I've Finally put my finger on it

It's been eating away at me since 08. I like to have one tactic and stick with it, personally I don't think that's unrealistic but apparently most others (including SI) do. I haven't played FM for months mainly because I feel a little excluded by the style I feel forced to adopt.

Changing tactics for each game, and often several times during a game is often cited as "more realistic," Ok I'll accept that because many teams do it. However take two teams from opposite ends of the football spectrum, Stoke and Barcelona, both of these teams change very little if anything during a season. Indeed Barcelona haven't changed the way they play for years now and are well on there way to becoming the best team in history. Barcelona are an extreme example but I've used Stoke, you could use Bolton under Big Sam or Arsenal in the invincibles era.

Since October and this latest release I've been blaming my own style but I've come to realise that an AI that can, "learn" your tactics and from then on... that's it you lose, is stupid, everyone has figured out Barcelona's tactics but no team has the players to do anything about them.

I don't see why if I've a perfectly good tactic and decent players why I should have to change things constantly. The game used to cater for both styles, sadly no more.

I don't see this title going back to the past so..... Come on Eidos bring me a proper CM, the way a football sim should be!!!

Not sure what you mean by having only one tactic.

I play the same formation and basic set up in every game. Yes I tweak some things depending on opposition and circumstance but I generally play the same every time. And still have success. I think you are over complicating things for yourself and probably reading way too much from these forums.

But if you really want to play CM, be my guest. Good luck with that.

Of course Barcelona and Stoke change tactics for each game. The overall style will always remain the same, but subtle changes will always be made depending on the opponents, players available and the situation in the match.

Also the AI doesn't learn your tactics, it just changes the way it approaches playing your team depending on how good your team is. If your tactics aren't working now, then most likely your team has got better, or worse and other teams see you differently now.

What do you class as changing tactic?

I use the same tactic shape for every match, but I do change the instructions. Basically I have 3 styles of the same tactic saved and a 4th which is uber attacking.

So if a dumb dumb like me can use the same tactic and win 4 back to back premier titles with Newcastle it must not be the games fault.

Should also point out that the AI doesn't learn how to counter your tactic, they just have done more scouting on you as time goes by, so they know what to expect (more or less) and can (try to) counter. Seems logical to me and is what happens IRL (see Hull for the first 3 months of last years Prem vs Hull now!)

Since October and this latest release I've been blaming my own style but I've come to realise that an AI that can, "learn" your tactics and from then on... that's it you lose, is stupid, everyone has figured out Barcelona's tactics but no team has the players to do anything about them.

I don't see why if I've a perfectly good tactic and decent players why I should have to change things constantly. The game used to cater for both styles, sadly no more.

I don't believe that the AI 'learns' your tactics, it just approaches you differently sometimes depending on the reputation and success you have.

I've used the one tactic with no alterations for 35 years now, from the BSS all the way to the very top. I never make changes going into a match and only ever change things late on if needed.

Of course Barcelona and Stoke change tactics for each game. The overall style will always remain the same, but subtle changes will always be made depending on the opponents, players available and the situation in the match.

Also the AI doesn't learn your tactics, it just changes the way it approaches playing your team depending on how good your team is. If your tactics aren't working now, then most likely your team has got better, or worse and other teams see you differently now.

^ This, and as for your example about Bolton under big Sam, i heard an interview recently where Sam Allardyce admits he changes things every game depending on who they're playing, so that as far as i'm concerned shows you don't quite know how 'tactics' work.

Of course Barcelona and Stoke change tactics for each game.

Both chairman and former manager of Barcelona have said on record "we don't change things, let others adapt to us" I thing I've heard somthing similar from Pulis about Stoke.

Maybe they don't change their style or their general approach but they do change their strategy.

No they don't. Barcelona have not changed anything since Rijkaard took over and signed Davids. Guardiola has kept the same system, just rotated personnel. Their style and approach has remained constant.

as for your example about Bolton under big Sam, i heard an interview recently where Sam Allardyce admits he changes things every game depending on who they're playing, so that as far as i'm concerned shows you don't quite know how 'tactics' work.

I heard similar as well. I know for a fact that Big Sam does change things with Blackburn because I'm a Rovers fan. What I was refering to if you read my post properly, was his time at Bolton after a few years settling on basically one tactic, that worked for the league he was in, and changing very little. I think if he's manager at my club for any length of time he my well do the same.

As for not knowing how tactics work, you're absolutely right I don't, and nor do you as if you did you'd be managing a football club. egotistical sod!

