Is it time to have a new International Proficiency attribute?

Watching Yohann Gourcuff flop miserably in the opening game of France's World Cup group against Uruguay, and knowing how good he is for Bordeaux (and how highly rated he is in FM), it got me thinking - would it be worthwhile having an attribute for performance levels in international games, rather than a simple "important matches" attribute that covers both club and national levels?

The reason I say is because there have been many players who were great at club level, including big games at club level, but never managed to hit it off for their country (either big or small games). Real Madrid's Raul would be a prime example of this - one of the best club-level strikers ever, one of the highest scoring CL strikers ever, yet did absolutely nothing for Spain. Don't think he even scored a single World Cup goal for them, though I might be wrong.

Regarding further examples, I'd also say that Totti, Roma's supremely gifted captain who has ripped Serie A teams apart for over a decade, has also struggled to perform for Italy over the years, even though he was part of a World Cup winning side (more of a quiet spectator than a key influence). Eric Cantona was abysmal for France, and Thierry Henry was good for Les Blues but never the player he was for Arsenal. Right now, Diego Milito is someone who has been widely written about after a sensational season for Inter, and it has been also widely acknowledged that he has never looked good for Argentina.

If we look at the other side of the coin, are there players who are better for their country than they are at club level? I think the answer is unanimously "yes", possibly even a good number of them. For example, take Emile Heskey. Very good target man for England, very average at club level as he's not quite as useful against English teams. Or Juan Veron, who has always played better for Argentina than he has for his club teams (even Lazio/Inter/etc). Similarly, there are many players who perform just as well for their country as they do for their clubs - Rooney, Villa, Xavi, etc etc.

Now if we were to look at FM, is there anything in the engine that would reflect this variation in ability to transfer club form to international games? Maybe e.g. Raul's lack of blistering pace could be an issue at international level in real life, but when at his peak that was never a problem in FM/CM. Maybe the attribute "Adaptability" could refer to the ability to adapt to different teams, including international ones - however I don't think that applies as we know it's more to do with new club teams and new countries that they move to. So from the looks of it, currently there isn't anything in the engine that would result in a disparity of form between club and country levels.

So, what would the use of this attribute be? It's clear that if someone isn't great at international level but is great at club level, then their valuation isn't affected (e.g. Raul, Henry, Cantona, etc etc), nor is their fame affected either, so one might ask what the point of this attribute would be. I think the answer to that is obvious - maybe it wouldn't affect club level games, but it would certainly add alot more variety to players who manage international teams. Not only do you have some players who are immense at club level with great stats but who fail to perform for your national side, but you also have others who might look a bit average, but are actually excellent for international football. So to be a successful international manager, just like real life international managers, you often have to pick the best team including players who adapt better to international football, rather than just picking the best eleven players for each position based on club level stats.

some of your examples are way off the mark IMO but you're right, there needs to be an attribute like this.

podolski is a prime example of being good for country but poor for club

It's already ingame .....

I'd argue that Heskey and Veron are poor choices for examples looking at recent international performances (Podolski might be a good one maybe?), but then most would say that the "Important Matches" attribute should cover it already.

What I personally think might work is a "preferred formation" thing in addition to the position page for each player. For example, Berbatov can play as a Striker, yes, but not as a LONE striker. So the little dot at the top of the pitch is bright green for him but only if he's alongside one or two more. Might also be a way to explain and perhaps replicate how Gerrard and Lampard do perform well in club matches as central midfielders but rarely do for England is sort of the same role.

Might be explained better, though, hmm. Brain isn't working right now.

It's already ingame .....

Where? Great if it is...

Raul is Spains all time top scorer with 44 goals in 102 games. But your right in the sense that he never shined at a big international tournament for one reason or another.

I'd argue that Heskey and Veron are poor choices for examples looking at recent international performances (Podolski might be a good one maybe?), but then most would say that the "Important Matches" attribute should cover it already.

Veron is old now and the example wasn't meant to be current, but in his prime he was great for Argentina, but never thought he was all that good at club level (Lazio/Inter, and of course he flopped in England).

I think your point about systems is a worthy one. Often it's just the system that is the difference. For example, Veron was alot better for Argentina because of their formation, style of play, and the way he just sat in midfield spraying passes with everything going through him. But at club level, he was never really given the same role, Lazio often played him further up from what I recall, and he was only OK at Inter.

At the same time though, there are players who are just more suited to international football than others. Raul was the best example, just did nothing for Spain even if the formation was identical to the one Madrid often used.

