PDA

View Full Version : Critique of FM08 transfer mechanism - will it ever change?



Pages : [1] 2

Ched
01-12-2007, 12:50
Firstly, the paragraph to stop half the moans that i will get for having the audacity to complain:

- I appreciate it is hard to make a game
- I appreciate that FM08 is the best management game available
- I appreciate that i personally am unable to produce a better game
- I appreciate that the game is "playable" before i upset anybody from sega by suggesting otherwise
- I appreciate that the game is "more realistic than ever"
- and lastly i do actually think the game is good

So the point of this thread? I am increasingly feeling frustrated with how the game handles transfers and contracts, and more to the point, how this aspect of the game has not been improved (dramatically at least) in any of the recent incarnations of fm.

My question: do the current buyers of FM think that new features such as "board confidence" and "match flow" are more important than fixing the existing faults?

For those wondering what has annoyed me enough to complain i will list what i feel to be the major faults with the FM transfer mechanics and cite examples, i will not be posting screen shots, so don't bother asking, either believe me, try it yourself, or don't bother posting, i'm not going to waste more of my time pandering to the wishes of pedants.

1) Fault number one, The negotiation process. As far as i'm aware this has been in FM for quite some time. For example, i bid £20m for a player, the AI asks for £28m, i therefore bid £25m, the AI asks for £30m, i tihnk they're playing hardball so i decide that the original £28m wasn't that bad so bid £28m, the AI asks for £35m. I cancel the transfer, wait a day, and enquire, the AI asks for £18m. If there is anybody that feels that this is realistic please feel free to step forward.
Now i acknowledge that this has improved for FM08, but it is still far too common an occurance for my liking.

2) AI enquiries. AI makes an enquiry for one of my players, i tell him how much i want, the AI says no thanks. The next week, the AI asks how much for a player, i tell him the same number, the AI says no thanks...repeat indefinitely. This is comical. Firstly, why does the AI have to enquire when i have purposefully set an acceptable value? Secondly, why does the AI think the value will drop every 2 days?

3) AI valuation of players. User is chelsea, AI as AC makes a bid for cech of 12.5m, truly comical, the player is happy, being used regularly and is "indespensible to the club", similarly the club is in no sort of financial trouble, so why does the AI think this is in any way acceptable? So as to test this, i changed it so the user was AC, i made a bid of 12.5m for cech, no prizes for guessing what happened, bid rejected, which leads me to my point, why does the AI appear to think the user has a lower valuation of players than the AI?

4) Contracts. I am £115kp/w under my wage budget, i try signging a player, he asks for £35kp/w the board limit the wage to £30kp/w....why oh why oh why, the club is in a fantastic financial position, the player is substantially better than those in my teams, and there are players with over £50kp/w in my team, so why is the board preventing me form using my wage budget? Similarly, in a different save, for a player that was willing to sign for me i was allowed to offer him £25kp/w, for a player that was not interested in signing for me i was allowed to offer him £90kp/w. When the latter wanted to sing for me i was only allowed to offer him £25kp/w, what the hell is going on????? When a player is not interested i have a sufficient budget, but when the player becomes intersted the board prevent me from offering him the wages i previously could, why does this happen???

5) Contracts - player expectations vs club rep. User is PSV, offered to loan makelele, player rejected, he would rather play in the reserves of the EPL than play in the chapions league, he had been transfer listed for 16months, had not played a single competitive game, why then did he not want to move to a club in the champions league?
Similarly, MANY cases of players turning down wage offers to move to clubs in a lower division for less money, or most hilariously to retire at the age of 23. I know this is to do with club rep, but why can't this be fixed???

6) Wonderkids. Is there some sort of "block" to prevent them from being signed for compensation only? E.g. User as chelsea, offered kroos £120kp/w he turned it down and signed for bayern for much £250p/w, i then enquired for him, bayern asked for £500k, i bid, he then accepted a contract for £1000p/w and moved to me. Why in a space of 3 days did the player go from rejecting £120kp/w to accepting £1kp/w??? He had not signed a pre contract with bayern.

7) Teams/players considering offers individually. example; User is Barce, user bid £30m + Deco for Gattuso, AI said no. AI bid £35m for deco, User accepted, User bid £25m for gattuso, AI accepted..... anybody think this is strange? The same con be applied to players and contract offers, at no point does the aI appear to consider other offers when it debates a response.

8) Selling Players I will firstly point out that boularouz (sorry for spelling) and titus bramble both found employers this summer. Why then is it not possible to sell claude makelele or wayne bridge for £0? Why do some players that would fit into most prem clubs retire aged 25? The way the AI works needs to be changed, in too many cases it is impossible to shift players, i'm not talking about getting a decent amount for them, but just getting rid.

Right, rant over. I fully acknowledge this post is long, and it will therefore plummet form these pages as most of my other threads have done, but hopefully someone from SI will notice it before then.

I just want to know why these things haven't been changed, and whether users would rather half half finished new features like the board confidence rather than fix these problems?

Note, i'm not saying board confidence was a bad idea, just that it was badly executed.

Now i know SI will have an order in which new features or fixes are tackled (a road map or whatever you may call it in the game industry) but i can only express puzzlement that borders on alarm that fixing the existing features ranks below adding new features; sure new features may draw in new customers, but i feel that the majority of long standing customers would rather many of the basic things were fixed.

Cheers

Number 7
01-12-2007, 13:20
I just sold Lulinha for £22.5m. I'm happy http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ericlw
01-12-2007, 13:20
Lots of reading and some good points

black 'n amber tiger
01-12-2007, 13:23
The problem SI have if they release FM09 and all they have done is correct what was wrong in FM08 then they are going to get slated aren't. They need to put new inovations into game with every new release, some will be popular and some won't even work correctly but they have to carry on being inovative otherwise the game will die

BigBadBri
01-12-2007, 13:24
Good post!.

fabowabo
01-12-2007, 13:27
I completely agree with all the criticisms.

Mike A
01-12-2007, 13:37
Excellent post. This happens in LLM as well (obviously with less cash involved and a severe lack of wonderkids).

Question is, when will it get sorted, if at all? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

T-Bag
01-12-2007, 13:50
Excellent post.

As it happens I was just trying to note down some of my feelings on the transfer system to make a reasoned post but you seem to have covered almost everything.

One thing which bothers me, and it has been like this for as far back as I can remember - probably even as far back as the CM3 series. You are chasing a player and the AI reject all your bids even if you are offering way over the value of the player. Then suddenly a few weeks later the AI bid the actual value of the player and it is accepted! Of course you can then bid the value of the player and get the bid accepted too. It just seems like the AI know when other AI managers are willing to sell players.

My other gripe with negotiations is when they offer you a player plus some cash. You have no interest in the player, remove him from the deal but ask for exactly the same money. They reject it despite you actually asking for less ! I know in some circumstance clubs may be borderline on their wage budget but I have had this a lot with top clubs who i'm certain have loads of cash flowing.

As for selling players, I will leave you with this statistic. I'm in 2013 and my total transfer spending is around £250,000,000. My total transfer income is £4,100,000. I think i've managed to sell 3 players for money in 7 seasons. I can't even give, GOOD players away, I just don't understand why the AI wont look at them. For me this is worse than it has ever been in FM08. I honestly haven't even had a bid for one of my first team players in 7 seasons ! I had a couple of enquiries a couple of seasons back but that is it. My players are not bad, I have won the PL etc.

Even so far into the game the AI teams are almost the same as at the start of the games, none of them seem to be buying anyone. Occasionally they make a big signing but they never seem to sign any cover, fringe players or potential players.

Another issue is players seem perfectly happy to rot in a teams reserves for 3 years rather than join another club, rejecting contracts because they want "higher appearance fees" etc

To move forward there needs to be significant improvement in the way negotiations work, the transfer market needs a massive increase in activity.

I'm really worried for the future of FM. So much has stagnated, nothing at all has moved forward since the last version. Buying and selling players should be at the forefront of any management game yet it is one of the poorest areas.

chopo
01-12-2007, 13:51
The first two points are especially annoying, spot on.

ivod
01-12-2007, 13:57
I agree with all the points you made buddy.

StickyMonkey
01-12-2007, 14:02
Another issue is players seem perfectly happy to rot in a teams reserves for 3 years rather than join another club, rejecting contracts because they want "higher appearance fees" etc

Even worse after a year of rotting in the reserves of an elite club, transfer listed by request due to a lack of first team opportunities, and yet they refuse a transfer to a team in the same division, on the same wages, because they feel it would be a step backward in their careers. Don't worry lad, Real will be bidding on you any day now, just keep plugging away in the reserves, you're sure to get noticed there.

VonBlade
01-12-2007, 14:33
Points 1,2,4,5 and 8 are so abhorrent as to be priority numero uno for FM09.

More than fixing confidence. More (just) than the hilariously inadequate media engine. More than the team reputation being infinitely more important than player ability.

Quality post, well written. I'd say SortitoutSI, but they clearly wont so...

Mygel
01-12-2007, 14:39
I have seen many silly threads about the game and how it works. Most of them are clearly as a result of people not understanding simple parts of the game e.g. tactics.

But this points made is really valid and they have been so for at least as long as I can remember in this series. A new games comes out every year with small new features, but the main flaw is never being fixed. That flaw is the so-called negotation system and the transfers. It is so-called as there is in fact no negotation. AI ask what the price of the player is, you give AI a realistic price offer, AI says no thanks and do not come back again. I mean, IRL (as this is a simulation) the enquiring club would probably have given a counter offer saying this is how much we are ready to pay. Selling club changes offer and the buying club comes back with counter offer, etc. This does not exist in FM and has never existed, which is the amazing part. No improvement is ever made on one of the most exiting parts in the game for many players.

I also can never get around to understand why a player would like to sit on the bench for a whole season instead of going to a club with less reputation, or even a league down, but which pays 5 times more in salary for just 1 season! Actually, as a simulation, I am always surprised that players would turn down contract offers that 4 - 5 times higher than their current contract and they get to be a key player. For a few very ambitious players that has a secure position in their current teams, but for most other normal players I seriously doubt that this would happen in real life.

I would also like to have anyone from SI to explain why the feature of breaking up the transfer fee in monthly payments has been in the game for so long when it serves absolutely no point under the current economic system in the game. Again, in real life it would be an excellent option and it probably could be in FM as well with a revamped economic system. But as it is now it is just ridiculous and annoying as I have to change the offer from the AI into lump sums instead. For me to offer monthly payments is just pointless as the total fee remains the same and I need to have the total amount of the fee at the time of the transfer anyway.

Again, I just can not understand why this very important feature of the game is not being worked on and revamped between the releases????? Does anyone know???

bterz
01-12-2007, 16:40
Excellent post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

One more that's been bothering me for years:
You offer a contract to a youngster. He asks for $1000 wage plus $200K signing on fee. You offer him the $1000 he wants but you can now only offer him 50K signing on fee. He rejects you. In order to be able to give him 200K you must offer him $4000 in wages. It doesn't matter if you're Real Madrid and have billions in the bank. It's always the same. I was forced to offer higher wages than requested hundreds of times in order to be able to offer players the requested signing on fees. I just don't see the logic in making signing on fee amounts be relative to the wage you're offering and it's been like this since the CM days.

Ched
01-12-2007, 17:19
Originally posted by bterz:
Excellent post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

One more that's been bothering me for years:
You offer a contract to a youngster. He asks for $1000 wage plus $200K signing on fee. You offer him the $1000 he wants but you can now only offer him 50K signing on fee. He rejects you. In order to be able to give him 200K you must offer him $4000 in wages. It doesn't matter if you're Real Madrid and have billions in the bank. It's always the same. I was forced to offer higher wages than requested hundreds of times in order to be able to offer players the requested signing on fees. I just don't see the logic in making signing on fee amounts be relative to the wage you're offering and it's been like this since the CM days.

dammit i knew i'd forget something that had annoyed me - this was it! Spot on. Why am i limited by what i can offer as a signing on fee? It's pathetic, granted i don't expect unlimited singing on fees (as that would just be silly) but i'm sick of (for some reason it always seems to be brazilian) teenagers asking for large signing on fees which force me to increase the weekly wage.

MSCCG
01-12-2007, 17:38
I have a solution for the first problem, basically you just ignore the AI and keep offering lower fees but increasing by a reasonable amount each time. Many times they will accept eventually. Just think of the AI offering as them screwing with you so you don't buy their player.

I am having problems with selling players as well though, not just other clubs not buying them but also that the AI negotiation is crap, what they do is offer a low amount then when I ask for higher, this is what happens:

I ask for slightly higher i.e they offer 9 million I say no, I want 10 million and they quit the negotiations immediately, no "how about 9.25 million"s or "how bout a 10% next sale clause?" or "No we're definitely only giving you 9 million but Maybe we can give you a bit of bonus if he scores a couple of goals/plays a couple of internationals/amount of games"

I ask for a lot more because hes a good player i.e Milan wanted Vidic and offered 30 million, I said no I want 70 million (haha, they won't want him now...will they?) and the next offer they give me is the full 70 million non negotiable? No way is that realistic.


P.S. AI Chelsea have lots of trouble getting Makelele to leave also in the game. Problem is the transfer fees. Not good enough for top prem teams but way too expensive for lower down teams because the player themself doesn't realize they should lower their wage demands at a smaller club. When they become free agents their demands are much less, signed Kewell in second season for Middlesbrough and I realized that. He wouldn't sign with us when he was still at Middlesbrough and was demanding a salary of something like 100k but after he left the club he was very willing and also only asked for wages of around 30k.

An improvement in this game is that I have been getting some unexpected bids for players, even ones that don't get many games but are still good and the AI does realize now that the player also wants higher transfer fees for players not on the transfer market.

Newky
01-12-2007, 18:17
Another one for the list

How come your players will drop negotiations immediatley just because you try to lower their appearance fee or goal bonus by a fiver but they never seem to notice that youve changed that £3M signing on fee they wanted to £0?

andyinuk
01-12-2007, 18:30
5) is a problem which we complain a lot over the last few release now. still not fixed.

another one that miss from the list is AI accept a lower fees from other AI club than human club, regardless any other factors such as rivalry, etc

Scooby_Doo
01-12-2007, 19:01
IMO, the transfer system in FM2008 is probably the worst in the series yet. I'm also having the problem where I can't accept a negotiated price occassionally, which I'm sure is bug:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/9482076743/m/7412012253

anyone else facing this problem?

Another absolutely infuriating thing is when a player is transfer listed by request, the club has set an asking price and other AI clubs have made bids (and have had siad bids accepted), yet they will reject the bid that I've made of exactly the same value. I'm not even a rival club! Then when I submit an enquiry, the club will come back to me for the asking price and 9/10, when I go to 'view offer', it'll say 'make new offer', rather than 'accept demands'. When I submit this new offer, the offer just gets rejected all the same. I've lost out on some seriously good players over this ridiculous bug. It also never used to happen on prior FMs either.

Ackter
01-12-2007, 19:03
I'm hoping for a massive restructuring of the transfer module for 09. It's now the part of the game that's in most need of improvement.

McDoul
01-12-2007, 19:21
I guess FM live will prove a good testbed for many of these new features now, a kind of public beta.

Ackter
01-12-2007, 19:24
It won't, there's no AI managers in FML.

lonestar007
01-12-2007, 19:37
Money has to become one of the biggest factors in player contracts, not club reputation. The number of players who will not move for significantly more money is silly.

Like above; I can offer 4-5 times or more what a player is currently making only for it to be rejected. Not even close to realistic. Player could be a regular first-teamer at a top club making around 20K p/w. If another club came in and offered 80-100K p/w to be a rotation player, you bet that player would move. Unless the current club offered a similar contract the player would be gone in a heartbeat. Every time.

DeathSpawn
01-12-2007, 20:17
hi all. i must say i agree with all it has been said here however sometimes i can re-negociate transfers but its a very rare occasion. one example of those negotiations is: i ask how much they want for obefami martins, they say 18M, i say 18M for 24 months, they say 5M+13 for 2 months, i say 5M + 8M for 24 months + 5 M after X goals on league, they answer bid accepted.

here's something i noticed that helps me sell my players:

1-if i'm running less then 3 leagues it's almost impossible to sell any players so i usually run 5 big leagues.
2- as we all know the AI has access to our shortlist and so it tries to buy those players, so when the transfer system is up i make a 2nd shortlist with everyone i can put there, this will make many teams bid for those players and when the transfers take place the teams that sold their players will need new players to replace the ones that left and will bid for my players.
3-if a players is transfer listed but doesnt get any bids then loan him for a year to a team from a higher league. usually the teams that will want him on a loan are teams from the bottom of that league however it seems that league reputation has more effect then club reputation when it comes to increase player value and increase players reputation, this way your player reputation will increase aafter 1 year and maybe one team from that league will buy him next year.


as for buying players i'm finding very hard to buy any good GK, i try akinfeev,ustari,ochoa and they want to leave but clubs wont accept any offer. any other player i can usually buy him if i declared interest in themm or had praised them before making the bid, praising or declaring interest after 1st bid is useless.

DeathSpawn
01-12-2007, 20:27
i also noticed another thing when buying players, AI says it wants X millions for player, i offer X-4 M, AI answers X-2, and then i accept. going further will result in AI canceling conversations.

towerofpower
01-12-2007, 20:49
Brilliant post and I hope these things will change in the future. Especially this part gets on my nerves:



2) AI enquiries. AI makes an enquiry for one of my players, i tell him how much i want, the AI says no thanks. The next week, the AI asks how much for a player, i tell him the same number, the AI says no thanks...repeat indefinitely. This is comical. Firstly, why does the AI have to enquire when i have purposefully set an acceptable value? Secondly, why does the AI think the value will drop every 2 days?

It's way too repetive. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Same teams would keep nagging me with enquiries or same prices week after week, even if clear asking price is set.

muncherdave
01-12-2007, 23:11
Selling players is what bugs me the most but a pretty good summary of exactly where the transfer system needs improving http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Midge
01-12-2007, 23:16
The valuation of players annoy me the most. I bid upwards of £50m for a player and then the AI asks for around £90m usually so I cancell the transfer. A week later the said player moves from his club to another for less than £30m!!!! Why do they always price you out of the player and then sell him to your rival for pennies in comparison http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Im guessing its to make it harder for us.

DJ
01-12-2007, 23:38
Well worded OP, not a rant, points well made and I agree that in general, the 'intelligence' of the AI regarding transfers, wages and negociations needs a good kick in the arse.

What I don't agree with is the suggestion that this should be done to the detriment of developing new features.

I want both http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I honestly don't think that the two have an impact on one another. Not to mention necessary: imagine the outrage if FM09 comes and SI say 'no new features, we've spent a year tweaking xyz'. The number of threads saying 'I ain't paying 25 squid for no update that should be free' would be quite large http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mygel
01-12-2007, 23:54
Another thing that needs to be looked into is the loan system. It is amazing that lower clubs do not rush in to see what the deal is on loanlisted players in top clubs. IRL smaller clubs would at least check with the club to see what kind of deal the loan would involve. If the top club would pay the wages, then I do not think any smaller club would not try to get the loanlisted players.

As it is now, my players can stay loanlisted for a whole season without a single club at least checking on how the loan deal would look like.

Booooooom
02-12-2007, 01:51
Good points there Ched.

