Computer is more clinical

Doesnt matter about form, ability, match fitness, confidence, ability of defenders or goalkeeper, and tactics the AI is more clinical in taking chances, I have tested it, i gave my self perfect goal scorers in midfield and up front, max abilities, max morale and fitness, and the AI will still be more efficient taking chances, its about a 3:1 ratio, too many times poor stirkers with not great finishing, 12,13, 14 adn low morale will score with there first chance, yet my strikers with the complete opposite will miss open goals point blank headers and one v ones, also goalkeepers who come in to games with terrible form, 5s and 6s and very poor morale will suddenly get a 9 against you, I have pleyed this game for like 10 years in its various forms and always been succesful but the last two just dont get me hooked because what you set up your team to do never happens.

Doesnt matter about form, ability, match fitness, confidence, ability of defenders or goalkeeper, and tactics the AI is more clinical in taking chances, I have tested it, i gave my self perfect goal scorers in midfield and up front, max abilities, max morale and fitness, and the AI will still be more efficient taking chances, its about a 3:1 ratio, too many times poor stirkers with not great finishing, 12,13, 14 adn low morale will score with there first chance, yet my strikers with the complete opposite will miss open goals point blank headers and one v ones, also goalkeepers who come in to games with terrible form, 5s and 6s and very poor morale will suddenly get a 9 against you, I have pleyed this game for like 10 years in its various forms and always been succesful but the last two just dont get me hooked because what you set up your team to do never happens.

hear hear m8. i hear u! i feel ur pain!

Sorry to sound like a broken record, guys, but tactics forum. Plenty of people have success on this game. Tactics are more important than in any previous release, as are mental stats of players. Sorry again re the T-word.

And by "success" I inlcude clean sheets, plenty of goals scored, trophies, league wins. The lot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

Sorry to sound like a broken record, guys, but tactics forum. Plenty of people have success on this game. Tactics are more important than in any previous release, as are mental stats of players. Sorry again re the T-word. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- but its about time SI gave us better tools to work with.

It seems that no matter who you are playing that unless you get everything "just right" then the game will always bite you in the face.

Cruising at 3-0 up at HT against the bottom team, neglect to go a bit more defensive or counter their 424? 3-3 FT, with the warning goal coming within one or two minutes of the second half kickoff signalling that the opposing manager has picked the perfect option for his speech.

Of course this works vice versa too but it really gives you the feeling that your playing a game which can be cracked, especially as the "random" elements like slumps in form, effects of weather etc are telegraphed and easily worked around.

With real life managers earning £6m a year there is no doubting that tactical nous is important, but I do feel that the players you buy or use are becoming the least important factor in the match due to the way you can pull performances that are way above the ability of your players when you get everything "just so".

I can speak from experience as Ive just got my Rynninge IK through the group stage of the Champions League with a team that was predicted to come bottom of Swedish Premier. A team that although packed full of promising youngsters did not have (on the surface) any right to be on the same pitch as Liverpool, Barcelona and Besiktas yet we swept through the group due to player ability being the least of my worries if I got everything else right.

Quality of players irl will always be the most important factor in a game of football- and I just dont think FM reflects this.

"Quality of players irl will always be the most important factor in a game of football- and I just dont think FM reflects this."

Aggree 100%

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I can speak from experience as Ive just got my Rynninge IK through the group stage of the Champions League with a team that was predicted to come bottom of Swedish Premier. A team that although packed full of promising youngsters did not have (on the surface) any right to be on the same pitch as Liverpool, Barcelona and Besiktas yet we swept through the group due to player ability being the least of my worries if I got everything else right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you get everything just right, then of course you can win bigger teams. Look at Barnsley.

I disagree with what you say about having to get everything right. In Fm 07, that was true. In FM08, its not. My style of play is to buy good players and not worry about tactics too much. It works. I've been very successful with using one tatic but just buying better players.

Also, tajjuk. You say you've tested all this, can we see the evidence please?

