Be FAIR - Time for Sports Interactive to buck the trend stop ripping customers off.

With the advent of DLC, we're starting to see more companies release half-completed games with additional content released at later dates which customers have to pay for in order to get the full experience. The "new content" differs from game to game, it usually includes new maps/campaigns/stories, but also new weapons/equipment/abilities, game modes, additional characters, additional multiplayer features, etc etc.

Now, don't get me wrong - I'm not here to moan about Sports Interactive rushing for the Christmas deadline every year and releasing a bug-plagued/flawed version of whatever new FM is released so that people can "get paid" and the top people can "get paid BIG", prior of course to patching it a few months later. Then dumping it officially when it comes to March the year after release.

What I am suggesting is that the changes between iterations of FM, e.g. from FM 2009 to FM 2010, is exactly what should be described as being DLC. You have "new" content such as a few minor additional features (camera improvements, crowds, match engine, media interaction, teamtalks, etc), some game enhancements/efficiencies, with the bulk of the new "content" being an updated official database. However, the core game is still the same as the previous iteration. Look beyond the sales marketing where minor things are made out to be major changes, and it's just an upgrade, nothing more, as opposed to being a whole new game itself.

So in the interest of fairness to the customer, shouldn't Sports Interactive just release FM 2011 as DLC for those who already own 2010? Instead of charging £25 retail for an upgraded version of FM 2010, charge us £7 for upgrading FM 2010 to 2011, and again charge a similar amount for the upgraded content for 2012, so on and so forth. Only charge us the full retail bang whenever we get a genuine new game with new code written from the ground up implementing new technologies. That way they're merely upgrading a good game every year (in between the iterations) instead of every year releasing a bugged game at full price (that is still an upgrade of the previous game), and furthermore gives them more time to release a proper, fully functionally, minimal bug-ridden full priced retail iteration when it comes to time to releasing one.

You might say "well then, noonce is forcing you to buy FM 11", which is true, but then by dropping FM 10 when it's still far from perfect, adding additional features that should be in FM 10 in the first place, and fixing some of the things that are wrong with FM 10 but in FM 11 only, I'm being forced to either buy FM 11 or just bin FM 10. And that's a shame, because FM 10 is alright, it just needs some upgrading and further enhancements.

So I know SI will never do this because of the amount of money they make from their customers every year doing things this way, and appreciate this post is pointless. But if someone from SI reads it then at least they'll know that we're not ALL happy sheeps delighted at being ripped off like this on a yearly basis, and they'll know that there is a different, more honest way of making money from FM.

Way more changes are made each year than you give them credit for. Bye...

These people have families to feed and regardless of that, they do a brilliant job making a great simulation game every year.

I think you're being ridiculously unfair. I mean, £25?! Is that really so much given the likes of console games are £40-50.

fm is great value foe money, take a ps3 game, you pay 40 quid complete it then add it to the other dust collectors or trade it in for a quarter of what you paid for it

where as fm has that many different things you can do, continue global domination with barca, spend the arab millions with city or turn a small scandinavian team into a european force

and its not like you have to pay for the updates either, i think people look too much into it, its one of the greatest games ever, but it is only a game and if it annoys you that much because "you cant win" try fifa instead and enjoy your 10-0 wins

i have to agree with some of the points he makes. simple fact is games are getting released half finished and it then becomes a farce when us THE CUSTOMER has to then report back the ''bugs'' and then SI do something about it. surely theres some computer genius hired by SI who is on a pretty good wages to correct these problems before release. i mean its not fair that only really after january every year we are finally getting a more complete game by the time the add ons are released through the patches, to then dump it about september time once the new game is released............. to which we have to put ourselves through the pain of bugs and errors all over again and prob have to wait until January once again to enjoy the game u bought 4 months previous.

im a gas engineer and if i sold a half complete boiler i wouldnt get paid, so why should it be too much to ask for fairness?

For me, £25 a year is an absolute bargin for the amount of time i spend playing it..I just cant see how you can come to the conclusion that SI are trying to rip you off..

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, or even the majority on here. After all, as with any forum, most on here will be fanboys of the game, so criticising it will immediately lead to defensive posts that attempt to pour water over someone else's opinion.

Unknown Hacker for example. "Way more changes", I've already covered those by saying that in my opinion, they're merely upgrades to an existing engine that was dumped by SI because they wanted to re-release it as a new game entirely 6 months later.