IIRC in FM6 I didn't have any problems with transfers and I was actually good at buying players cheaper in the short run. But now, in FM8, it's just as Ched says. And buying players is very expensive in the game as well.
Small clubs in countries like Greece eg won't sell their players for 3m, which is weird, coz players in Greece irl move to big clubs for less than 2m for sure. Only rare examples of over 3m exist.(i'm talking about a transfer from a Greek club to another Greek club, as I usually dedicate most of my playing time managing a Greek club)

bearsy
02-12-2007, 02:15
I doubt we'll ever get a reply from SI on this. I, along with MANY others, have been moaning about this for years and have little response from SI. I personally would be delighted to get FM09 exactly the same as FM08, except for a new transfer system and AI intelligence!

Ched
02-12-2007, 03:02
Originally posted by DJ:
Well worded OP, not a rant, points well made and I agree that in general, the 'intelligence' of the AI regarding transfers, wages and negociations needs a good kick in the arse.

What I don't agree with is the suggestion that this should be done to the detriment of developing new features.

I want both http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I honestly don't think that the two have an impact on one another. Not to mention necessary: imagine the outrage if FM09 comes and SI say 'no new features, we've spent a year tweaking xyz'. The number of threads saying 'I ain't paying 25 squid for no update that should be free' would be quite large http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I remember cm01/02 (i think it was that one) where it was just a data update and and few bug fixes compared to the previous CM, and they released it for 15 or 20 quid, i'd quite happily accept this for fm09 if they just fixed existing issues, and let them work on new features for fm10, but i suspect the potential loss of new customers will cause SI to add half finished new features rather than fix the existing ones. a pity realy.

T-Bag
02-12-2007, 03:22
The amazing thing about this thread is not one person (yet!) has come in and said "no you are wrong, the transfer system is brilliant". I think that speaks volumes about the feeling towards the current system.

Bongo-Bongo
02-12-2007, 03:40
1) One of the biggest problems in the game for me. It seems that the AI has no memory of what happened before hand. If this is the case, then this needs to be looked at.

2) Same as 1), the AI needs a memory. And why are they completley incapable of negotiating when they are buying a player.

3) Another massive floor in the transfer system. Clubs need to rate players on their age, and squad status. When I enquire about a 26 year old valued at £8m, with a squad status of rotation, I don't expect to be tolf the club want £35m for him. That would be unrealistic even if he was a Key Player. Teams need to value players based around their value to the team, ie, Key Players, First Team, Hot Prospects - 2-3 times their value. Rotation, Decent Youngsters - twice their value at the very most, generally nearer the players value. Backup, Not Needed - sell for around players value or less.

4) I'm in two minds over this. It is frustrating when the player wants just a couple thousand more then you are allowed to offer him, but, some clubs like to keep very tight control over their finances. Whats needed here is the ability to talk to the chairman and ask him if he will allow us to pay the player higher then what he is presently allowing us.

5) Never experienced this myself.

6) This seems to have something to do with youth contracts. Before signing a pre-contract or professional contract the player wouldn't move to your club for all the money in the world, but as soon as this has been signed, he'll move to you for just a couple hundred. This doesn't seem to be the case if the club is much less reputable though.

7) No experince of this.

8) This was a problem in FM07, but I haven't found it to be in FM08. In fact, I'd say I'm finding it a bit too easy to sell transfer listed players for their value or higher. Sissoko was valued at £4.8m, I transfer listed him and set his value at £7.25m and several clubs offered this. Only a couple clubs had the sense to negotiate the offer in search of a better deal (which, again, shows a lack of sense from the AI).

One thing I would like to add is the lack of sense the AI has over the players it buys and the control over the squad. On FM07, I saw Arsenal with three first team goalies. When the transfer window opened, they bought another, yet failed to transfer list any of these, so in their first team, they had four goalies, two of which, were likely never to be used. I hoped this would be improved for FM08, but it seems it hasn't. In the first game I played. Portsmouth had six strikers, yet were only playing one up front. Only two were playing regularly, two were playing occassionally (mainly sub appearences) and two had yet the other two failed to play a single game throughout the season, yet none of the ever found there way onto the transfer list.

McDoul
02-12-2007, 07:11
Originally posted by T-Bag:
The amazing thing about this thread is not one person (yet!) has come in and said "no you are wrong, the transfer system is brilliant". I think that speaks volumes about the feeling towards the current system.

My concern there is that a group of us want realistic transfers at realistic levels of churn and frequence, and another group want to be able to buy everyone they choose.

It's going to be difficult for SI, althought welcomed, to create something more realistic without upsetting the people who feel they should be able to sell everyone for loads and buy everyone regardless of cost.

kennec
02-12-2007, 07:15
transfers and tactics should always be most important in fotnall manager sim.

stuff like media,match flow,teamtalks,confidence,advicer should be long down before the transfers and tactics.

Mygel
02-12-2007, 07:34
Adding again to the list - players deciding that they are not interested before they have even seen the offer. Wouldn't it make sense for a person to first see what is offered before saying no??

r0x0r
02-12-2007, 07:47
Point 1 seems to have massively improved in FM08 to me. I actually now get teams negotiating... If too many other sides are interested, value goes up. If i'm a long bidder, they will come down to meet me half way.

TSmith91
02-12-2007, 08:41
I also dislike the fact that setting a player's transfer status to "not available for transfer" seems to make absolutely no difference to the number of teams enquiring about said player. If anything, I could swear the number of enquiring teams actually increases.

Also, I don't like how the only way to prevent a player becoming unsettled is to ask for a ridiculously high price for him from enquiring teams. This definitely wouldn't happen in real life. And what's more, the AI teams seem inable to take the hint that he's not for sale. Sometimes teams will rpeat enquiries EVERY DAY for anything up to 2 weeks, despite each time being told that he won't be leaving for less than £100million. And then, for the sole reason to **** me off, they make a bid of £0 which they FORCE me to reply to by setting a week time limit to my responce.

I'd like to see the option in FM09 to file harrassment suits against repeat-enquiring managers. Or better still, improved manager AI.

endtime
02-12-2007, 09:19
Hey, I got more:

1) Clubs (in the Icelandic league no less) buy a player for 1 million, then sell him a year later for 30k (after he played the whole season in their first team)

2) Players who have relatively low PA, but perform well because they have high values in key attributes, never attract any interest from AI clubs. On the other side of the spectrum, dipsticks who average 6.40 per season are involved in multimillion deals every year thanks to their high PA.

3) It's far too easy for semi-pro and amateur clubs to attract foreign players. As a result, after a few years all semi-pro Scottish clubs are filled almost entirely by English players (because of the different CA/PA guidelines for each league, English players will be typically better than their Scottish counterparts while demanding the same wages - a pure win scenario). The same applies for all small league - big league combination, eg. Wales - England, N. Ireland - England, Iceland - Denmark, etc.

And that "player retiring at 23" bug is simply infuriating, especially when you play as a national team manager.

Razerious
02-12-2007, 09:26
I agree with all of the problems raised in this thread.

I'm finding it hard to take the game seriously when the game economy is as inflated as it has a tendency to get after a few seasons. Top clubs are spending ludicrous sums of money for average players.

The AI doesn't seem to have a sound strategy for keeping their squads competitive, so I'm ending up leading the race with no one ever getting competitive (because they're signing **** players for most of their transfer budget, not signing enough backup and squad players, not signing players for the positions where they are weaker than me)

Strips me of any enjoyment after building up a first class team. I still want a challenge! Winning everything with ease gets boring after a while...

Razerious
02-12-2007, 09:28
Oops, was a bit quick on the post button there.

The censored word in my previous post can be replaced by "bad".

"not signing players for the positions where they are weaker than me" <- I actually meant "not signing players in areas where they are weak"

Sorry about that...

Ched
02-12-2007, 09:59
Originally posted by Mygel:
Adding again to the list - players deciding that they are not interested before they have even seen the offer. Wouldn't it make sense for a person to first see what is offered before saying no??

i think this is just a side effect of players ignoring you because of the club or leagues (often marginally) lower reputation, but it's still very silly.

Mygel
02-12-2007, 10:51
Originally posted by Ched:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mygel:
Adding again to the list - players deciding that they are not interested before they have even seen the offer. Wouldn't it make sense for a person to first see what is offered before saying no??

i think this is just a side effect of players ignoring you because of the club or leagues (often marginally) lower reputation, but it's still very silly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it is the reason. But, as you said, it is silly that they have already made the decision without seeing the offer. If you offer a 1 billion p they would still say no before you even mentioned what you offered. Very unrealistic and it must be quite easy to fix in the game.

Fantazm
02-12-2007, 12:54
Didn't fix it last year, didn't fix it this year, probably won't fix it next year.

To be honest this has been my #1 gripe about the game for a while now. It's practically impossible sometimes to sell your reserves unless you sell them for about a grand, you usually have to pay at least 4-5x a player's worth to buy him.

Something else I've noticed this year is that I'll try and offer out my young promising players out on loan to get some 1st team experience (making sure they're marked as 'eligible for loan') and nobody bothers offering. The game helpfully tells me that transfer listing them might help. I DON'T WANT TO BLOODY SELL THEM!!!!!

Unlike a lot of people I don't think this edition of the game is bad at all, but I am quite ****ed off that this is still an issue.

Starr_Man5
02-12-2007, 13:28
To the OP: http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Bravo, mate. Well said.

Sir_Liam
02-12-2007, 13:36
The transfer system is flawed in a lot of ways and I think I agree with everything said so far.

Number 1 in the original post is the main annoyance for me. A couple of hours ago when playing I had this sort of scenario, but before it got to the stage where the AI was demanding £20m for their player whose valued at £1-1.5m I just accepted their demands with the 40% sell-on clause, as I simply couldn't be bothered with a summer long saga. I always get the impression that the AI would rather receive £1m + a 40% sell-on clause for a player, than £20m up front, and considering the player in question earlier will never transfer for £20m, that is ridiculous, and was an obvious flaw on the last game as well.

AI enquiries are also extremely repetitive and silly. I have a very promising left back who has attracted a lot of interest, and so I get a lot of enquiries. I just reject them all though as he's on a 5-year deal and is happy, and so I don't need to sell. That doesn't stop the same teams coming back the next week with an identical enquiry/bid though. The AI should be able to realise that they've not long made an enquiry for a player, and therefore if they're going to do it again it has to be a bid, or an improved offer.

Players turning down first team football because of the length of contract is also annoying, especially when you're trying to get rid of a player. On the last game there were several occasions when a player I had had 1 year left on his contract, but he refused to move because of the length other teams were offering, even though he'd play first team football and wouldn't be on my horrible punishing training schedule I have for players I hate in my team. Even when you fined them for no reason they'd still stay put, and would end up being released and with no club at all.

Finally there's the issue of players retiring too early, despite their obvious talent. I was playing with Hammerfest on FM07 and I remember there being this teenage Finnish striker with 7 star potential (I was a top Norwegian Premier Division side), who refused to sign for me, even though I was the only club interested (Why aren't other clubs interested in such a good player?), and I offered him a very generous contract. He went on to retire aged about 18 or 19, after deciding a very large salary was not for him. I somehow doubt he had a job earning anywhere near that amount lined up in his next career.

I also played with New Zealand on FM2006, where every year there'd be atleast one or two of my squad members who'd get released, and wouldn't be signed by anyone. The way I got around it was by adding a manager to an Australian club side (I played no club football on that save and I only loaded the Australian league as you need a league loaded) and signing them there, just so they'd stay in the game. I never ever cheat on FM, but I had to there, because it would have eliminated all fun if I didn't step in and do something. These players weren't world class, but some of them were good enough for the A-League, and the rest would have done very well in the New Zealand Championship. Also on that save I was annoyed by the way very talented New Zealanders who played in New Zealand were sometimes completely ignored, and never left their home country, therefore never becoming pro.

So yes, the transfer system needs a complete revamp. Anybody who disagrees isn't playing FM.

DMaster2
02-12-2007, 14:11
Great topic!!!
This year SI HAVE to completly rebuilt the transfer/contract system.
1) Why there is the option for human manager to loan a player with a buy price clause when it's completly useless at the moment? (I still have to manage one of them successfully nor the AI do this...).
2) As i said in another topic in Italy co-ownership is the main form of transfer (this summer were discussed over 350 co-ownership and 50 more were created this year...) yet it happen in very few occasion in FM2008

3) Straight swap of player or swap with fee of player between clubs is the second form of transfer in Italy (except for the four top clubs) yet i see it 2 times in 4 year of savegame...and even when i manage in premiership and load italian league it doesnt happen...very realistic http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ched
02-12-2007, 17:30
Originally posted by Fantazm:
Didn't fix it last year, didn't fix it this year, probably won't fix it next year.



i have a horrible feeling you're going to be right http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I'm just praying for a response fomr SI sometime this week to allay my fears.

Mygel
03-12-2007, 05:06
I agree. I think the flaws in the transfer systems is probably well-known to SI games as it has been like this for years. As some one said further up, if you do not see the unrealism in the system then I doubt that the person is playing FM and/or have any idea how transfers and negotations work IRL.

Let us just hope that they one day sit down and realise that maybe we should spend some hours to go through the basic elements of the game to see if they work.

Flash Funk
03-12-2007, 07:54
Spot on!

I've been searching for an existing thread to rant in about these topics but you've hit every nail in the head so there isn't much I can say on the topic.

I do think that the transfer mechanism is better this year than in FM07, where it was fantastically flawed. (My worst example being Newcastle rejecting a £15m bid for Shay Given from User Man Utd, only to accept £2.5m from AI EVerton a day or two later, and rejecting my subsenquent £2.5m bid because "there are other interested teams and they dont want to be rushed into any decisions". Bollox to that.


So far in FM08 the worst instances I have noticed are User Atletico being offered Cesar Delgado for £1.7m by Barcelona, only to have the bid rejected as 5 other teams have £1.7m bids accepted, he subsequently moved to Real Madrid.
More annoying however is my good yet no longer needed players languishing in my reserves for 2 years while teams continually refuse to meet their asking price of £0. This can be put down to them not playing for a while but as Requelme has recently proved, their is no substitute for talent. As such, you would imagine the likes of Hargreaves, Ottl & Bolzoni would be good enough to receive bids of £0.

aenariel
03-12-2007, 08:41
http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Excellent post.

May I add to this discussion a small comment:

- Why do those players who retire at the age of 21/22/23 just won't ever accept any deal, and why on earth don't clubs from their home nation try to get him? I mean, players who are on free transfer and are excellent national prospects but can't get a foreign deal normally go back to where they came from intil they can attract some offers. In FM the opposite happens: they leave the national clubs, don't accpet any offer from any national teams and then simply retire...

munk
03-12-2007, 10:21
Good Post.

endtime
03-12-2007, 10:42
May I add to this discussion a small comment:

- Why do those players who retire at the age of 21/22/23 just won't ever accept any deal, and why on earth don't clubs from their home nation try to get him? I mean, players who are on free transfer and are excellent national prospects but can't get a foreign deal normally go back to where they came from intil they can attract some offers. In FM the opposite happens: they leave the national clubs, don't accpet any offer from any national teams and then simply retire...

They don't actually reject contract offers, there's just no interest whatsoever. Admittedly, I think this particular issue has improved a bit in FM2008, although it's still not good enough.

T-Bag
03-12-2007, 12:14
I haven't seen this one mentioned yet but I think it is FM08 specific.

Several times I have been offered a player by a club for £0. Often a very good player so of course I accept, then they reject the bid or ask for money! Or sometimes they offer the player for say £100k, you snap their hands off and accept. Then they come back and say they want £500k. um why bother offering him to me in the first place?

Offside
03-12-2007, 12:31
Something similar keeps happening to me. I get offered a player at a certain price and make my bid. This gets knocked back as they say other clubs are interested and they won't be pressured into a decision, yet every other clubs bid is accepted.

PhroX
03-12-2007, 15:41
Originally posted by T-Bag:
I haven't seen this one mentioned yet but I think it is FM08 specific.

Several times I have been offered a player by a club for £0. Often a very good player so of course I accept, then they reject the bid or ask for money! Or sometimes they offer the player for say £100k, you snap their hands off and accept. Then they come back and say they want £500k. um why bother offering him to me in the first place?

They're probably using the trick many players did in the past - offer a player for free in order to get intrest, then reject the bids and offer him again, this time for money. Guess the AI's leaning http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trillkott
03-12-2007, 17:06
Great post!

atonement
03-12-2007, 17:40
totally with you

i would much rather they nailed down the fundamentals of the game (match engine, transfer system) rather than waste time on superficial innovations like club captain etc

Drunk Beware
03-12-2007, 17:43
Originally posted by atonement:
totally with you

i would much rather they nailed down the fundamentals of the game (match engine, transfer system) rather than waste time on superficial innovations like club captain etc

Personally i agree with that although there are alot of people who will say there are no new features etc.. i run an esms(electronic soccer management simulation) site, and prefer to enhance the features that are already in the game than to add new features.

SL42
04-12-2007, 02:15
If you played lower leagues (or leagues in some low reputation countries), problem 5 is really a great problem, and NEVER FIXED FOR SEVERAL VERSIONS!

Some players just simply will not join the lower leagues clubs after they've been released by their original higher league clubs, then they retire after a season at age of 21. NONSENSE!

Some, though involved in the first team in seasons before, and had some steady performance (e.g. 7 goals in 30 matches in 5 consecutive seasons for a striker, 6.80 average ratings for defenders/midfielders), is released by me after promotion, because I think his ability is not enough for higher league. Surprisingly, no clubs from that league even attempted to sign the players (may be their CA and PA are too low), subsequently they again retired at age of 25 or sth. With the ability and experience to play at that level, why no clubs come for them?

The transfer system should be improved for next version to make it more realistic...(though I can't see it happen) http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

04-12-2007, 05:41
Agreed totally!
It's really rubbish. I've stop played my FM already. It's getting to annoying being ask for post match comments. It's been no comments for whole season but the AI just don't get it! Asking and asking!!!!

JAStewart
04-12-2007, 05:44
I fully agree with the original post. I have experienced all that you mention-every single point, and its frustrating.

One related transfer problem is this:

Start as a new user with Chelsea (make yourself experienced international user)
Declare interest in C.Ronaldo
What what happens.

What happens is he will be "flattered" by your interest! WRONG! That would never happen in real life.

chopper99
04-12-2007, 06:10
Good post.

I also feel the transfer system could do with an overhaul. While usable at the moment it could definitely be a lot, lot better. There have been some interesting ideas thrown up in this thread.

At this point can I just point something out. To all the people who rant on that no-one ever wants to bother with posts that criticise the game please read this one as it is proof that if a criticism is constructive and well thought it it will not only be accepted, but will hopefully generate some good discussion and in turn ideas to help improve whatever aspect of the game is being discussed.

smudger18
04-12-2007, 06:16
ok 1st season i bought aairatilo (sp) for 375 k ok i played him just 4 games entire season then i started the second season spurs enquired and i ask 19.5 mill they accepted !!!!! yes i know on 07 you couldnt sell a player but this is stupid 19.5 mill for a player who only played 4 games ???

sgw
04-12-2007, 06:17
One minor quibble/suggesiton to add...

I'd like a different set of options when selecting a reason for accepting a loan bid. Something like "player will benefit from first team football", "player is not needed at club", "player is unsettled at club", "player is not ready for the first team".

