Discussion - Have arrows destroyed the beautiful game?

I used to be one of the supporters of arrows in the game, because they would give us flexibility in assigning defensive and attacking options in the game. The new match engine in FM2008, has made one thing apparent to me as I continue to play the game - and that is the fact that arrows are now making any ol tactic look good.

Arrows have given tactics a dualism they have never had. Now we can set up Crazy Arrow formations (Carrow ) formations that have players charging everywhere. Forward runs and the mentality slider also act to give a player the same, though the same cannot be said about sideways arrows(Sarrows) as there isn't an instruction in the game that allows for it. And like Ackter has suggested, perhaps individual width should be the way to go.

The AMC>FC position is a notorious exploit as it sees the AMC glide past even 2 DMCs and a DC to score goals. Bad enough we had a solo striker to work against, now the arrows have given the AMCs way too much in terms of ability. To illustrate this better, my AMC in the Gloucester City side outscored the strikers by a ratio of 2-1 and created as many assists. 40 goals from an AMC saw his value skyrocket from 100000 to 4.5million in a year.

If one were to create a well thought out Carrow formation, he could conceivably shut out the opposition. And while good players are the hallmark of any good tactic, carrow formations are now quickly sidelining tactics such as the 433 or the 442 formations. The modern 4231 is a good defensive tactic and can work without arrows.

The AI in FM2008, is decent, easy to beat and highly predictable. Personally I think arrows should be taken out of the game in favour of forward runs and perhaps improvements in the mentality slider to account for deeper players.

I used to be one of the supporters of arrows in the game, because they would give us flexibility in assigning defensive and attacking options in the game. The new match engine in FM2008, has made one thing apparent to me as I continue to play the game - and that is the fact that arrows are now making any ol tactic look good.

Arrows have given tactics a dualism they have never had. Now we can set up Crazy Arrow formations (Carrow ) formations that have players charging everywhere. Forward runs and the mentality slider also act to give a player the same, though the same cannot be said about sideways arrows(Sarrows) as there isn't an instruction in the game that allows for it. And like Ackter has suggested, perhaps individual width should be the way to go.

The AMC>FC position is a notorious exploit as it sees the AMC glide past even 2 DMCs and a DC to score goals. Bad enough we had a solo striker to work against, now the arrows have given the AMCs way too much in terms of ability. To illustrate this better, my AMC in the Gloucester City side outscored the strikers by a ratio of 2-1 and created as many assists. 40 goals from an AMC saw his value skyrocket from 100000 to 4.5million in a year.

If one were to create a well thought out Carrow formation, he could conceivably shut out the opposition. And while good players are the hallmark of any good tactic, carrow formations are now quickly sidelining tactics such as the 433 or the 442 formations. The modern 4231 is a good defensive tactic and can work without arrows.

The AI in FM2008, is decent, easy to beat and highly predictable. Personally I think arrows should be taken out of the game in favour of forward runs and perhaps improvements in the mentality slider to account for deeper players.

I think you know what I think

Arrows =

I feel a challenge coming on

How about a forum challenge to create the best tactic with absolutely no arrows?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

Arrows have given tactics a dualism they have never had. Now we can set up Crazy Arrow formations (Carrow ) formations </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, lets leave that one here otherwise we'll have everyone asking that question again

I think I agree to an extent, it feels like we've reverted back to the 'wibble, wobble' days now in that you can use arrows to position your players in a way that exploites AI weakness.

However, I don't think I'd like to see arrows removed altogether. In my head, if I was a real life manger I'd be using a white board and arrows to explain to my players where I want them to be in certain situations. For that reason alone I'd like to see the arrows remain, but their affectiveness be toned down.

If you've got arrows all over the place and have wingers and/or midfielders running into the box the opposition should be more effective at exploiting the space you've left. This way a more balanced tactic that relied on keeping a good shape would be more effective, and imo this would be more realistic.

Personally I think either FWD runs or arrows should be eliminated. If just to reduce the confusion. I mean if I put my ML/R on FWD arrows to the AML/R position yet set then to have no forward runs, what do will they do?

Unless arrows are dramatically improved I think they should go. One of the improvements I would like to see is dictating when arrows/fwd runs come into affect.

