The Deterministic Drama that FM loves so much

I'll start by saying this is not a complaint or sortitoutsi kind of thing, just a personal analysis which might or might not be common to your games. There a few frustrating, nerve-stretching things FM does that really kill off quite some of the enjoyment of the game. It can be summarized as love for dramatic matches and fairytale endings. Yeah laugh all you want but thats the truth and here are the examples.

NOTE: The following rules apply in full power only when the teams in question are with similar reputation. When there are big differences the rules are weaker but you can still feel them.

The 10 minutes rule:

Under no circumstance will you be able to score a goal under the 10th minute mark which will not be returned "pegged back" immediately. Thanks to eldeniro for telling me about this, I didn't really pay attention but for the last 2 seasons I'm really noticing it. It's very simple.. you score in a minute thats before the 10th mark.. chances are you won't hold to that lead no matter what you do. They hit you right back.. you can't "shout" your way out of this. The game just says "aww no way i'm losing so fast!"

The leading goal rule:

Very often you score a goal in a game which you dominate. Say.. you are having a blast of a match pushing them all around creating chances and all but it's not going in. You are totally dominant but not scoring. Then finally you do so.. say, 50th, 60th no matter what minute and you are pretty happy!

Suddenly though the opposition becomes a super-team. They start to win every tackle they pass like gods and dribble like 10 Messis creating chance after chance after chance. The very same team that you were battering for the last hour and that could not connect even 2 passes together now is a beast!

What happens? They score.. more often than not they do. And then? Well.. then something "clicks" again and they are back to being the battered team u dominated. This rule applies not only to teams lower in stature than you but higher as well.. Actually no matter what the team is this is always how it works. If you are unlucky they will score even more before "clicking" back to their old self.

The 70th minute rule:

This one is more complex, the 70th minute is the one when the AI does most of its substitutes. As with the previous rule they become very strong and usually if leading you have to start defending like your life depends on it. This rule isn't as strong as the previous one but still applies.

The Extra Time Drama:

Ah..SI how much you love this one don't you? Again very very often you get to see some key replay (if like me only watch these) that happens before the end of the match.. For example 89th minute or of the sorts. Then immediately after that you are treated to OBLIGATORY watching of the whole extra time in which the other team is trying to get in. Especially frustrating when holding on to a very weak lead. Truth be told it works in your favour too sometimes.

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That's how these things work for me. The first 3-4 rules are the biggest downfall in my view. They are so deterministic.. It feels beyond your control, something just triggers and the games begin to work on a certain pattern until it reaches its goal.

It doesn't feel like is up to your skills, tactics or tricks you pull - it feels like being forced to watch what the game has in store for you.

Again I'd like to repeat that this applies with full power only when the teams are similar. And I see why they made it like this - the casual gamer will pick a big team and have fun with dramatic CL moments or big derbies, but to have this happening all the time with every team is insane.

I don't want to play by patterns, I want my tactics to actually mean something and work as intended. What's the point of the whole thing when you know how most of the situations work despite your efforts? Your hands are tied and you don't have control of the match engine so you eat what it serves you.

When in real life does this happen constantly? There are dramatic matches true, they do happen but more often than not on big stages and just occasionally in the league. And then again - depends on the league. Keep the patterns for huge matches if you must and let me have a free-flowing game that doesn't feel automated and deterministically dramatic just for the sake of it.

Thanks for reading

p.p

Just remembered watching Man Utd. - Fulham a few days ago. Didn't saw Fulham becoming supermen when United scored or after the 70th minute. They don't know anything.

I recognize ALL of it. However, it's not what you think it is. What is happening is:

First few minutes AI concedes, AI thinks, omg, I was totally wrong with my starting line-up, and makes rigorous changes.

Suddenly though the opposition becomes a super-team. They start to win every tackle they pass like gods and dribble like 10 Messis creating chance after chance after chance. The very same team that you were battering for the last hour and that could not connect even 2 passes together now is a beast!

They changed tactics. Against your attacking setup these work very well.

70th minute: is just a time the AI picked for last resort changes by AI. They often change to overload @ 70 minute mark. I often enough score ~70 minute. Defensive tactics can often lead to 5-0 hammerings here.

extra time drama: I don't recognize this at all. Except, I do score more I feel.

You should really watch full match highlights, and see if you can beat these things. I don't like the determinism of it too much either, and often enough it doesn't make any sense (why does ai change to 52121 so often, ive never seen that formation irl, and by never I mean, NEVER.

At some point you'll get it, and you can watch key highlights. Imo extended isn't really richer in information then key. You still get the yellow cards on key, and that's important, cause it tells you whether you're in the right setup for a match, but the long shots that go way over I couldn't really care less about.