Ched
04-12-2007, 08:38
Originally posted by Drunk Beware:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atonement:
totally with you

i would much rather they nailed down the fundamentals of the game (match engine, transfer system) rather than waste time on superficial innovations like club captain etc

Personally i agree with that although there are alot of people who will say there are no new features etc.. i run an esms(electronic soccer management simulation) site, and prefer to enhance the features that are already in the game than to add new features. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

a pity SI don't apply this line of thought to their work.

Althogh is suppose having "x y and z now fixed!" doesn't sell quite as well as having "new features!" slapped on the side of the box.

I hope i'm just being cynical, but i just get the impression that they care more about what sells rather than what actually works, i would be delighted to be proven wrong.

George Graham
04-12-2007, 08:46
Originally posted by Ched:

3) AI valuation of players. User is chelsea, AI as AC makes a bid for cech of 12.5m, truly comical, the player is happy, being used regularly and is "indespensible to the club", similarly the club is in no sort of financial trouble, so why does the AI think this is in any way acceptable? So as to test this, i changed it so the user was AC, i made a bid of 12.5m for cech, no prizes for guessing what happened, bid rejected, which leads me to my point, why does the AI appear to think the user has a lower valuation of players than the AI?



Great post, but 3) is the one that shouldve been fixed this year- as imo its the most blatent and annoying flaw in the transfer system.

cabello
04-12-2007, 08:57
Good post, OP!!! I tend to ignore these as part of the quirks of playing FM but it would be excellent if we could have a reply from SI.

The post has already been alive for 4 days. Let's keep this thread alive till we get a reply.

alutac13
04-12-2007, 08:59
Originally posted by Flash Funk:
Spot on!

I've been searching for an existing thread to rant in about these topics but you've hit every nail in the head so there isn't much I can say on the topic.

I do think that the transfer mechanism is better this year than in FM07, where it was fantastically flawed. (My worst example being Newcastle rejecting a £15m bid for Shay Given from User Man Utd, only to accept £2.5m from AI EVerton a day or two later, and rejecting my subsenquent £2.5m bid because "there are other interested teams and they dont want to be rushed into any decisions". Bollox to that.


So far in FM08 the worst instances I have noticed are User Atletico being offered Cesar Delgado for £1.7m by Barcelona, only to have the bid rejected as 5 other teams have £1.7m bids accepted, he subsequently moved to Real Madrid.
More annoying however is my good yet no longer needed players languishing in my reserves for 2 years while teams continually refuse to meet their asking price of £0. This can be put down to them not playing for a while but as Requelme has recently proved, their is no substitute for talent. As such, you would imagine the likes of Hargreaves, Ottl & Bolzoni would be good enough to receive bids of £0.

i think this is down to the problem with players not being interested in going to lower clubs as opposed to no other clubs thinking they good enough.

rossoneri6
04-12-2007, 09:26
also what abt the case where to buy someone you need to offer 70-80% of it upfront and minimal amt in installments. In FM07 too i had it otherway. Palacio was available for 16 mil euro..and upfront i needed to give 4-5 mill...now he is avbl for 14 mill but 12 mill must be given upfront. IRL i think majority is always paid in installments. And if i have to pay 80% upfront..then i can as well pay the whole load upfront....20% in installments doesnt make sense

T-Bag
04-12-2007, 10:27
Just a little story from my game.

I'm quite a few seasons in now (2014 I think) and I noticed Kaka wasn't being played, he was 31, unhappy, wanted to leave the club and had started 2 matches in 6 months. He also had 6 sub appearances so he wasn't even making the bench most of the time.

His value was 6.5m so I made a perfectly reasonable bid of 12m. They come back and say they want 24m ! 24m for a 31 year old who they don't play, is unhappy and wants to leave and they want 3x his value ? I made a counter bid of 14m and they rejected it on the basis of him being an important first team player!

Tigr
04-12-2007, 10:42
2) AI enquiries
Speaking about that point I'd like to say the reverse situation - same player is being constantly offered to human manager several times a row, despite rejecting that offers every time. I've had it recently, when I was offered 5 times in about a week of the game time the same player. Adding to the lack of AI brains, I was playing in the league where a limit of zero non-eu players (and he was a Brazilian without second nationality yet) in squad is enforced.

Another thing which was introduced in FM08, IMHO, is a high asking price of players, transfer listed by request. In FM07 they was usually valued lower that their computed value, sometimes the asking price was the same (usually when he was very good player for the team). But in my FM08 game (created after patched), I've seen a young player (hot prospect) valued 1k pounds with asking price 65k pounds (and after I've added him on my shortlist his price went to 150k).

kslee5
04-12-2007, 11:09
i agree with the TS

but....lets put it this way
you guys can argue whatever you all want
but what can be guarantee is, SI wont do a thing to fix it

they wont fix it in a coming patch, and nor it will be fixed in fm08
so live with it

why did i say so?
coz this issue already been discuss since fm06....but till now? what had hapend....you guys see it with your eyes

Phippsy
04-12-2007, 11:18
I quite like it to be fair

Mravac Kid
04-12-2007, 12:17
Originally posted by bterz:
Excellent post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

One more that's been bothering me for years:
You offer a contract to a youngster. He asks for $1000 wage plus $200K signing on fee. You offer him the $1000 he wants but you can now only offer him 50K signing on fee. He rejects you. In order to be able to give him 200K you must offer him $4000 in wages. It doesn't matter if you're Real Madrid and have billions in the bank. It's always the same. I was forced to offer higher wages than requested hundreds of times in order to be able to offer players the requested signing on fees. I just don't see the logic in making signing on fee amounts be relative to the wage you're offering and it's been like this since the CM days.
Hmm, I never noticed this as a problem... not if my club can afford the wages asked. And if I raise the wages, I can lower the sign-on fee. Of course, the bonuses are still a pain.
And I've noticed another weird thing regarding that... I'm trying to sign a player, and I accept all his requests, just raise the duration. He rejects (because of wage too low!), but is willing to negotiate. When I click the negotiate button, he asks for the same exact deal, and doesn't indicate what he'd like to sign a year longer.

Anyway, here's my take on #4:
The board have set an amount they're willing to pay for any single player's wage, and in regular conditions refuse to go above that (though it varies with the player's reputation). However, if the player is unwilling to move to your club, and the board think he'd be a good one to sign, they will offer more wages to him, hoping it will change his mind.
It's true it should be more flexible in comparison to the club's finances, though.

The_Ultimate_Red_Devil
04-12-2007, 12:34
Definitely needs some tweaking.

You can offer x amount of money for a player and the other team will ask for a much higher amount. You offer a compromise and they want an even higher amount?! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

That's not really negotiating. Also when you search for unattached players, find one who was released recently and offer him a contract only to have him turn it down and retire 2 weeks later. At 19-ish.

I could understand if they'd been horribly injured during a match and were going to be out a year or two and needing a bunch of surgeries that they might think "wait a minute..." but when they had an ok career at another club and were let go?

bterz
04-12-2007, 13:51
Originally posted by Mravac Kid:
Hmm, I never noticed this as a problem... not if my club can afford the wages asked. And if I raise the wages, I can lower the sign-on fee. Of course, the bonuses are still a pain.

What's bothering me is the dependance of the signing on fee to the wages offered. Example:I want to offer $100 wage and $300K signing on fee because my wage structure needs to be kept down but I don't have problems with my balance. The game won't allow me to do that though. In order to be able to offer $300K sign on fee I would need to give the player $6K in wages. I find this part of the game illogical at least.

cliff7197
04-12-2007, 14:00
Re: Original Post.

Just wanted to say that apart from point 7, which I've never experienced myself, I agree with every single point you've made.

Some of these things (Like the transfer negotiation problem where the AI just keeps raising the price) have been going on for years now.

Phippsy
04-12-2007, 14:01
i like it

bterz
04-12-2007, 14:04
Originally posted by Phippsy:
i like it

What? The game? We all like it. Otherwise we wouldn't bother posting in here in order to try to make it even better. We'd be off playing some other game right now.

101east
04-12-2007, 14:16
Player called henri saivet...i offered him backup status and £8,000 a week plus 2k appearance fee + goal bonus the same...

Instead he accepts a contract offer of £55 and youngster status at a club in division 1 football in France over my offer to play in England for Arsenal?

lol? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Vroomfondel
04-12-2007, 16:20
Ched's observations are spot on - and just as was the case with the scouting module until the recent overhaul, these transfer issues have been stagnating for years and years.

If I had one thing to say to SI at this point, it would be: "The perfect is the enemy of the good. Your policy of not revising program modules until you can 'do it right' with a complete overhaul is hurting more than it is helping, at least when we talk about core modules like the transfer system. There are kluges that could fix some of these problems. They wouldn't be elegant or permanent, and they might even slow the game down a bit (Horror of Horrors!), but they would help your reputation a lot." But they won't be changing their style anytime soon. Ya get what ya get; buy it or don't buy it; we're gonna do what we're gonna do.

*shrugs*

joestriker
04-12-2007, 16:31
Great post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

2 extra issues i've found out myself and they are equally annoying.

1) Towards the end of the season I search for players with contracts about to expire. I find some real gems that are interested. I offer them contracts and offer more money than they want to secure the player. And just before he agrees to the contract, he becomes a free agent and he is no longer interested in joining. Soon no one wants him anymore, I'm now a division higher than when i first approached him, and he is still not interested. Eventually he will fade away, die and a FRED is created... what a waste

2) After winning league e.g winning championship , bids on players result in the players not being interested in joining club. Once the transfer market is open and you are officially on the prem table the players are suddenly interested in playing for you but the fee is 10x more expensive. Surely a player will understand that you've won the league and will be playing in a higher league come next season.

I guess my points are similarly linked and i'm sure there are minor tweaked stories that are similar i.e I win league two, i bid for a player in league two that is staying but he doesn't want to join me even though i'll be a level higher. Instead he only agrees to join when the transfer market is open.

joestriker
04-12-2007, 16:45
also a bug i found, i made an offer for a player with a minimum release clause. I offered the minimum release amount and it was rejected!!!??!

and the monthly repayments thing needs to be revisited. If I make an offer for a player e.g 24 million to be paid over 24 months, I have to have 24 million in the account before the deal can go through. Whats the point of having a monthly payment scheme then.

If i don't have 24 million and i make an offer for the player with repayments over 24 months, thats 1 million a month. I know I can make 1 million a month from tv rights, match day tickets, merhandising etc during the coming months. Thats why there is an option for a monthly payment scheme, but this isn't implemented in the game

The_Ultimate_Red_Devil
04-12-2007, 17:16
Originally posted by joestriker:
Great post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

2 extra issues i've found out myself and they are equally annoying.

1) Towards the end of the season I search for players with contracts about to expire. I find some real gems that are interested. I offer them contracts and offer more money than they want to secure the player. And just before he agrees to the contract, he becomes a free agent and he is no longer interested in joining. Soon no one wants him anymore, I'm now a division higher than when i first approached him, and he is still not interested. Eventually he will fade away, die and a FRED is created... what a waste

2) After winning league e.g winning championship , bids on players result in the players not being interested in joining club. Once the transfer market is open and you are officially on the prem table the players are suddenly interested in playing for you but the fee is 10x more expensive. Surely a player will understand that you've won the league and will be playing in a higher league come next season.

I guess my points are similarly linked and i'm sure there are minor tweaked stories that are similar i.e I win league two, i bid for a player in league two that is staying but he doesn't want to join me even though i'll be a level higher. Instead he only agrees to join when the transfer market is open.

Both definitely need to be looked at... http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

#2 should be easy to fix, when a team is guaranteed relegation/promotion whatever "value" is stored in RAM or temp files should be flipped to its new value (+1 promotion -1 relegation). If something happens like you go into administration and lose promotion because of it your value for "what league will they be in next season" can be instantly flipped back to what it was originally.

I'm probably not wording that as well as I could sorry.

GigsonTZ
04-12-2007, 17:43
and i also apsolutely dont understand pricing feature... I mean feature wher u put asking price for a player. eg: there are few teams intrested in signing one of my better players who is priced rg: 25 milions. and they keep sending enquieries and i set asking price 32 milions... and again they keep sending me enquiries... i apsolutley see no use for this feature. not even one


another thing that bothers me is negotiation...

there is none... in real life with negotiation you can sign player under its original value
(henry to barca case) and after what and who in rl life football determine value of the players... It is clubs and players agents not some central figure who will say Cronaldo will be walued at 40 mil and joe cole will be valued 30.. No it is the clubs who puts theyr prices

Ched
04-12-2007, 17:50
Originally posted by joestriker:
Great post http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

2 extra issues i've found out myself and they are equally annoying.

1) Towards the end of the season I search for players with contracts about to expire. I find some real gems that are interested. I offer them contracts and offer more money than they want to secure the player. And just before he agrees to the contract, he becomes a free agent and he is no longer interested in joining. Soon no one wants him anymore, I'm now a division higher than when i first approached him, and he is still not interested. Eventually he will fade away, die and a FRED is created... what a waste

2) After winning league e.g winning championship , bids on players result in the players not being interested in joining club. Once the transfer market is open and you are officially on the prem table the players are suddenly interested in playing for you but the fee is 10x more expensive. Surely a player will understand that you've won the league and will be playing in a higher league come next season.

I guess my points are similarly linked and i'm sure there are minor tweaked stories that are similar i.e I win league two, i bid for a player in league two that is staying but he doesn't want to join me even though i'll be a level higher. Instead he only agrees to join when the transfer market is open.

2 is another of the things that winds me up (which i forgot to add to the initial list), i think SI need to sort it so that the reputation increase associated with going up a div happens as soon as the player is guaranteed promotion, and that the players realise that they will be playing in a higher standard of league BEFORE the club is placed there on the league table.

Similarly it irritates me that i have to wait until the last week of june before the club set a new transfer limit. I know how much i'm going to get, but i can't spend it, and lose out on some bargains because the board are FORCED to wait until the end of june before they realise i will have more money the following season.

Still no SI response....

cabello
05-12-2007, 05:51
Any chance of an acknowledgement or a response SI?

Canabary
05-12-2007, 06:13
Originally posted by cabello:
Any chance of an acknowledgement or a response SI?

Maybe if this topic grows into a 5 page post or several annoying posts. But as of now, I doubt it.

Anyway back on topic. I agree with all of the first posters points. And I have found myself quite annoyed over another thing.

£35m transfers for unsettled players?! Excuse me but did anyone notice what Henry was sold for?
£17m, because he was unsettled, yet in game you can rarely get an unsettled player for less than his value, most of the time you have to pay twice or triple that value to get him...
I also find myself annoyed by the fact that a bunch of players on teams well bellow champions league level would demand 40m + for a player when a big club comes knocking.
Let's be honest here. If the likes of Barca, Real, ManUtd, Arsenal etc come knocking on your door to buy a talent and you are in the championship or bottom of the prem, you don't say "well sure, give us 40m for him and he's yours" that's just not realistic.
I know that this would favor the already rich and powerful, but that's how football works...

Also.... while I'm on it. The record transfer of a player is £46M and that for a player that had proved himself internationally and is rated one of the best players to ever live, arguably the best midfielder to ever live.
So it is quite unrealistic that Any club in the world would demand a whopping £70m for a player, Such as Ãguero (£70m + £20m over 12 months) and Gerrard (cost me £80m, that I got him at all is unrealistic to be honest)
Now that it seems Spanish papers have confirmed Ronaldinho's transfer to Chelsea, we'll see how much he goes for.
But 1 billion (as is the price in game) is something I very much doubt.

but yeah.. transfer system needs to be redone and you should be able to sign players for "the future" "the reserves" "the youth team".

Pad-23
05-12-2007, 06:29
The Transfers on Football manager have always infuriated me except for maybe on 2006 when transfer prices were reasonable. This year again it has become ridiculous like on 2007 where Chelsea completely ruined the game.

I think transfer fees are way to high on my game Portsmouth spent 27 million on Dean Ashton and 20 million on David Bentley in the January transfer window, in real life these players would be worth far less Ashton around 12 million and Bentley 8 million. I really struggle to strengthen my squad as well given a 14 million transfer budget in 3rd season and only managed to buy 3 players, one on a free where in real life you would be able to buy 4 maybe 5 reasonable premiership class players.

Wages have never been represented properly in the game either on any version, in real life players demand much more money e.g I signed Michael Johnson on the game for 5.5 million he only asked for 16000 a week in real life this would be closer to about 30000 a week.

Also going back to what people said about players retiring early at the ages of 23 but it is people born outside the E.U that annoy me, English players on frees will be snapped up by a club quick enough. But for example on my game this Australian wonder kid was produced with a PA in the 190's his club Sydney or something did not offer him a new contract so he was released and retired at the age of 20 what a waste of talent!!

darrkespur
05-12-2007, 07:52
Totally agree and this is a huge reason why I don't play FM anymore. The match engine this year is quite good but the problems with the transfer engine make me feel almost like an international manager - I can pay over the odds to put a player into my 'national pool' or squad, but removing a player is near impossible unless their contract runs out. It becomes simply choosing from your players rather than transferring out the players that don't suit you.

My favourite edition of the game for transfers was CM01/02, in which it was easy both to sell and buy. The AI in recent times has gone way downhill. There's no logic or memory involved. I remember playing a management game 10 years ago that had better negotiation than football manager (it wasn't amazing but it had two hands that got closer together until they met in the middle with a deal... actually that might have been theme park, but it worked!)

The AI seems to deal with other AI ok, in the main. Transfers occur and the world continues. But as soon as the AI meets the human, all that design seems to collapse. The AI will refuse to sell a high PA player not playing, and quote ridiculous sums for most players whilst your decent but unwanted players don't find clubs.

There are two key factors for me. One is that AI shouldn't be able to see the PA of players at all. Even if they can see some aspect of potential, as a player at another club it should be incredibly vague and hidden. Far more players should be bought based on performances and we should have therefore more busts just like in real life.

The second part is that AI clubs really need better shortlist creation and team management. They can select squads but they can't work out what type of player they can use? It can't be hard to write a little subroutine that analyses the AI squad, gives every player a rating at each position then works out where the team needs strengthening and where it has too many players? I'm terrible at programming but given a database of team information I could probably manage to write that kind of thing in a few months. For a team like FM's this should have been done when the engine was first built. If we can get the assistant to tell us what our best lineup is and where the weak links are, and we can get our scouts to search for players to fit that, why isn't the AI doing that too?

This is all symptomatic of one thing in FM - the AI managers seem to act very similarly no matter if they're alex ferguson or some semi-pro coach of Crawley. AI Transfer decisions should have far more relation both to their existing squad and to their league/reputation. Two relatively simple steps are missing in how an AI manager views a deal:

a) does buying this player complement my team, and once I've bought him will I need to sell anyone? if so, manager sells the worst player in that position, or the one he can do the best deal for.
b) does the player i'm selling/being offered money for benefit my team now or can I lose him? and if I sell him, can I get a decent replacement? If so, manager goes to buy a player in the same position.

This isn't rocket science and it follows a very simple computer logic tree code structure. When I play a football game, I want to buy and sell, crafting a team that suits my style. I want the AI managers around me to do the same. They might not have the same reputation or money as me but they should be trying to do their best based on that. Currently, I don't feel that way about football manager, and that's why it's not being played.

Hawshiels
05-12-2007, 07:53
This is a well constructed original post and with some of the additions of annoyances having been made to this list of frustrations, I would hope that SI would take notice and make it a high priority to fix.

How many new gamers are playing FM compared to the people like us that buy and play it every year?