When my ML has the ball in a crossing position I want my LB to cover him and my MR to be running in attacking the far post, while my RB pushes up a little bit to recycle possesion if the ball is headed out of the box.

Now the BETTER AI managers should spot this and tell their ML to drop back to mark the RB OR push forward to exploit the space behind him incase of a counter.

This is one of my biggest frustrations about the game. EVERY SINGLE MANAGER in FM can notice and exploit a weakness in a formation, and NEARLY EVERY PLAYER in FM can carry out the required action to nullify the threat. This is a major flaw within the game. IRL good managers are good managers because they consistently notice weaknesses with opposing frameworks and make the right desicion to exploit them. This is what sets the likes of Cappello, Mourinho and Ferguson apart from the rest. Also in FM if the opposing manager has found a way of nullifying Ronaldo for example, the majority of players carry those instructions out to a tee and completely take him out of the game. This shouldn't happen. Only the best players should consistentely be able to cancel Ronaldo out. I don't care if a league two manager has worked up a theory on how to nullify Ronaldo. Due to the quality gap between Ronaldo and his marker who is using this theory to attempt to nullify him, I would still expect on most days Ronaldo to dominate regardless on instructions given to the opposing marker.

Moreover, if I wanted to create a 'Lampard' type CM role arriving late into the box, should I give him a farrow, fwd runs or what?

In short the tactics and match engine in FM are far too brittle and one dimensional to be realistic, and at the moment a lot of tactics is guesswork, making the game a chore. Until the match engine and tactical set up is improved massively (which I appreciate is an extremely complex thing to do) or some assistance is given to use from an assistant manager/coaches can give us in game tips then the game will continue to be a chore.

Although changing the way players and managers inbterpret things as outlined in the larger paragraph above should be done ASAP.

*interpret.

I laighed at Carrow

Hmm...Intresting post..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by swash:

I feel a challenge coming on

How about a forum challenge to create the best tactic with absolutely no arrows? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too easy

Arrows are too effective, but not for everyone. You still need to understand arrows and how the actually work before you can get them working for you. I've seen a lot of people assume that by using arrows they will get the best out of that player in that position. That's not true, you still have to get his settings right.

what is this AMC exploit? i dont use arrows anyway. compelete waste of time IMO

The AMC with arrow can be comparable with the corner tactic. You just need good old fashion pace + finishing.

My AMC Maxi Rodriguez with the arrow score 30 in 16 games.

In the current build I have a tactic where my AMC scored a shedload of goals in his first season in the premiership. I can email you the pkm if you want PaulC.

I,personally don't agree that using an farrowed AMC is such an exploit.Cause in real life,allmost every big team plays like this and it's normal that players like Berbatov,Tevez,Aguero to be a danger for the opposition.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulC:

Please do, thanks :-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My bad...noticed you asked for an AMC to do it without an arrow. We all know about the farrowed AMC, don't think you need pkms for that but if you do let me know. I'm knackered had a long hard at work wrapping up our own roll-out.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by il_fenomeno:

I,personally don't agree that using an farrowed AMC is such an exploit.Cause in real life,allmost every big team plays like this and it's normal that players like Berbatov,Tevez,Aguero to be a danger for the opposition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not when any average AMC can glide unopposed between the defenders even when you pop 2 DMs there to block him. When was the last time you saw ANY AMC in real life banging in 30 goals in a season from a central position? You named strikers that's to be expected, we're talking about AMCs.

Could someone please explain this AMC exploit please? Is it an AMC behind a ST and the AMC farrowed ontop of the FC?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by aston_martin:

Could someone please explain this AMC exploit please? Is it an AMC behind a ST and the AMC farrowed ontop of the ST? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have arrow's destroyed our beautiful game ? No definatly NOT if used correctly and at the right time's arrows are a good way to exploit a manager's weakness or a managers Naiveity.

What is spoiling our game is the OVERUSE of the arrow's , i see tactic's with 5-6 arrows on them with little effect on player fitness,which is unbalanced and needs looking at.If arrows are to stay then players need to be hit much harder physicaly when using these arrows.

What i would like to see is a maximum amount of arrows,farrows etc per game,Say 2 arrows per game with maybe the option of another farrow kicking in at a certain point in the game say the 75th min or 80th min..