JonnyCurrie - yes, people have families to feed, but that's irrelevant if they're ripping customers off. This is why you have trading standards and independent bodies set up to reduce monopolies and ensure customers get a fair deal. Hopefully, it's only a matter of time before we have a watchdog for games publishers/developers, as too many companies are getting people addicted, dumping a game, then releasing a "new" version that requires their hard earned money. The "I need to feed myself/family" justification could be used for just about anything. As for console games, I've already said that other companies do the same thing, and I don't want to get too off topic and go into console game prices (which are extortionate anyway if they're close to recommended retail prices). If you want an example, many FIFA customers aren't happy with FIFA 2010 WC being £35 when it's just effectively DLC for FIFA 10. Needless to say, you'll find similar complaints on EA forums (and similarly, a whole bunch of people prepared to defend EA's pricing).

.

the game is complete and works, if your go looking for bugs you will find bugs, should think yourself lucky that weve got a dedicated froum to bring the bugs to their attention and they try and fix them with the new transfers etc.

its the only game that i play that does this

For me, £25 a year is an absolute bargin for the amount of time i spend playing it..I just cant see how you can come to the conclusion that SI are trying to rip you off..

they rip us off by having us report back majority of the problems to them, which they should be doin before release. last time i checked SI havnt put any money into my bank account for testing their game throroughly for them.

So what your saying is you want new new weapons/abilities?

All kidding aside.....I think Im gonna have to agree with Unknown Hacker on this one mate.

Plus if you think about it, the amount of editing that we are allowed to do sorta makes them DLCs....

Ive looked in the Editors Hideaway and people are making new scenarios/alternate league systems all the time....you can call those the equivalent of a DLC?

Plus there are so many ideas that they can come up that SI may never really think of.

I honestly don't know where to begin with this one?

So much wrong with the OP its not even funny.

I guess my main point is going to be that if they took that route, you know what we'd be looking at? SI bust in a few months and no FM at all. Yeah, we'd all be stuck with CM and that would not be cool.

The differences don't even have to be massive, its often the subtle changes that you appreciate the most.

I tried playing 09 recently and you know what, I just couldn't get into it. Tactics felt weird the old way and loads of other little things annoyed me.

No video game, console or PC is perfect, everything will have glitches, heck even console manufacturers release patches on day one now!!

Hats off to SI though, they keep the community informed and they do listen. They always said that 10 was going to be a 3 patch strategy and they stuck to their word. Now I don't know what issue you have with 10.3 but there are no game breaking bugs and the few that are in there are very minor and most people would never notice them if they didn't read these and other forums.

As unknown hacker said there are way more changes than you give them credit for. Unless you are a developer yourself I'd say you had no clue whatsoever is going on 'under the hood'.

FM10 out of the box was actually extremely playable it was only with 10.1 and 10.2 that a few problems cropped up although judging by the reaction on these boards you'd have thought the SI team had been round our houses shagging our birds.

SI are and always have been one of the most open and progressive developers out there and with the help of this community they strive to bring out the best management game on the block, which they have done, every year since they started. Long may they continue to do so.

If we all thought we were being ripped off or that the bugs are deliberate do you think we'd all still be here or paying out our £25-£30 every year? Of course not and you know what SI would be bust if that was the case.

Too many 'bugs' are not even bugs and too many get blown way out of proportion.

See sense tmonkey, your way leads to hell (CM and Eidos)

For me, £25 a year is an absolute bargin for the amount of time i spend playing it..I just cant see how you can come to the conclusion that SI are trying to rip you off..

It's easy. FM 2010 was patched last in what, March 2010? Since then, it's been dumped. When the new season starts in real life, noone will want to play with the 2010 database, and even if they upgrade the database with a custom one (or spend days editing it), they'll have to replay season 09/10 just to get to 10/11. And even if they use editors to fix an entire season so that they can start afresh in 2010/11, it's still an undeveloped game that needs enhancement. Enhancement that it wont ever get because SI have dumped FM 2010 altogether.

FM 11 will then be released in November. It'll effectively be a bug riddled version of an upgraded FM 2010. Because it has new features, this will make you want to play FM10 even less, because the new version has features the old one should have had.

If you think it an absolute bargain to pay £25 for a slightly altered version of what you already have, then that's fair enough. Surely you can empathise a bit and see why others might not feel that way? £25 is alot of money to some people to spend on games, especially if it's the same game effectively rebranded.

