League Reputation Non-Static

Do we know if this is being addressed in FM11..

Long term games in smaller countrys can not succeed as you can never attract the top bracket of players no matter how much domestic and european success you have..

So far we have no news about this. SI will probably give us no news about FM11 until the summer, just as they always do it.

If you want to add your vote and your comments you might use the thread in which you'll find a discussion on this already

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=166464

yes but the team's reputation rises, doesn't it? i have the same problem with AEK

Cheers, didnt see that thread!

yes but the team's reputation rises, doesn't it? i have the same problem with AEK

It does, but the league as a whole will remain little competitive. Thus you'll continue to have easy domestic success while your reputation is limited by the low worth of the competitions you are playing in. FM does not reflect the real life rises and falls of some leagues, though I personally don't expect to see that irl in the future as much as it happened in the past.

Cheers, didnt see that thread!

You're welcome mate

I don't understand why so many ppl go on about this, how often irl do you see small leagues suddenly becoming big leagues?? I can't think of one

Its about enjoyment of the game, there are plenty more people who want this in, than those who dont.. Football Manager is a business, It would be a massive appeal, so it should be in.

I don't understand why so many ppl go on about this, how often irl do you see small leagues suddenly becoming big leagues?? I can't think of one

They might not become big big but they can definitely change quite a bit.. Like Ukraine.... Even if cash had something to do with it...

They might not become big big but they can definitely change quite a bit.. Like Ukraine.... Even if cash had something to do with it...

Good shout, Ukraine and Russia would be leagues I would say have increased a fair bit in rev. This is mainly due to the money invested into the game, which in turn made clubs more competitive and go further in Europe. Shakhter and CSKA Moscow come to mind

This feature would really only apply to long term gamers, so most people that don't want it are most likely short term gamers...so it won't affect them.

Yes but Ukraine isn't that big....they just have players who can't get work permits to play in England Spain or Italy. If you get a lot of money with a club that starts off small it can still make quite a bit of difference in the game

Yes but Ukraine isn't that big....they just have players who can't get work permits to play in England Spain or Italy. If you get a lot of money with a club that starts off small it can still make quite a bit of difference in the game

If you compare every league to England or Spain... Italy for example is going down.. Germany is getting stronger than Italy and if things keep going like this France will get past Italy as well..

And I remember writing in my post that those leagues didnt become "big big".

And about what you said you're wrong. Because the game isnt even that realistic as it is. You cant buy players that these clubs can IRL (big spenders from smaller countries) and with some small clubs from bigger leagues you can buy players that they couldnt possibly attract IRL.

If you compare every league to England or Spain... Italy for example is going down.. Germany is getting stronger than Italy and if things keep going like this France will get past Italy as well..

And I remember writing in my post that those leagues didnt become "big big".

And about what you said you're wrong. Because the game isnt even that realistic as it is. You cant buy players that these clubs can IRL (big spenders from smaller countries) and with some small clubs from bigger leagues you can buy players that they couldnt possibly attract IRL.

Sol Campbell to Notts. County transfer comes to mind......

sol campbell to notts. County transfer comes to mind......

?

If you mean this

some small clubs from bigger leagues you can buy players that they couldnt possibly attract IRL.

it isnt what I meant. I meant clubs like Sunderland or even some small club from France or whatever being able to buy really good players from smaller leagues when they are too good for them and have better clubs interested in them...

Ive seen people buying players for Newcastle that.... geez...

Good shout, Ukraine and Russia would be leagues I would say have increased a fair bit in rev. This is mainly due to the money invested into the game, which in turn made clubs more competitive and go further in Europe. Shakhter and CSKA Moscow come to mind

This feature would really only apply to long term gamers, so most people that don't want it are most likely short term gamers...so it won't affect them.

Shakhtar Donetsk are big in Ukraine for one very simple reason, they are bankrolled by Ukraine's richest man, who even built them a new stadium last year irl.

So the reason they are big, is because they have something that already exists within the game, a sugar daddy.

I don't think non static leagues would be a good idea for the simple reason being that for the league to be successful irl and thought better of, they would need more than just 1 club to be successful there in euro competitions time and time again.