As for AMC there are far too many effective one's in the game.I.M.O AMC is a specialized position and alot of in game AMC's should be moved back to normal MC..

As for the AMC exploit, i dont see it so much playing FM08 but i think it rife in FML and too many manager's with win at all costs are using this exploit, just look at people's tactics id guarantee 8 out of 10 players i meet in FM-Live have an AMC with a farrow..

I think its one amc running in between 2 strikers. DC´s mark strikers - nobody marks amc who gets an easy goal. Kind of like the old Diablo exploit

I don't think 'realistic' arrows are the problem but more the inability of the AI to adapt. I would reckon that in FM Live you wouldn't get away with half of this stuff when against a human manager with reasonable understanding of the tactical interface.

As for crazy arrow formations like Kimz that's a different story

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrewbanny:

Have arrow's destroyed our beautiful game ? No definatly NOT if used correctly and at the right time's arrows are a good way to exploit a manager's weakness or a managers Naiveity.

What is spoiling our game is the OVERUSE of the arrow's , i see tactic's with 5-6 arrows on them with little effect on player fitness,which is unbalanced and needs looking at.If arrows are to stay then players need to be hit much harder physicaly when using these arrows.

What i would like to see is a maximum amount of arrows,farrows etc per game,Say 2 arrows per game with maybe the option of another farrow kicking in at a certain point in the game say the 75th min or 80th min..

As for AMC there are far too many effective one's in the game.I.M.O AMC is a specialized position and alot of in game AMC's should be moved back to normal MC..

As for the AMC exploit, i dont see it so much playing FM08 but i think it rife in FML and too many manager's with win at all costs are using this exploit, just look at people's tactics id guarantee 8 out of 10 players i meet in FM-Live have an AMC with a farrow.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you can limit the amount of arrows in the game because there is no scope in the real world to enforce such a restriction and thus it's inclusion in the game would be a misrepresentation.

Either the arrows have to disappear entirely or their use should be unrestricted, but as you mention should have more severe consequences for fitness both during and after the match.

You make a good point about FM Live, if there are weaknesses in the match engine then unfortunately due to the competitive nature of online play people are going to exploit them. On the positive side it should eventually progress into a match engine that is not open to blatant exploitation.

This is what a DMC is for, whenever i see a formation using a AMC, more so in FML i will always play my strong DMC and this takes away some if not all of the effectiveness of the AMC with a farrow.

5 Games with AMC with farrow in very average blackpool team.

Game 1 Rating 6, 4 shots, 3 on target

Game 2 Rating 8, 3 shots, 2 on target, 1 assists

Game 3 Rating 8, 2 shots, 1 on target, 1 goal

Game 4 Rating 9, 3 shots, 3 on target, 2 goals, 1 assist

Game 5 Rating 7, 1 shot, 1 on target.

5 Games without farrows on AMC.

Game 1 Rating 7, 3 shots, 2 on target.

Game 2 Rating 8, 1 shots, 1 on target. 1 Goal

Game 3 Rating 7 3 shots, 0 on target.

Game 4 Rating 7, 0 shots, 0 on target,

Game 5 Rating 8, 4 shots, 2 on target. 1 goal

2 striker's had side farrows on them makng more space for the AMC and i think if i had the AMC as a target man he may even of been more dangerous.

This was just a quick test, but looking at it then AMC does seem over effective with a F-arrow, considering this is Blackpool and we lost most of the games and my AMC is Gary Taylor-Fletcher no world beater.

Will defo do a more serious test when i get the time as im so wrapped up in FML at the mo.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by il_fenomeno:

I,personally don't agree that using an farrowed AMC is such an exploit.Cause in real life,allmost every big team plays like this and it's normal that players like Berbatov,Tevez,Aguero to be a danger for the opposition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not when any average AMC can glide unopposed between the defenders even when you pop 2 DMs there to block him. When was the last time you saw ANY AMC in real life banging in 30 goals in a season from a central position? You named strikers that's to be expected, we're talking about AMCs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well,that's true.

so rash, what do you think

this formation is better

][/url]

or this ?