When in real life does this happen constantly? There are dramatic matches true, they do happen but more often than not on big stages and just occasionally in the league. And then again - depends on the league. Keep the patterns for huge matches if you must and let me have a free-flowing game that doesn't feel automated and deterministically dramatic just for the sake of it.

yesterday, I saw a football match on tv. First half was pretty lame. Hometeam had to score, awayteam was leading 2-1 aggregrate. Away team tried to put pressure on the back 4 of hometeam, and didn't want to play deep. Second half, ~60 minute mark, hometeam subbed a wingback for a left winger, means they effectively played 4 attackers. Immediately they created a almost-chance. Awayteam had to react right away or they'd be overrun. They did, and subbed an attacked for a defensive midfielder. They played an anchor man in midfield, and from that moment on their playmaker finally got space (home team had very strong defense and effectively marked him out), and he started playing the splicing throughballs he's so famous for, launced a striker, and they scored the very important awaygoal.

Tactics are changed all the time during matches. The setup of inter was obviously slightly different at the start of the second half, and during the second half, even more changes were made. In the first half no team made any changes, which makes sense, cause not much happened, and chelsea always hope for 1 moment of glory to decide a match. They usually only need 1 ccc.

Just remembered watching Man Utd. - Fulham a few days ago. Didn't saw Fulham becoming supermen when United scored or after the 70th minute. They don't know anything.

I didn't see the match, so Im not sure. But what I can say is, that it can hardly be a coincidence that man utd needed 46 minutes to score, then suddenly got 2 goals in the last 10 minutes of the match. Usually losing teams start to take more risks late in the game, and winning teams respond accordingly. If you don't, you'll often be overrun. If you do, you'll often destroy them on the counter.

What I find annoying is that I KNOW AI changes tactics, and DO respond accordingly, but the match doesn't get to a stop quickly enough for the tactics to be changed in time. IMO touchline instructions should be shouts, and should be implemented within seconds. Sometimes you have to wait 5 minutes for the changes to take effect.

Never seen the first 3 myself, generally if I score in the first 10 minutes I tend to get a second or even third within the first 15, then it stops.

The extra time drama I will agree with, and add one on the flip-side - if you are trailing going into extra-time you don't see any highlights at all, the game just zips straight through to the final whistle.

Considering the OP said quite explicitly that he didn't want any moaning in his thread, would everybody please not moan? It devalues what is essentially a light hearted thread if people take it seriously.

Thanks to eldeniro for telling me about this, I didn't really pay attention but for the last 2 seasons I'm really noticing it.

I think that about sums it up. People see what they want to see.

why does ai change to 52121 so often, ive never seen that formation irl, and by never I mean, NEVER.

Me neither

I think that about sums it up. People see what they want to see.

Good job in missing the point Previously I played on higher level and didn't care to analyze because I was always the dominant team. But as I underlined several times in the OP this applies 100% when the teams are with similar qualities and most importantly - reputation.

I have the feeling that reputation decides matches much more than anything else. A high-rep team will always do a lot against you even if they have crap players and lose to the AI with marginal results.

@helemaalnicks thanks for taking the time in writing all this. I understand tactics and shouts are essential. Hell I even read tactical theorems and whatnot to be able to play this the right way. However some of these things can't be explained or defended as you did.

For example the 10 minute rule - u barely have time to react before they "peg one back" immediately. But I do and keep it dynamic the whole game. It's just that the game has really determined patterns which override the real situation - and they trigger at some of these points I mentioned. At least that's what I am experiencing and that's the feeling I get.

If the fault is mine I have no problem in accepting this and will be grateful to point me ways that work against the problems I noted.

The phenomena you describe here are also very much present in real football and are actually quite well modelled - though perhaps understandably robotic compared to real life. These are just natural changes in the ebb and flow of any match. It is never going to be one way traffic for 90 minutes and anticipating these trigger points is a major part of successful management.

I have suffered these problems in the past, but can usually control the situation enough to tip the balance in my favour. These issues are preventable.

- I find 'retain possession' and 'take a breather' are good shouts for when I've just scored.

- 'Pass into space', 'hassle opponents' and 'get stuck in' are useful for when you I lost momentum (as are substitutes!).

- I like my DMC or my most defensively minded MC to be sat in front of the defence (can generally be done without sacrificing attacking capabilities). I don't like gaps to appear in that area and I prefer to rely on getting a good basic setup rather than using Opposition Instructions.

- I will often restrict full backs to prevent counter attacks, keep goal side and guide opponents into traffic (i.e. the DMC I've sat in front of the defence.

I could go into a lot more detail, but this would be the wrong forum (and I can't be bothered! ). This is just what suits me and I am just as inclined to do the complete opposite and go for the kill if the situation demands - 'attack is the best form of attack' as they say.

well i had a few games wen my team netted a few quickfire goals at the start of the match.....i mean it was an average opposition agnst my all conquering Real madrid and my team netted 5 goal in 16 mins.....no screenshot sorry....but the sequence was 1,3,9,11,16 for the first 5 goals. I eventually won the game 6-0 though and the players were annoyed as at the half time i said "i dont expect their performence to drop."