In game, managing in a smaller country, you will likely find hat YOU are the only team who is successful there, and that DOESN'T warrant an increase in the rep of the league

In game, managing in a smaller country, you will likely find hat YOU are the only team who is successful there, and that DOESN'T warrant an increase in the rep of the league

100% agreed

My impression that many people believe that their own success should raise the league standard even though they are the only good team in it.

What exists though irl is the issue that whole leagues grow or decline in reputation, not just driven by one team.

Look at where Belgium was in the early to mid-80ies. They could attract top players from Germany who were the #1 league in Europe at that time.

Look at Italy who were # 1 by far in the early 90ies and who are now #4 imho. Or England, nowhere at that time and #1 by now.

That kind of change would be very difficult to model though, so I prefer no changes to clumsily done ones

For me the problem is that league rep caps your clubs rep too severely. If a club from a smaller league win the Champions League several times in a row, their rep should be allowed to be quite high and it certainly shouldn't decline by 3000 at the beginning of every season (if you are very successfull).

For me the problem is that league rep caps your clubs rep too severely. If a club from a smaller league win the Champions League several times in a row, their rep should be allowed to be quite high and it certainly shouldn't decline by 3000 at the beginning of every season (if you are very successfull).

I'm not aware about how exactly the game works here, but I agree with what you say if the caps are too rigid.

I don't think non static leagues would be a good idea for the simple reason being that for the league to be successful irl and thought better of, they would need more than just 1 club to be successful there in euro competitions time and time again.

In game, managing in a smaller country, you will likely find hat YOU are the only team who is successful there, and that DOESN'T warrant an increase in the rep of the league

Not exactly true. I had in FM07 a save with Shakhtar where I won the CL, Dynamo Kyiv won the UEFA Cup and Dnipro reached the UEFA Cup's knockout stages pretty often... This for a few years.. Of course there were no super rich owners and no one wanted to join Dnipro so... I had to use a bunch of super regens to keep winning... :x

And the thing that you cant seem notice is how these leagues can grow even if not a lot. You just keep comparing to the English league so obviously they arent becoming super strong leagues...

Btw last season Shakhtar won the UEFA Cup, Dynamo reached the Semis and Metalist knocked out Sampdoria to reach the last 16 round.

Of course they wont do this every season... (but had the best coefficient in 08/09 )

?

If you mean this

it isnt what I meant. I meant clubs like Sunderland or even some small club from France or whatever being able to buy really good players from smaller leagues when they are too good for them and have better clubs interested in them...

Ive seen people buying players for Newcastle that.... geez...

Yes I see your point but if someone a year ago told you "on my fm game I signed Sol Campbell for Notts County" you would say thats unrealistic and then it happened in real life. When Newcastle make it back to the prem they will be able to buy good caliber players as they held onto most of the current ones who are all of a average/good standard

People are missing the point on this issue, yet again! No one who wants this is saying that Albania should become Europe's next EPL-level league but rather that a certain country/league to have a bit of leeway on its reputation. IRL if a country does well in international club competitions (see Russia, Ukraine) more people are willing to invest! I remember in FM 2007 that the top Russia sides were Lokomotiv Moskow and CSKA Moscow. If you now take a look at who's dominating Russia you find teams such as Rubin Kazan, Dinamo Moscow, Spartak, etc.

Surely some part of that is due to the financial incentive people want to exploit from having more teams playing in Europe.

I'm not really aware that there is a problem as such. FM11 league reps should rise in the way that they do in real life, ie, very very slowly. It takes a LOT of teams in that league to be successful in Europe, not just one performing extremely well.

Look at France. How many near-top players would choose the top French team over a mid-table EPL team like Everton or Spurs or Villa?

When people come on moaning about how they can't attract Messi to FC Plop in the Backwateristani League despite their 10 CL wins in a row, they fail to realise that top players want to play against great sides week in week out, not walk blindfolded through some league with all the quality of the Blue Square Premier. They'll go to Man U for the big challenges of playing against Chelsea and Liverpool, although this sort of illustrious company can tempt players to clubs like Spurs.