][/url]

how look your 4231 ( please for screenshots )

thanx a lot, sorry for english

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't think 'realistic' arrows are the problem but more the inability of the AI to adapt. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Second here . To some degree arrows (crazy or not) compensate for somewhat limited instructions we can give for players. Human user would solve farrow AMC problem very easy (sarrow DM to DC position, or ask DM man mark AMC specifically, or play 3 DC instead of 2, or something else). Why ME does not imply any such option for AI is another question.

On the other hand I want to be able to tell my players that they should be in different default positions depending on whether we have the ball or not. Moreover, ideally I would want to make those instructions even more complex / detailed.

I'm quite interested to find out if this is specifically position or farrow related or if there's different angles that get the same outcome.

Does this only work if the AMC with farrow is in the most central position with a farrow to the most central striker position? (In a similar manner to the MC on long farrow to striker in the infamous Diablo formation).

I'm interested because I generally use a staggered front line like this:

Alternatively, recently I have been using arrow instructions like this, with a little more success:

Finally, I'm wondering if something like this, with a central AMC with farrow to central striker, is what's exposing a flaw in the match engine?

Interestingly, I've rarely used any formations which use have the latter setup, so maybe I've missed an opportunity all this time. Perhaps it's my love of 4-4-2 variants and my inability to listen to Cleon's advice & love of single striker formations.

So, my question is...

Is it only the central AMC with farrow to striker that is exposing this flaw, or has anyone noticed it with AMC farrow settings like those I've shown in the first two images?

Speaking of this AMC with farrow business, i use a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 formation with a AMC and Sarrows on the strikers.

Reading this thread i decided to try out giving my AMC a farrow and if anything, his performances have since slipped?

He's not seeing nearly as much of the ball and after having 16 shots in hid first five games, he has now had only 4 shots in his last 4?

I take it the exploit is not as simple as giving the AMC a farrow, it must have something to do with his individual instructions too to get the most out of it?

methinks that is very possible, though hard now but I the arrows were instead configured to show where the players will stand with their mentality settings, wouldn't that be better.

So when you have the ball assuming ML is on mentality 10 and MR is on mentality 13. it would indicate....

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

|

|

ML MR

</pre>

That way you know where your players will be with the ball when they are in possession of it. If you set him to forward runs often then he takes off whenever a player next or near to him has the ball. When he has mixed FWR he does it in the opposing half and when he is set to none, then he holds his position. A negative mentality would see him drop deeper. So a mentality of 10 would be default position and a mentality of 1 would see him drop right to near the defensive line.

What this needs is a more reactive mentality slider, and, the arrows would then not be a positional tool but a gauge to where your players will be when the are given certain settings, so you could see the gaps in a formation for example, which honestly very few of us can see even now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Freddie:

Speaking of this AMC with farrow business, i use a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 formation with a AMC and Sarrows on the strikers.

Reading this thread i decided to try out giving my AMC a farrow and if anything, his performances have since slipped?

He's not seeing nearly as much of the ball and after having 16 shots in hid first five games, he has now had only 4 shots in his last 4?

I take it the exploit is not as simple as giving the AMC a farrow, it must have something to do with his individual instructions too to get the most out of it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To get the exploit happening there is a variety of things that need to happen, its a combination of arrows and instructions for more than just the AMC, but also for the striker. I don't intend to go too much detail into it, but I'm sure there are some here who have discovered it already. I'm hoping this thread doesn't become a quest to find out the exploit, but a discussion about the relevance of arrows, or the future of instructions of players. The goal is to make the tactical screen more informative, and less a game of hit and miss.

Rashidi,

But mentality is not only about position as far as I understand. It also about taking risk. So for instanse, if I want my DM to support attack and help create chances, as well as help defense I would rather give him lower mentality with farrow than higher mentality with no arrow (I just made it up, I don't play like this).

I don't like arrows as they work now, because, for example, I don't want my ML/R to move to AML/R position when my GK takes goal kick. I would prefer them to be in ML/R position. However, once my DM gets the ball, I want my ML/R move up, so that DM could try trough ball. Etc. But leaving everything up to mentality is not the best option imho.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

methinks that is very possible, though hard now but I the arrows were instead configured to show where the players will stand with their mentality settings, wouldn't that be better.

So when you have the ball assuming ML is on mentality 10 and MR is on mentality 13. it would indicate....

