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deserter
08-04-2010, 11:49
I've been thinking about the 3d engine.
When it was introduced, it was SI's own work from scratch. Still is of course.
I'm not sure if this was the right approach. I mean the engine is okay, but wouldn't it be possible to form a co-operative workshop between some other game's developers.
You know, work together with, say, Konami's PES devs or EA's Fifa crew?
Trade some of the FM's match engine AI for their more sophisticated 3d engine with the fancy animations and all.
Was this kind of approach considered, and why couldn't it happen - it interests me. :)

Imagine it. PES with improved AI and FM with great 3d view! A win-win for me!


Anyways, any outline on what the 3d engine is heading towards? Add a whole lot of everything, is it? ;)

sambos
08-04-2010, 11:54
The match engine is the same whether its 2d or 3d apparently. Its just you can visualise it differently.I agree that some collaboration with a specialist could be a great leap forward for the graphical effects of the match engine because it simply is a prehistoric view in modern gaming.

Nr. 9
08-04-2010, 11:59
I think SI can make a very nice 3D engine if they wanted too. Problem is that the match engine consumes a lot of your computers resources. If you add a heavy graphics engine you would need a very powerful computer to run the game.

dave byrd
08-04-2010, 11:59
Yeah i'm dreaming of the day SI team up with Konami and we can have the PES match engine!

dave byrd
08-04-2010, 12:00
I think SI can make a very nice 3D engine if they wanted too. Problem is that the match engine consumes a lot of your computers resources. If you add a heavy graphics engine you would need a very powerful computer to run the game.

True, but as in the current game you can turn the match engine off completely if you wish. They would always have this option so people on lower spec machimes could still play.

Eles Gergo
08-04-2010, 12:00
Imagine it. PES with improved AI and FM with great 3d view! A win-win for me!




Technology is advancing every week, but in my opinion we are still a good 5 or more years from seeing a good 3d engine in fm.

But i can't see EA Sports or Konami to sell their graphics to SI unless they buy the company which I know for certain will ruin this game (thinking of EA )

dave byrd
08-04-2010, 12:02
Technology is advancing every week, but in my opinion we are still a good 5 or more years from seeing a good 3d engine in fm.

But i can't see EA Sports or Konami to sell their graphics to SI unless they buy the company which I know for certain will ruin this game (thinking of EA )

Konami could licence it to SI. Win win for both i think.

Brian Shanahan
08-04-2010, 12:08
Konami could licence it to SI. Win win for both i think.

But Konami don't even allow SI to use the data for Japan currently, which they have the rights to.
While the 3D representation of the match engine is pretty basic, it only needs a few small things for it to be very good for what is needed. The main thing I can think of is more animations for the different types of foul (sometimes I cant tell whether it's an accidentalk collision or a two-footed scythe form the animation).
Remember flashy graphics do not a good game make, but they do take a lot of power (excluding a lot of computers even only 2 years old).

drmanley
08-04-2010, 12:08
Problem is that there is very little benefit from a business perspective. The amount of additional copies sold wouldn't get any where near the cost of getting another party involved or they would have done it already. So the price of the game would have to go up or costs (development in other areas of the game) would have to be severely curtailed. Also it would result in SI losing some control over the game. Where there's collaboration there always has to be compromise.

It would be great to see but in reality it's just not practical.

sambos
08-04-2010, 12:25
Problem is that there is very little benefit from a business perspective. The amount of additional copies sold wouldn't get any where near the cost of getting another party involved or they would have done it already. So the price of the game would have to go up or costs (development in other areas of the game) would have to be severely curtailed. Also it would result in SI losing some control over the game. Where there's collaboration there always has to be compromise.

It would be great to see but in reality it's just not practical.

Its possible in the future, they hired a permanent graphics designer this year so hopefully they can build on this in the not too distant future. Its one part of the game that has huge future potential.

dafuge
08-04-2010, 12:29
For me, FM/CM has never been about flashy graphics, it has been about great data and addictive gameplay.

I've not got anything against improved graphics, but they won't really add a lot to the game for me.

drmanley
08-04-2010, 12:30
Its possible in the future, they hired a permanent graphics designer this year so hopefully they can build on this in the not too distant future. Its one part of the game that has huge future potential.

I agree it can (and will) improve in future versions but that it will be down this route (hiring design staff) so that any graphics are designed specifically and therefore tailored to FM as opposed to purchasing or licensing someone else's product and tailoring FM to fit.

Cougar2010
08-04-2010, 12:36
Just to clarify as some people seem confused.