I don't want to push this off topic by considering this question, but it would certainly help us to guess at which route SI are likely to take. If SI see their market as being new gamers, then they really need to pull out feature after feature to compete with the other rough and ready simulation games out there (all gimmicks and no substance). But if it is the loyal regular gamer, then they are really going to have to sort this out.

My son is 6 and loves the game but I find myself having to use FMM (sorry to admit this) to give him enough money, etc to buy the players he should really be able to sign anyway. This is hardly ideal. In fact, using FMM, you can overcome many of these issues but I shouldn't have to!

But back to topic, it would appear that there is no distinction between the really class players and the average ones. I can completely understand Milan placing a £100M value on Kaka or Barcelona placing £100M value of Messi, but the inflation on price for average players seems ridiculous. I really don't know what the purpose of the valuation of a player is any more, because:

- I don't think I've ever been able to buy a player for close to his valuation

and

- I don't think I've been able to sell my players for much (if anything) close to their valuation.

What is the point in this valuation?

I would be happy to buy next year's version of FM if all it did was fix the tactics (match engine), training and transfers. I realise it is a complicated game but a year to fix this should be more than enough. And if they need more testers between now and then ....... I'm free.

burjennio
05-12-2007, 09:55
Im not even concerned with the subtle stuff, I just want transfer prices realistic and fair, "20+million for average players is silly. Clubs offering £60+m for players is silly, make budgets reasonable, but make transfers affordable and we'll go far

eg. Fernando Torres went to Liverpool for around £20m in the summer, this is a huge club paying for one of the most coveted players around

FM08- Gerrard to Real Madrid £57m, No chance £30m, £35m tops

cabello
05-12-2007, 10:58
5 days into the thread, and still no response.

C'mon SI! This thread has not denegerated into a name calling bash against SI, but has been thoughtful and constructive.

Paul, Neil and the rest of the usual suspects, we want some feedback please.

Ched
05-12-2007, 11:41
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darrkespur:

The second part is that AI clubs really need better shortlist creation and team management. They can select squads but they can't work out what type of player they can use? It can't be hard to write a little subroutine that analyses the AI squad, gives every player a rating at each position then works out where the team needs strengthening and where it has too many players? I'm terrible at programming but given a database of team information I could probably manage to write that kind of thing in a few months. For a team like FM's this should have been done when the engine was first built. If we can get the assistant to tell us what our best lineup is and where the weak links are, and we can get our scouts to search for players to fit that, why isn't the AI doing that too?

QUOTE]

excellent point, the amount of times i've seen a club sign too many players for one position is utterly rediculous; recent examples: chelsea signing maicon, alves and ryan taylor in THE SAME transfer window and keeping paulo and belleti, similarly i've seen teams with 3 world class gks, why can't they just make it so that the AI analyses the team in the same way the humans ass man does, it's not perfect but it's a starting point.

Ched
05-12-2007, 11:42
Originally posted by Ched:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by darrkespur:

The second part is that AI clubs really need better shortlist creation and team management. They can select squads but they can't work out what type of player they can use? It can't be hard to write a little subroutine that analyses the AI squad, gives every player a rating at each position then works out where the team needs strengthening and where it has too many players? I'm terrible at programming but given a database of team information I could probably manage to write that kind of thing in a few months. For a team like FM's this should have been done when the engine was first built. If we can get the assistant to tell us what our best lineup is and where the weak links are, and we can get our scouts to search for players to fit that, why isn't the AI doing that too?

[QUOTE]

excellent point, the amount of times i've seen a club sign too many players for one position is utterly rediculous; recent examples: chelsea signing maicon, alves and ryan taylor in THE SAME transfer window and keeping paulo and belleti, similarly i've seen teams with 3 world class gks, why can't they just make it so that the AI analyses the team in the same way the humans ass man does, it's not perfect but it's a starting point.

goddammit why can't i edit/preview posts?

Capocannionere
05-12-2007, 12:09
Excellent points in many of the posts in this thread.

I just have to add one issue of the transfermarket that bothers me immensly. I've moaned about it before but not gotten any responses, perhaps it is only me but, nevertheless...

January transferwindow 2008. Sampdoria buys 4(!) spanish players, Torino 3 brits, while a complete exodus of italian players to other leagues takes place. Where is the realism in this? The game has no regard what so ever to language- or cultural barriers which might hinder players settling in their new clubs. I just find it extremely annoying having to face e.g. a Catania which starts with 8 spaniards or a Fulham with an all-italian backline. Am I the only one who finds this annoying?

Also, like pointed out by previous posters, AI clubs act as if completely braindead. Example:

Playing as Palermo, I noticed a Milan striker complaining about lack of first team football so I thought I'd start a campaign to lure him over. When looking at the Milan squad I realized they had 7(!) strikers in the first team, while playing a 4-3-2-1. None of these were tranferlisted. While enquiring about one of the strikers the player's agent informs me " Milan are on the lookout for a striker". gaah!

cabello
05-12-2007, 17:46
6 days into the thread, and still no response.

The_Ultimate_Red_Devil
05-12-2007, 17:56
Originally posted by Pad-23:
The Transfers on Football manager have always infuriated me except for maybe on 2006 when transfer prices were reasonable. This year again it has become ridiculous like on 2007 where Chelsea completely ruined the game.

I think transfer fees are way to high on my game Portsmouth spent 27 million on Dean Ashton and 20 million on David Bentley in the January transfer window, in real life these players would be worth far less Ashton around 12 million and Bentley 8 million. I really struggle to strengthen my squad as well given a 14 million transfer budget in 3rd season and only managed to buy 3 players, one on a free where in real life you would be able to buy 4 maybe 5 reasonable premiership class players.

Wages have never been represented properly in the game either on any version, in real life players demand much more money e.g I signed Michael Johnson on the game for 5.5 million he only asked for 16000 a week in real life this would be closer to about 30000 a week.

Also going back to what people said about players retiring early at the ages of 23 but it is people born outside the E.U that annoy me, English players on frees will be snapped up by a club quick enough. But for example on my game this Australian wonder kid was produced with a PA in the 190's his club Sydney or something did not offer him a new contract so he was released and retired at the age of 20 what a waste of talent!!

I have to agree that FM 2006 seemed to have more realistic transfer fees. Also the AI managers seemed less likely to buy the same players when you started a new game and they seemed to realise where they needed strengthening and where the dead weight was.

A perfect example is:


Originally posted by Capocannionere:

Also, like pointed out by previous posters, AI clubs act as if completely braindead. Example:

Playing as Palermo, I noticed a Milan striker complaining about lack of first team football so I thought I'd start a campaign to lure him over. When looking at the Milan squad I realized they had 7(!) strikers in the first team, while playing a 4-3-2-1. None of these were tranferlisted. While enquiring about one of the strikers the player's agent informs me " Milan are on the lookout for a striker". gaah!

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

kslee5
05-12-2007, 19:57
Originally posted by cabello:
6 days into the thread, and still no response.


well....if you follow the forum for the pass 3 years, you can find that till now also no response from SI ever since fm2005 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

cabello
05-12-2007, 21:06
Originally posted by kslee5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
6 days into the thread, and still no response.


well....if you follow the forum for the pass 3 years, you can find that till now also no response from SI ever since fm2005 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, but I am hoping that SI has become more conscientious in their old age!!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously though, these are valid concerns and as I've said before, the posts here are not SI bashing in any shape or form but more constructive. I am hoping someone from SI (Miles, Paul etc etc) will respond, so at least we can have an insight.

Vroomfondel
05-12-2007, 22:06
Playing FM this evening, I have been reminded of another major inadequacy (mentioned in other threads I believe but not here):

I want player X. I have money, but I'm not Chelsea. He has one year remaining on his contract, and is a backup. His team demand over double his valuation for him and won't budge, so I lay off and try to make do with my existing players. Two months later (October, so nobody can offer him free transfers for two months yet), poking around for alternative solutions, I see he has been transfer listed by request. Great! What are they asking for him? One-tenth (!) of his valuation. Sure, he's gonna leave on a Bosman... but a 95% devaluation over their demands from eight weeks earlier?

I was happy to be challenged by the market's unwillingness to cough up an ideal solution, as it can be hard to manufacture such a problem in FM. I had been researching into "Plan C" alternatives - sometimes you just have to make do. And then they dump my initial target for pennies? WTF? It's a big, big immersion breaker.

LJ
05-12-2007, 22:20
excellent post...

totally agree with you.

it's frustrating whenever you make a concession and increase the offer for a player, the AI will increase its valuation. AI never seems to make concession over a player's valuation... much like a 'take-it-or-leave-it' thing

kslee5
05-12-2007, 23:06
Originally posted by cabello:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kslee5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
6 days into the thread, and still no response.


well....if you follow the forum for the pass 3 years, you can find that till now also no response from SI ever since fm2005 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, but I am hoping that SI has become more conscientious in their old age!!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously though, these are valid concerns and as I've said before, the posts here are not SI bashing in any shape or form but more constructive. I am hoping someone from SI (Miles, Paul etc etc) will respond, so at least we can have an insight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

they wont and no way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ched
06-12-2007, 02:44
Originally posted by Capocannionere:

January transferwindow 2008. Sampdoria buys 4(!) spanish players, Torino 3 brits, while a complete exodus of italian players to other leagues takes place. Where is the realism in this? The game has no regard what so ever to language- or cultural barriers which might hinder players settling in their new clubs. I just find it extremely annoying having to face e.g. a Catania which starts with 8 spaniards or a Fulham with an all-italian backline. Am I the only one who finds this annoying?



Nope you're not the only one who finds this annoying. Seeing arsene wenger buy english players in FM is similarly irritating; but i've got to agree with the post, the amount of brits abroad is comical.


Similarly, if you set the game to "load all players from brazil" (which i personally like to do as they have some quality youth) then within 20 seasons EVERY national team (even from those with leagues running) has at least 3 nationalised brazilians in it...

Ched
06-12-2007, 02:48
Originally posted by kslee5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kslee5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
6 days into the thread, and still no response.


well....if you follow the forum for the pass 3 years, you can find that till now also no response from SI ever since fm2005 http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know, but I am hoping that SI has become more conscientious in their old age!!! http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Seriously though, these are valid concerns and as I've said before, the posts here are not SI bashing in any shape or form but more constructive. I am hoping someone from SI (Miles, Paul etc etc) will respond, so at least we can have an insight. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

they wont and no way http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only response i can see this thread getting is the typical canned response for new features; along the lines of "we appreciate your grievances but we have a set plan as to what features to tackle and in what order, thank you for your comments etc"

Tal_Hides
06-12-2007, 05:29
There's one other issue or potential exploit that I've picked up on which I mentioned in a previous thread but got no response. AI teams can sometimes seem totally oblivious to a player's buyout clause.

I started a game as Atletico Madrid, and as other people have mentioned, I got the usual multiple enquiries from Arsenal about Maxi Rodriguez. At the time the player has a buyout clause of £16m so I was seriously worried about losing him. After rejecting or negotiating multiple bids and enquiries to way over the £16m Arsenal eventually made another enquiry. This time I opted for a different approach, I set the initial fee to the value of the buyout clause of £16m, but then added another £5m over the next few months, more money based on goals scored and a 40% sell-on clause.

I was baffled when I got the response that Arsenal had accepted my demands and were effectively spending around £30m on him if all clauses were met and he was sold on for a similar fee, despite the fact that I was forced to sell him if they simply offered £16m. Why would a club willingly pay over the odds for a player when they can actually force the transfer through at half the cost?

Tal_Hides
06-12-2007, 05:31
Ah, to be fair to SI I've just rechecked the bugs forum and they did reply a week later thanking me for reporting this issue, so perhaps this is one issue that will be dealt with.

T-Bag
06-12-2007, 06:15
That one isn't a bug.

The AI can't see the buyout clause unless the player is scouted properly (iirc anyway)

T-Bag
06-12-2007, 06:16
edit - oh you said si responded ? strange, im sure this has been confirmed in previous versions that they can't see the release clause.

Pilgrim UK
06-12-2007, 06:48
Just a reply to bump this up and add to the growing petitiont hat this thread has become. The OP has outlined the main problems very succinctly, but I also agree with the secondary complaints that other posters have mentioned. As peopel say, "We've fixed the problems from last year" won' sell as well as "all new" features advertised on the box. Noevertheless, the transfer system should be one of the cornerstones of the game's quality, and at the moment it's severely lacking.

Craig[EVE]
06-12-2007, 07:21
Ched http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif Great post. But you've missed out one of my favourates.

Bolton would like to offer you player X for £100k

Click make offer. Offer 100k. Submit.

Offer Refused or they try to negotiate it!

What's the point?!

Ando THFC
06-12-2007, 07:39
Ches - fantastic post. You've pretty much got down what a lot of people have thought but couldn't muster the energy to type out.

I've been saying for years that SI need to overhaul the negotiation as their number one priority. It's such a basic part of the game and they've ignored it for too long. It's never worked and yet they've updated other elements (like training and scouting) instead of fixing this.

The overarching problem is a complete lack of logic or similarity to the real world.

SI have spent years coming up with a variety of excuses to explain away in-game transfer howlers when they should just knuckle down and fix them.

As for those saying the game needs a raft of new features to sell; do you really think there are may people that decide to buy FM based on a few vague features on the back of the box. And getting basics right can be sold as "revolutionary new system of buying and selling system" as they've done when other modules have been given an update.

Tal_Hides
06-12-2007, 07:47
I'd like to see managers and clubs being given some sort of reputation in the transfer market. For instance, Peter Kenyon earned a reputation at Man Utd for paying higher prices and being slow to do deals, as a result they lost out on Ronaldinho and ended up paying £30m for Ferdinand even though Leeds were going bankrupt and were desperate for money, had Man Utd refused to go any higher Leeds would probably have been forced to accept. Because of Kenyon's reputation, clubs always demand that little bit more, this has carried on at Chelsea.

Similarly, some clubs have a reputation for bargain buys and always refusing to pay over the odds for any player (Bolton), whilst others will pay silly money because they have a specific transfer policy such as signing young English players (Spurs). If the game could somehow include reputations like this it would seriously revolutionise the whole transfer market and give a much more realistic approach. You'd know that teams or managers that have a tight reputation wont suddenly pay £80m for a squad player.

George Graham
06-12-2007, 09:56
Originally posted by kslee5:
i agree with the TS

but....lets put it this way
you guys can argue whatever you all want
but what can be guarantee is, SI wont do a thing to fix it

they wont fix it in a coming patch, and nor it will be fixed in fm08
so live with it

why did i say so?
coz this issue already been discuss since fm06....but till now? what had hapend....you guys see it with your eyes

http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon14.gif

Spot on- so howabout it SI, why has the transfer system remained "broken" since at least FM2006.

George Graham
06-12-2007, 09:57
And why did I forget to put a question mark? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

phil1702
06-12-2007, 10:03
I hate it when you have quarter of a million to spend, go to tranfer list for midfielders, say, and filter out unreallistic targets. You are then left with players from Batley Womens Institute Youth Squad or similar teams.

NeilUK
06-12-2007, 10:15
I agree with the original post aswell, you seemed to be preparing yourself for a flaming. But I dont think that was ever a danger, you have made some very good points and more importantly in a constructive way. Its posts like "this is c***" and the like that get flamed and rightly so. Your post will be helpful and I am sure SI will appreciate feedback being given in this manner. Might have been better in the bugs section , but I am sure SI have seen it.
And I have to agree the constant enquiries for players every week is really annoying. It happens even when you have offered a player to everyone! Been a problem since FM2007

Ched
06-12-2007, 13:25
Originally posted by NeilUK:
I agree with the original post aswell, you seemed to be preparing yourself for a flaming. But I dont think that was ever a danger, you have made some very good points and more importantly in a constructive way. Its posts like "this is c***" and the like that get flamed and rightly so. Your post will be helpful and I am sure SI will appreciate feedback being given in this manner. Might have been better in the bugs section , but I am sure SI have seen it.
And I have to agree the constant enquiries for players every week is really annoying. It happens even when you have offered a player to everyone! Been a problem since FM2007

it depends who's online rather than post content as to what gets flamed half the time, hence my opening paragraph http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

that said it's nice to see people agreeing, let's hope SI agree....

cabello
06-12-2007, 22:13
I'm frankly quite surprised at the lack of a response from SI. I am sure that they are aware of this thread, and maybe they feel that ignoring it would be the best bet of letting it die.

Or perhaps the fact that there are no flame wars, threats, cursing and innuendos aimed at SI in this thread allows them to ignore it. It appears that those kind of threads almost always gets a form of response.

Bonzo
07-12-2007, 03:51
All of those flaw's mentioned bug me to the end of the earth.

Also youth contract players not signing contracts at bigger clubs for a higher wage. Then the same player accepting your now lower contract offer once they turn 17 and pro. So frustrating and unrealistic.

Ched
07-12-2007, 06:07
Originally posted by cabello:
I'm frankly quite surprised at the lack of a response from SI. I am sure that they are aware of this thread, and maybe they feel that ignoring it would be the best bet of letting it die.

Or perhaps the fact that there are no flame wars, threats, cursing and innuendos aimed at SI in this thread allows them to ignore it. It appears that those kind of threads almost always gets a form of response.

Starting to get that feeling myself http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Why do they bother asking people for articulate well thought out criticisms when they just ignore them? They can't have not seen this thread, so either they've looked at the title and thought it was just another rant, or they've read the first post and decided to ignore it rather than admit that they may have overlooked one part of the game.

Maybe we need someone to come on here call them all thieving ******** and threaten to report them to trading standards? Threads like that never go without notice....

NB: not that i'm in anyway suggesting SI are thieves or that i will be reporting them to trading standards before some over-vigilant mod jumps down my throat.

pyro69
07-12-2007, 06:17
Well...i think SI deserve RED CARD for abusing there customers! http://community.sigames.com/customicons/icon13.gif

cabello
07-12-2007, 06:20
Originally posted by Ched:


Starting to get that feeling myself http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Maybe we need someone to come on here call them all thieving ******** and threaten to report them to trading standards? Threads like that never go without notice....

NB: not that i'm in anyway suggesting SI are thieves or that i will be reporting them to trading standards before some over-vigilant mod jumps down my throat.

At least then you'll have proof they've read the thread. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

James_Lang
07-12-2007, 08:38
Surley SI have to respond to this post soon.

Perhaps they are a little stuck on what to say other than the original post had some very very good points and that changes need to be made.

T-Bag
07-12-2007, 12:02
I doubt you will get a SI response tbh. I'm sure they are fully aware of the issues with the current transfer system.

Why they haven't been updated or revamped is a question I can't answer and I doubt they will answer on a public forum.

Ched
07-12-2007, 13:48
Originally posted by T-Bag:
I doubt you will get a SI response tbh. I'm sure they are fully aware of the issues with the current transfer system.

Why they haven't been updated or revamped is a question I can't answer and I doubt they will answer on a public forum.

It's a pity that they seemingly have no intent on letting their fan base know if/when these things may be improved and why they haven't already been fixed, all it does is leave us guessing and becoming increasingly irritated.

Oh and a new one for the list;

A new addition for FM08 i think, players delaying loan offers for weeks and weeks and....oh wait it's the end of the transfer window. Completely irritating, i scouted the player, my ever so reliable scout told me he would be EXTREMELEY happy to play for me, so i asked for him on loan, he was unhappy at his existing club so i thought it wouldn't be a problem... 3 weeks later, the transfer window closes with the player still debating....comical.

cabello
07-12-2007, 21:02
As a customer, being ignored and treated in a "like it or lump it" manner by the only shop in the hills for miles is particularly infuriating.