In all honesty, you can keep playing the game for more than a year - people make updates with the squads up to date every summer, it's just whether you think it's worth £25-30 to have the calendar date right. Personally, I find there's so much to do on FM that i usually buy one edition every 2 years. Even if i did buy it every year £25-30 for an entire year of gaming is more than worth compared to anything else i play

they rip us off by having us report back majority of the problems to them, which they should be doin before release. last time i checked SI havnt put any money into my bank account for testing their game throroughly for them.

But eventually they do fix the majority of the problems for FREE, its not like you have to pay for the patches..Can you honestly tell me the name of one single game, on ANY platform that didnt have bugs when first released?? Its only £25, thats not even a round down the local with your mates which only lasts 10 minutes..

The arguments being put forth here to back up the 'we're being ripped off' agenda are incredible. Hilarious even.

Clearly these people have no idea how hard it is to make a piece of good software.

the fm game is dead //...

only the fan boys will buy ..

most of us will not wastes our money on that rubbish anymore ..

fm2010 was the worse selling game they have made ..

and from what i hear if fm11 doesnt pick up then thats the end off the rd for SI which i very much hope is the case

they will all go back running to where they came CM

bye bye FM

The arguments being put forth here to back up the 'we're being ripped off' agenda are incredible. Hilarious even.

Clearly these people have no idea how hard it is to make a piece of good software.

Absolutely, good post

But eventually they do fix the majority of the problems for FREE, its not like you have to pay for the patches..Can you honestly tell me the name of one single game, on ANY platform that didnt have bugs when first released?? Its only £25, thats not even a round down the local with your mates which only lasts 10 minutes..

Exactly, you want buggy and not caring? Try an EA game or Dead Rising on the 360.

Off topic: You must have a fair number of mates in your rounds?

It's easy. FM 2010 was patched last in what, March 2010? Since then, it's been dumped. When the new season starts in real life, noone will want to play with the 2010 database, and even if they upgrade the database with a custom one (or spend days editing it), they'll have to replay season 09/10 just to get to 10/11. And even if they use editors to fix an entire season so that they can start afresh in 2010/11, it's still an undeveloped game that needs enhancement. Enhancement that it wont ever get because SI have dumped FM 2010 altogether.

FM 11 will then be released in November. It'll effectively be a bug riddled version of an upgraded FM 2010. Because it has new features, this will make you want to play FM10 even less, because the new version has features the old one should have had.

If you think it an absolute bargain to pay £25 for a slightly altered version of what you already have, then that's fair enough. Surely you can empathise a bit and see why others might not feel that way? £25 is alot of money to some people to spend on games, especially if it's the same game effectively rebranded.

No empathy here. Its your opinion, as this thread will show you, you are in the minority. Phone watchdog, see if they agree. Or even care.

Don't pay if you don't want to. Take care.

Oh and bandying about the word 'fanboy' is not going to make you any friends.

i have to agree with some of the points he makes. simple fact is games are getting released half finished and it then becomes a farce when us THE CUSTOMER has to then report back the ''bugs'' and then SI do something about it. surely theres some computer genius hired by SI who is on a pretty good wages to correct these problems before release. i mean its not fair that only really after january every year we are finally getting a more complete game by the time the add ons are released through the patches, to then dump it about september time once the new game is released............. to which we have to put ourselves through the pain of bugs and errors all over again and prob have to wait until January once again to enjoy the game u bought 4 months previous.

im a gas engineer and if i sold a half complete boiler i wouldnt get paid, so why should it be too much to ask for fairness?

So I take from your aversion to bugs that you're a player who never buys or plays computer games.

As far as bugs reported to SI (as I can see anyway), about 25% are "I make 20 chances every game, but I can't score", fixable through either better tactics or strikers.

Another 25% are "I get loads of injuries, it's the worst bug error" which is fixed through better use of players, tactics and training or the person complaining realising how many injuries are in the game of football.

The 3rd quarter are crash-dumps, genuine problems either with the game software or the hardware used to play the game. These bugs are hard to replicate and are often hard to pinpoint.

The last 25% are bugs that relate directly to the game. The software is complex and there are a huge number of variables so bugs are to be expected (as with any piece of modern software).

There are games out there which are far more buggy than FM. Off the top of my head I can think of Fallout 3 (7 patches still thousands of bugs), Civ IV (god knows how many patches, and still some essential game mechanics bugged to hell) and, a bit older Diablo 2 (again don't know how many patches, 13 and counting I think). Even Master of Orion (the granddaddy of 4X games) took three patches to fix and that game fits on one floppy with space to spare.