No i didnt take any creen shots but if i have time i will do it again. Thing is its a computer game, i work all week and want to be able to play a few hours at a time, i want to sort out a formation, put some good players in a position and play through some games and have fun, i dont have time to respond to every tactical change the computer makes in amatch, also this is unrelaistic, most managers do not change formation in a game unless they really have to (i.e injusru) or they are loosing heavily, most of the time constant tactical changes upset the balance and flow of the team, also only 10% og ames in the prem are won by the team that concedes the first goal, yet in FM the computer always makes comebacks, just because i have kept the same formation, why should a striker who has been warming the bench all season, lacking confidence and match practice suddenly take the first chance he has? If to be succesful in this game you have to adjust tactics umpteem times in a game then thats not realistic nor fun, you cant crack a team just by fidlding tactics, sometimes it may help but 90% of the time the team with the better players should win.

Oh and Pablo Aimar just scored 5 goals against me from a total of 6 shots, he has a finishing of 12 and long shots of 13, most were from about 25-30 yards, plus he was lacking match practice and had poor morale! And no my keeper isnt rubbish.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

originally posted by tajjuk:-

Oh and Pablo Aimar just scored 5 goals against me from a total of 6 shots, he has a finishing of 12 and long shots of 13, most were from about 25-30 yards, plus he was lacking match practice and had poor morale! And no my keeper isnt rubbish.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you post the pkm of the match?

Click on the fixture, click save and the match pkm will be saved to the FM 2008 folder in my documents.

Then host it on www.rapidshare.com (or whichever host suits)

I've played every single version of Si's CM/FM, and I have never bothered that much with complex tactics or training routines. I'm an intelligent guy; I'm studying for a law degree, and quite successfully. But I just find it too time consuming and just annoying for a computer game to be honest.

If I was a real life manager, then this would be my JOB, to design and set training schedules to get the best out of the players, and to work out tactics each match. But to me, when I read of people tweaking this and that, and having all these different tactics with bits tweaked here and there, it's just not me.

However, I have never failed to be successful. This isn't a brag, I car not for that, but I am just saying that I have always done well. Very few games have I had to give up as a bad job cuz I cannot buy a win. On older games I've taken conference sides to the Premiership, I've won and dominated with already big sides, I've taken less fancied sides to better things.

I feel one of my strengths is in the transfer market, being able to have the patience to search for and find the right players. And to get them playing in the right formation. I generally play 4-4-2, pretty basic, NONE of the individual player instructions tweaked at all, just the team instructions. I have used a 4-1-2-2-1 (high wingers, so the 4-4-3 type formation) and 4-1-3-2 formations occassionally, to varying success. But I'd say most times, I'm good with 4-4-2. But I will change this if I see fit...tough away game, drop a striker and add another body in the middle. Stuff like that.

I'm not being arrogant, as I've said, I don't care for bragging, but I'm just honestly always shocked when I hear of people who are in relegation battles (think the ONLY ones I've ever been in, are when I've moved to a club late on in a season, and only once have I JUST failed to bring a side from the impossible brink...in the Norwegien 2nd league).

I've experienced all the 'cheats' of the AI too, and I shout them as cheats at the time too. Don't know if it is, but I thant while a computer cannot cheat, it's a bad word to use, it can be programmed to react in certain ways. I can be far too intelligent than it should. I.E. your side is playing a certain way, with certain players, and several goals up, and I think the AI can do things no human real life manager could ever do. But on the game, it can. This is where we get the 'the AI cheats' from. Silly things happen, almost on cue, far too often, to good managers with good players and tactics, for it to be a) a coincidence, or b) "YOUR TACTICS!!!!"

To sum up; while I can see exactly where the people who claim the AI cheats are coming from, and though I believe cheat is the wrong word, I totally agree with their points. I also think that many many many players are just...well, crap. They just don't get it. Whether they don't have the intelligence or the common sense, or don't pay enough attention (those guys who play 20/30/40 seasons, I've never got past 5/6, I dunno how they do it), I don't know, but I just know that I can almost always make it work with the right signings and making them fit and play how I want them to. And as I said, I never use complicated training or tactics...I leave training as it is at the start, and use pretty basic, straightforward tactics.

This FM is without a doubt more demanding tactially than any before it, same as 2007 required more than FM 06/05. However anyone who thinks they are a tactical genius is just being thrown a nice 'roll' to start. One game with Barnet (FM 2007) I earned promotion to the prem in 5 seasons (from League Two). I brought in some really good players and was chuffed with the team, thinking I'd probably manage to avoid relegation. After 20 games I was first by 7 points and undefeated, I'd beaten Chelsea, Man Utd and Liverpool. My team was one of the weakest in the league. Am I GOD? No, the game just allocated my plucky team a secret rating of 'awesome' or something. Of course my computer died and thus I lost these MASSIVE overachievers and a possible first for me (European football after the first season at the top league in any given country).