Judging by the responses so far though, I guess it'll be too hard an attribute to consider given how much more subjective it is than other attributes (even ones like "important matches"). Especially with international friendlies clouding performances, as they're meaningless.

Would prefer to just delete the thread.

David Healy and Milan Baros are two more strikers who score at international level, but haven't been able to cut it week to week for a top club.

Kinda off topic here but how old do you have to be to play for England? I have a good 14 year old who I want in my team but it says he's ineligible for the next match.

Probably the "Important Matches" and "Pressure" attributes cover that ground to a good extent.

It doesn't get much more important than World Cup, especially its later stages, so a player who struggle to perform in such occasions and/or who can't handle the pressure will play like crap anyway.

Kinda off topic here but how old do you have to be to play for England? I have a good 14 year old who I want in my team but it says he's ineligible for the next match.

Pretty sure they can't play a competitive match such as qualification or WC games till they are 16 but can play in friendlies before hand

Yeah I believe the 'Important Matches' stat already covers it

Probably the "Important Matches" and "Pressure" attributes cover that ground to a good extent.

Agreed. I'd think that adaptability should perhaps play some sort of part also. Joining up with a national team is joining up with a new squad - some players don't adapt well to playing with unfamiliar players or an unfamiliar set-up.

Often players who don't perform well on the international stage are just not comfortable with making compromises in their preferred style, which you really have to if you want to fit into a new set-up.

Part of the reason Spain are so awesome is because they almost all play for the same club, so they don't have to change at all to accomodate each other. Busquets, Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Puyol, just do exactly what they do week in, week out for Barca. And Villa and Silva are two very flexible and adaptive players who's style complements the Barca style v. well (hence Villa is imminently a Barca player).

What I personally think might work is a "preferred formation" thing in addition to the position page for each player. For example, Berbatov can play as a Striker, yes, but not as a LONE striker. So the little dot at the top of the pitch is bright green for him but only if he's alongside one or two more. Might also be a way to explain and perhaps replicate how Gerrard and Lampard do perform well in club matches as central midfielders but rarely do for England is sort of the same role.

Might be explained better, though, hmm. Brain isn't working right now.

I think that's more about players having preferred "roles." When your the best attacking CM in your team, you never have to be the guy who stays back to cover for his partner.

If Gerrard is standing next to Lucas and a counter-attack opportunity arises, he won't spend a split-second wondering whether to stay back and let Lucas forward. When Lampard and Gerrard both think like this at the same time, it leaves big gaps in midfield, and congestion further up the pitch, where they crowd each other. In other words, they both are trying to play CM (attack) [FWR = often, with v.high attacking mentality] when they've really been set as box-to-box midfielders.

Berbatov would, it seems, rather play ST (trequartista) than ST (target man). He's alright as a lone striker if he has runners from midfield, because then he can still play trequartista - threading through-balls for those running past him - but usually when up front alone, he loses "roam from position", and "TTB often" and maybe a little creative freedom, and then he plays craply.

I think FM is getting towards this, with the little feedback notes ("isn't comfortable closing down this often", "isn't comfortable being asked to play such short passes" etc.), and with the PPMs (Gerrard should (/does?) have "gets forward whenever possible", inhibiting your ability to trust him in a 4-4-2) but it'd be cool to have a player come out and complain not that you're playing him out of position (that feature is already in the game) but that you're not letting him express himself properly. High flair AMs with low work-rate (and professionalism) should not be happy to play defensive winger too often.

If they synchronise the player descriptions ("flamboyant midfielder", "strong centre-back" etc.) a little better with the player roles, it could be possible.

Perhaps the versatility stat would then dictate how willing and able they are to play roles outside their comfort zone.

Pretty sure they can't play a competitive match such as qualification or WC games till they are 16 but can play in friendlies before hand

Cheers

Yeah I believe the 'Important Matches' stat already covers it

I think so too....but it may not be covered by just one attribute. It's likely a combination of a couple of them.

was thinking about this before and think it would be good, could keep it simple like a rating from 1-3

1 = underperforms generally

2 = normal

3 = raises game

Stopped reading in the 2nd paragraph when you said Raul has done nothing for Spain. 44 goals in 102 games is a lot more than nothing. Pick some good examples if you're going to try and make a point.

Stopped reading in the 2nd paragraph when you said Raul has done nothing for Spain. 44 goals in 102 games is a lot more than nothing. Pick some good examples if you're going to try and make a point.