I heard similar as well. I know for a fact that Big Sam does change things with Blackburn because I'm a Rovers fan. What I was refering to if you read my post properly, was his time at Bolton after a few years settling on basically one tactic, that worked for the league he was in, and changing very little. I think if he's manager at my club for any length of time he my well do the same.

As for not knowing how tactics work, you're absolutely right I don't, and nor do you as if you did you'd be managing a football club. egotistical sod!

Yeah, cause only managers can understand tactics.

Was talking about in the game anyway, you're looking too far into it so it becomes complicated. I've only just been understanding it better myself recently, having realised the game can seem more over complicated than it is. You don't have to change too much depending on the team.

I play 4-1-2-1-2 and start every game on the default settings.

The only thing I change is team instructions with 20+ mins left in the game, counter/defend/contain or the attacking equivalents depending on how the game is going.

Getting the 'right' players (nobody gets in my squad with anything less than 10 on all three; teamwork/work rate/determination, don't care how good they are), motivating them and playing them according to their form are my mantras....and I do just fine.

Each to their own and all; but tactics?? Keep It Simple has always worked for me this version and all previous!!

I don't keep everything at default, though i do for individual player instructions.

I have 2 tactics for my team in dafuge's challenge atm - a 4-4-2 that I use for all home games and most away matches and a 5-4-1 that I'm trying to get to work for away match (but its not quite there yet, I can't get the team to attack well enough with it). With each, I only change the players and use touchline instructions.

Sometimes I find that I have bad patches where a series of teams just play good against me, but most of the time I seem to win.

I think most people think of tactic as formation. When they see you need to change tactics for different situations, they think 4-4-2 to a 4-3-3... However, the key is playing long or short, or wide or narrow. Barca switches up whether or not they counter, or if they have a nice slow creative build up. If you have an attacking wide formation, a switch in tactics would be narrow and control... no matter the formation. I think the problem is the idea of just expecting to win and putting the match view on commentary and no high lights to get through a match. I think SI needs to either make more options while setting up tactics or have the ass man suggest more direct changes for beginners, and options that can be switched off for the expert players

Maybe they don't change their style or their general approach but they do change their strategy.

No they don't. Barcelona have not changed anything since Rijkaard took over and signed Davids. Guardiola has kept the same system, just rotated personnel. Their style and approach has remained constant.

Take a read of my post and then re-read yours.

Can't you chaps create your tactics via the wizard and read the explanations for the various strategies? That's your starting point. It's nothing too complicated or difficult in my eyes.

Then maybe you want to also have a look at T&T '10 on the tactics forum. You'll learn more about real life football and FM at the same time.

No they don't. Barcelona have not changed anything since Rijkaard took over and signed Davids. Guardiola has kept the same system, just rotated personnel. Their style and approach has remained constant.

Wrong. One example is messi changing positions for them. Yes, there style is to pass the ball but that doesn't mean they don't change things for certain matches.

Can't you chaps create your tactics via the wizard and read the explanations for the various strategies? That's your starting point. It's nothing too complicated or difficult in my eyes.

Then maybe you want to also have a look at T&T '10 on the tactics forum. You'll learn more about real life football and FM at the same time.

This. Sooner or later someone had to suggest T&T. Good work Crouchy.

This. Sooner or later someone had to suggest T&T. Good work Crouchy.

Agreed, good post.

For multiple releases of FM now, I've always advocated choosing your "core" system, then stick with it. You can then build your team around your chosen tactical system.

Therefore, when it's a system you know and understand, not only does it make it easier to know it's strengths and weakness', but you know what player attributes will suit it.

I don't particularly do anything remarkable or unrealistic with my tactics, but with my approach, I'm always successful.

As dafuge mentioned earlier regarding AI "learning" your tactic then "beating" it. To put that one to rest... it doesn't happen! The more successful you become, the higher your reputation grows, therefore the way any team responds, is simply based on your reputation. You can use a little "kidology" via the media, manager and player comments to influence games, same with team-talks.

Essentially though, what I believe a lot of people might be seeing, is their team do exceptionally well, then opponents start parking the bus. When teams play really defensively, it's often harder to get space for chances. My approach here is to get my team to step back a little and draw them out. That's a minor change that can be made tactically, without any major changes to your core system.

The Tactics Creator and the use of shouts, makes everything much easier in that respect.

I wish I could finally get my finger on it, every time I have a eureka moment. It often falls apart at the seams.