Have you ever noticed how one season your team can be flying and then suddenly basically the same team with maybe two better players are the worst in the league? Well you will have if you've played the game the way I do (One lower division team, all the way to the top)and you'll know it has (almost) nothing to do with your tactics.

Thats something that happens in real life all the time. The side who comes up and does well, staying up easily (see Wigan and Reading for recent examples), invariably always struggle far more in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, more than in their 1st.

They will have played most of the sides (in their 2nd season) twice before the previous season, and so they won't be the plucky newcomers anymore, but an established side in the league, and one the managers have had a good look at. So if you were punching above your weight the season before, you're gonna have to go some to not be up sh*t creek without a paddle lol!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LSF07:

Thats something that happens in real life all the time. The side who comes up and does well, staying up easily (see Wigan and Reading for recent examples), invariably always struggle far more in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, more than in their 1st.

They will have played most of the sides (in their 2nd season) twice before the previous season, and so they won't be the plucky newcomers anymore, but an established side in the league, and one the managers have had a good look at. So if you were punching above your weight the season before, you're gonna have to go some to not be up sh*t creek without a paddle lol! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't explain super Barnet beating Chelsea away COMFORTABLY (a still strong Chelsea, had won the title the year before). The fact is that shouldn't of happened, my team was slightly stronger than Reading's in their first prem season, did Reading beat the chavs away? Were they top after 20 games? Its obvious to me that the game assigned my team some sort of boost (invicible) at the start of the season.

You can prove anything with stats and here i go -

so far i have played 6 games this season, i have scored 5 goals and conceded 11, i have ammassed a mighty 3 draws (3pts).

I have had in those six games 80 shots, with 26 on target.

Which is - 32% accuracy and a 6% chance conversion ratio.

The AI in those six games has had 46 shots against me with 26 on target.

Which is 56% accuracy and a 24% chance coversion ratio.

The average finishing of he 6 players that have scored against me is 12.5.

The average finishing of my 4 most forward players is 17.5.

I rest my case.

this is rediculous now, winning two nil away at Liverpool at half time, go a bit more defensive, go counter attack, shock horror Liverppol come back to equalise, both with strikers coming off the bench too score with pretty much their first touch, what does the commentary say "someone must have had words with them at half time" hmmn thomas shcaff is the manager, motivational genius? er no motivating of 14, plus just for extra annoyance goals scored by Peter Crouch and Nicola Zigic off the bench, my 6' 6" centre back with heading 20 and jumping 20, conveniently away on international duty.

Oh and after a 9 game premiership winless streak where i have outplayed my opponents in at least 7 of the games, i get the message that the fans critiscise my tactics and that my "unwillingness to experiment could spell trouble" the game after i changed my tactics!

seriously this ia a sub standard product, i think its lucky this game is called football manager because it has no links with the old championships managers which were fun and actually worked.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by earmack:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LSF07:

Thats something that happens in real life all the time. The side who comes up and does well, staying up easily (see Wigan and Reading for recent examples), invariably always struggle far more in their 2nd and 3rd seasons, more than in their 1st.

They will have played most of the sides (in their 2nd season) twice before the previous season, and so they won't be the plucky newcomers anymore, but an established side in the league, and one the managers have had a good look at. So if you were punching above your weight the season before, you're gonna have to go some to not be up sh*t creek without a paddle lol! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't explain super Barnet beating Chelsea away COMFORTABLY (a still strong Chelsea, had won the title the year before). The fact is that shouldn't of happened, my team was slightly stronger than Reading's in their first prem season, did Reading beat the chavs away? Were they top after 20 games? Its obvious to me that the game assigned my team some sort of boost (invicible) at the start of the season. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WTF!

It was Barnsley, at Barnsleys ground and Chelsea hadn't won the title the year before. Get your facts right. Or at least one of them.

^^

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by asshole182:

WTF!

