Liverpool 4-4-1-1 "Pass and Move" - Paisley Era

Liverpool 4411 Pass and Move, Paisley Era

** Download **

This update, as discussed during the thread, includes the use of a higher 'time wasting' setting, to generate a variable-tempo in possession, and higher pressing made possible by players maintaining condition as a result of the 'time wasting' and one or two other tweaks as discussed.

* Download (Original tactic) *

Please note: I have not tested this tactic with any team other than Liverpool and have no intention of doing so. Firstly, because I’m not trying to create a supertactic that fits all teams. Secondly, because I get barely enough time to play the game as much as I’d like. Thirdly, because I’m sure it will work for teams with good players and won’t work for teams with average or poor players. This isn’t a tactic to get the best out of an average bunch, it is to get a team of good players playing a particular way: the pass and move of Liverpool sides of old. Essentially it requires players with good all round technical skills, high decision and teamworking skills and good physical condition.

Concept

The idea behind this tactic is, more or less, to recreate the tactic used by Liverpool’s greatest teams, particularly those under Bob Paisley which won the club 6 league titles, 3 European Cups, a UEFA Cup and 3 League Cups between 1975/76 and 1982/83. This is something I’ve been doing since the very first Championship Manager; but FM10 is the first of the graphical match engines with the tactical flexibility to really to get it to look and work how I want.

Why try to recreate a 30 year old tactic in the modern game? “Football has changed”. Well, it’s still 11 men kicking a ball around a pitch, with pitch and goals the same size as they were then. The laws of football are almost timeless in comparison to other sports which make significant changes every couple of years. Despite the backpass rule and changes to offside (and the gradual reduction of tackling), it’s essentially the same game.

In any event, Paisley’s Liverpool were ahead of their time – hence their successes – and his vision became one of the most influential tactical systems in modern football. Interviewed in the Independent in 2005 before the Istanbul final, Arrigo Sacchi commented on the influence of that system:

Sacchi defines the modern game as "the harmonic movement of 11 players, who are always active, with or without the ball." That, he said, was "the real revolution in modern football and few have been able to pull it off". Among the few teams that did, he said, were the great Liverpool sides of the 1970s and 1980s.

"Liverpool were up there with Brazil, Holland and Ajax as the teams that most excited me. They were one of my main reference points for the way they married individual ability with collective ability to create a marvellous continuous style of play." The Benitez Liverpool does not match up, yet, but are getting better, he said. "They are a good collective. They lack experience but they can always acquire that and they have a coach who will improve them."

I read a more in depth interview where he discussed this influence, about 15 years ago; I’ve never been able to find it since (anyone who has every back copy of 442 magazine, I’m sure it’s in there somewhere). Sacchi’s tactical influence on modern football is well documented and doesn’t need going over again, other than – in the context of Liverpool and FM10 – it’s influence in turn on Rafa Benitez; his 4231 is infact quite similar in shape to the old 4411, with it’s cautious reputation more a result of the personality of specific players chosen in key roles.

Core Principles

Pass and move. This is the fundamental aspect of the system. Get the ball, pass it, move to be available for another pass – "the harmonic movement of 11 players, who are always active”, in Sacchi’s words. Fluid football, probing space, changes of angles, make the opposition work to cover space and follow the ball, creating gaps and space by applying a constant physical and mental demand on the opposition until they make a mistake. By implication, this requires short passing at a quick-ish tempo, as part of the ‘normal’ tactic, though certain game conditions (not that many, though) may warrant slowing things down.

Fluidity. While not the Total Football of the Dutch, the system does require that every player be comfortable on the ball (ok, except Carragher), works hard and – most importantly – has footballing intelligence: ‘decisions’ and ‘teamwork’, in FM terms. There is no room in this system for ‘specialist’, one-dimensional players – except perhaps a top quality goalscorer.

Width (or not). The tactic is infact slightly ‘narrow’, to keep a tight midfield, to encourage one touch passing play to forge openings in the key central area. Wide midfielders are encouraged to cut inside; the through ball is a more potent weapon (in this tactic) than the cross; crosses are almost treated (as in the instructions below) as additional ‘through balls’. Of course, intelligent and skilled wide players will go down the line occasionally, regardless of instructions, if that’s what the game situation suits. Real width is provided by attacking, overlapping fullbacks; but as a whole, this tactic aims to carve open the opposition down the centre (focus passing through the middle).