I am quite sure most of the people who posted in this thread are long term hard core FM players, who have supported the Collyers since the early days of CM. Most would have bought FM every year. Some, like me, actually have FM and WSM (to my eternal regret, but that's for another thread on another day.

Going slightly off topic, the bugs still prevalent in the latest patch (which was delayed as it had to be "tested" thoroughly- Spanish registrations, one on ones anyone?) makes me wonder which game the testers were playing, as these bugs were immediately pointed out by forum members upon the patch's release. Again, others have raised their "queries" in a more passionate manner in other threads, a lot more eloquently than I can here.

To then have these valid and constructive points about the transfer system not even acknowledged let alone addressed makes for some very unhappy customers, who in the future may reconsider "some other means" of procuring FM, other than from a store.

At least then, the outlay in acquiring the product will be the equivalent of the attention given to it.

PETER CASSIDY
07-12-2007, 21:35
As a customer, being ignored and treated in a "like it or lump it" manner by the only shop in the hills for miles is particularly infuriating.

I am quite sure most of the people who posted in this thread are long term hard core FM players, who have supported the Collyers since the early days of CM. Most would have bought FM every year. Some, like me, actually have FM and WSM (to my eternal regret, but that's for another thread on another day.

Going slightly off topic, the bugs still prevalent in the latest patch (which was delayed as it had to be "tested" thoroughly- Spanish registrations, one on ones anyone?) makes me wonder which game the testers were playing, as these bugs were immediately pointed out by forum members upon the patch's release. Again, others have raised their "queries" in a more passionate manner in other threads, a lot more eloquently than I can here.

To then have these valid and constructive points about the transfer system not even acknowledged let alone addressed makes for some very unhappy customers, who in the future may reconsider "some other means" of procuring FM, other than from a store.

At least then, the outlay in acquiring the product will be the equivalent of the attention given to it.

Reply

TRUE

Mygel
08-12-2007, 10:49
It is interesting that no reply is coming when it seems as every single poster has a on or more issue with the current situation.

For me I do not care about the size of the transfer fees or wages as the game should be able to create a potential future. The problem as I see it is still the whole system. The non-existing negotation system and lack of realism on how clubs and managers interact with each other in this aspect of the game.

nattai
09-12-2007, 00:21
I never have much problem selling players, probably because i always play with many leagues running.


My main issue with the current system is the influence of club reputation. I like playing in smaller leagues like the A-league or Swiss etc, and often the starting squads in these leagues are the strongest they will ever be. Playing lists of AI controlled teams will often just deteriate because they cannot sign the sort of calibre players they began with, and the players they begin with usually start wanting out pretty quickly.

Obviously this makes long term games pretty unappealling. The most annoying part of this though is how obvious it is so im surprised it hasnt been addressed in the past.

Mad_Cat
09-12-2007, 02:25
Originally posted by Canabary:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
Any chance of an acknowledgement or a response SI?

Maybe if this topic grows into a 5 page post or several annoying posts. But as of now, I doubt it.

Anyway back on topic. I agree with all of the first posters points. And I have found myself quite annoyed over another thing.

£35m transfers for unsettled players?! Excuse me but did anyone notice what Henry was sold for?
£17m, because he was unsettled, yet in game you can rarely get an unsettled player for less than his value, most of the time you have to pay twice or triple that value to get him...
I also find myself annoyed by the fact that a bunch of players on teams well bellow champions league level would demand 40m + for a player when a big club comes knocking.
Let's be honest here. If the likes of Barca, Real, ManUtd, Arsenal etc come knocking on your door to buy a talent and you are in the championship or bottom of the prem, you don't say "well sure, give us 40m for him and he's yours" that's just not realistic.
I know that this would favor the already rich and powerful, but that's how football works...

Also.... while I'm on it. The record transfer of a player is £46M and that for a player that had proved himself internationally and is rated one of the best players to ever live, arguably the best midfielder to ever live.
So it is quite unrealistic that Any club in the world would demand a whopping £70m for a player, Such as Ãguero (£70m + £20m over 12 months) and Gerrard (cost me £80m, that I got him at all is unrealistic to be honest)
Now that it seems Spanish papers have confirmed Ronaldinho's transfer to Chelsea, we'll see how much he goes for.
But 1 billion (as is the price in game) is something I very much doubt.

but yeah.. transfer system needs to be redone and you should be able to sign players for "the future" "the reserves" "the youth team". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally Agree and as I have stated in another post £140 million for Ibrahimovic is ridiculous but £220 million for Cristiano well that was enough to stop me playing the game and here is the screen shot I posted in an earlier thread. If thats not enough for you I suggest you try it you might not get the same figure but you will definately get there and abuot the same figure.

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8244/ronaldokc8.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ronaldokc8.jpg)]http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/8244/ronaldokc8.th.jpg (http://img147.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ronaldokc8.jpg)

SkidRo
09-12-2007, 03:21
excellent post ched you have covered almost everything apart from something that t-bag said which was

"One thing which bothers me, and it has been like this for as far back as I can remember - probably even as far back as the CM3 series. You are chasing a player and the AI reject all your bids even if you are offering way over the value of the player. Then suddenly a few weeks later the AI bid the actual value of the player and it is accepted! Of course you can then bid the value of the player and get the bid accepted too. It just seems like the AI know when other AI managers are willing to sell players."

this is also another stupid thing but it can allow you to get a player for cheaper but its just stupid.
they seriously need to sort out the transfer system and cut down on teams being more willing to pay for players if its over a monthly period to be honet i dont think it really makes a difference whether its upfront or over a period you still lose that cut of your budget and at end of the day club will still lose all that money. i can understand for smaller clubs but for bigger clubs like barcelona that clearly have 100mil or so its just frustrating.

Sky
09-12-2007, 03:37
Please SI, take this post seriously. We'd all be happy to be guinea pigs for patch 8.02, it could be the perfect grounds for testing drastic changes before splashing them out on FM09.

Mygel
10-12-2007, 02:12
A small comment on at least looking into improving the system had been a nice gesture from SI.

pyro69
10-12-2007, 04:41
why are you bothering them now...
can't you see its weekend now????

OOPS http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ched
10-12-2007, 06:31
Originally posted by nattai:
I never have much problem selling players, probably because i always play with many leagues running.


My main issue with the current system is the influence of club reputation. I like playing in smaller leagues like the A-league or Swiss etc, and often the starting squads in these leagues are the strongest they will ever be. Playing lists of AI controlled teams will often just deteriate because they cannot sign the sort of calibre players they began with, and the players they begin with usually start wanting out pretty quickly.

Obviously this makes long term games pretty unappealling. The most annoying part of this though is how obvious it is so im surprised it hasnt been addressed in the past.

League rep does seem to have an inflated degree of importance in this version of FM, anyone who has tried to sign bojan, dos santos etc will notice that the main reason they give is "not sure moving to an english/italian club would be good for them"

Yet another thing that needs to be remedied, at the moment i'm having to tweak league reps in the database just to get some sensible player movement, e.g. kaka who is currently happy at AC IRL, will willingly move to chelsea in game, ronaldinho who is IRL currently tarting himself out across europe will never leave barca in game...it's just a bit silly http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

cabello
10-12-2007, 23:23
If anyone EVER says how responsive SI are to their fans, how they listen to their fans etc etc in other threads , please refer them to this thread where it's been ELEVEN (11) DAYS (and counting) and not a single peep from SI.

Perhaps that site sortitoutsi was started by people who were also ignored.

skanky
11-12-2007, 00:48
i think the sad state of SI's unwillingness to respond to things like this but this is our own doing tbh.

lets face it, SI know that we wont stop buying the game unless there is better out there.

and unfortunately because of that, they seem to have free reign to be as uncooperative/slack with comminucation as they like.

sure there are <STRIKE>people</STRIKE> fanboys will say "shut up fool, SI at least listen to us!!" ..well, this has been a problem for not just this version but for pretty much all the versions before that.

i wish there was a decent competitor to fm, it might not lure in all the gamers, but if it does enough to make SI sit up and pull its finger out, then thats a win in my book.

jaycar
11-12-2007, 01:22
Some very good points, great OP.

Anyone from SI looking into this?

sten_super
11-12-2007, 01:28
I know it's not very helpful, but I would imagine that someone (either from SI, or one of the moderators, who will have forwarded it to SI) will have seen this and take the comments on board. However, they are generally reluctant to commment in threads. Maybe I'm wrong though, they may comment. Just don't assume that the thread is being ignored if they don't.

RedmanJB
11-12-2007, 02:47
I'd like if SI came in and noted this thread.

Ched
11-12-2007, 11:56
Originally posted by sten_super:
I know it's not very helpful, but I would imagine that someone (either from SI, or one of the moderators, who will have forwarded it to SI) will have seen this and take the comments on board. However, they are generally reluctant to commment in threads. Maybe I'm wrong though, they may comment. Just don't assume that the thread is being ignored if they don't.

Not so sure about this, i'd be willing to bet that someone has read this, but SI (PaulC specifically) do comment fairly regularly, perhaps they just don't have a satisfactory answer for why this hasn't been fixed in years.

Ter
11-12-2007, 12:05
I've been reading this thread through and have passed on some suggestions. I know next to nothing about how the transfer stuff works in the game so it's not really my place to pass comment on it.

We know there are areas of the game that are far from perfect and we do have ideas to improve on all of these areas. There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed at the detail some of it goes into. I certainly was.

You could probably take any area of the game and analyse it and come up with a lot of ways to improve it. We certainly do that sort of thing at our end and it's good to see some of the people on here doing similar things (although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Ched
11-12-2007, 12:11
Originally posted by Ter:
I've been reading this thread through and have passed on some suggestions. I know next to nothing about how the transfer stuff works in the game so it's not really my place to pass comment on it.

We know there are areas of the game that are far from perfect and we do have ideas to improve on all of these areas. There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed at the detail some of it goes into. I certainly was.

You could probably take any area of the game and analyse it and come up with a lot of ways to improve it. We certainly do that sort of thing at our end and it's good to see some of the people on here doing similar things (although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Sorry if i wasn't clear, but i do just play the game, and i do enjoy it, i haven't tried to find fault, these things just come up repeatedly from playing the game. God knows what i'd find if i was actually trying to find problems with the game....

As to how complex the game is, i fully appreciate that it isn't simple, it's just that i feel there has been time wasted in less important areas (personal opinion, not claiming this to be a fact!) and feel that some of the faults have been around for ever http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

thanks for the reply tho

BH_II
11-12-2007, 13:31
Originally posted by Ter:

(although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

i would enjoy it if i could sell players I want to http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

fonz
11-12-2007, 14:57
The problem of being unable to sell excellent players, even if there vauled for £0 particulary irritates me and always has done. Perhaps though, since this has been a problem for so long (many of these issues I remember in CM3 and 99/00) it isn't possible to fix.

matt garside
11-12-2007, 15:15
Brilliant points, these are fundamental flaws in the game, which just don't get fixed. A new overhaul of the transfer system needs to be put in place.

DMaster2
11-12-2007, 15:52
Some more point:

1)why when i want to loan out players (mostly for spain,ex: R. Madrid Castilla) even if you set 0 as loan cost,o% of the wage (the player pay all the wage) and stick make avaible for cup and still no one is interested...With those condition IRL many LL teams should be interested...

2) Why non-playable league teams often don't loan/buy/sell/enquiry at all? Surely they don't are as busy as playable league teams, but i think they should do much more...

3) Why non-playable lower league teams are not interested to loan/buy for free (this for youngster with very low wages of course http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)?
This could be a solution for 1)

4) Why teams like buy foreigners instead of homegrowing players? Maybe this is common in Premiership but you have to agree that there isn't only english football...

11-12-2007, 23:51
Very Excellent Post, Ched ...
Repetitive Enquires from the same team is always irritating me ...

RedmanJB
12-12-2007, 03:29
(although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults Wink )

The faults found me tbh.

Ched
12-12-2007, 03:40
Originally posted by fonz:
The problem of being unable to sell excellent players, even if there vauled for £0 particulary irritates me and always has done. Perhaps though, since this has been a problem for so long (many of these issues I remember in CM3 and 99/00) it isn't possible to fix.

I suspect that it is entirely possible to fix, it just requires more time and effort than SI feel are warranted in this area, as i've said before, new features sell better to new customers than merely fixing the old ones.

xouman
12-12-2007, 05:01
Originally posted by DMaster2:
Some more point:

1)why when i want to loan out players (mostly for spain,ex: R. Madrid Castilla) even if you set 0 as loan cost,o% of the wage (the player pay all the wage) and stick make avaible for cup and still no one is interested...With those condition IRL many LL teams should be interested...

2) Why non-playable league teams often don't loan/buy/sell/enquiry at all? Surely they don't are as busy as playable league teams, but i think they should do much more...

3) Why non-playable lower league teams are not interested to loan/buy for free (this for youngster with very low wages of course http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)?
This could be a solution for 1)

4) Why teams like buy foreigners instead of homegrowing players? Maybe this is common in Premiership but you have to agree that there isn't only english football...

1-Players at Castilla won't go to a LL team. That's why no LL offers to loan them, just because the players won't accept.

2-More or less with the same answer. Few players would play in LL teams if they think they deserve to play higher. LLTs know it and don't offer.

3-yes it's like 1

4-IRL it's the same. Maybe if foreign players demanded more money (in order to pay a new house), teams should buy less foreign players, but best teams around the world do the same. In best leagues in europe half of the players are from abroad.

xouman
12-12-2007, 05:06
Originally posted by Ched:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fonz:
The problem of being unable to sell excellent players, even if there vauled for £0 particulary irritates me and always has done. Perhaps though, since this has been a problem for so long (many of these issues I remember in CM3 and 99/00) it isn't possible to fix.

I suspect that it is entirely possible to fix, it just requires more time and effort than SI feel are warranted in this area, as i've said before, new features sell better to new customers than merely fixing the old ones. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Think about Cassano for example. Nobody wants him due to his wages. It's the same with some other players. Real Madrid had to sell players in the past for 0€ and also pay some of those players wages :/

And LL teams only sell players IRL if they are too good. Players not in the starting eleven are never sold (unless they are great young prospets), they are instead released

man of steel
12-12-2007, 09:59
Originally posted by Ter:
I've been reading this thread through and have passed on some suggestions. I know next to nothing about how the transfer stuff works in the game so it's not really my place to pass comment on it.

We know there are areas of the game that are far from perfect and we do have ideas to improve on all of these areas. There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed at the detail some of it goes into. I certainly was.

You could probably take any area of the game and analyse it and come up with a lot of ways to improve it. We certainly do that sort of thing at our end and it's good to see some of the people on here doing similar things (although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )


Excellent OP.

At least someone official is prepared to reply, and thanks for that. it is appreciated.

But as you self confessed to know very little about how the transfer system is implemented, is there any chance if seeing someone on here of an official capacity who does actually know how the transfer intricacies are programmed, and a reason of why it is like it is. It shouldn't be up to you to come here and explain something that isn't particularly your field. And from your profile, you're in charge of the skin, so I'd presume you're hard at it trying to rectify that disastrous mess.

On that subject, quickly, IMO there was nothing really wrong with how 07 looked, just a few tweaks with the positioning of the icons would've sufficed, I think, to make it more user-friendly and less work for the mouse to do.

Since playing the debacle that was the 08 demo, for some considerable time, I've gone back to 07, and will continue to do so instead of wasting money on the latest version, patched or not. I can live with the transfer system in 07, as bad as it is, because I've already parted with my cash, but seeing as it's as bad as ever in 08 and totally unchanged, I'll save my money until something drastic is done. As always, I'll be watching the forums and updates on the faults of 08, and when they're corrected to a satisfactory standard, and the general opinion of the users is favourable, I'll consider buying the latest version.

As someone said earlier; we generally don't look for faults. While we're enjoying playing the game, the faults find us.

Lyvean
12-12-2007, 10:17
Originally posted by Ter:
I've been reading this thread through and have passed on some suggestions. I know next to nothing about how the transfer stuff works in the game so it's not really my place to pass comment on it.

We know there are areas of the game that are far from perfect and we do have ideas to improve on all of these areas. There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed at the detail some of it goes into. I certainly was.

You could probably take any area of the game and analyse it and come up with a lot of ways to improve it. We certainly do that sort of thing at our end and it's good to see some of the people on here doing similar things (although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

While it is certainly not your friend Ter, some of us are quite fed up with these responses that are aimed for brainless 15 year olds.

"We are always trying to improve the game" or
"There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed..."

No, some of us are not amazed and we have no interest on the underlying code. Some of us can't certainly not be mystified like we are small children by the "amazingly complex code that geniuses like SI can produce", you know?

These type of answers (although not especially by you, I have always thought of you as a valuable member in these forums) can only seduce children.

FM08 has tremendous design faults and many showstopping bugs. No amount of mysticism of the "underlying complex code that can amaze" can change that.

Your "underlying complex code" does not work.

Lyvean
12-12-2007, 10:18
friend=field.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hawshiels
12-12-2007, 10:48
Originally posted by Ter:
I've been reading this thread through and have passed on some suggestions. I know next to nothing about how the transfer stuff works in the game so it's not really my place to pass comment on it.

We know there are areas of the game that are far from perfect and we do have ideas to improve on all of these areas. There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed at the detail some of it goes into. I certainly was.

You could probably take any area of the game and analyse it and come up with a lot of ways to improve it. We certainly do that sort of thing at our end and it's good to see some of the people on here doing similar things (although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Firstly, thanks for responding to this thread. To be honest, this fault in the game is a bit like the boiling frog. You can put in a frog in hot water and it will immediately jump out, but if you put it in cold water, you can slowly boil it and the frog will not move and die.

The transfer system is the same. Since 05 it has steadily become worse and it takes a post like this one (original post that is) to highlight just how ridiculous the transfer system now is in the game.

I have no doubt that it is highly complex. The reason I know this is because no-one understands how it works - not even you. But perhaps this is the root of the problem. It is now so highly complex that it does not resemble any degree of reality. Perhaps SI could consider an overhaul and completely simplify this area of the game.

Many of the old-timers know what to expect within the game, and have really just "put up with it" for the past 3 or 4 years, but buying and selling players (including the loaning of players to affiliated clubs) is one of the most enjoyable parts of the game and we'd like to get the most out of it.

I am sure you can tell the difference between the many rants that go on in the forums but this thread is clearly not one of them. In fact, this thread is exactly the type of thing that I would want to read about if I were a representative of SI. It has been carefully compiled and argued reasonably between your loyal users and I believe we have a consensus of opinion about the frustrations within the game. Surely this is the point of the forums?

Which brings me to my point (finally). The karma system (i.e. points being awarded for posts on the forums) rewards pointless numerous posts as there is no weighting on the value of the post. So, Ched and the rest are rated amateurs and yet the value of this post is worth a thousand of the 'general nonsense" threads I see on here each day.

To summarise though, I don't expect the karma system to be changed, but I would settle for a revamp of the transfer system. That would be reward enough for this thread and your many loyal FM'ers.

ThaJaguare
12-12-2007, 12:44
It is such a pity that there isn't a way to make a poll on these forums (that I could find anyway) otherwise someone could just ask what needs to be done.

e.g.