It was Barnsley, at Barnsleys ground and Chelsea hadn't won the title the year before. Get your facts right. Or at least one of them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Umm...he did. If not Chelsea then who the hell DID win the FA Cup last year? When someone talks about "the title" it doesn't automatically mean they're talking about the Premiership

Barnsley beat Chelsea in the FA Cup, and Chelsea were the defending champions of said cup, ergo they were the title-holders. Quite an apt username, by the way

...and I should really stop browsing forums when I've only had 3 hours' sleep in as many days

They were the cup holders, or just the holders.

Either way, to the thread starter, just get used to it. I see "made to rue missed chances" so often now it crops up in my dreams at night.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

Sorry to sound like a broken record, guys, but tactics forum. Plenty of people have success on this game. Tactics are more important than in any previous release, as are mental stats of players. Sorry again re the T-word. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- but its about time SI gave us better tools to work with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with backpackant. Actually, SI DO give us better tools to work with, in the form of Opposition Instructions (OI). I saw no mention of them in the OP or other posts bemoaning the AI. The AI uses them and IF you use them correctly, you will notice a significant effect.

In sum, it's your tactics, I'm afraid.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by phnompenhandy:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by backpackant:

Sorry to sound like a broken record, guys, but tactics forum. Plenty of people have success on this game. Tactics are more important than in any previous release, as are mental stats of players. Sorry again re the T-word. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- but its about time SI gave us better tools to work with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with backpackant. Actually, SI DO give us better tools to work with, in the form of Opposition Instructions (OI). I saw no mention of them in the OP or other posts bemoaning the AI. The AI uses them and IF you use them correctly, you will notice a significant effect.

In sum, it's your tactics, I'm afraid. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

er in sum its not and that the point, why should i have to look at what each opposition player is set to do? why should i react to what they AI is set up to do, when i have a collection of good players should the opposition not be trying to counter me?

Tactics and player instructions are all well and good but if you have crap players it makes it more difficult to win football matches FACT. Look at Derby their squad is poor, they have tried containing the opposition in games but have still lost, you could have had the most astutue tactical brain manage derby this season and it wouldnt of made a difference they need better players. Look at one of the most succesful managers around at the moment - Wenger, his success is not tactical brilliance, hes a good tactician but for example he plays a 4-4-2 with no left winger (Diaby), but his success is built on on young hungry team thaat he has coached specifically to play a certain way he also chooses players with pace and strength and thsi all shows in the way that they play, its not his tactics, im not saying is inept but Arsenal are as good as they are because of their players.

Ill use my local team that i play for, last two seasons we finished 3rd and 4th, this year were bottom, Have our opponents sussed out our tactics exposing key flaws? No our players have got unifitter, we have had more injuries and as a consequence we have lost key defenders and this has meant we have not had a settled back four and errors have been made.

The last few versions of FM morale seem to have too much effect, this one it seems that you have adjust your tactics all the time because the AI exploits flaws in it. Yet it doesnt work the other way round, for example if the AI plays a man of the strikers and i have a flat 2 man midfield, this man is effective finds space and wins the game for the AI, yet the other way round and my man in behind the strikers gets nullified. If i play 4-4-2 with attacking wingers and the other team has a narrow midfield i should be able to get some crosses in, but i dont.

The game which i have now switched off and i am unlikely to go back to, i did not win in 12 premiership games, it nothing to do with morale, because i cheated here to see the effects and used FMM to boost the pleyers to full morale and fitness before the games.

I also used FMM to look at my players CAs, i had two players in the high 180's, 4 in the high 170's and not a single first team player with a CA below 165. So with full morale, full fitness (inc match fitness) your telling me that i am so tactically inept that i cannot win one game out of 12 with a team that is supperior to probably 9 or 10 of the teams i played? Well im not i have played this game for years and have always been succesful and tactically aware, yet this version apparently i have to adjust to every move the computer makes to get one damn win, thats just boring, FM shouldnt be chess, if i put myself on holiday my team instantly improves even though my assistant is great tactically (bought for coaching skills) and i tell him to use same tactics and selection. So clearly the AI performs differently agains the human player. Its bit like flight simulator, most people in that game just want to crash a 747, but not many actually want to play it properly because it is so complicated, and if they did they would be actual airline pilots and get paid for it.

I'm sort of surprised that nobody has mentioned Team Talks in this thread.

If you don't read any of the rest of this post, please read Wolfsong's Guide to team talks and Communications and Psychological Warfare. I think those two threads together will provide the answers to many of the problems you've outlined.