I honestly don't know where to begin with this one?

So much wrong with the OP its not even funny.

I guess my main point is going to be that if they took that route, you know what we'd be looking at? SI bust in a few months and no FM at all. Yeah, we'd all be stuck with CM and that would not be cool.

The differences don't even have to be massive, its often the subtle changes that you appreciate the most.

I tried playing 09 recently and you know what, I just couldn't get into it. Tactics felt weird the old way and loads of other little things annoyed me.

No video game, console or PC is perfect, everything will have glitches, heck even console manufacturers release patches on day one now!!

Hats off to SI though, they keep the community informed and they do listen. They always said that 10 was going to be a 3 patch strategy and they stuck to their word. Now I don't know what issue you have with 10.3 but there are no game breaking bugs and the few that are in there are very minor and most people would never notice them if they didn't read these and other forums.

As unknown hacker said there are way more changes than you give them credit for. Unless you are a developer yourself I'd say you had no clue whatsoever is going on 'under the hood'.

FM10 out of the box was actually extremely playable it was only with 10.1 and 10.2 that a few problems cropped up although judging by the reaction on these boards you'd have thought the SI team had been round our houses shagging our birds.

SI are and always have been one of the most open and progressive developers out there and with the help of this community they strive to bring out the best management game on the block, which they have done, every year since they started. Long may they continue to do so.

If we all thought we were being ripped off or that the bugs are deliberate do you think we'd all still be here or paying out our £25-£30 every year? Of course not and you know what SI would be bust if that was the case.

Too many 'bugs' are not even bugs and too many get blown way out of proportion.

See sense tmonkey, your way leads to hell (CM and Eidos)

No, they wouldn't "go bust". That's merely an age old tactic of attempting to scare people into avoiding changes. The point of DLC is that they make money from it by upgrading an existing game.

Your entire arguement only furthers my point. If FM 2010 10.3 is just about good enough to not be a horrible experience over a 25 year game period, and I paid £25 for it 2 months ago, how annoying is it to know that there'll be no more updates, no more improvements, no more developer support for it, nothing at all in fact? If they're going to make radical changes for FM 2011, then fine, make those, and release it as a new game. But why drop FM 2010 altogether? Why not continue developing it and fixing it's problems (and believe me, it has many - e.g. 21 seasons in and the standard of players is shocking, especially the hidden attributes)? Other games continue supporting their games for years after release.

It's quite obvious why SI won't. They want us to switch to the next game, hence why they support a full retail priced PC game for all of 6 months before dumping it and re-releasing a patched up version of the same game.

The arguments being put forth here to back up the 'we're being ripped off' agenda are incredible. Hilarious even.

Clearly these people have no idea how hard it is to make a piece of good software.

but clearly it would be easier to make an upgrade of the match engine etc of 10.3 for fm 11, as 10.3 is ok to play now. but it wont happen.......

the fm game is dead //...

only the fan boys will buy ..

most of us will not wastes our money on that rubbish anymore ..

fm2010 was the worse selling game they have made ..

and from what i hear if fm11 doesnt pick up then thats the end off the rd for SI which i very much hope is the case

they will all go back running to where they came CM

bye bye FM

Fair enough you dont like FM2010 - but to say you hope SI and FM2011 to effectively fail! What a nice person you are. I have loved FM2010 - immense!!! More of the same please!!!

tmonkey i agree 100% with ya lad....

i used to think the same thing about FIFA's for my Play Station, there practically the same thing every year bar a few tweaks here and there, I stopped buying it after 2005...

No empathy here. Its your opinion, as this thread will show you, you are in the majority. Phone watchdog, see if they agree. Or even care.

Don't pay if you don't want to. Take care.

Oh and bandying about the word 'fanboy' is not going to make you any friends.

Well, duh, of course it's my opinion. I've said as much. And I've said that I'm in the minority. As for "phoning watchdog", there's no need to be silly just to try to look cool on a forum.

"Take care". Nice. Being an arrogant ***** on an internet forum worthwhile is it?

If you don't like my opinion then dont respond to it. Take care.

So I take from your aversion to bugs that you're a player who never buys or plays computer games.

As far as bugs reported to SI (as I can see anyway), about 25% are "I make 20 chances every game, but I can't score", fixable through either better tactics or strikers.