I notice that conceding a goal often has a very positive effect on the motivation of players. (Oh, so NOW you're fired up!)

Going 1-0 down seems to have the same effect as a really good team talk.

Also, if you're playing weird catch-up tactics and score, the centre kick doesn't count as a break in play, so the other team are allowed one "free" go at equalising before you can switch back from 1-4-5.

You've been totally dominating for 60 minutes, finally score a goal and now must change the tactics that are clearly working? Makes a lot of sense.

Also, if the A.I has suddenly found this genius way to counteract your tactics (only after you score though for some reason not while watching your team totally dominate before this) and gets an equaliser then why does his genius tactic go straight out the window as soon as it's 1-1 causing your team to totally dominate again?

I have to say I completely agree with you vermundr. I do sometimes feel powerless with my tactics and I am very stubborn with the tactics I play. I really don't like changing to defensive formations as I believe attack is the best form of defence (sorry for the cliche).

However, as much as this annoys me I do not think it makes the game worse. I like a challenge and finding ways to stop these deterministic rules is certainly that.

See this is where we contradict - I believe it spoils the game. Main reason as I stated is that these pattern scenarios were made for big matches. Champion's League, Huge Derbies etc.. Because SI knows most people will get going with a big club. Yeah not everyone but you don't really expect them to not try to win new gamers.

And if I'm a newbie these things will be cool - the game will be like self driven because let's be honest a newbie won't go in detail with tactics, won't read articles and wouldn't know how to use shouts or team talks or whatever. They might eventually in time if they dig the game but at first no. So they'll watch the games and enjoy the drama and all.

But I personally believe that managers are a problem here as well. If the engine's not the problem why then every manager has to play as a Mourinho or Alex Ferguson? Because that's what this determinism turns it into. It makes manager stats completely useless. Everyone is a genious tactician even in the very low division depths of Bulgaria

Have you ever seen a thread where someone shares/complains/shows how a certain manager not a team is giving him a headache every time they meet ? I'd love to see that. I'd love to see Wenger kicking my ass with Arsenal then move to a club that I had no real trouble beating and turn it into a rock against me. That would make for some amazing rivalries on manager-level and spice it up immensely not mentioning giving more sense into the mind-games and relations with other managers.

I agree with you about the noobs who come on and choose the big clubs, they will benefit initially, but in time they will turn into us dicsussing these flaws!

I spend most of my time managing lower league teams in all different Nations and I think this determinism is much more apparent here. One example, I was at home to a team who were rock bottom of the league, they had lost around 11 games on the bounce and all of their teams morale was either poor or very poor. Yet, the leading goal rule came in to play! So frustrating. I accept that sometimes teams can turn a game on its head, but that team is usually doing well in the league/has a new manager to install some confidence/has the hair dryer at half time.

I feel as though we are probably repeating ourselves slightly here, its good to know that other people feel the same way but I think we just have to get on with it and hope that FM 11 addresses this issue.

Good job in missing the point Previously I played on higher level and didn't care to analyze because I was always the dominant team. But as I underlined several times in the OP this applies 100% when the teams are with similar qualities and most importantly - reputation.

I have the feeling that reputation decides matches much more than anything else. A high-rep team will always do a lot against you even if they have crap players and lose to the AI with marginal results.

Why don't you conduct an experiment? Everyone can speculate about stuff like that, but with the editor and the real-time editor it's easier than ever to actually find this out. Raise the reputation of some obscure Belgian team and play against them. They'll be favourites and play more attacking, but their players will still be bad. Go for it.

And I assumed the point of this thread was to point out patterns that you think exist in the game. I'm fairly convinced there are no 'set' patterns, but just the AI adjusting their tactics according to the things that happen on the pitch (probably mostly the scoreline). They'll adjust them the same/similarly (probably depending on the manager's tactical knowledge).

Sorry, I don't recognise any of these "rules" in the OP. It's just silly to say any of this.

The early goal thing is nonsense. Happens very rarely to me. In fact, an early goal usually leads to being 3-0 up inside 20 mins. I then usually go on to win, er, 3-1.

The others are all covered by your tactical approach. Dominating a match that takes you 60 minutes to break down? Of COURSE they're going to come at you. So change your tactics a little, something common sense like a slower tempo, less attacking mentality (just don't choose "counter" - I don't know of anyone who can get that to work).

It's your tactics. Or your imagination. Pure and simple.

(just don't choose "counter" - I don't know of anyone who can get that to work).

It's your tactics. Or your imagination. Pure and simple.

actually i have counter set as my default tactic on my Chicago Fire team. its been pretty successful for myself, anyways, with a 10-5-3 league record to date, and i have the leading goalscorer in the league so far. its not perfect but i've found it works pretty well for my teams strengths (speed at the wings and tackling) and weaknesses (conditioning & technical skills, lack of playmaker)

I also use counter quite successfully when the weather doesn't suit short passing.