Okay, here's the rub. If - and it's a big fat IF - you take a team from the Finnish lower league to the top of their tree, and somehow (FMRTE, signing up as other teams, whatever) go on to win 5 Champions Leagues, there's money coming into that league. What then happens is the Finnish F.A. receive a boost in TV revenue (nothing major, but a fair bit). This money can then help improve the teams a little. When (IF) teams lower down the league start doing well in the Europa league this is when more CL spaces get allocated to Finland (like what happened in Scotland a few years ago). So around 2020 you can start to attract slightly better players - the sort of player who has fallen out of favour at places like Stoke and Burnley, but playing well for the reserves - which boosts the league's rep a tiny bit further. Eventually, in another 10 years or so, you start to attract good Championship players, or maybe loan in some Man U rejects/youths, and if - IF - SI can programme AI managers to see your techniques and road to success, and perhaps follow your lead, THEN the league rep can start to rise properly. This will be around 2030, but you still will NOT attract the very top players to that league. It becomes respectable rather than attractive, a stepping-stone league where great youngsters and fading pros go to make their name, perhaps if you're lucky, on a par with Scotland. To elevate it even further, it will take another decade or two to make any headway into attractiveness, but this is ONLY if the other teams manage become successful in Europe the way YOUR team has.

If this is still a source of frustration, if you don't want FM reps to change in a realistic way, just download FMRTE or something and reprogramme the game to your taste.

But the problem of one team bootstrapping a whole league can be done by a very simple calculation (for a computer that is). First take the starting average reputation for every team in the league (nation if you want) for the previous three years. Then take the average finishing reputation for the same three seasons. Find the percentage deviation from start to finish for each year and aggregate them. Work out the mean and standard deviation of all leagues and then award the increase/decrease in league rep based on how many standard deviations your league is away for the mean change.

There are a few issues with this system, 1) the rep numbers will have to change 1-20 will not be sensitive enough, although 1-10,000 should.

2) I'm not a programmer so I don't know if implementing this across all database sizes will work, whether it will allow created leagues, or how non represented leagues will work.

3) It will be adding onto processing time at every season start date, and there will have to be a single date for doing this across the board (so Summer leagues will find their rep changing mid-season).

4) Reps will be static for the first few years untit the neccessary stats can be compiled (it does't have to be a 3 year average).

There are probably more but I cant see them.

The only serious problem I can see with such a system is no. 2) above, and as I don't know the first thing about writing code I don't know how serious it is.

This thread pops up every now and then, so here's my thoughts...

1) One or two clubs cannot always single-handedly raise a country in prestige - see Scotland (yes, Scotland isn't a country, but I digress). On the other hand, smaller European sides sometimes do single-handedly keep up their reputations with one or two small clubs (Romania perhaps?) giving decent performances in Europe.

2) German sides, although unspectacular in Europe, have given solid performances without embarrassing themselves consistently, which has been the real driving factor of German football rather than Bayern Munich in the Champions League. There are a solid clutch of German teams who could win the Europa League this season, although perhaps not the Champions League.

3) Any sort of calculation should be done over several years. It has taken around 5 years for us to definitively see the Bundesliga gain ground with Serie A in some way.

4) One team's success cannot sustain the nation's reputation in the long-term, but it can have short- and perhaps medium-term effects. Even if, say, TNS did surprisingly well in the Europa League, there would be a short-term interest in Welsh teams as a whole, particularly if Wales gains more European spots. Of course, it is then up to the rest of the Welsh clubs to take advantage and TNS may have to help them out - like perhaps distributing some of their prize money to other teams.

I'm not aware about how exactly the game works here, but I agree with what you say if the caps are too rigid.

The caps ARE league reputation, as far as any experimentation has proved. League reputation simply stops a club from becoming too big for the league.

I really don't feel there's a problem here. I think people see something that a few have deemed a problem, get told about it without investigating, and think "ah! Major problem!".

Look at NepentheZ's Knockbreda side. Neppo kept the two greatest goalscorers of all time in his side (no player has ever scored 1,000 competitive goals IRL, Andrew Smylie scored over 3,000!) despite interest from the continent. His club rep was up to "worldwide", and the general standard of the league had improved massively. He only lost a few regens to better sides, and IIRC could sign pretty much whoever he wanted to- he simply wanted to stick with Northern Irish players.

I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about league reputation, and tbh it works perfectly IMO.