Stats from my own game don't support your claim that the computer is more clinical:

For my last 12* games, my team have:

119 shots

49 on target

29 goals scored

We have allowed:

104 shots

40 on target

16 goals scored

Goals/shots

Me: 24.4%

AI: 15.4%

Goals/shot on target

Me: 59.2%

AI: 40.0%

Shots on target/shot

Me: 41.2%

AI: 38.5%

Goals per game

Me: 2.42

AI: 1.33

* - I picked "12 games" because I had two particularly frustrating games 10 and 11 games ago, so I wanted to make sure the AI got "credit" for its performance those two games.

Note that my GK was significantly below my league standard, to the point where I upgraded at the January transfer window, which has just started. So, if the AI really were more clinical than the human player, I'd have expected that to be exacerbated in my team's stats.

Since, season-long, I've been averaging 2.3 goals to 1.3 conceded, I think this is a representative sample size.

So, it sure looks to me like my team are more clinical than the AI.

. . .

I think we can conclude from that that you and I must be doing different things: we're getting very different results with the same program. Therefore - here's the good news - its in your control to change what you're doing.

You cited your "average finishing". I don't think Finishing is the end-all be-all for strikers, by any means. Technique, Composure, Concentration, and Off The Ball all play a huge role, and there are many other mental and physical attributes that will also play their part depending on the circumstances. For the last several versions of the game, I have felt that mental attributes are growing in importance, and that has been all the more true in FM'08.

You talk about Liverpool coming back from a 2-0 halftime deficit. That sounds very much like a "botched" half-time team-talk to me. Ok, first, when I "get it wrong", my team suffers .. badly! (Thus, those two "frustrating" matches I mentioned earlier!) Whether that's realistic or not, its still something I can handle: Read "Wolfsong's Guide to Team Talks" over in the Tactics Forum.

Again, when you talk about your players not feeling clinical to you - other people I have guided to Wolfsong's have also come back and said "Wow, that fixed the shots-to-goals ratio problem for me!"

One key thing is, when I feel like I've gotten the team-talk or media commentary wrong for a player, and his play is suffering .. I get him the heck out of there: his substitute always always always does better.

In your most recent post, you go on to talk about "Why should I have to look at what each opposition player is set to do?", and "Why should I react to what the AI is set up to do?"

That's certainly one of the things I do: I got through each player on the opposition and try to disrupt him via Opposition Instructions.

His foot is "Right Only?" .. I show him onto his Left foot.

He has low Bravery and Composure? .. I set Hard Tackling, always.

He has low Composure, Decisions, Anticipation? .. I set Closing Down, always, especially useful against young defenders and goalkeepers: you can force them into errors and own-goals just by applying pressure.

A midfielder with killer Long Shots? I've got to close him down.

A lethal winger or striker with lower Pace and Acceleration? Tight Marking, Always, especially if my opposite number is faster and has high Marking.

When I've got these "right", it works a charm: we throttle the opposition, rattle their players, and force them completely out of their strengths.

Adjusting my tactics because the AI exploits flaws in it? I haven't felt that way. I watch it on Extended Highlights, and I can usually spot trouble-spots before they turn into goals.

Usually I can predict where the AI is going to go before they go there: for example, if they always go to the 4-2-4 around the 80th minute while trailing, I go to my "4-2-4 killer" around the 78th minute .. then I don't find myself mismatched and reactive, I've got them walking straight into my trap.

Sorry you aren't finding it "fun" .. but I think that there are plenty of resources available to you to help you learn to enjoy it: Wolfsong's guide to team talks. The "Communication and Psychological Warfare" guide. Wwfan's tactical theorems and frameworks. And many more ..

If you want to insist that you don't want to play it that way .. well, you don't have to .. but the modern FM is probably not for you.

Personally?

I'm having a lot of fun with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Amaroq:

I'm sort of surprised that nobody has mentioned Team Talks in this thread.

If you don't read any of the rest of this post, please read Wolfsong's Guide to team talks and Communications and Psychological Warfare. I think those two threads together will provide the answers to many of the problems you've outlined.