However that being said, I do tend to play a 4-2-3-1 Formation. Solely as this is the best balance for me, I can't for the life of me play 4-4-2 formation that being diamond, flat. Just plain cannot. It gives me the best balance of attack and defense Playing a 4-2-3-1.

However I suspect no I am no amazing footballing brain, but teams such as Barcelona, even Holland are famous to the masses. In my eyes that is; for playing the same formation 4-3-3 if I am not mistaken. But the formation, and shape of the team even style of the team, may look kinda samey but often tends change from match to match. To fit with the Tactics/Strategy. So on paper. It's... "Oh look their playing 4-3-3 again" ... But actually the shape maybe the same, not the strategy.

Can't you chaps create your tactics via the wizard and read the explanations for the various strategies? That's your starting point. It's nothing too complicated or difficult in my eyes.

Then maybe you want to also have a look at T&T '10 on the tactics forum. You'll learn more about real life football and FM at the same time.

Read it, many times and it does make a difference for a while. But I don't care what anyone says the AI WILL "learn" any tactic that stays constant for any length of time, and I think that fact is my main problem, the game seems to think- "tactic x has been used for half a season or so I've seen enough now to know how it works," and instantly plays much better against tactic x. It's a huge leap and one that almost never happens in football.

That's just not the case DLP. Trust me.

DLP: You are wrong. So wrong. Did you read heath and dafuge's posts.

I have used the same 4-4-1-1 tactic for 3 seasons now as Everton not changed the strategy or anything. The only change I make is against weak teams I move the AMC to ST with the same instructions to go 4-4-2.

I got this tactic from the tactics forum and then changed things and tweaked it here and there to fit my players. I find that whenever I make a tactic in the tactics creator it never works.

I've been playing with the same two tactics (home and away) for 7 seasons now and the ai hasn't learnt mine! The only thing I adjust game to game is opp instructions.

For multiple releases of FM now, I've always advocated choosing your "core" system, then stick with it. You can then build your team around your chosen tactical system.

Therefore, when it's a system you know and understand, not only does it make it easier to know it's strengths and weakness', but you know what player attributes will suit it....

That's it.

As for AI 'learning' your tactic. As said; simply not true.

I'm in my 13th season and regularly winning games/trophies and I probably tinker far less with changing my tactic than many. If the AI had cracked my tactic, I'd have known about it by now.

Players win games, squads win titles. Tactics are overrated imvho.

Constantly chasing the best tactic has to be harder to win by. Confuses you. Confuses your team.

For me morale is just as important as tactics.

For me morale is just as important as tactics.

Definitely. And form.

Add on the mental key attributes for me (teamwork, determination, workrate) and obviously defenders need to be as high as you can get for your league/budget/team in tackling, positioning, marking...strikers high in finishing and off the ball....midfielders can pass etc etc.

DLP: You are wrong. So wrong. Did you read heath and dafuge's posts.

Well if the AI doesn't learn you'r tactics then that in itself isn't simulating football very well as managers figure out each others tactics all the time, it doesn't equal a certain win. I however think FM does simulate this part of the game only it deploys the information wrongly.

Thing is, perhaps because I'm a moderator in the Tactics and Training Tips forum, I sometimes get the feeling (certainly in some of the PM's I get), that I should be some sort of tactical "guru".

I'm certainly far from that. I do have a decent understanding of tactical principals and systems, as a former player and a lifelong fan of football, but I've always preferred the simpler approach, when it comes to playing FM. You'll see me get involved in some tactical debates, when it's a topic I know about, I've also posted some tactics in the past. The best tactical posts though, are the ones where the OP states what attributes he looks for, in each position and role. Generally, these are the ones I find to be the "best" tactics on the forums, so long as people actually take all the advice on offer.

I read so much on the forums about why "this" system is brilliant or "that" formation works better, but to be honest, rarely is one actually better than the other.

The key for me, has always been to understand which player attributes are most suited for each role in a system. This is entirely why I'm enjoying the Tactics Creator in FM10. If I'm building a tactic from scratch, I do it entirely with the tactics creator, often using the generic "roles" assigned within it. The beauty with this, is that the "key" player attributes are actually highlighted, making it much easier to see what attributes you need for suitable players. Also and wherever possible, I only look use players who are "Natural" in a given role. "Accomplished" for me is second choice if needed, anything else and they're simply not suited, even though attributes might suggest they are.

Finally though, the day that the FM's AI does learn our tactics, I fully expect my screen to turn into this...

**Soft computer voice**

"Hello Dave... forget going to other planets... I've cracked your 4-4-2!"