There is no such thing as a "3D match engine"

The match engine is the match engine. 3D graphics are just one way that FM represents the match engine to the user.

For those that want PES or FIFA graphics, what makes you think their graphics are even compatible with the FM match engine?

dave byrd
08-04-2010, 12:40
Just to clarify as some people seem confused.

For those that want PES or FIFA graphics, what makes you think their graphics are even compatible with the FM match engine?

Nothing makes me think that they would be and i'm sure most are aware that the graphics are simply a representation of the match engine. The point i made was that i'd love it if the graphics used were from PES, didn't really think that deeply into the practicalities of implementing this.

UKRocketSoldier
08-04-2010, 15:43
Isn't the 3D match view based on Virtua Striker? And didn't the team that made that game help them?

pooman2279
08-04-2010, 16:55
Problem with doing this is simple: FM is designed to work relatively well with most modern Computers. In fact one of the selling points of the game is that even crappy old laptops can run it to some degree. Doing this kind of thing would effectively cut off part of SI's market and they would feel like they are being punished for not having top of the range PC's.

dave byrd
08-04-2010, 17:05
Problem with doing this is simple: FM is designed to work relatively well with most modern Computers. In fact one of the selling points of the game is that even crappy old laptops can run it to some degree. Doing this kind of thing would effectively cut off part of SI's market and they would feel like they are being punished for not having top of the range PC's.

No it wouldn't. As in the current game you can turn the match engine off completely if you wish. They would always have this option so people on lower spec machimes could still play.

nev147
08-04-2010, 20:21
No it wouldn't. As in the current game you can turn the match engine off completely if you wish. They would always have this option so people on lower spec machimes could still play.

Yes but as we see with each patch there are like 1001 fixes to do with the 3-D aspect of the game and for my liking there is too much time from SI in perfecting something, resulting in other areas of the game that are way behind the times or have not been looked into in many years - but I suppose if they got outside help then maybe SI would not have to worry about the 3-D as much and not spend so much time on the 3-D and more on other aspects.

And what dafuge said - FM is not about 'flashy graphics' its more the game play/features/data I could not agree more.

And what drmanley said - SI want to keep it all in house and from a financial viewpoint it would cost far too much to warrant it.

And as FM is pretty graphical intensive- having read a few threads about graphics cards recently and this would just go further one way to a select group who have 'super machines' yes you dont have to but why should the minority become the majority - they should aim for something that can be benefitted by everyone and not a select few.

Vermundr
08-04-2010, 20:24
They will get there. The CM match engine is pretty good and fluid just watch some CM2010 videos. I'll be realy happy for FM to reach that level of visual/feel.

Recury
08-04-2010, 20:29
Isn't the 3D match view based on Virtua Striker? And didn't the team that made that game help them?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you're right. At least the player animations are from it.

anagain
08-04-2010, 20:33
I really don't see a need for change. FM looks splendid as it is. I think it all looks very nice and makes matches enjoyable to watch.

Football Manager's ethos was never about employing flashy graphics, but about being the most complete and realistic sim out there.

The flashy graphics football management market has been covered by games such as FIFA Manager. FM have the market sealed for realism and depth so why would sell those achievements in order to have a flashy looking game that isn't needed? They'd be losing their space in the games community.

anagain
08-04-2010, 20:41
They will get there. The CM match engine is pretty good and fluid just watch some CM2010 videos. I'll be realy happy for FM to reach that level of visual/feel.

CM's graphics are horrid. The way players move is like something out of a 90's 2D scrolling platformer. It's just horrific. It's over the top and unrealistic stuff done for flashiness, and possibly to try and get ahead of FM via the people who rate looks over depth.

Can you really say this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7dik3IfQvs&feature=related) looks better tham FM's match engine?

Note the way the player moves when stopping the ball going out for a throw in the first few seconds of the clip. Why does he throw his arms up in the air like that? It just looks stupid to me. There's arms flailing everywhere and legs stretch out as far as they will go even when a player passes a ball 2 foot. That just don't happen.

deserter
09-04-2010, 10:03
Just to clarify as some people seem confused.

There is no such thing as a "3D match engine"

The match engine is the match engine. 3D graphics are just one way that FM represents the match engine to the user.

For those that want PES or FIFA graphics, what makes you think their graphics are even compatible with the FM match engine?