Denial of space. One key aspect of this system is to recycle possession quickly; to camp in the opposition half with the ball and probe for an opening. Doing so with quick, intricate passing does inevitably give up possession more often than a more patient game – the key therefore is to win back the ball. In FM, pressing can’t be quite as high as I’d like (if you want players with more than 60% by the end of the game), so there is a compromise. Essentially though, the forward players and wide midfielders will harass opponents well inside their own half; the central midfielders around the halfway line. Using the 4411 instead of the various variants using DMs etc, this is however done with an efficient, flat midfield four and a fairly high defensive line. The back four will drop if the opposition builds an attack, but fullbacks in particular will press quickly.

Team Instructions

Some people may see a contradiction, or at least a conflict, with a short, quick, control based tactic. The idea is that the overall strategy is to maintain possession; but with the speed of passing and movement, plus quite attacking roles, to pull the opposition around the pitch, carve open and take advantage of chances as they present themselves. This tactic will not produce large possession advantages in many games (unless you slow tempo for periods), and against the big clubs will often see a slight disadvantage in possession, but an advantage in chances created. Against the bulk of the division, 25-30 attempts on goal should be common.

Defensive Line: Reviewing my tactic, I notice I have this ‘one click’ below the default value given for the above settings; I’m not sure how much difference that one click will have (or when I clicked it), but that’s where I have it.

Width: the highest notch of ‘Narrow’. Not too narrow; the midfielders will be cutting inside anyway, and we want the fullbacks to overlap, not clog up midfield.

Tempo: the lowest notch of ‘Quick’.

Time Wasting: set to ‘Rarely’, 3 clicks from minimum. We don’t want to waste time, we want to wear down the opposition with relentless, quick, accurate pass and move.

Focus Passing: Through the Middle. I’ve never been too sure how much difference this actually makes, but as the idea is to get our most creative and influential players dominating the opposition in the critical space (around where an opposition DM might sit) and to our lethal goalscorer, this is where we want the ball.

Counter Attack: No.

Play Offside: No.

Back on the ‘basic’ team screen, target man is set to the striker (i.e. Torres), with supply as ‘run onto ball’. A lot of chances are to be generated via through balls. This isn’t an attempt to ‘beat’ the match engine – this is a reflection of the Liverpool tactic, with the midfield all attempting to release Ian Rush (intelligence, pace, finishing) for one-on-one chances.

Team Basic Instructions

Player Instructions

Keeper

Sweeper Keeper, Support duty, all settings left at default.

Most famously this role was performed by Bruce Grobbelaar, but a number of Liverpool keepers had the same basic function. With a fairly high defensive line to compress space, but without either a rigidly drilled offside trap or lightning quick centre backs, the keeper is needed to come off his line quickly on occasion, to sweep up a through ball. This works fairly well in FM; I think I conceded two goals I might put down to this last season (how many did it save?) – ok, one of them was the critical goal in a CL semi final, with Rooney lobbing Reina in extra time…

Fullbacks

Wingback role, Support duty. Three settings are changed from the default for the role – passing style is made shorter (I have it 4 clicks from minimum), Closing Down reduced slightly (by two clicks from default, i.e. to two clicks right of centre) and finally ‘Tight Marking’ is set to Yes. I have experimented with Run With Ball and Run From Deep set to often, but settled back to the default value of sometimes; they get forward plenty.

Central Defender

Ball Playing Defender

One is set to Central Defender, Defend, all values left at default. The other is set to Ball Playing Defender, Defend. For him, passing is reduced (from dead centre default), to the lowest ‘Mixed’; I also have Run From Deep sometimes, Run With Ball often, Long Shots often – however, this is more trying to get Agger to play like Agger (still rarely seen venturing forwards, I think he had 3 shots in the entire season) than a fixed view. With another player, I would leave these at default. Note, closing down is left at default, which for these is two clicks lower than the fullbacks. The same differential is applied in midfield, and between the two forward players and the midfield and seems to work well for what I want. In the longer term in my game specifically, once Carragher is replaced there is no reason why both CBs can’t be ‘ball playing’, though without the ‘Agger’ instructions.

Wide Midfielders

Wide Midfielder, Support. Passing is made shorter (same position as fullbacks), Closing Down is reduced by two clicks from default (i.e. 4 clicks below maximum), Run With Ball often instead of sometimes, Long Shots sometimes instead of often. I don’t infact want them to run with the ball all that much, but found they were doing so hardly at all without the change in setting. Tight Marking is set to ‘Yes’ – all outfield players with the exception of the striker have this on. I also have wide midfielders set to cross from Deep, aim for Target Man and for Wide Play, cut inside. (Run into Channels also works quite well, but ‘cut inside’ is what I actually want them to do in real football terms). The reason for the crossing settings is to generate early ‘angled through balls’ for a quick, devastating finisher, rather than floating crosses at the back post. Those do still occur of course (particularly from the overlapping fullbacks), usually attacked by the incoming opposite wide midfielder, or an onrushing central midfielder.