Do you want:

A) Board confidence info
B) Ability to vote in player awards
C) Coach reports
D) An updated transfer system rather then the same one that we developed 5 years ago.

I wonder how many people wouldn't vote for D?

It seems to me that rather then make a completly new game, SI are just updating their old games year after year without fixing the mistakes.

As mentioned before in this topic, since there is no real competition for football management games, SI can do what they like - namely wallpaper over the cracks.

I am rather lucky that I didn't buy this game - it was a present - so I unlike around 95% of the people her, I am satisfied with what I paid for it!

Britrock
12-12-2007, 15:37
To those people complaining about SI's customer interaction - try dealing with the industry "leader", EA Sports. The level of service is laughable. The guys at SI do a very credible job with the service they provide, if you continually tell them they're doing a crap job though, do you really think they're going to continue what they do?

And on the transfer market, I thought this year's version was actually pretty credible. My transfer dealings in Feb 2012 with Newcastle had me spending £291m on 41 players and receiving £236m for 47 players. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Britrock/nufcprofile.jpg) I even received £28m for van der Vaart from Man Utd (who never played him and then sold him back to me for £10.75m).

Pretty realistic for me, as I was upgrading the squad and, thus, better players were coming in than going out.

Jopo12
12-12-2007, 18:27
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Britrock:
To those people complaining about SI's customer interaction - try dealing with the industry "leader", EA Sports. The level of service is laughable. The guys at SI do a very credible job with the service they provide, if you continually tell them they're doing a crap job though, do you really think they're going to continue what they do?/QUOTE]

Lol, quit the crab job then, I wouldn't mind http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. But, there are obvious differences in EA and SI, the biggest is the size difference. Not to question SI people's professional skills, but I think EA has a "little" bit more of experience in making of computer games, they are doing many different games and they have the resources to get good developers etc. together, and there are many more of them having time to contribute to games. And their ambitions are seemingly much lower than SI's, because the games they make are very easy in many ways, thus many people buy them and many won't even care because then they wouldn't be buying some of that crap http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. But they will make the money which matters.

And the amount of complainers is rationally much more lower than with SI. Which I hope shows that people playing FM are actually smarter and caring, if it only made their gaming experiences better. EA keeps on throwing their assembly line games which are played through in a couple of days and are full of maybe unrealism, but still they seem to make people happy, because they aren't trying to be multispectacles and they don't care anything else but pleasing the customer, though in a cheap way. FM tries to be a simulation and realistic, which it never will be, and not only it falls short in this aspect, but it will ruin the fun factor of the game for many. I really couldn't care less if FM wasn't "realistic". I'd like to it give me pleasing experiences and making me feel good. Now it only makes me angry (and hitting keyboards etc. if I didn't care about those breaking) after playing it 15 minutes and I have to find ways to get my mood back to even neutral level. Maybe this isn't a game for me then, but I sturdily claim that it isn't my fault.

Mister Z
13-12-2007, 06:04
Originally posted by Ter:
I've been reading this thread through and have passed on some suggestions. I know next to nothing about how the transfer stuff works in the game so it's not really my place to pass comment on it.

We know there are areas of the game that are far from perfect and we do have ideas to improve on all of these areas. There is a lot of underlying complex code and you would be quite amazed at the detail some of it goes into. I certainly was.

You could probably take any area of the game and analyse it and come up with a lot of ways to improve it. We certainly do that sort of thing at our end and it's good to see some of the people on here doing similar things (although you should just play and enjoy the game instead of trying to find faults http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I appreciate the feedback and that you passed on some suggestions but I’m somewhat bewildered by your end remark about finding bugs. The examples given are ‘logical’ bugs and have been in the system for some years now. If I want to enjoy the games than I will enjoy it even more if in the next version this part of the game gets an overhaul.

Ter
13-12-2007, 07:53
It wasn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular and was just in passing that I find it strange that as soon as the game is released a lot of people are holidaying and testing rather than just playing the game.

We most certainly do appreciate the feedback given to us, especially when it's done as constructively and detailed as this thread is.

Atytse
13-12-2007, 08:11
I agree as well. Lots of excellent point. Hopefully SI will take this into matter and make a new patch

Hawshiels
13-12-2007, 09:49
Originally posted by Atytse:
I agree as well. Lots of excellent point. Hopefully SI will take this into matter and make a new patch

I don't think many people here expect this to be done in any patch any time soon, but I would "hope" that SI would address it for FM 2009. We've put up with it for this long and one more year of this torture is something we can tolerate.

Ter is right though. We should try to enjoy the game as much as possible, but I am sure he realises that we probably all started off as pure gamers, but we've been coached/trained by SI to test the game in the expectation that our efforts will make it better in the long run.

So, it's back to having fun with the game for me, but it would help to even have a nod or a wink from someone at SI to indicate that this is in hand and that they'll take a serious look at the opinions constructed in this thread.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (Something like this perhaps ?)

Jopo12
13-12-2007, 11:51
Originally posted by Hawshiels:
Ter is right though. We should try to enjoy the game as much as possible, but I am sure he realises that we probably all started off as pure gamers, but we've been coached/trained by SI to test the game in the expectation that our efforts will make it better in the long run.

I doubt nobody did their tests if there wasn't anything to test. Who really thinks someone is only playing a perfect game just to find bugs in it so he/she can come around forums to whine? But as RedmanJB said, faults are finding gamers, not otherwise. And if there is anything that will seem weird surely people will want to know why it is happening, and as most (rightfully I say) claim they don't understand the reasons and aren't doing anything wrong, then enter the tests.

And for me the enjoyment of the game is flushed straight in toilet when there occurs a bug big enough to change my game's way, be it stupid transfer situation or a losing streak without no identifiable reason. Try ignoring your best striker being sold for 0 £ because of your chairman and dropping out of the cup to a 3rd division team with two real players with skills at 5-12 against your champions. Please tell me then how you keep enjoying FM after these kind of happenings? I seem not to be able to do it.

towerofpower
13-12-2007, 11:55
I am enjoying the game a lot and having good time with it...I am only very annoyed these same clubs making same bids and enquiries on weekly basis, it's like an awful joke.

kidkovacevic
13-12-2007, 12:07
It wasn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular and was just in passing that I find it strange that as soon as the game is released a lot of people are holidaying and testing rather than just playing the game.


I think it WOULD usually be a strange thing to do, but people have come to accept that with any new version of FM there will be weird weird things happening after about 3 years. It's become normal and as you say it's extremely useful for the makers of the game (or at least for the makING of the patches).

What i find strangest of all about the whole thing is that SI don't seem to test the holiday future in the same depth, so that the game is released in a situation where in 10 game years most major European nations have only 2 or 3 internationals under 25, a situation which was either unflagged or not considered worthy of priority alteration during the testing and patching stage. The fan-led investigations into patterns in the game through analysis of long-term holiday games seems to always throw up useful information, but also information that suggests no such tests were carried out by the makers.

Same unaltered pattern every year, with apparently no more emphasis put on holiday testing at SI, even though it seems to be the major way that fans get substantiated data to help balance the game. THAT's strange.

Ched
13-12-2007, 12:38
Originally posted by Ter:
It wasn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular and was just in passing that I find it strange that as soon as the game is released a lot of people are holidaying and testing rather than just playing the game.

We most certainly do appreciate the feedback given to us, especially when it's done as constructively and detailed as this thread is.

I appreciate there are some instances where people are producing ludicrous experiments to make complaints (one springs to mind where a guy sold his whole team to see how well his greys did.....) but there are some holidayed experiments that are not only useful but are also perfectly understandable.

Take for example the guy who posted about the decreasing quality of regens; i personally had seen a handful of threads stating that people thought the regens were of a lower quality than they should be, and in every case there was a response from someone from SI (miles, paulC etc) just saying "no there isn't" (or words to that effect); however the experiment that was run showed beyond all resonable doubt that there IS a problem with regens.

So while there are many useless holidayed exp, i think that there are also some equally useful ones. While my post was based only on what i've found through playing the game repeatedly, i would not be so hasty to condemn the holiday experiments.

Not having a go or anything, just trying to justify SOME of the threads on here.

Jopo12
13-12-2007, 17:06
Originally posted by Ched:
So while there are many useless holidayed exp, i think that there are also some equally useful ones. While my post was based only on what i've found through playing the game repeatedly, i would not be so hasty to condemn the holiday experiments.

Hey, there isn't such a thing as useless tests. Those tests aren't only made to show faults, they can surely be telling that there aren't any in a one particular situation http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Maybe they could give people some reason for self examination, I at least want only to know what goes wrong. If it's me, then I'll learn how to do better. If it's the game, then it should be fixed if SI wants people to keep playing FM.

Lyvean
14-12-2007, 00:43
Besides, if SI had a different history as a developer, then things would be different. You bet your ass that I am going to test the game before starting a long term career and investing huge amounts of time on it. If I don't I will find myself hammered by bugs in 2, 3, 4 years time and my whole experience -and time- will have gone to waste.

It is SI's fault that we are testing the game. It's her broken games background that has created the fear.

And some of us are not blind fanboys to play a broken game and be happy about it.

Ched
14-12-2007, 11:41
Originally posted by Lyvean:
Besides, if SI had a different history as a developer, then things would be different. You bet your ass that I am going to test the game before starting a long term career and investing huge amounts of time on it. If I don't I will find myself hammered by bugs in 2, 3, 4 years time and my whole experience -and time- will have gone to waste.

It is SI's fault that we are testing the game. It's her broken games background that has created the fear.

And some of us are not blind fanboys to play a broken game and be happy about it.

You're being a tad dramatic aren't you? The game's hardy "broken", it just needs a bit of work to make it near perfect.

cmontheloknow
14-12-2007, 12:01
It wasn't a comment aimed at anyone in particular and was just in passing that I find it strange that as soon as the game is released a lot of people are holidaying and testing rather than just playing the game.

Maybe the SI testers could take a leaf out of the dedicated fans' books and test the game properly themselves before putting it on the shelves?

neil220779
14-12-2007, 12:12
Just read the original post, don't know how I missed this thread, but heres my comment.

You make very good points,all of which, in my experience, are accurate and have been since FM 2005.

All I wil say is that I seem to have found an easy way around point 1, the transfer fee negotiation process.

e.g.
I'm Inter. I bid 18 million for Quaresma of Porto.
Porto come back and want 21.5 million plus a 10% sell on.
I bid 21 million, with no sell on clause and make the offer non-negotiatable.
Porto accepts.

I use the "non-negotiatable" option all the time when a club comes back to me with an acceptable offer. I can almost always drop the sell on clauses and offer slightly less money than is being asked for. The example I gave is a perfect one.

Ched
14-12-2007, 17:13
Originally posted by neil220779:
Just read the original post, don't know how I missed this thread, but heres my comment.

You make very good points,all of which, in my experience, are accurate and have been since FM 2005.

All I wil say is that I seem to have found an easy way around point 1, the transfer fee negotiation process.

e.g.
I'm Inter. I bid 18 million for Quaresma of Porto.
Porto come back and want 21.5 million plus a 10% sell on.
I bid 21 million, with no sell on clause and make the offer non-negotiatable.
Porto accepts.

I use the "non-negotiatable" option all the time when a club comes back to me with an acceptable offer. I can almost always drop the sell on clauses and offer slightly less money than is being asked for. The example I gave is a perfect one.

Recently i've found the "non-negotiable" option to cause clubs to refuse all and often raise the price.
E.g. i was recently after ribery, my scout said £28m, so i bid £25, the AI asked for £30, i made a non-negotiable offer of £28m. The AI said no. I then made a non negotiable offer of £30m, the AI said no, i then made a non-negotiable offer of £40m.....the AI said no, finally i made a negotiable offer of £28m...the AI accepted. Anybody else think this is a little dodgy?

Raúl Alfonso
14-12-2007, 23:29
I agree with the original posts. And yes, the repeated enquiries are super annoying. The good thing however, is that you can choose to ignore those enquiries. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ched
16-12-2007, 15:34
Originally posted by Raúl Alfonso:
I agree with the original posts. And yes, the repeated enquiries are super annoying. The good thing however, is that you can choose to ignore those enquiries. http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I know we CAN ignore them but should we HAVE to?

Mygel
16-12-2007, 17:20
I doubt that this can be fixed in a patch as the problem lies in the entire system which needs to be reviewed. The problem, IMO, is not about that I cant sell player X or Y, but rather a simulation of the real transfer system that exist in football which in the game is not realistic. There is no negotations in the game, the AI makes illogic decisions and actions within the system and the system is based on reputation rather than funding as IRL.

I find the actual gameplay keeps improving and getting more and more realistic while this important area has been neglected for years. And I agree with Ched that much time seem to be spent on features that, unfortunately, I believe is unwanted or of less interest to most players.

Radzkal
16-12-2007, 19:33
totally agree. no disrespect to SI tho. what's weird is some teams who have the money dont want to spend a few millions on a good player but wud spend a whole lot more for someone mediocre.

edved
17-12-2007, 10:45
I just have to agree with everything in this thread. I've been playing the game for 15 years or so - since the earliest editions and for the last couple of years I find it harder and harder to get excited about the game. And it's all due to one thing: The fact that the transfer system in the game is so bad that it ruins everything.

As you all say, this has been a problem for years, but absolutely nothing has changed unfortunately.

It really shouldn't be that difficult to realise that the buying and selling of players is the most important area of the game - it's what makes the game enjoyable. Now you it's so flawed that it's hard to believe.

I'm not even mad anymore - I'm just sad, disappointed and about to give up and let FM become just a fond memory and not the time consuming enjoyable game of the present.

haven't been a regular at this forum, as I've always preferred to play the game instead of using hour after hour reading threads, so I don't know all that much about the SI-user interaction. But I find it very odd that only Ter (who is obviously not the right guy to take the discussion) has replied for SI.

Maybe it's been debated and answered in other threads, but we all know it hasn't been fixed - not for a long time.

The worst thing about it all is that we are just begging for a complete revamp of the transfer area of the game - so it at least is enjoyable again. I can't even believe I'm saying this, but here goes: "I'm even ready to live with the fact that I year after year pay a lot of money for a game that is filled with bugs and have to be patched several times and is still far from bug-free. I'll live with that if you just make the game enjoyable again".

Thumbs up to everyone at this forum to use countless hours trying to get SI to listen. Hopefully someday - before I'm too old - the game will be back to the game I knew and loved..

Mister Z
18-12-2007, 03:11
One thing that can be fix relatively easily, is to lower the threshold between player squad status and current club reputation vs bidding player squad status and club reputation.

Listed players should them by easily tempted by a regular or key status at lower rep. team.

Ched
18-12-2007, 03:12
Originally posted by edved:
I just have to agree with everything in this thread. I've been playing the game for 15 years or so - since the earliest editions and for the last couple of years I find it harder and harder to get excited about the game. And it's all due to one thing: The fact that the transfer system in the game is so bad that it ruins everything.

As you all say, this has been a problem for years, but absolutely nothing has changed unfortunately.

It really shouldn't be that difficult to realise that the buying and selling of players is the most important area of the game - it's what makes the game enjoyable. Now you it's so flawed that it's hard to believe.

I'm not even mad anymore - I'm just sad, disappointed and about to give up and let FM become just a fond memory and not the time consuming enjoyable game of the present.

haven't been a regular at this forum, as I've always preferred to play the game instead of using hour after hour reading threads, so I don't know all that much about the SI-user interaction. But I find it very odd that only Ter (who is obviously not the right guy to take the discussion) has replied for SI.

Maybe it's been debated and answered in other threads, but we all know it hasn't been fixed - not for a long time.

The worst thing about it all is that we are just begging for a complete revamp of the transfer area of the game - so it at least is enjoyable again. I can't even believe I'm saying this, but here goes: "I'm even ready to live with the fact that I year after year pay a lot of money for a game that is filled with bugs and have to be patched several times and is still far from bug-free. I'll live with that if you just make the game enjoyable again".

Thumbs up to everyone at this forum to use countless hours trying to get SI to listen. Hopefully someday - before I'm too old - the game will be back to the game I knew and loved..

Got to agree with everything said here, i just hope that SI pull their finger out for FM09 and stop wasting their time with "new" features and anti-piracy software that targets legitimate users.

jkebab
18-12-2007, 03:50
I've been complaining about this for years but was completely ignored by the SI fanboys who said it was 'realistic'. blah blah blah

Well it's not, bottom line the AI is just plain stupid!

Ched
19-12-2007, 12:04
Originally posted by jkebab:
I've been complaining about this for years but was completely ignored by the SI fanboys who said it was 'realistic'. blah blah blah

Well it's not, bottom line the AI is just plain stupid!

I suspect that the AI is the cause of many of the problems people have with the game, but it probably would take more effort to fix than SI deem worthy. Pitty.

endtime
20-12-2007, 07:57
I even received £28m for van der Vaart from Man Utd (who never played him and then sold him back to me for £10.75m).

Pretty realistic for me, as I was upgrading the squad and, thus, better players were coming in than going out.

You mean signing someone for 28 million pounds and never playing him is pretty realistic? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Zymurgy
20-12-2007, 10:19
In reality, the AI has become self aware and taken over at SI

20-12-2007, 11:06
Originally posted by endtime:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I even received £28m for van der Vaart from Man Utd (who never played him and then sold him back to me for £10.75m).

Pretty realistic for me, as I was upgrading the squad and, thus, better players were coming in than going out.

You mean signing someone for 28 million pounds and never playing him is pretty realistic? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well SWP only cost 24-ish and he hasn't exactly been a regular. Not that I disagree that transfer fees in FM08 are getting stupid.

Though I think it has much to do with finances, it's just too easy to keep your clubs rich and that causes transfer budgets to go over the top in later seasons.

Ched
24-12-2007, 12:16
Originally posted by AnalcoolicA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by endtime:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I even received £28m for van der Vaart from Man Utd (who never played him and then sold him back to me for £10.75m).

Pretty realistic for me, as I was upgrading the squad and, thus, better players were coming in than going out.

You mean signing someone for 28 million pounds and never playing him is pretty realistic? http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well SWP only cost 24-ish and he hasn't exactly been a regular. Not that I disagree that transfer fees in FM08 are getting stupid.

Though I think it has much to do with finances, it's just too easy to keep your clubs rich and that causes transfer budgets to go over the top in later seasons. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Must agree that the occasionally dodgy financial model is the cause of many of the problems, but it doesn't really explain the first or second season transfers.

Just had a new hilarious transfer, summer 2008, Arsene Wenger, at arsenal spends £24m on.......reyes, why oh why oh why

lawd
26-12-2007, 07:24
Great thread, totally agree with everything said.

I hope SI realise we are not trying to take the game apart, but as we all play it loads we, surely, would be the best people to look at when trying to find flaws in the game. The transfer system being a major one.

Good topic this, constructively thought out too.

Kill Rock Stars
26-12-2007, 09:33
just saw arsenal spend £33m on an uncapped uruguayan 24 year old who'd played 12 games for inter the previous season

T-Bag
26-12-2007, 09:55
Another example from my game:

Offered a strike worth 7.5m out for 5m. No clubs are interested at all.

The next day I transfer list him. Now 4 clubs are interested. I offer him for 7.5m and 3 clubs bid and I sell him for 2.5m more than I offered him out for 3 days earlier!

E
27-12-2007, 15:11
Originally posted by T-Bag:
Another example from my game:

Offered a strike worth 7.5m out for 5m. No clubs are interested at all.