<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">

|

|

ML MR

</pre>

That way you know where your players will be with the ball when they are in possession of it. If you set him to forward runs often then he takes off whenever a player next or near to him has the ball. When he has mixed FWR he does it in the opposing half and when he is set to none, then he holds his position. A negative mentality would see him drop deeper. So a mentality of 10 would be default position and a mentality of 1 would see him drop right to near the defensive line.

What this needs is a more reactive mentality slider, and, the arrows would then not be a positional tool but a gauge to where your players will be when the are given certain settings, so you could see the gaps in a formation for example, which honestly very few of us can see even now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That really is quite good Rash, however I want to be able to tell my players what do do when the ball is in different places on the pitch or when it is at the feet of different people. Maybe this is asking too much but I want to be able to tell my attacking players to come deep when my hard working CM has got the ball because he can't pass, however I want them to be making runs past opposing lines when my creative midfielder has got the ball.

*to do not do do ffs.

Can someone who understands the game engine better than I do give me a definition, in layman's terms, of what the following actually do:

Mentality

Forward Runs

Arrows.

I know that may sound really simplistic, but I know what I think they do but it appears that various people think they do different things and if we're to get a conclusion to this question I thought it might be best to start with the basics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

To get the exploit happening there is a variety of things that need to happen, its a combination of arrows and instructions for more than just the AMC, but also for the striker. I don't intend to go too much detail into it, but I'm sure there are some here who have discovered it already. I'm hoping this thread doesn't become a quest to find out the exploit, but a discussion about the relevance of arrows, or the future of instructions of players. The goal is to make the tactical screen more informative, and less a game of hit and miss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Rashidi

With a comment like that you know all us ignorants to the "fantastic" exploit will want you to share it

I myself is not very relaxed when some secret is out there somewhere and it might sometimes same me from relegation or get tha crusial promotion playoff victory.

You need to share it somewhere!!

Just wondering, what do people think of the idea of each player having a seperate tempo sliders? I saw in the first post that Rashidi mentioned the individual width slider, but I think a tempo one would be great.

Look at Arsenal in real life, they play a multi tempo'd game IMO. With the defence holding the ball a lot, then playing it to a midfielder who springs into life surprising the opposition with a quick pass. Is their already a way to do this, or is it a good idea for the future?

Sorry that it's not related to arrows, just wondering what your ideas on the concept are.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rashidi1:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Young Freddie:

Speaking of this AMC with farrow business, i use a narrow 4-1-2-1-2 formation with a AMC and Sarrows on the strikers.

Reading this thread i decided to try out giving my AMC a farrow and if anything, his performances have since slipped?

He's not seeing nearly as much of the ball and after having 16 shots in hid first five games, he has now had only 4 shots in his last 4?

I take it the exploit is not as simple as giving the AMC a farrow, it must have something to do with his individual instructions too to get the most out of it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To get the exploit happening there is a variety of things that need to happen, its a combination of arrows and instructions for more than just the AMC, but also for the striker. I don't intend to go too much detail into it, but I'm sure there are some here who have discovered it already. I'm hoping this thread doesn't become a quest to find out the exploit, but a discussion about the relevance of arrows, or the future of instructions of players. The goal is to make the tactical screen more informative, and less a game of hit and miss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does that mean you are not going to share it with us?

There was a time that crazy arrows all over the place would have resulted in a completely knackered team by half time. This seemed realistic to me. Now I can have players running all over the place and it barely makes a dent in their condition.

Personally, I preferred the wibble/wobble screens. It made tactics more complex and individual. I know people complained it wasn't realistic, but ultimately the whole idea of managing people through a computer simulation isn't that realistic. The wibble/wobble screens allowed you to communicate your tactical ideas to your team more effectively.

Wibble/Wobble may not have been perfect but I think it would've been better if SI could've worked on that rather than replace it, with what is IMO a pretty poor tactical interface. It was OK in the likes on FM05/06 but with how complicated the ME is becoming the tactical interface still lags behind - leading to the frustrations that surafced in 07 and have grown in 08. It's pretty simple in my view, the tactical interface we have is no where near sophisticated enough when compared to the ME.

I think its only the advanced users it will spoil the game for, for those of us that are still getting to grips with it all theres no problem, we don't see all of the weaknesses in the AI so we cant exploit them.