Another 25% are "I get loads of injuries, it's the worst bug error" which is fixed through better use of players, tactics and training or the person complaining realising how many injuries are in the game of football.

The 3rd quarter are crash-dumps, genuine problems either with the game software or the hardware used to play the game. These bugs are hard to replicate and are often hard to pinpoint.

The last 25% are bugs that relate directly to the game. The software is complex and there are a huge number of variables so bugs are to be expected (as with any piece of modern software).

There are games out there which are far more buggy than FM. Off the top of my head I can think of Fallout 3 (7 patches still thousands of bugs), Civ IV (god knows how many patches, and still some essential game mechanics bugged to hell) and, a bit older Diablo 2 (again don't know how many patches, 13 and counting I think). Even Master of Orion (the granddaddy of 4X games) took three patches to fix and that game fits on one floppy with space to spare.

no i never play or buy computers/games.. i just know all about the problems by goin to play it in my best friends house, who stays 40 miles from mine and i have to walk there, and then theres the 3 day bus trip i had to make today to get to my nearest internet cafe so i could write on this forum.

Have not read all the posts but what a load of rubbish!!! SI bend over backwards for the customer to make their FM experience the best possible.

but clearly it would be easier to make an upgrade of the match engine etc of 10.3 for fm 11, as 10.3 is ok to play now. but it wont happen.......

FM10 is not just FM09 with a tweak. It's completely different with tons more features.

Again I don't think you quite appreciate the complexity of what these people do every year.

No, they wouldn't "go bust". That's merely an age old tactic of attempting to scare people into avoiding changes. The point of DLC is that they make money from it by upgrading an existing game.

Your entire arguement only furthers my point. If FM 2010 10.3 is just about good enough to not be a horrible experience over a 25 year game period, and I paid £25 for it 2 months ago, how annoying is it to know that there'll be no more updates, no more improvements, no more developer support for it, nothing at all in fact? If they're going to make radical changes for FM 2011, then fine, make those, and release it as a new game. But why drop FM 2010 altogether? Why not continue developing it and fixing it's problems (and believe me, it has many - e.g. 21 seasons in and the standard of players is shocking, especially the hidden attributes)? Other games continue supporting their games for years after release.

It's quite obvious why SI won't. They want us to switch to the next game, hence why they support a full retail priced PC game for all of 6 months before dumping it and re-releasing a patched up version of the same game.

So you're their accountant are you? You KNOW they won't go bust do you?

How can you say they support it for only 6 months, they released 9.3.1 way after their normal timeframes to 'support' their fanbase.

I pay my money and play this game solidly for 12 months, how is not value for money?

How do you know the hidden attributes are rubbish? Why are you looking?

Who supports their games for years? Who?

I don't understand how they are supposed to make FM11 if they continue to work on this game?

And Sparks199 - if thats what you think, why are you still here? You dislike it that much, jog on mate!

no i never play or buy computers/games.. i just know all about the problems by goin to play it in my best friends house, who stays 40 miles from mine and i have to walk there, and then theres the 3 day bus trip i had to make today to get to my nearest internet cafe so i could write on this forum.

I've being waiting to use this

Erm no, because that isn't the point of upgrades. The point of patches/upgrades is to tweak small sections of the code that will hopefully result in a resolution for a small problem that has been reported by the masses.

FM10 is not just FM09 with a tweak. It's completely different with tons more features.

Again I don't think you quite appreciate the complexity of what these people do every year.

and it of my opinion that SI dont quite appreciate the customers who every bloody year put their hands in their pockets.

Erm no, because that isn't the point of upgrades. The point of pathes/upgrades is to tweak small sections of the code that will hopefully result in a resolution for a small problem that has been reported by the masses.

FM10 is not just FM09 with a tweak. It's completely different with tons more features.

Again I don't think you quite appreciate the complexity of what these people do every year.

Poppycock. That's just one type of upgrade you're referring to. You can "upgrade" anything you want, it's entirely the developer's preogative. Natural Selection for example, from 1.0 to 3.2, went through major changes over a period of 3-4 years, from entirely new modes of play to complete changes in everything from graphics, weapons to abilities.

Look at developer support for Team Fortress 2 for example, it's amazing the amount of major changes they've made in the 3 years since release. They didn't merely "tweak small sections of the code" in their upgrade if you know what the game is what how it's changed since initial release.