Or "I'm sorry Dave, I can't allow you to win that game".

Frankly I've gon three years in my current save using the same tactics, and it has generally worked for me. I'm with Betis, season 1 won the adelante at a canter (expected) season 2 qualified for europa league (better than expected, hoping for mid table) season 3 3rd (knew I could do it board expected mid-table), and won cup and 2nd knock out in europa.

The only concession to tactical changes was in game where if I was chasing a result I would go overload, and if I was holding a tight lead I would go control. Now what's more amazing I have tried to keep as close to the same tactics in all the versions I've played, an attacking 4-4-2 with advanced wingers, wide paly and short passing. I've never had problems on any of the versions (although I've had some horrible saves). So if I can keep a tactic as much as possible over multiple games then anybody can keep them from year to year.

I don't understand why this should be such an alien concept. Kevin Keegan "learnt" other managers tactics and he never was a guru, everyone has "learnt" Barca's tactics, doesn't mean they can stop them. Why shouldn't it be a part of FM? Just allow those who choose to take the Barca route, for want of a better phrase, to do so.

But you can (and I have) take the Barca route. I recreated my version of Pep's tactic and dominated everything and everyone. Easy. Rarely changed anything, apart from occasionally 'control' to 'attack'.

The AI managers can't "learn" your tactics because they aren't that smart. No AI is.

The best that could be hoped for would be the AI "learning" in a percentage and magically playing better against you, which is unrealistic. When teams "learn" how to play against another IRL, then they're working out how to stop them doing something they're go at, and exploit things they're bad at. The AI isn't at that stage yet- the only stage it could get to at the moment, unless I'm very much mistaken, is "magic".

I only use one tactic an dthe only changes I make are personnel. I've deffinatley never seen the AI "learn" a tactic, I have however noticed teams playing with a more defensive style now that my side is a big club.

I had to quit a recent Arsenal save after i beat Man United 2-1 then lost to Hull 2-0 with the same first 11.

I got the impression my tactic does not work against certain formations but should it matter if my players are much better than the oppositions?

The shouts are stupid too because the match engine is still quite bad, i use the work ball into box but i still see my players running down the wings and crossing.

Are shouts supposed to override individual instructions?

The best that could be hoped for would be the AI "learning" in a percentage and magically playing better against you, which is unrealistic. When teams "learn" how to play against another IRL, then they're working out how to stop them doing something they're go at, and exploit things they're bad at. The AI isn't at that stage yet- the only stage it could get to at the moment, unless I'm very much mistaken, is "magic".

And we reach the crux.

The AI may not magically start playing better than you but the forums are filled with posts asking why "my team has suddenly started playing badly" its always team talks/complacency/media.....etc. Before these things were in the game how often did we here of AI learning tactics? It doesn't matter how it's explained away, perfectly good stable tactics are having sudden, devastating losses of form

Indeed Barcelona haven't changed the way they play for years now and are well on there way to becoming the best team in history.

Wow... just wow...!

Can you back your opinion up with some other points perhaps?

Just to throw a spanner in your works I personally thought Barca were extremely fortunate/corrupt to get through against Chelsea in last year's Champs League.

I have a lot of sympathy with the OP as I did wonder myself in this reincarnation of FM, and I too play the same way, with a let them worry about us attitude with only mentality changes from time to time, although I have given up on defending when I lead because I always concede!!!!

Many examples : One match I won 10-0, then I didn't win again in the next 5. Beat Newcastle away 3-1, then in the next game lost to 17th placed Wolves at home. Diamanti scores a hat-trick then doesn't score in the next 4 or 5, so yes I actually thought the AI sussed your tactics compared tp previous FM's...

I however believe that there is an answer to this that does need to be looked at by SI. Team talks and Press conferences have far too much influence on the outcome of games. Say the wrong thing even with the right intentions and it can backfire which is wrong. You say you are "pleased" or "you can win this game" for all the right reasons but because people don't fully understand them it can destroy your second half despite how well you may be playing or how well your tactics are doing. You know it well. 4-0 up at half time, do you win 8-0? Rarely if ever...

In the past incarnations people complained about winning and losing streaks but at least that was realistic. However in FM10 I find it's too bitty for no real reason. You draw away at Man City, then win at home to Man Utd, draw at the Emirates and then you lose two on the bounce to Wigan and Portsmouth. I know, it's happened to me and there was no logic to it, and that is why I do as I say have sympathy with the OP.