Stats from my own game don't support your claim that the computer is more clinical:

For my last 12* games, my team have:

119 shots

49 on target

29 goals scored

We have allowed:

104 shots

40 on target

16 goals scored

Goals/shots

Me: 24.4%

AI: 15.4%

Goals/shot on target

Me: 59.2%

AI: 40.0%

Shots on target/shot

Me: 41.2%

AI: 38.5%

Goals per game

Me: 2.42

AI: 1.33

* - I picked "12 games" because I had two particularly frustrating games 10 and 11 games ago, so I wanted to make sure the AI got "credit" for its performance those two games.

Note that my GK was significantly below my league standard, to the point where I upgraded at the January transfer window, which has just started. So, if the AI really were more clinical than the human player, I'd have expected that to be exacerbated in my team's stats.

Since, season-long, I've been averaging 2.3 goals to 1.3 conceded, I think this is a representative sample size.

So, it sure looks to me like my team are more clinical than the AI.

. . .

I think we can conclude from that that you and I must be doing different things: we're getting very different results with the same program. Therefore - here's the good news - its in your control to change what you're doing.

You cited your "average finishing". I don't think Finishing is the end-all be-all for strikers, by any means. Technique, Composure, Concentration, and Off The Ball all play a huge role, and there are many other mental and physical attributes that will also play their part depending on the circumstances. For the last several versions of the game, I have felt that mental attributes are growing in importance, and that has been all the more true in FM'08.

You talk about Liverpool coming back from a 2-0 halftime deficit. That sounds very much like a "botched" half-time team-talk to me. Ok, first, when I "get it wrong", my team suffers .. badly! (Thus, those two "frustrating" matches I mentioned earlier!) Whether that's realistic or not, its still something I can handle: Read "Wolfsong's Guide to Team Talks" over in the Tactics Forum.

Again, when you talk about your players not feeling clinical to you - other people I have guided to Wolfsong's have also come back and said "Wow, that fixed the shots-to-goals ratio problem for me!"

One key thing is, when I feel like I've gotten the team-talk or media commentary wrong for a player, and his play is suffering .. I get him the heck out of there: his substitute always always always does better.

In your most recent post, you go on to talk about "Why should I have to look at what each opposition player is set to do?", and "Why should I react to what the AI is set up to do?"

That's certainly one of the things I do: I got through each player on the opposition and try to disrupt him via Opposition Instructions.

His foot is "Right Only?" .. I show him onto his Left foot.

He has low Bravery and Composure? .. I set Hard Tackling, always.

He has low Composure, Decisions, Anticipation? .. I set Closing Down, always, especially useful against young defenders and goalkeepers: you can force them into errors and own-goals just by applying pressure.

A midfielder with killer Long Shots? I've got to close him down.

A lethal winger or striker with lower Pace and Acceleration? Tight Marking, Always, especially if my opposite number is faster and has high Marking.

When I've got these "right", it works a charm: we throttle the opposition, rattle their players, and force them completely out of their strengths.

Adjusting my tactics because the AI exploits flaws in it? I haven't felt that way. I watch it on Extended Highlights, and I can usually spot trouble-spots before they turn into goals.

Usually I can predict where the AI is going to go before they go there: for example, if they always go to the 4-2-4 around the 80th minute while trailing, I go to my "4-2-4 killer" around the 78th minute .. then I don't find myself mismatched and reactive, I've got them walking straight into my trap.

Sorry you aren't finding it "fun" .. but I think that there are plenty of resources available to you to help you learn to enjoy it: Wolfsong's guide to team talks. The "Communication and Psychological Warfare" guide. Wwfan's tactical theorems and frameworks. And many more ..

If you want to insist that you don't want to play it that way .. well, you don't have to .. but the modern FM is probably not for you.

Personally?

I'm having a lot of fun with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have pretty muched proved my point, you have suggested going to threads to look up stuff and setting instructions for each individual player, watching on extended highlights, I dont have time for this, if i played like this id get like 2 games done everytime, its fine if you want to play like this, but i dont want to be doing more stuff than a proffessional manager does to play the game and do ok, not amazing, as i said you should be able to use a default tactic with the pre-set player settings and get ok results, otherwise what are they there for? what you are talking about should be about getting the extra 10% out of your players and tactics, it should not be a neccesity in a computer game to do ok, oh and you have suggested about team talks, firstly as i said i artifically boosted morale before each game and the teamtalks had little effect on morale, also if they do not do what they say on the tin, then why also are they there? if encourage is not an attempt at encouraging then what is it, also tell me in what situation a manager when his team is leading says well done, you dont get a well done till the job is complete, not half way there. In that Liverpool game it was not a 'botched team talk' as you suggested i told them to keep their performance up, however this has little to no effect, whereas on the flip side the AI clearly shouted at his players which gives them a huge boost and enable them to make a succesful come back even when they were playing poorly, that is a 'botched game'.