So yeah, not unexpected of someone supporting SI to start forming arguements in their favour out of thin air.

I've being waiting to use this

thats amazing, u really are a computing genius. hope u werent waiting too long to use it.

Well, duh, of course it's my opinion. I've said as much. And I've said that I'm in the minority. As for "phoning watchdog", there's no need to be silly just to try to look cool on a forum.

"Take care". Nice. Being an arrogant ***** on an internet forum worthwhile is it?

If you don't like my opinion then dont respond to it. Take care.

If you don't want a response, don't post on a forum. Just because I don't agree with you does not make my point less worthy. If the mods have an issue with it they'll deal with me. Much as they will for you with your **** swearing at me on an internet forum, worthwhile is it?

As for the 'take care' you read it as arrogant, others won't have. Thats life.

My watchdog comment was semi serious, if you really think they are ripping you off then complain to the relevant people, trading standards, watchdog, the Daily Mail (you can tell them how SI force you to buy the game by killing your puppy, they'd love that) or write a nice letter to Sega/SI.

Oh no, you used take care at the end of your post What am I to do?

but clearly it would be easier to make an upgrade of the match engine etc of 10.3 for fm 11, as 10.3 is ok to play now. but it wont happen.......

Poppycock. That's just one type of upgrade you're referring to. You can "upgrade" anything you want, it's entirely the developer's preogative. Natural Selection for example, from 1.0 to 3.2, went through major changes over a period of 3-4 years, from entirely new modes of play to complete changes in everything from graphics, weapons to abilities.

Look at developer support for Team Fortress 2 for example, it's amazing the amount of major changes they've made in the 3 years since release. They didn't merely "tweak small sections of the code" in their upgrade if you know what the game is what how it's changed since initial release.

So yeah, not unexpected of someone supporting SI to start forming arguements in their favour out of thin air.

Wow, Team Fortress. I bet that code looks similar to Football Manager.

Why are people buying the game if they think they are being 'ripped off'. If you feel like this then don't buy the game. Spending hours upon hours on a game that costs £30, sounds pretty good value for money to me.

What I am suggesting is that the changes between iterations of FM, e.g. from FM 2009 to FM 2010, is exactly what should be described as being DLC. You have "new" content such as a few minor additional features (camera improvements, crowds, match engine, media interaction, teamtalks, etc), some game enhancements/efficiencies, with the bulk of the new "content" being an updated official database. However, the core game is still the same as the previous iteration. Look beyond the sales marketing where minor things are made out to be major changes, and it's just an upgrade, nothing more, as opposed to being a whole new game itself.

Wait so instead of having a few main updates where most (Not everything is fixed) we should have to pick and choose what we want to download and then spend (In some computers case) hours downloading these 'DLC's' one by one?

Yeah i love to just waste my time i see nothing better to do with my time you know?

So you're their accountant are you? You KNOW they won't go bust do you?

How can you say they support it for only 6 months, they released 9.3.1 way after their normal timeframes to 'support' their fanbase.

I pay my money and play this game solidly for 12 months, how is not value for money?

How do you know the hidden attributes are rubbish? Why are you looking?

Who supports their games for years? Who?

I don't understand how they are supposed to make FM11 if they continue to work on this game?

And Sparks199 - if thats what you think, why are you still here? You dislike it that much, jog on mate!

They released FM 2010 in mid to late October 2009. They then patched it up to 10.3 at the end of Feb 2010. That's 6 months. That's the last of their updates. That's the end of their support for FM 2010, a game still retailing at around £15-20 in many places. Do you find this acceptable, irrespective of whether EA & Co do the same with FIFA or not?

You pay your money and play solidly for 12 months. Good for you. I'm not, as for the most part the game is bugged (10.3 came 6 months after release - so for 6 months we had a flawed game, and that's only a few months before the real world season is over). And I don't like the same game being released with minor enhancements. Hence why I'm complaining.

No, I'm not their accountant. Given that you aren't either, and that YOURE the one who said they'd go bust if they used chargable DLC instead of full priced retail games, surely its your onus to explain what that's based on? Mine is the simple logic that if they took the DLC route, then they'd reduce their expenses based on whatever the budget for DLCs is in relation to expected revenues, whilst focusing additional resources on whenever a genuinely new FM was to be created.