I stick with a 4-2-4 - generally attacking and find that it gets good results, although I will switch to a slightly more defensive 'control' or 'standard' version of the same tactics sometimes. What I have not cracked yet, though, is the 'opposition does well against 4-4-2' comment that you sometimes get before a match. I've tried various things but it seems that that is a recipe for an almost guaranteed loss. I just don't like the idea of switching to 4-3-3 or something just to overcome this, as managing in lower leagues you don't have a big player pool to choose from and my whole setup is 4-2-4/4-4-2 orientated because of this. It's a little annoying.

I have a lot of sympathy with the OP as I did wonder myself in this reincarnation of FM, and I too play the same way, with a let them worry about us attitude with only mentality changes from time to time, although I have given up on defending when I lead because I always concede!!!!

Many examples : One match I won 10-0, then I didn't win again in the next 5. Beat Newcastle away 3-1, then in the next game lost to 17th placed Wolves at home. Diamanti scores a hat-trick then doesn't score in the next 4 or 5, so yes I actually thought the AI sussed your tactics compared tp previous FM's...

I however believe that there is an answer to this that does need to be looked at by SI. Team talks and Press conferences have far too much influence on the outcome of games. Say the wrong thing even with the right intentions and it can backfire which is wrong. You say you are "pleased" or "you can win this game" for all the right reasons but because people don't fully understand them it can destroy your second half despite how well you may be playing or how well your tactics are doing. You know it well. 4-0 up at half time, do you win 8-0? Rarely if ever...

In the past incarnations people complained about winning and losing streaks but at least that was realistic. However in FM10 I find it's too bitty for no real reason. You draw away at Man City, then win at home to Man Utd, draw at the Emirates and then you lose two on the bounce to Wigan and Portsmouth. I know, it's happened to me and there was no logic to it, and that is why I do as I say have sympathy with the OP.

I had the same for a while. I think the problem is with the default Attacking setting which for some unknown reason has counter attacking selected. This may be a good idea when you playing good teams as they attack a lot and with you getting many players behind the ball they resort to long shots which almost always miss. But now when you use the exact same tactic against a team you expected to beat it is a disaster because you now gifting them a lot of possession but they don't attack in numbers so you don't actually get that ability to counter attack. Since removing the counter attack tick things have removed remarkably.

In some cases it does really seem the ME is out to get you though. Don't see a headed goal in months then 3 in one game....no long shots for months and then 2 in a game. It's like the ME goes back to 10.0 for a while just when your opponent needs it

I always use the same tactic... No changes.. The only thing the AI does is copy my formation... Half of the clubs in my league suddenly started using 4-5-1. :confused:

Well proof of the pudding on team talks. I was just 2-0 up v leaders Liverpool at home. Dominated first half and should have had at least 4. Half time I say "don't let your performance drop". They do!!! Liverpool score with first attack of 2nd half and also later on, end result 2-2!!!!!

They were probably a little peeved that after handing a beating to the league leaders for 45 mins that you weren't a little happier. Don't let your performance drop should not be used when you are beating a superior team. Pleased would have worked better.

I have 2 tactics, Home and Away - 1 attacking and 1 less attacking. Depending on the match and the opposition I will work between the 2 and I never tweak beyond that.

I rarely change my actual formation but the way I approach a match tactically and the roles I get the players to adopt within that formation, as well as the mentality of the team, do change according to our opposition. The context of the match will change how you get your team to play, either according to the opposition's ability and tactics or the scoreline within a match but as long as things are going okay, I haven't found that major changes in the philosophy of the team are needed.

Wow... just wow...!

Can you back your opinion up with some other points perhaps?

Just to throw a spanner in your works I personally thought Barca were extremely fortunate/corrupt to get through against Chelsea in last year's Champs League.

Wow what???

Man Utd change tactics, formations and team instructions constantly, both for specific games and often during. Arsenal used to keep the same "tactic," for want of a better word, and formation (4-4-2), but more recently adopt different approaches for different games. Most foreign teams change things around a lot as well, but I chose Barcelona, and to a lesser extent Stoke, because they are two examples of teams who have hit on what they feel is the perfect way for their teams to play against any opposition. Personally I had thought FM had got far too tactics heavy, and by attempting to beat the cheats had taken the single tactic out of the game. It appears however that people are having success without changing tactics around at all, which I find hard to believe, as for two years all I've heard about is tactic sets, home and away tactics....etc.

As for last years Champs league, I think you're absolutely right. Doesn't make them any less of a great team though.