Oh really. Wow. I didn't know that. After all, his international record is a mystery - it's HIDDEN from all but yourself and a few privileged others. I mean, having followed football fanatically for over 20 years, including having seen Raul live, I really didn't have a clue that Raul had in fact scored GOALS for Spain. Woah. This is a revelation to me. How can this be? I though he had played 200 games and scored 0 goals. My world is rocked by your heaven-sent information.

Sarcasm aside, I'll respond to your point with a bit of detail so that maybe in future you'll think before you post "responses" like this. FYI, it's easy to score a good number of goals in meaningless international friendlies and qualifying games due to the general weakness of the opposition encountered (don't believe me? Google "seeding" and try to understand how it applies to qualifying campaigns, or "Ali Daei" if you want a counter example of someone crap scoring tons of goals at internatinoal level). The implication that I very obviously made from the start of the thread in saying that Raul has "done nothing for Spain" is that Raul failed to do anything significant for Spain in the finals tournaments (hence the World Cup comment referencing Gourcuff at the very start of the post), and grossly underperformed on a frequent basis in these games, which is pretty much a universally accepted view. I think his record stands at 6 goals in all finals competitions - pretty mediocre over his entire career, especially since they were all against weak teams (Tunisia, South Africa, Slovenia and Nigeria). Hardly representative of his form for Madrid where he has frequently scored against the best teams in the best competitions. Surely, even with your enlightened knowledge of football, you get the point made and will agree with it? And furthermore, assuming you've been playing FM for any length of time, surely you've noticed how well he's performed for Spain in major tournaments in CM/FM down the years - a premise that underlied the entire post throughout?

If you wish to argue against that, then by my guest, this is the internet after all and you can believe what you want. I'll just sit on my end of the PC knowing comfortably that it's a universal view held by football fans that Raul flopped for Spain in the major tournaments, including professional pundits, commentators and football managers (e.g. Martin O'Neill) who have openly stated that Raul has failed to perform for Spain when it's mattered.

So yeah, carry on "stopping reading" and telling others to "pick good examples" if that's what makes you happy. Me, I'd prefer it if people actually thought before posting attempts at aggressively dismissive one-line posts that are ill thought out and also includes advice to others on how to form arguements, but meh, we don't always get what we want.

Oh, and you're the same edgar555 who posted in another thread I started, where you were saying SI would go bust if they adopted a DLC model right? Then asked me for proof of SI's ability to financially survive with a DLC model when you were unable to do the same despite being the one making statements of "SI would go BUST if they did DLC" - a fine LOL moment indeed - then went off track into "zomg this is all personal attacks" in an attempt to avoid avoid acknowledging your mistake? Yeah, that'd be you. Sort of explains your aggressive response here. Since you're happy to give advice, I'll give you some in return - you need to think things through a bit before trying to attack other posts as (to me at least) you come across as a bit of a novice on these forums. And stop making overly bold statements too, if you thought Raul was a bad example, then just say so, others have posted that they disagreed with some of the examples given but noone did it in a flagrant manner like you did, where you attempt to rubbish an entire post because you disagreed with one example. You see, if you combine the two, you end up doing what you've done - jumping off the wrong end AND coming across a tad moronic.

I think it's more to do with formations and the surrounding environment. Ingame, a club player may gel really well with his team mates and a formation suited to his abilities, but in International games it is a different scenario. It is your choice, as international manager, to see if that star player fits into your system or not. So maybe Gourcuff would set the world alight if he was in the same role as at club level (star player, central to Bordeaux's success). So a specific attribute for this might not be the way, as a few attributes such as the already mentioned 'important matches' seem to make it work ok.

It's something that FM will struggle to replicate tbh. It has always been the same really, if you take the example of England, on paper most of the players are very good and so stats-wise on FM they are all very good. Put the best ones into a team with a decent tactic and it's generally always been pretty easy to get far in tournaments or win them when in real life we haven't come close for 40 years. France are in a similar position as they always seem to do well in FM tournaments due to all the individuals being good players and having good stats but it doesn't always work like that in real life - but how can this accurately be replicated? I'm not sure it can.

I think international management could do with an overhaul generally. Replacing the "big match" secret Attribute of Death with one specifically for international games would be a good idea IMO.

Some players obviously see internationals as a bit of a chore while others are clearly inspired by a national anthem and a flag.

from me.

I think this is a great idea.

Lukas Podolski and Miro Klose are playing very well for the national team but have disappointed at their respective clubs recently, for example.