Box to Box Midfielders

Box to Box, Support. This is possibly the most apparently ‘controversial’ setting. There is no DM. There is no ‘ball winning’ midfielder, no anchor man, no water carrier, no deep lying playmaker - there are two ‘box-to-box’ midfielders. The idea is that these work in tandem, determining for themselves when to pass and move, when to hit a killer through ball, when to run with the ball, when to shoot, when to sit. As in most positions in this tactic, a key attribute is decisions. Another factor to consider is that the personality and make up of the players you use determines which midfielder is more attacking, which more cautious. They may have the same instructions, but if you play Gerrard and Mascherano, they won’t play the same. Closing down is set to the lowest notch of ‘whole pitch’, two clicks lower than the wide midfielders. I’d like this to be a little higher, but the physical effort required from these box to box players doesn’t allow it without significant fitness problems. As with the wide midfielders, long shots (down to sometimes) and through balls (up to often) are again ‘flipped’ from the default. All other settings at default.

Attacking Midfielder

Attacking Midfielder, Support. Depending on the player, this role might change a little (to inside forward, or trequartista), but attacking midfielder works well for what I want. This player should be the focus of much attacking player, but often dropping to be involved in build up play, while one of the box-to-box midfielders drives on looking for a through ball. Passing is reduced slightly (to 5 clicks from minimum), while tackling is set to easy – this player is closing down a lot and tight marking, but we don’t want him picking up cards from clumsy challenges when in all likelihood, he won’t be a great tackler. I’ve so far not set the player as ‘playmaker’, though he would be the one were I to do so. I don’t want other players to be restricted in what they do by the need to pass to him; his role should get him involved plenty anyway.

Striker

Advanced Forward, Attack. I’ve tried Complete Forward and Poacher, but Advanced forward seems to fit best. The only changes to default settings are tacking to easy, run from deep to often and roam from position set to No (I want him central, not wandering wide – which he still will to some extent).

Player ‘Types’ and Required Skills

All positions need good ‘decisions’ and other mental attributes, such as teamwork. There is a high degree of creative freedom, plus quick passing movements which require speed of thought as well as action – and for those actions to be the right ones. Stamina requirements are also high, as are technical attributes (first touch, technique, passing) for the quick passing game. Also of course, pass and move has another element – movement, so off the ball movement is also important.

Goalkeeper: Apart from the usual, ‘rushing out’ – and a degree of pace - is vital for a sweeper keeper. No point asking him to sweep up if he’s too slow getting there.

Fullbacks: Need all round technical and mental skills, plus pace and stamina. An important position. They, not the wide midfielders, will be providing many of the crosses. Certain PPMs (gets forward, runs with ball, etc) can be helpful.

Centre Backs: Pace is always useful, but decisions, positioning, concentration etc are critical. They will be exposed on counter attacks at times – they need to be good defenders.

Wide Midfielders: Being asked to cut inside – effectively, these players can be thought of as attacking the corners of the penalty area rather than the flanks – passing, creativity and shooting attributes become at least as important as crossing and sheer pace. PPMs like cut inside, runs into channels are useful.

Central Midfielders: A lot of everything is ideal; these players need to pass, tackle, run and shoot, basically, and know when to do what. Note though, that the player’s personality will influence how he plays the role. Lucas doesn’t get forward as much as Gerrard (though he does a fair bit), despite having the same instructions. The role is physically demanding, so you need fit players or may need to drop closing down settings a touch (or alternatively employ a strict rotation policy). A variety of PPMs – drops deep, gets forward, slows down, killer balls etc – can actually work well together in this mixed and varied role.

Attacking Midfielder: One of the aims of the tactic is to recreate the real life Liverpool tactic; this was Dalglish’s role (yes, I know many people regard him as a striker). Therefore it is tweaked towards a passing, creative role rather than a dribbling, flair role – but that could also work (e.g. Beardsley type, to continue the Liverpool theme), with some tweaks. Benitez’s Liverpool uses the all-action Gerrard in the role, which I believe ultimately is flawed; Gerrard can provide much of that from deeper, while lacking the subtle creativity of a real ‘no.7’ (no.10 for younger or non Liverpool fans ).