The next day I transfer list him. Now 4 clubs are interested. I offer him for 7.5m and 3 clubs bid and I sell him for 2.5m more than I offered him out for 3 days earlier!

while i agree with much of the OP, isn't this particular example because the player's wage demands are reduced when he feels like he isn't wanted (i.e. is transfer listed) by his club?

gubbs
27-12-2007, 15:14
Absolutely. Couldn't agree more.

I have been providing feedback on the issue of transfers (i.e. the fact you can't sell anyone for market value or better) for over FOUR YEARS.

gubbs
27-12-2007, 15:16
Originally posted by edved:
I just have to agree with everything in this thread. I've been playing the game for 15 years or so - since the earliest editions and for the last couple of years I find it harder and harder to get excited about the game. And it's all due to one thing: The fact that the transfer system in the game is so bad that it ruins everything.

As you all say, this has been a problem for years, but absolutely nothing has changed unfortunately.

It really shouldn't be that difficult to realise that the buying and selling of players is the most important area of the game - it's what makes the game enjoyable. Now you it's so flawed that it's hard to believe.

I'm not even mad anymore - I'm just sad, disappointed and about to give up and let FM become just a fond memory and not the time consuming enjoyable game of the present.

haven't been a regular at this forum, as I've always preferred to play the game instead of using hour after hour reading threads, so I don't know all that much about the SI-user interaction. But I find it very odd that only Ter (who is obviously not the right guy to take the discussion) has replied for SI.

Maybe it's been debated and answered in other threads, but we all know it hasn't been fixed - not for a long time.

The worst thing about it all is that we are just begging for a complete revamp of the transfer area of the game - so it at least is enjoyable again. I can't even believe I'm saying this, but here goes: "I'm even ready to live with the fact that I year after year pay a lot of money for a game that is filled with bugs and have to be patched several times and is still far from bug-free. I'll live with that if you just make the game enjoyable again".

Thumbs up to everyone at this forum to use countless hours trying to get SI to listen. Hopefully someday - before I'm too old - the game will be back to the game I knew and loved..

I too used to play with Ian Rush up front and Martin O'Neil in DC position.

http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

T-Bag
27-12-2007, 15:42
Originally posted by E:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by T-Bag:
Another example from my game:

Offered a strike worth 7.5m out for 5m. No clubs are interested at all.

The next day I transfer list him. Now 4 clubs are interested. I offer him for 7.5m and 3 clubs bid and I sell him for 2.5m more than I offered him out for 3 days earlier!

while i agree with much of the OP, isn't this particular example because the player's wage demands are reduced when he feels like he isn't wanted (i.e. is transfer listed) by his club? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But would you not agree that me offering this player out to other clubs would give the implication that he is not wanted anyway ?

In addition to that as no one actually bid for him they never discussed terms with him so they shouldn't really be aware his wage demands are unrealistic. On top of that the 2.3m saved on the transfer fee would have paid the extra wages!

I do take your point as valid though but I don't think the transfer system is intelligent enough to take into account what you are suggesting.

bojanfan
28-12-2007, 05:27
I agree. SI is rich as hell and have a huge development team, yet we've been dealing with the same problems in the game for the last 10 years.
You guys suck!!!!! you are HORRIBLE game developers!!!! Truly abismal. awful. terrible.

tmolvik
28-12-2007, 05:57
Bojanfan: wow.. Are you even old enough to play this game?? Nice to se constructive people in these forums.. Finally a thread which actually have been quite interesting, and then people like you bring it back to kindergarde level again..

Rb
28-12-2007, 06:04
Originally posted by bojanfan:
I agree. SI is rich as hell and have a huge development team, yet we've been dealing with the same problems in the game for the last 10 years.
You guys suck!!!!! you are HORRIBLE game developers!!!! Truly abismal. awful. terrible.

You're wrong in every aspect of that post. Please go away, and think before you post.

Rico73
28-12-2007, 06:49
Back to the post guys! The 'Transfer' system has been an issue for a while now as we all know, it would be nice to get some sort of progress report from SI on it. As is mentioned by the majority of posts in this thread it is virtually impossible to sell a player you feel you don't need. In my M.U. game I offered Saha to clubs for free and no-one was interested! A club such as 'Boro would have bitten my hand off irl!

chachi
28-12-2007, 11:23
Excellent thread with some great posts. I have been playing this game for around ten years now and have always been a massive fan, but i have recently become very disillusioned by the game and its makers.

I agree 100% about the transfer issue, you are expected to pay way over the odds for players you want, and the players you no longer need, even if they are seasoned internationals, cant be given away for nothing!

Its almost understantable that you would be expected to pay alot of money for a player who is a key component of a team (as i would expect an AI team to do the same for any of my players) but some of the asking prices are just ridiculous. What annoys me the most is when it comes to trying to sell your players (like the above example where someone couldnt get rid of Saha even for the grand fee of £0), this is so unrealistic its untrue, even quality international players cannot be sold for any kind of decent return.

As the game popularity has increased the game quality has regressed, its mind blowing to think that things that worked fine in previous editions have actually gone wrong in the new releases, the main example being "player registration" for those unaware of this issue it basically makes any leagues where player registration is required almost unplayable, as you lose all your players in the B teams (reserve) and C teams (under 19's). There are dozens of threads regarding this issue (both pre and post 8.0.1 patch) yet the problem has not been fixed, even though SI stated it has been noted and even stated the issue had been resolved in the patch, which it obviously has not been!

like they say if it aint broke dont try to fix it, and when things like the transfer system and match engine are falling apart and bordering broken, do more then apply a touch of polyfiller!!!

As it has been stated above by others SI are more concerned with selling the game and attracting new customers then looking after its bread and butter, loyal and long standing customer base who probably make up over 85% of game sales.

edved
29-12-2007, 07:07
I totally agree with everything you say chachi.

Disillusioned is really the accurate word to describe the situation. When I last posted I had only just begun my first game in FM08 and I hadn't encountered the registration bug yet.

As I almost always play with Real Madrid in La Liga I of courseran into this massive problem halfway through the first season and it completely ruined the game.

Not only had the game lost 50% of its fun already due to the absolutely broken transfer system we've all been discussing in this thread and complaining about for years, but now I've finally had the unfortune of running into one of these famous bugs which ruins the last 50% of the game.

I just can't believe it anymore. Literally hundreds of bugs every freakin' time the game is released - I can't even believe I kept my mouth shut for this long. I don't know if those who read game magazines or reviews have ever read critique of this but I hope someone would draw attention to this issue.

Well, I guess it doesn't help whining, as SI is probably indifferent to all of this.

But it really would be the decent thing to at least reply in a thread like this and let us know if wecan expect the transfer system issue to be sorted out or if they actually believe themselves that everything is just dandy.

But I guess it's just easier to stay away instead of doing the decent thing and start caring. But to us lot that have reached 30 and have long since left the school yard, the absense of a genuine debate on this issue - involving SI - is really mind puzzling to say the least.

If SI doesn't deliver soon I hope another decent football manager game will emerge - I at least won't hesitate in cheating on my old mistress CM/FM, as she has gotten tired and ugly of late..

Starr_Man5
29-12-2007, 17:29
This thread certainly is an eye-opener. Sort of "Accepting the truth".
I'm still playing FM07 at the minute and the transfer system has to be the most infuriating thing about the game.
Cannot sell players for love nor money, it's so difficult it's embarrassingly stupid.

Example: I'm playing as Liverpool and decide that I'd like to increase my Transfer budget in order to buy Vicente from Valencia (Who I know the ******* AI will only sell for approx. £27M).
So I put Peter Crouch up for sale at face Value £9.5M to begin with.
After a few weeks of unsurprising frustration, and no offers, I lower his asking price to £5M.
A week later still no offers, so I lower AGAIN to £4M and "Offer to Clubs"...

I get three clubs saying they aren't interested, one club saying the offer "Doesn't represent value for money" and one club (Lyon, IIRC) offering £500K up front and £3.2M over 24 months (Or something completely stupid like that, so don't quote me on it!)

Now I don't care what your personal opinion is of Peter Crouch, the fact is he is an England International with a remarkably prolific record at international level. The majority of clubs in the Premier League ALONE would take your bloody hand off if you were to offer him for £4/5M, but in FM it's just odd, like nobody has any money or like buying players isn't really part of clubs' agenda, I dunno...

I totally agree with every single one of the OP's points. And it's something that, sadly, still needs significant work.

Ched
30-12-2007, 11:14
Originally posted by Starr_Man5:
This thread certainly is an eye-opener. Sort of "Accepting the truth".
I'm still playing FM07 at the minute and the transfer system has to be the most infuriating thing about the game.
Cannot sell players for love nor money, it's so difficult it's embarrassingly stupid.

Example: I'm playing as Liverpool and decide that I'd like to increase my Transfer budget in order to buy Vicente from Valencia (Who I know the ******* AI will only sell for approx. £27M).
So I put Peter Crouch up for sale at face Value £9.5M to begin with.
After a few weeks of unsurprising frustration, and no offers, I lower his asking price to £5M.
A week later still no offers, so I lower AGAIN to £4M and "Offer to Clubs"...

I get three clubs saying they aren't interested, one club saying the offer "Doesn't represent value for money" and one club (Lyon, IIRC) offering £500K up front and £3.2M over 24 months (Or something completely stupid like that, so don't quote me on it!)

Now I don't care what your personal opinion is of Peter Crouch, the fact is he is an England International with a remarkably prolific record at international level. The majority of clubs in the Premier League ALONE would take your bloody hand off if you were to offer him for £4/5M, but in FM it's just odd, like nobody has any money or like buying players isn't really part of clubs' agenda, I dunno...

I totally agree with every single one of the OP's points. And it's something that, sadly, still needs significant work.

One of the most amusing responses to the "offer to club" thing i had the other day. I offered benayoun to clubs for £0, and in response i got a number of enquiries....a bit strange when all i had asked for was 0, but i responded to the enquiries with a demand of £0. All 6 of the clubs refused. Why do clubs bother enquiring for a player who they value at less than £0???? Unless i'm greatly mistaken there isn't an option to give them money AND the player!

zeke
30-12-2007, 11:46
Excellent and constructive post here.

The transfer system really needs to be fixed.

There was no problems in CM01/02 and that was actually one of the main points that kept intrest in longterm games.

snootyjim
30-12-2007, 13:46
Any Manchester United or Everton fans will no doubt remember the circumstances under which Phil Neville conducted his transfer...

More or less, Neville said he fancied a move elsewhere, Ferguson picked up the phone to David Moyes, and before Ferguson's even finished his sentence Moyes is getting in touch with the chairman to arrange a fee. It would be much the same if Peter Crouch, Darren Fletcher, etc were made available. Most clubs in the Premiership would be more than happy to put £5-8m in to capture the signing. Only recently I had to give Ji-Sung Park mutual termination because nobody would sign him.

Then there's the other thing...

AI Clubs Lacking Intelligence

A while back I was trying to get shut of some members of the youth team, nothing special but still all worth decent amounts. A club came in with a loan offer, which I thought was fine. But I wanted to get shut of the lad, so I put in an option to buy clause for £200k, returned the offer, and waited for a response.

Unbelievably, they responded with a 'not interested' and ended all communications. I'd given them a clause on top of what they wanted, only beneficial, and they'd refused. It was completely ridiculous tbh. It's a pity, because it's one of those things that just ruins the sense of realism.

Starr_Man5
30-12-2007, 15:43
There just seems to be "No Life" in the transfer market in FM.
In real life the transfer market is a fast and furious place with players moving around all over the place for sometimes vastly inflated fees. But in FM that simply doesn't happen - FM is like a Cocoon film or something.
"Slows Ville"

"....**** sake just ****ing buy some ****ing players off me you incompetent ****ing *******."

To be honest, what I've been doing lately is pre-editing the DB so the players I know I'll want to get rid of will move to the teams I assume would want to buy them, a few days into a new game, for the price they'd be likely to go for in todays market. It feels like I'm ruining the game by "Cheating" like that, but I simply can't get shot of players any other way, sadly.

cabello
30-12-2007, 21:01
Initially, I was irked by the lack of response by SI. It took close to two weeks before Ter acknowledged the existence of this thread, but by his own admittance, he is not the one responsible for this.

My next obvious question is, can we get the people "in the know" at SI to kindly response to this thread?

Or is non accountability a corporate virtue at SI, and we wait till FM09 to see if there has been any changes to this flawed transfer system?

baq22
31-12-2007, 00:25
since fm 2007 now playn 2008, i try to sell saha at a loower price and mmmm no one wants him , i tried to sell him for 0 and the same thing , non

Wlv
31-12-2007, 06:32
Really good posts on this thread, agree with most the points.

Would really like to see the transfer details more centralised.

For example, at the moment, if we scout a player, we get told that we may need to bid x amount.

Why isn't this on the main transfer screen?

Would be nice to get further information here, like a rating of the AI/User Managers transfer stats. (Easy to buy from/haggler/doesnt sell).

Regarding contracts, as it stands, irl you generally invite the player you are negotiating with to come look at your stadium, training grounds etc, would nice to see this integrated a bit more.

I think the players need to be able to take more things into consideration, such as the teams potential, the boardroom, how the team has grown in the past few years and so on.

Negatrev
31-12-2007, 07:44
Originally posted by Wlv:
Really good posts on this thread, agree with most the points.

Would really like to see the transfer details more centralised.

For example, at the moment, if we scout a player, we get told that we may need to bid x amount.

Why isn't this on the main transfer screen?

Would be nice to get further information here, like a rating of the AI/User Managers transfer stats. (Easy to buy from/haggler/doesnt sell).

Regarding contracts, as it stands, irl you generally invite the player you are negotiating with to come look at your stadium, training grounds etc, would nice to see this integrated a bit more.

I think the players need to be able to take more things into consideration, such as the teams potential, the boardroom, how the team has grown in the past few years and so on.

In the past, players have joined me saying it was because of my great training facilities. It's just they mostly say to join a successful or well supported club so you don't notice they actually had different motivations.

From this I believe they do take some of those things into consideration.

Wlv
31-12-2007, 07:49
^^ Think i've had that once or twice in the lower leagues in 07, not seen it in 08 yet!

If it is taken into consideration, would be nice if its shown as well!

Ched
31-12-2007, 11:23
Originally posted by cabello:
Or is non accountability a corporate virtue at SI, and we wait till FM09 to see if there has been any changes to this flawed transfer system?

Worryingly this is looking like the case http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Maybe someone (with appropriate knowledge) will grace us with an opinion f what they think (or maybe even know??) will be done or could be done for FM09, as it is, all we're left with is speculation.

Taffytoffee
31-12-2007, 12:24
What about instead of taking players on trial or just after being able to give them short term deals say for 3 months, so they could play in league and cup games.

Galezhang
31-12-2007, 13:01
Originally posted by T-Bag:


Another issue is players seem perfectly happy to rot in a teams reserves for 3 years rather than join another club,


Unless, of course, if they're on your team. Then they'll be very unhappy if you don't play them regularly in competitive matches even though they're all pure sh*te!

rbnrbn
31-12-2007, 13:17
personally im more concerned with the matchday AI. Sort it out si! My players constantly seem to be tripping themselves up. odd!

endtime
31-12-2007, 14:35
Originally posted by Ched:
Worryingly this is looking like the case http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Maybe someone (with appropriate knowledge) will grace us with an opinion f what they think (or maybe even know??) will be done or could be done for FM09, as it is, all we're left with is speculation.

I don't have the appropriate knowledge http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but personally I'm not really optimistic, since I suppose fixing this issue would probably involve a complete rewrite of both the transfer and the financial module, plus at least a major tweak to the AI. Somehow I don't think this is going to happen; I obviously haven't seen the code of the game, but judging from the problems SI have had with issues like the squad registration bug, it must be a bit of a mess, and introducing such sweeping changes might not be viable, if not downright impossible in the limited timeframe for the next release.

Ched
01-01-2008, 05:25
Originally posted by endtime:
I don't have the appropriate knowledge http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but personally I'm not really optimistic, since I suppose fixing this issue would probably involve a complete rewrite of both the transfer and the financial module, plus at least a major tweak to the AI. Somehow I don't think this is going to happen; I obviously haven't seen the code of the game, but judging from the problems SI have had with issues like the squad registration bug, it must be a bit of a mess, and introducing such sweeping changes might not be viable, if not downright impossible in the limited timeframe for the next release.

I think the limited timeframe is an issue of SI's making. As they did with an earlier CM, why not make FM09 a glorified patch and put a full 2 years (or whats left of 2 years...) of effort into making FM10 a SIGNIFICANTLY improved game, rather than a half finished buggy mess.

I mean, it's not as if FM09 is going to have serious competition, and it's not as if SI are going to make it THAT much better than 08, so why not just skip the token improvements and give us something worth buying??

endtime
01-01-2008, 07:17
Why would they, though? The game sells well regardless of the state it's in. Maybe this year's debacle will hurt sales enough so that SI will put a greater emphasis on testing, but somehow I doubt it.

Besides, would you pay a full price for a game that is only a glorified patch? I mean, when you think about it, we should be getting a relatively bug-free game without having to pay for it twice.

Plus, I imagine SI have an obligation in their contract with Sega which says that they must release a new iteration every year, etc. I don't think the publisher would take kindly to SI saying "we'll need to take a break from FM, so no bestseller this year while you pay our wages, sorry".

SI seem to have painted themselves into a corner
regarding the fixing old bugs vs. implementing new features issue; most, or at least some of the new features will not be working properly in the release version, which means more bugs to fix. Then there will be things that were working properly in the previous version, or even in the previous patch, but are somehow broken now. This just leaves a mounting number of issues to take care of, while the timeframe remains the same. Inevitably some cracks will be just papered over or downright ignored. I don't really see a way out of this http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ched
01-01-2008, 17:03
Originally posted by endtime:

Besides, would you pay a full price for a game that is only a glorified patch? I mean, when you think about it, we should be getting a relatively bug-free game without having to pay for it twice.



if it was a bug free version of FM08 (and i mean properly bug free) then i would quite happily pay for it. Unfortunately i seem to be in the minority, most want new features even at the expense of quality http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

turnip
01-01-2008, 17:41
Originally posted by cabello:
Initially, I was irked by the lack of response by SI. It took close to two weeks before Ter acknowledged the existence of this thread, but by his own admittance, he is not the one responsible for this.

My next obvious question is, can we get the people "in the know" at SI to kindly response to this thread?

Or is non accountability a corporate virtue at SI, and we wait till FM09 to see if there has been any changes to this flawed transfer system?

Not the best post I've read all week.

I'm guessing a large part of the reason that SI haven't responded here (except Ter) is the reason stated in Miles' stickied post; the forums aren't a very nice place to visit most of the time. And with the responses I've seen when SI do post in topics, I'm not surprised.

And you assume that silence = non-accountability? That's just stupid. If SI were to announce any changes they're planning for FM09, that gives their competitors months of advance notice to change their own products. Not likely.

DeathSpawn
01-01-2008, 19:05
Originally posted by turnip:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
Initially, I was irked by the lack of response by SI. It took close to two weeks before Ter acknowledged the existence of this thread, but by his own admittance, he is not the one responsible for this.

My next obvious question is, can we get the people "in the know" at SI to kindly response to this thread?

Or is non accountability a corporate virtue at SI, and we wait till FM09 to see if there has been any changes to this flawed transfer system?

Not the best post I've read all week.