As i said i have a team that ability wise is at least 5 best in the league if not more, yet i cannot get them to perform with sensible tactical choices, full morale and fitness to anywhere near that level, if i have to go through all the stuff you suggested just to get them there then this wrong because it is unrealistic. Oh and i quoted my strikers finishing because it was easiest but they all have good technique, compusure, long shots, anticipation, becuase i know what makes a good striker, unfourtunately their ability does not reflect in the game.

this poast has drifted in to other areas and u said about the game getting harder. It deffinatly has cos ive played all the old cm games aswell and when i was much younger i could take brentford into the top league and be winning 5 nil every week. I think its more challenging now so theres times ill get annoyed and wont play it for weeks. I think moral is easily lost on this and does have a big impact. the amount of times ive missed out on europe or play offs by 1 point is ridiculous. even fm06 i could basically get any team promoted first year but its deffinatly harder now. it is hard to score sometimes and u have 20 shots score 1 the computer has 4 and scores 2 that is annoying so is not being able to keep a 1 or 2 nil lead or losing in the 89th minute but i spose it happens in football aswell. another thing is if my gk or striker is playing out of this world theres a good chance he will get injured. maybe i should download the patch lol

Tajjuk, I can very much empathize with what you're saying. I was a huge fan of CM01/02, and got a lot of enjoyment out of it despite the fairly simplistic "pick your best XI and click Continue" fest that it turned into.

What I loved about it was that it felt like the game told me the story of an epic career, with each season feeling like a "Chapter"; I really loved taking a regen from 16-year-old debutante to 38-year-old going into coaching.

The modern FM, to me, feels much more like the game is trying to tell the story of a single season, with each match feeling like a "Chapter".

When I first came to the forum, I railed against that quite a bit; I yearned for the simplicity of CM01/02, and resisted the change in focus.

It wasn't until I started my story over in FMS and really changed my focus to match the game's that I began enjoying it again.

So, yeah, I think its somewhat a case where you either embrace it and accept it .. or accept that this is (no longer) the game for you .. or accept that you will sometimes get suboptimal performance from your team because you aren't putting the effort into it.

Regarding the Liverpool match, I find "None" to be the best team talk for a 2-0 scoreline. My last two matches were 2-0 at halftime; in the first, I said I was pleased, shipped three goals to the last-placed team, then fought back for a 3-3 draw. I botched it, clearly, no matter what the opposition manager did. In the second, I said "None", gave a "Disappointed" to my one player on a 6 and a "Pleased" to my two players on an 8 .. and held to 2-0 until the final whistle.

I do, personally, feel that the Team Talks are overpowered and a sort of frustrating "Guess the right answer" mechanic; if I were designing the game I would nerf it a bit and add some depth to it. ( Team-Talks: Time for a revamp?) But, I'm not, and if I rage against it every time I play I'm just stressing myself out and denying myself the enjoyment of the rest of the game.

So I accept it .. and hope that it gets updated in FM'09 or FM'10 .. and enjoy the rest of the game.

My sympathy .. and I hope you can get past that feeling, as I did.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by tajjuk:

this is rediculous now, winning two nil away at Liverpool at half time, go a bit more defensive, go counter attack, shock horror Liverppol come back to equalise, both with strikers coming off the bench too score with pretty much their first touch, what does the commentary say "someone must have had words with them at half time" hmmn thomas shcaff is the manager, motivational genius? er no motivating of 14, plus just for extra annoyance goals scored by Peter Crouch and Nicola Zigic off the bench, my 6' 6" centre back with heading 20 and jumping 20, conveniently away on international duty.

Oh and after a 9 game premiership winless streak where i have outplayed my opponents in at least 7 of the games, i get the message that the fans critiscise my tactics and that my "unwillingness to experiment could spell trouble" the game after i changed my tactics!

seriously this ia a sub standard product, i think its lucky this game is called football manager because it has no links with the old championships managers which were fun and actually worked. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sitting on a lead is not always the best idea, certainly at Anfield.