or whatever. It could either completely replace the current training system, or sit on top of it like the wizard does for tactics.

Jops14
02-07-2010, 17:24
No, striking free kicks is a completely different skill to finishing or long shots, they wouldnt experiance any benefit.

But i agree with your point about the possibility of training players for roles.

x42bn6
02-07-2010, 23:00
It's more one implies the other, but not the other way round.

Practicing free kicks will increase either long shots + finishing, OR crossing. Might improve technique somewhat.

However, practicing, say, crossing, will not increase free kicks.

ronaldo_rooney
02-07-2010, 23:16
Like the idea, hope SI are listening...or should that be watching ;)

hee163
05-07-2010, 09:03
I think it works for some attributes but not others. As has been mentioned, it might be too easy to give players 20 pace/20 finishing. or other deadly combos. However, some of the training categories certainly cover too many attributes in my opinion.

For me there are 3 options -

Split up the attributes into more categories

OR add role/drill based modifiers for 10-20% training cost as mentioned in the OP, And give a bonus to 2 or 3 attributes in combinations that wouldn't unbalance the game.

The different categories don't necessariliy have to have the same number of attibutes or training cost. Nor do the attributes have to carry the same weight within each set.

Here are some suggestions.

Sprints - Pace, Acceleration
Cone drills - Agility, Balance
Wide play - Crossing, dribbling, off the ball.
Slide tackling - Tackling, aggression.
Offside trap - Positioning, Concentration
Man-marking - Marking, Concentration,
Keep-ball - First touch, passing, Technique?
Pass selection drills - Decisions, creativity.
Aerial practice - Jumping, Heading.
Motivational classes - Work rate, Determination, bravery.
Situational drills - Anticipation, Decisions.

Special option C.

Give bonuses to training attributes related to ppms that a player already has, or is currently learning.

Example. a player has the "shoots from distance" ppm.
This gives a bias in favour of the long shots attribute gaining CA, at a very slight penalty to all other attributes.

"arrives late in opp area" or "like to beat the offside trap" - off the ball gains a little bias.
"marks opponents tightly" - marking

etc. etc.

This bias could have a stronger effect while the player is in the process of learning the ppm.
The overall effect on training gains should be zero or negligible as other attributes take a very small training effect penalty. Otherwise players with millions of ppms would end up being ridiculous.

jayahr
11-08-2010, 11:46
Hooray SI :cool:

Thank you for listening once again :thup:

dafuge
11-08-2010, 11:50
I'm really glad to see this included now as it is something I've been suggesting for the last couple of years.

PhroX
11-08-2010, 11:52
However, practicing, say, crossing, will not increase free kicks.

I would even disagree with this. If you're practising free kicks from wide areas, you are by nature crossing the ball. So, by becoming a better crosser, you'll improve your skills at those free kicks. OK, the abilities used aren't going to be exactly the same, but there'd definately be some overlap.

Pangaea
11-08-2010, 11:53
Same here. I'm quite ecstatic about it tbh. Really happy this has been included. Here's hoping it will work from the off :)

dafuge
11-08-2010, 11:55
I would even disagree with this. If you're practising free kicks from wide areas, you are by nature crossing the ball. So, by becoming a better crosser, you'll improve your skills at those free kicks. OK, the abilities used aren't going to be exactly the same, but there'd definately be some overlap.

I think free kicks would need to be split into direct/indirect (or shoot/cross) before this would really make sense.

PhroX
11-08-2010, 12:01
I think free kicks would need to be split into direct/indirect (or shoot/cross) before this would really make sense.

Yeah, I've always felt that it's a little odd that shooting and crossing from a FK use the same attribute*. While it's true that many players can do both, there's a fair few that can't.

Actually, training in either FKs or crossing or whatever would probably also increase things like your technique too... :p


* And yes, I know the FK attribute not the only one that affects FKs in game.