I'm guessing a large part of the reason that SI haven't responded here (except Ter) is the reason stated in Miles' stickied post; the forums aren't a very nice place to visit most of the time. And with the responses I've seen when SI do post in topics, I'm not surprised.

And you assume that silence = non-accountability? That's just stupid. If SI were to announce any changes they're planning for FM09, that gives their competitors months of advance notice to change their own products. Not likely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

people come here and complain and wait for an answer from SI, most of times SI never answers anything, so it obvious people next time will be agressive because we complain and SI doesnt give a s*** because they will always sell lots of FM copies.
look at the fixtures bug in which our players go to internationa duty in champs league final and league cup final, this bug has been for years in FM, i never saw SI giving an answer and year after year the bug is still in game, why wouldnt we be angry with this situation???
i'll give another example of SI taking too long to answer: i've been in this forum since 25 October 2005 and only in this year the researcher from my country showed up on the data thread. of course there was flaming to him in previouse years, he never showed up back then

aenariel
01-01-2008, 20:35
Originally posted by turnip:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
Initially, I was irked by the lack of response by SI. It took close to two weeks before Ter acknowledged the existence of this thread, but by his own admittance, he is not the one responsible for this.

My next obvious question is, can we get the people "in the know" at SI to kindly response to this thread?

Or is non accountability a corporate virtue at SI, and we wait till FM09 to see if there has been any changes to this flawed transfer system?

Not the best post I've read all week.

I'm guessing a large part of the reason that SI haven't responded here (except Ter) is the reason stated in Miles' stickied post; the forums aren't a very nice place to visit most of the time. And with the responses I've seen when SI do post in topics, I'm not surprised.

And you assume that silence = non-accountability? That's just stupid. If SI were to announce any changes they're planning for FM09, that gives their competitors months of advance notice to change their own products. Not likely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Stating "we've read your opinions and we're working on it" would suffice here. By not replying, it's like "we don't give a damn". And soon people will stop suggesting stuff because there's simply no feedback on what they suggest, be it good or bad.
I, for example, really do not feel the drive to suggest anything anymore, because I know it will fall in this forums' chaotic state ATM and no one will even read it, if most.

> And that's why I feel that a suggestion forum, heavily moderated, is a must if SI wants to keep getting proper feedback from their users/clients.


This thread is a very important one and I just hope it doesn't simply "die" because no one bothers to acknowledge it.

milamber
01-01-2008, 20:52
I've discovered an annoying Transfer-related bug.

When I enquire about a player (let's say he's worth about 1 million). AI club says they'll accept 1.2 million. I click on Submit Offer. They counter with a higher demand. And it keeps going on like this until I give up.

Forgive me if my memory is wrong, but in previous games didn't we just click on Accept Offer.

The new "fluid" negotiation system where you submit an offer based on the enquiry reply opens a can of unnecessary worms.

Seagulls Forever
01-01-2008, 21:29
My 2c worth:-

1. The transfer system doesn't really work, much as has been said before in this thread so there's no need to repeat it.

2. Relating this to the "these forums" topic stickied for the last three months. Miles asks to end the pithy one-liners etc. Presumably he wants nice long posts where people have taken the time to post constructively. We get just such a post here and Ter's reply amounts to "don't test it, play it" or "you sad bugger get a life", and the always patronising "complex code" line.

SI need to decide that the purpose of these forums is.

Ackter
01-01-2008, 21:31
Transfer system needs a massive re-do imo.

Seagulls Forever
01-01-2008, 21:36
I wonder.. do we have anyone here who could provide an insight as to how it's done in the real world? It would be interesting to compare the FM way with the real way. On the other hand the real way might make for a crap game mechanic. Real does not always equal fun. Oh well, judgement will come if/when someone can deliver the aforementioned.

Ackter
01-01-2008, 21:38
Well in real life the manager approaches the chairman and the chairman does all the work main.

That really would be crap.

Seagulls Forever
01-01-2008, 21:43
Originally posted by Ackter:
Well in real life the manager approaches the chairman and the chairman does all the work main.

That really would be crap.

Depends on the club surely? Some managers are more hands-on than others, otherwise George Graham wouldn't have been in trouble over bungs etc.

That said, if that is the case then it'd be crap. At which point one has to consider a better mechanic from a gaming perspective rather than a pure realism perspective, while still producing sensible results.

Ackter
01-01-2008, 21:53
These days any sort of direct hands-on interaction with managers will be rare - certain clubs will do it different, especially lower down the leagues, but it's changed a lot over the last ten years.

Seagulls Forever
01-01-2008, 22:11
Originally posted by Ackter:
These days any sort of direct hands-on interaction with managers will be rare - certain clubs will do it different, especially lower down the leagues, but it's changed a lot over the last ten years.

Hmm.. to be honest I'd not trust SI to produce something that changes as you go through the leagues, and anyway there'd be no real fun in that. Why oh why oh why oh why can't SI just write AI that knows how to haggle? That simple adjustment would make lots of us happy, even without the complete overhaul the whole thing needs.

Ackter
01-01-2008, 22:13
It's time there really was an overhaul - it's been too similar for too long.

Seagulls Forever
01-01-2008, 22:30
Originally posted by Ackter:
It's time there really was an overhaul - it's been too similar for too long.

True.. that said there are many problems that have been persistent across many versions of CM/FM and show no signs of being fixed. This is one of them and to be honest I don't have any great hope that it will be fixed in FM09, mainly because people will still buy it.

That said, I think SI are starting to lose the goodwill of the gaming press (eg PC Zone's review was markedly less positive than their usual gushing praise) and it seems that the tide is turning somewhat. While the competition is not world-class yet I'd classify the opponents as having a championship CA and a PA of 190 where FM might be an old timer playing for Arsenal who has had one too many injuries with CA dropping like a stone, but who doesn't realise that the kids are going to overtake him soon. Oh hell that was crap but you get the point.

I think it's simply become too big a game for SI to handle properly, and perhaps also they have failed to get the right people in with the right skills to some degree. If you want I'll go into that further but I won't just now as I don't wish to further derail the topic.

crazyrap465
01-01-2008, 22:58
i've just skimmed through this thread, so forgive me if i beat a dead horse, but AI owned players cost too much imo. the AI is also willing to throw ridiculous cash at other AI clubs, but is extremely stingy in bidding for my players.

endtime
02-01-2008, 04:39
Originally posted by crazyrap465:
the AI is also willing to throw ridiculous cash at other AI clubs, but is extremely stingy in bidding for my players.

I've found that the AI is willing to pay even 20-30 times the automatic valuation of a player, but only in installments. It's also hard to attract any attention to good players in small leagues, unless you offer them around, which is a bit silly.

cabello
02-01-2008, 06:36
Originally posted by aenariel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turnip:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cabello:
Initially, I was irked by the lack of response by SI. It took close to two weeks before Ter acknowledged the existence of this thread, but by his own admittance, he is not the one responsible for this.

My next obvious question is, can we get the people "in the know" at SI to kindly response to this thread?

Or is non accountability a corporate virtue at SI, and we wait till FM09 to see if there has been any changes to this flawed transfer system?

Not the best post I've read all week.

I'm guessing a large part of the reason that SI haven't responded here (except Ter) is the reason stated in Miles' stickied post; the forums aren't a very nice place to visit most of the time. And with the responses I've seen when SI do post in topics, I'm not surprised.

And you assume that silence = non-accountability? That's just stupid. If SI were to announce any changes they're planning for FM09, that gives their competitors months of advance notice to change their own products. Not likely. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Stating "we've read your opinions and we're working on it" would suffice here. By not replying, it's like "we don't give a damn". And soon people will stop suggesting stuff because there's simply no feedback on what they suggest, be it good or bad.
I, for example, really do not feel the drive to suggest anything anymore, because I know it will fall in this forums' chaotic state ATM and no one will even read it, if most.

> And that's why I feel that a suggestion forum, heavily moderated, is a must if SI wants to keep getting proper feedback from their users/clients.


This thread is a very important one and I just hope it doesn't simply "die" because no one bothers to acknowledge it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely, aenariel.

Turnip, you do realise that 99.9% of the posts on this thread have been constructive and been made by posters who obviously value/ care about the game enough to come on and list issues which affect their enjoyment of the game. I have read Mile's stickied about the forums, but by no scale of imagination can you lump this thread with some of the other types of abusive threads here in the forums. And if my memory hasn't failed me, I do not believe that anyone here in this thread has subjected Ter to any verbal insults when he replied. So your assumption that SI haven't responded to this particular thread simply to avoid abuse is as you say, "stupid".

The fact that any commercial entity can fail to respond to a valid consumer's complaint after 1 month, 200+ posts and over 9,000 views in a forum which they've set up is nothing short of complete arrogance. The irony is that in most cases, the abusive threads are the ones that get fairly quick responses!

I doubt anyone seriously expects a patch for this transfer issue, given the complexity and timing involved, but a simple acknowledgment and/ or explanation from the powers that are responsible at SI would go a long way in reassuring customers that their views are still valuable and ensuring that the posts here remain constructive.

svg
02-01-2008, 11:27
Let me start by saying that I agree 100% with most of what have been stated in this thread. But I haven't given up on SI just yet. No company has so excellent a track record when it comes to communicating with their customers as SI. So, yes it is disappointing that only Ter has commented this thread, but I'll bet my car that this thread has been noticed. The real question is how much can be done about these problems.

These aren't really new issues. And I fear that the whole transfercode needs rewriting. And with so much of the game needing work, it will be difficult for them to fix all and at the same time get in new features to sell 09 on.

But I do hope they will get this right. Cause the game deserves it :-)

T-Bag
02-01-2008, 12:23
Even if the current system isn't overhauled for FM09 if they could just make it more intelligent it would be much better. The main problem with it is just the strange decisions and total lack of sense with the whole thing.

I'll tell you another story from my game. I was trying to sell a DMC, 27 years old, CA/PA of 160. Good player, playing well but he was just one midfielder too many for me. He became unhappy at not playing enough in my team so I decided to try and move him on.

His value was 7m so I transfer listed him for 4m and offered him out. To my surprise I actually got 3 bids, from Chelsea, Arsenal and Juventus. He turned them all down because he wanted more money. Considering he was unhappy this was possibly slightly unrealistic but nevermind... I offered him out some more but everyone thought he no longer represented value for money.

So eventually I accept a bid of 1.6m from At. Madrid and he signs for them. I then check his sale value using FM scout and it is a whopping 44 MILLION !!

So the highest I can sell this player for is 1.6m but if I want to buy him I have to pay 44m. I know you have to factor in the value to the team etc but even so, it is just way ott.

CowRonaldo
02-01-2008, 13:13
I don't think an overhaul is necessary as long as the transfer AI is improved.

Selling players should be more realistic and AI shouldn't ask for ridiculous prices like 44 mil etc.

The reputation thing has to be fixed too and make it so a player can change their expectations. If a player has played 3 games out of 50 at Man Utd. he'd probably not mind a move to Fulham for example.

carlos1879
02-01-2008, 13:18
good idea there is something in their stats page about how many they have played out of possible appearences, so it should correlate to that say they have played in 5% of games they could have so would be willing to move to a smaller club but make sure it doesn't count periods of injury.

Ched
02-01-2008, 18:01
Originally posted by carlos1879:
good idea there is something in their stats page about how many they have played out of possible appearences, so it should correlate to that say they have played in 5% of games they could have so would be willing to move to a smaller club but make sure it doesn't count periods of injury.

Spot on. I find it mental that players would rather play in chelsea/man utd/arsenal reserve teams for 2 years rather than move to a club like PSV, Lyon, Udinese or even the likes of a wigan/reading. Take a look at djemba djemba, if real life was like FM he'd still be at man utd reserves!

Reider84
02-01-2008, 18:19
I completley agree with the offloading of players, why do clubs not want to buy players off for you or even simply take them off your hands for free especially when they are better than they have in their current squad.

Anyone recognise this scenario?

Your a succesful premiership team, and you've outgrown a certain player, he's not bad and you still play him sometimes but could do with some extra funds so a decent amount for him would be a good bit of business for you.

Lets give an example of someone like James McFadden (Probably a bad example now as I've never personally tried to sell him but you'll get the idea.)

It's a few years in and he's not quite good enough for your Everton side anymore as a first teamer, still 27 or though so plenty of years in him.

1. - Transfer list him, make him not needed and put him in the reserves (Because you know there's no chance of selling him otherwise!!)

2. He's worth 5 million so you think if I can get 2.5 it's not bad business. First of all thought just in case you offer him for 4 million.

3. No interest, lets go with 2.5

4. Still no interest, okay well I guess 1.5 wouldn't be too bad.

5. Nobody wants him for 1.5??? Well I guess half a million will help with the transfer funds.

6. What?? Nobody wants James McFadded for half a million? Not even Championship clubs?? Okay this is just annoying me now so lets just get him off the wage bill. I'll offer him for free

7. No thanks!! So nobody wants him for free, by now your annoyed and just want to get rid of the player that ten minutes ago was a half decent backup member of your squad. Offer him mututal termination

8. Nope I won't be forced out of the club boss, okay fine release you on a free.

9. See you later boss, thanks for the £400,000 in advanced wages

10. So a player you were not even overally keen to sell you've just ended up giving away and spending money to do it!

11. He signs for Middlesborough on a free and is worth 4 million or so and is there best player straight into the first team.

12. Alrighty then!!

Ched
03-01-2008, 03:46
Originally posted by Reider84:
I completley agree with the offloading of players, why do clubs not want to buy players off for you or even simply take them off your hands for free especially when they are better than they have in their current squad.

Anyone recognise this scenario?

Your a succesful premiership team, and you've outgrown a certain player, he's not bad and you still play him sometimes but could do with some extra funds so a decent amount for him would be a good bit of business for you.

Lets give an example of someone like James McFadden (Probably a bad example now as I've never personally tried to sell him but you'll get the idea.)

It's a few years in and he's not quite good enough for your Everton side anymore as a first teamer, still 27 or though so plenty of years in him.

1. - Transfer list him, make him not needed and put him in the reserves (Because you know there's no chance of selling him otherwise!!)

2. He's worth 5 million so you think if I can get 2.5 it's not bad business. First of all thought just in case you offer him for 4 million.

3. No interest, lets go with 2.5

4. Still no interest, okay well I guess 1.5 wouldn't be too bad.

5. Nobody wants him for 1.5??? Well I guess half a million will help with the transfer funds.

6. What?? Nobody wants James McFadded for half a million? Not even Championship clubs?? Okay this is just annoying me now so lets just get him off the wage bill. I'll offer him for free

7. No thanks!! So nobody wants him for free, by now your annoyed and just want to get rid of the player that ten minutes ago was a half decent backup member of your squad. Offer him mututal termination

8. Nope I won't be forced out of the club boss, okay fine release you on a free.

9. See you later boss, thanks for the £400,000 in advanced wages

10. So a player you were not even overally keen to sell you've just ended up giving away and spending money to do it!

11. He signs for Middlesborough on a free and is worth 4 million or so and is there best player straight into the first team.

12. Alrighty then!!

This post pretty much somes up all that is wrong with the transfer system. Can anyone from SI claim this to be realistic???
It's disappointing that SI feel it is acceptable to include clear faults like this in the game, they can't possibly claim they were unaware of this, it's been like this for years and it becomes apparent the moment you start ANY game.

If the SI testers do want a perfect example of this - start a new game as chelsea, and try and sell makelele.....i'm not asking for you to make money from his sale, just try and get rid of him. And then feel free to post a reply here about how you can justify leaving the transfer engine in this state!

DontCallItSoccer
03-01-2008, 04:11
The scenario seems familiar, Reider84, but what sort of time frame are you stipulating? Sometimes it takes a while for clubs to become interested.

Reider84
03-01-2008, 19:33
Originally posted by DontCallItSoccer:
The scenario seems familiar, Reider84, but what sort of time frame are you stipulating? Sometimes it takes a while for clubs to become interested.

Well it depends, sometimes it is over a short period of time which I guess is understandable to some extent (Not really though if the player is of good quality.)

But often I try and get rid of a player for nothing at the start of the game with no success and by the time it gets to the next transfer window in January there is still no interest.

I find it even more frustrating when I can't offload a player for free but manage to get some interest on loan, he goes on loan for a season, performs very well for the team and then still there is no interest. That for me is unexplainable.

allah
04-01-2008, 08:18
i had the experience reider outlined with luka modric.

i signed him for west ham at the beggining of the game. i played him for a couple of seasons and he did fairly well, but i kind of "outgrew" him as i managed to get in a few better players.
therefore i tried to offload him.
he spent 3 years in my reserves transfer listed with asking price £0 and no one was willing to take him off my hands. (yes i did regularly offer him to clubs at £0 price no-one was interersted). I managed to loan him out to genoa for one of those years but despite playing well for them it did not encourage any offers. eventually his contract expired and he was snapped up by valencia.

can anyone tell me it is realistic that a decent versatile attacking midfielder who is of above the average premiereship standard, would not be snapped up if he was offered to clubs for free for several years?

i think part of the problem is the reputation system is not perfect. irl after a year of being in the reserves he would happily move to a team fighting for suvival in the prem. in fm i expect no club of that type would put in a bid because they know they will be rejected. it is the computer equivelent of:

"filter out unrelaistic targets"

this means that a players can be stuck in transfer limbo for several years.

I would also just like to add myself to those who have politely pointed out that it is dissapointing to see no contribution from anyone at si to what has been a polite and constructive critique.(ter excluded as he admits the topic is not his area of expertise).

Ched
05-01-2008, 10:42
Originally posted by allah:
i had the experience reider outlined with luka modric.

i signed him for west ham at the beggining of the game. i played him for a couple of seasons and he did fairly well, but i kind of "outgrew" him as i managed to get in a few better players.
therefore i tried to offload him.
he spent 3 years in my reserves transfer listed with asking price £0 and no one was willing to take him off my hands. (yes i did regularly offer him to clubs at £0 price no-one was interersted). I managed to loan him out to genoa for one of those years but despite playing well for them it did not encourage any offers. eventually his contract expired and he was snapped up by valencia.

can anyone tell me it is realistic that a decent versatile attacking midfielder who is of above the average premiereship standard, would not be snapped up if he was offered to clubs for free for several years?

i think part of the problem is the reputation system is not perfect. irl after a year of being in the reserves he would happily move to a team fighting for suvival in the prem. in fm i expect no club of that type would put in a bid because they know they will be rejected. it is the computer equivelent of:

"filter out unrelaistic targets"

this means that a players can be stuck in transfer limbo for several years.

I would also just like to add myself to those who have politely pointed out that it is dissapointing to see no contribution from anyone at si to what has been a polite and constructive critique.(ter excluded as he admits the topic is not his area of expertise).

I did wonder for some time if there was an AI equivalent of "filter out unrealistic targets" but the amount of times my players have turned down the AI makes me think that this is not the case.

milamber
05-01-2008, 20:32
T-Bag, I've found that too.

If you offer a player and they don't accept the teams' contracts, those same teams no loinger want him. You end up getting about 20-30% of the transfer value you should have gotten.

milamber
05-01-2008, 20:36
This season I needed to make some improvements to my team to challenge for the title

So I just use FMM to expire the player's contract and add a realsitic amount of cash to my bank balance.

Whichever club picks him up, I reduce their bank balance by the same amount.

I only use this as a last resort after trying to use the transfer system. Not suprisingly, I had to do this with 5 of the 7 (decent) players I wanted to get rid of.