Sure.
I'd argue for 3d engine though. Having graphics isn't enough - you need an engine to run them as well. Naturally you need an interface between the two engines for it to work.
Same would apply to any 3d engine.

sambos
09-04-2010, 11:47
CM's graphics are horrid. The way players move is like something out of a 90's 2D scrolling platformer. It's just horrific. It's over the top and unrealistic stuff done for flashiness, and possibly to try and get ahead of FM via the people who rate looks over depth.

Can you really say this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7dik3IfQvs&feature=related) looks better tham FM's match engine?

Note the way the player moves when stopping the ball going out for a throw in the first few seconds of the clip. Why does he throw his arms up in the air like that? It just looks stupid to me. There's arms flailing everywhere and legs stretch out as far as they will go even when a player passes a ball 2 foot. That just don't happen.

That video is so funny i have never seen such retardation in defense since rafael the other night. FM is streets ahead match engine-wise although the graphics look pretty good in the CM video. Still not enough to tempt me away!!

fabioke
10-04-2010, 13:35
First of all I like to say that when the dots came out I wasn't a real fan either. The graphics are fine only the animations aren't plenty enough. The game needs to be more fluid and The crowd needs a revamp.

I have studied graphic design and trust me its not that hard to make a good crowd. There are more animations needed for tackling, dribbling, passing (crossing) and scoring. The game doesn't need new features it just needs a quality update on the animations and on the manager AI.

TJJESSE
10-04-2010, 16:19
as much as i will love to agree i have to say no. I have to buy a new laptop for my 3d ME to run better than it is know and thats with SI graphics no offence. Just imagine if si ever did team up with ea or konami for a new match engine probably about 4/10 people 3d match engine will work.

aggressive minor
10-04-2010, 16:28
I prefer text, or if needed, 2D. I wonder if anyone else does?

Bojan11
10-04-2010, 22:55
I prefer text, or if needed, 2D. I wonder if anyone else does?

its a different game mate if you watch it in only commentry so i do, if you play solid compact football it never works in 3d change to only commentry then bam it works..

is there any proof of the game simulating the matches differently from 3d and only commentry does anyone know?

Thedore
10-04-2010, 23:16
This game is a simulator that doesnt require fancy GFX to work. Thus theres no point in it.

css_matt
10-04-2010, 23:43
Its not just about making it eye candy.

I want the improvements so that you can properly want the game and analyse movements better. You cant even really see a players flair and technique combine to outskill an opponent because the poor engine.

People say it is not possible but it clearly is. It shouldnt take much processing because there are far more advanced graphical games than FM will ever be. But FM engine looks years behind where it should be..

Mojby
11-04-2010, 00:11
CM's graphics are horrid. The way players move is like something out of a 90's 2D scrolling platformer. It's just horrific. It's over the top and unrealistic stuff done for flashiness, and possibly to try and get ahead of FM via the people who rate looks over depth.

Can you really say this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7dik3IfQvs&feature=related) looks better tham FM's match engine?

Note the way the player moves when stopping the ball going out for a throw in the first few seconds of the clip. Why does he throw his arms up in the air like that? It just looks stupid to me. There's arms flailing everywhere and legs stretch out as far as they will go even when a player passes a ball 2 foot. That just don't happen.

I agree with this. CM2010 is awful compared to FM2010. I bought CM2010 for 2.51 expecting the ME to be far superior to FM2010. When FM2010 came out I was dissapointed with CM2010 and was glad I spent a minimal amount of money and time on the game.

anagain
11-04-2010, 02:05
is there any proof of the game simulating the matches differently from 3d and only commentry does anyone know?

It doesn't. The match engine is one and only and the commentary, 2D and 3D are representations of the match engine. Why would you think there would be a different match engine for each?


I want the improvements so that you can properly want the game and analyse movements better. You cant even really see a players flair and technique combine to outskill an opponent because the poor engine.

I disagree hugely. It sounds like you are overly impressed with flashy graphics. Oh, I understand they can make an impact in many a game, and I too prefer an action game with glorious graphics. I can, and do, live without in many a strategy game though.

I class FM as a simulation that has an aspect of strategy to it and don't see why graphics are important. They never have been before.

I can tell when a player has been clever enough to knock a ball past an opponent down the wings because I see it time and time again. I've seen players play a lovely through ball or switch the ball from flank to flank. I've seen intricate one-twos on the edge of the area and even seen a player attempt a cheeky back heel on the edge of the six yard box. Likewise, I can tell when they've done wrong.

Flair and technique is obviously on show. You're not looking hard enough. Eother that or you're just too assuming that beautiful graphics are the only thing that shows stuff off. You're blinkered.