I know the hidden attributes are rubbish because I use in game scouts. Why am I looking? Because I want to find good players and because I have vain hopes of the standard of players in year 20 being similar to the standard of player in year 1 (i.e. at the start of the game). Because SI couldn't care less about long-term games it seems based on the fact that it's still abysmal/sub standard compared to start-game stats, playing a long term FM game isn't very enjoyable for me personally. Others like it and adapt to whatever the game throws at them. To each their own.

Who supports games for years - many developers do. Valve with Team Fortress 2 being the best example. They've added massive changes for free - new maps, new modes, new weapons, so on and so forth. Others will constantly bring out improvements and bug fixes, even Infinity Ward do this. Granted, some like EA will dump their sports titles after the year is over, but then we're not talking about them - go to EA forums and you'll find a few similar complaints.

If you dont understand how they'll make FM11 whilst they continue to work on FM10, then you don't have much of an idea about business or how the gaming industry works. How do you think development studios who haven't released a big game in the past year manage to fund the project for a new game?

Difficult to know where to start, so much wrong

Bigshow first then:

i have to agree with some of the points he makes. simple fact is games are getting released half finished and it then becomes a farce when us THE CUSTOMER has to then report back the ''bugs'' and then SI do something about it. surely theres some computer genius hired by SI who is on a pretty good wages to correct these problems before release. i mean its not fair that only really after january every year we are finally getting a more complete game by the time the add ons are released through the patches, to then dump it about september time once the new game is released............. to which we have to put ourselves through the pain of bugs and errors all over again and prob have to wait until January once again to enjoy the game u bought 4 months previous.

All games have been more or less playable out of the box or with a patch on release day.

You seem to have little clue as to what goes into creating and testing a piece of software. Then you take FM which you could test for the next 100 years and you would still not find every single little bug.

im a gas engineer and if i sold a half complete boiler i wouldnt get paid, so why should it be too much to ask for fairness?

Software is rather different to a gas boiler and significantly more complicated.

I'll also point out you are an engineer and therefore don't build & test the boilers

they rip us off by having us report back majority of the problems to them, which they should be doin before release. last time i checked SI havnt put any money into my bank account for testing their game throroughly for them.

See above, I've learned over the years that as much as we would like bugfree software its simply not going to happen in the real world.

but clearly it would be easier to make an upgrade of the match engine etc of 10.3 for fm 11, as 10.3 is ok to play now. but it wont happen.......

As I understand it the match engine has been an ongoing project for several years now as they attempt to achieve perfection.

the fm game is dead //...

only the fan boys will buy ..

most of us will not wastes our money on that rubbish anymore ..

fm2010 was the worse selling game they have made ..

and from what i hear if fm11 doesnt pick up then thats the end off the rd for SI which i very much hope is the case

they will all go back running to where they came CM

bye bye FM

Last time I looked it was the top selling football management simulation on the market and amongst the top selling PC games during the year.

As others have said if you don't like it thats fine go and play something else but don't deny the rest of us the right to enjoy it.

Software is rather different to a gas boiler and significantly more complicated.

I'll also point out you are an engineer and therefore don't build & test the boilers

.

And how would u know its more complicated than boilers?.............

and shows how little u know about gas engineers coz if we dont test boilers then ur heads up your arse. ever heard of a gas service?? thats where the GAS ENGINEER, wait for it.......................... TESTS all operations of a boiler to make sure it works properly. SI take note and follow our example.

Tmonkey - I have work to do so only time to answer your last point. Those other dev companies work to a different business model that allows them to release a game every 2 or 3 years. Now who knows little about development?

Has it really reached the stage of comparing software developers/engineers to boiler-men?!

And how would u know its more complicated than boilers?.............

and shows how little u know about gas engineers coz if we dont test boilers then ur heads up your arse. ever heard of a gas service?? thats where the GAS ENGINEER, wait for it.......................... TESTS all operations of a boiler to make sure it works properly. SI take note and follow our example.

I really hope you never come to test my boiler

I was referring to the quality testing in the factory before the boiler is released for sale not the safety inspections you carry out which last five minutes.

Even when you do have a fault to fix, once found you simply replace a part you don't repair that part.

Don't get me wrong here I have a lot of respect for gas engineers, you do an important job that affect peoples lives but to compare working on a boiler with working on software code is just not in the same ballpark.

Last time I looked it was the top selling football management simulation on the market and amongst the top selling PC games during the year.

As others have said if you don't like it thats fine go and play something else but don't deny the rest of us the right to enjoy it.