I don't tend to download weird looking tactics, and i never got into the habit of putting loads or arrows everywhere so it doesn't really affect me.

I still haven't got an AMC to work in the way others have claimed it can, me ST are still the top scorers.

I say get rid of the arrows, they can be used to unrealistically exploit the AI, and they also do not allow you to place Back or Forward arrows on a player whom you have already assigned a Side arrow. Arrows could be replaced by improving Forward Runs instructions.

Cut the Mentality clicks down to 5 to make it realistic - Ultra Defensive, Defensive, Normal, Attacking, All-out Attack (NO manager in the world instructs his players to play defensive on 5 clicks, no not 4, 5 that's it, yes... er boss? wtf?)

Do the same for passing - Very Short, Short/Mixed, Mixed, Mixed/Direct, Direct, Long.

Add a "Cut Inside When Making Run" player instruction's option - Rarely, Mixed, Often.

Add a "Trackback" option too, ideally for use with wingers.

More options, less clicks on each slider. And you'll get a more balanced game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gaffovski:

I say get rid of the arrows, they can be used to unrealistically exploit the AI, and they also do not allow you to place Back or Forward arrows on a player whom you have already assigned a Side arrow. Arrows could be replaced by improving Forward Runs instructions.

Cut the Mentality clicks down to 5 to make it realistic - Ultra Defensive, Defensive, Normal, Attacking, All-out Attack (NO manager in the world instructs his players to play defensive on 5 clicks, no not 4, 5 that's it, yes... er boss? wtf?)

Do the same for passing - Very Short, Short/Mixed, Mixed, Mixed/Direct, Direct, Long.

Add a "Cut Inside When Making Run" player instruction's option - Rarely, Mixed, Often.

Add a "Trackback" option too, ideally for use with wingers.

More options, less clicks on each slider. And you'll get a more balanced game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

@rashidi1

You call arrows unrealistic.. while many users will say the same thing about stuff like 4-2-4, super keepers, shot on target/goal ratio, you know.

"AI in FM2008 is easy to beat", yeah right. Look at other topics, everyone are usually like "AI is cheating", "this game is too hard" etc.

So, either you or a lot of people are wrong, myself included. You cannot really expect a proper discussion about an AMC-arrow being an exploit with people thinking like that, right? What if it happens only in your game(s)?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by serek:

@rashidi1

You call arrows unrealistic.. while many users will say the same thing about stuff like 4-2-4, super keepers, shot on target/goal ratio, you know.

"AI in FM2008 is easy to beat", yeah right. Look at other topics, everyone are usually like "AI is cheating", "this game is too hard" etc.

So, either you or a lot of people are wrong, myself included. You cannot really expect a proper discussion about an AMC-arrow being an exploit with people thinking like that, right? What if it happens only in your game(s)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even SI reconise it as a ME exploit....so try again little fella

Wow, I don't even remember the last time I've been called "little"

I never said there is absolutely no such thing as an exploit like that. I just stated that it MIGHT exist or not, and without proper proof you can't really expect a lot of people to take part in a discussion like this, since they think differently. Am I wrong?

Yes, because the exploits have been shown to SI and the have acknowledged it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Wow, I don't even remember the last time I've been called "little"

I never said there is absolutely no such thing as an exploit like that. I just stated that it MIGHT exist or not, and without proper proof you can't really expect a lot of people to take part in a discussion like this, since they think differently. Am I wrong? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes you are. Because SI admitted it, so no additional proof needed . That's said, you are absolutely entitled to have your own opinion whether it's only fair to have it in the game, or it should be removed. Though I suspect that our opinion does not matter as it will be fixed anyway.

IIRC wwfan in one of his threads provided a very nice classification of tactical approach. In short, you can either build a tactic based on football knowledge only, or try to find ME weakness and don't bother if your tactic looks crazy. The second approach is absolutely fine, but the problem is that if such an exploit exists, then fun may disappear as you start to win everything no matter what(a-la Diablo).

The AMC exploit is obviously not exactly a Diablo type as it does not guarantee you winning, but it seems a bit unrealistic. So the discussion is about whether arrows should be kept as they are now, or their meaning should be reconsidered.