I find posts like this funny.

How about you take a page out of your own book, and stop trying to shoot people down with their complaints about a game? You enjoy the game, so be it, go enjoy it. Stop trying to make out everything is rosy when the game isn't as enjoyable as it should be for some of us, and furthermore doesnt represent good value for money for those of us who buy it at certain times of the year (or dont have spare cash to throw at the same game every year).

And stop telling us to "dont buy it if you dont like it". This isnt a thread about my shopping experiences. Whether I buy the game or not is up to me. Complaining about the price, or the method of release, or anything else of that ilk is perfectly within my rights. It's no different to the fact that you've responded in this thread - if you don't agree with the original post, then you didn't have to respond. But you did respond - why? Because you feel that your views on the subject are relevant to the discussion.

So whether I buy it or not is irrelevant. If I dont post my views, or am discouraged by collective bullying from fanboys who go red in the face at the thought of anyone both liking and disliking the game (which you get on every games forum), then SI won't know that a small part of their customer base is unhappy. So in fact, it's you who is the one trying to spoil the game for others, not the other way around. You want to keep things the way you like it because it meets your expectation levels, at the cost to others who want or expect more.

Anyway, this is pretty common on this forum. I remember a thread about regens in the future being **** compared to start game players. For some reason, a bunch of posters on here decided to argue vehemently against what was pretty much a fact. And I never understood why. I guess some people just like the game and take objection to any criticism, irrespective of whether they actually understand what the criticism is or not.

imo i think SI have screwed themselves over with FM10

now we can edit the datbase in any way we want, and easily upload/download them, by the time the 2010/11 season starts (which will be waaaay before FM11 comes out) someone will have created an updated database and made it available for free.

anyone who has FM 10 doesnt need to buy Fm11 or 12 etc, unless they make MASSIVE changes to the football manager series.

For some yes, but for the majority of people, they will get the new FM.

I really hope you never come to test my boiler

I was referring to the quality testing in the factory before the boiler is released for sale not the safety inspections you carry out which last five minutes.

Even when you do have a fault to fix, once found you simply replace a part you don't repair that part.

Don't get me wrong here I have a lot of respect for gas engineers, you do an important job that affect peoples lives but to compare working on a boiler with working on software code is just not in the same ballpark.

exactly our job is more important for the simple fact u just made yourself... our job could affect peoples lives if not done properly, SI aint gonna kill anyone with software are they??

oh and btw if the guy who does ur service takes 5 mins either sack him or hes gonna affect ur life pretty soon.

they rip us off by having us report back majority of the problems to them, which they should be doin before release. last time i checked SI havnt put any money into my bank account for testing their game throroughly for them.

I'd feel ripped off if I found a bug or error or improvement that could be made, then was told there wasn't a way to report it or consider it for a future patch or version. I'd feel ripped off if I got version 1.0 and that was the end of it for a calendar year. I don't know of many things in life where I can have a near-instant conversation with the creator and builder of a product that I enjoy. They don't put money into my account for playing, but they give me 3 patches in six months, then a new & improved version six months after that. Rinse, repeat, for over a decade. If only other products in the real world worked that well...

I hope you understand that it is impossible for SI to find all the bugs in the game. They only have a finite number of testers who check for bugs and such. Everyone at SI doesn't work on the game 24/7. They have deadlines to meet before the game goes gold and they got lives too. It's impossible to make a completely bug-free game without any patches because someone's bound to find something wrong.

And at least their patches are on time. I hope you realize SI are a lot better than other gaming companies.

Tmonkey - I have work to do so only time to answer your last point. Those other dev companies work to a different business model that allows them to release a game every 2 or 3 years. Now who knows little about development?

LOL now you have "work to do" after you get shown up for being clueless and expecting me to produce figures when you're the one making bold statements like "zomg SI would go BUST".

What other dev companies? What business models? And what makes you think SI can't adapt to that?

But these are all pointless, because you're just talking out of your backside. The only question I need to ask you is, if SI adopted a puchase-DLC model, How much revenue would they generate? By how much would their costs reduce? And what makes you think they wouldn't be able to adapt?

Obviously you can't answer any of those questions because you dont have the sufficient information (and most likely accounting/business knowledge) to answer it. So again, clearly you're the one who hasn't got a clue about what you're arguing, which leads me to go back to my original point. Why are you arguing against me when you're simply making things up?

But I suppose you're too "busy" now to respond adequately.