Striker: Needs pace, composure (lots of one-on-ones), off the ball and all round decent technical/mental skills. Stamina is needed, unless you remove their closing down function – but this was a core part of Rush’s role in the original Liverpool successes. The ‘places shots into corners’ PPM is very useful (even for Torres; who really should start with it).

In Match

The fundamental strength of the system for Liverpool historically was that it imposed upon the opposition, without needing any great concentration on opposition strengths and weaknesses. Autobiographies of any Liverpool player of the time tell the same story; the manager and coaches barely mentioned the opposition – certainly not their system - only to highlight the odd weaknesses (and never strengths) of specific players. This of course is also ideal for an FM player who wants to compete with a single tactic; without opposition instructions (I didn’t use a single one all season), with minimal tweaking during a season and with the limited use of touchline shouts as and when the game situation warrants.

The system imposes upon the opposition offensively, by providing multiple methods of attack within a single strategy: pass and move at tempo.

If the opposition plays a high defensive line, the combination of high levels of intelligence and passing ability throughout the team, the ‘through ball’ instruction (set to often for most players) and the employment of a quick, quality finisher, will destroy defences. The threat of that through ball is ever present; from deep on the quick counter, or at any point in the passage of play as the ball is moved around and forward; from central or wide. But the ploy is not overused or possession wasted as in more ‘direct’ tactics, as the overall strategy is ‘control’ and passing is mostly ‘short’. This is why decision making is key: when to keep possession, when to play the killer ball.

But playing a deeper line does not solve the problem for the opposition. The ‘control’ element, allied with short passing at tempo and high technical skills, allows the team to build momentum to attack en mass – again, "the harmonic movement of 11 players, who are always active”. As the passage of play progresses, each pass may be forwards, sideways, backwards – but as a whole forms a high tempo, relentless pressure of forward movement on the opposition until camped in the opposition half, with the centre backs sat on the halfway line, fullbacks pressed forward as wingers, five players interchanging in constant movement in the centre and a striker poised to pounce. If the opposition press, they will be pulled out of position, worn down and exhausted until a mistake is forced. If they sit, they have no way of breaking the pressure – again, until a mistake is forced or a moment of subtle quality or crashing long shot unlocks even the tightest defence.

For perhaps the first time, all of this can be seen to work consistently well in FM10s match engine. When applying pressure via possession, midfielders swarm around the edge of the box, making runs, exchanging passes, probing for an opening. The wide midfielders cut inside, thread through balls for the striker or their opposite wide man bursting past the fullback, or burst into the area to shoot themselves, or just lay the ball off to keep possession and applying pressure. Full backs overlap, to cross the ball or pull it back for a player to run at a defence dropped too deep into it’s own area to defend the cross, or lay the ball off for a 25 yard screamer. A box-to-box midfielder plays a simple pass, sets off on a run and is bursting into the area just as the fourth or fifth one-touch pass since he began the move rolls into his path.

Defensively, the focus is on pressing, getting tight and regaining possession as quickly as possible. The defensive line is set moderately high (but without an offside trap), to compress space. The intent is to force the opponent into also playing at a higher tempo than they may be comfortable with; to deny space and time to work in, to force errors and risks, or to concede any attacking intent whatsoever and simply clear the ball into touch or hopefully upfield. The pressing isn’t quite as high as I would like, due to impact on condition levels of even high stamina players.

On paper, without any specialist DM and with attacking fullbacks, the system is susceptible on the counter attack. Part of the design of the system however is to ‘pin back’ the opposition with the ‘control’ build up and attacking fullbacks – counter attacking with a single striker is rarely going to hurt, even against only two centre backs. It’s not uncommon to see in the match engine after a good attacking build up that the opposition has ‘two lines of four’ almost merged into one of eight. The sweeper keeper also serves an important purpose here; any counter using a quick long ball for a pacey striker that does beat the centre backs is the responsibility of the keeper. More dangerous can be the quick counter down one flank behind a fullback. Ultimately the centre backs do need to be able to defend; pace is important, but positioning and intelligence are key.

The Results

I will post some details of results and goals/assists by position tomorrow, as I don’t have access to those right now. However, I was pleasantly surprised by just how strong the tactic was defensively (and offensively). In the PL, I conceded just 15 goals (never more than 2 in 90 minutes; conceded two goals in extra time in a CL semi final second leg 3-1 defeat to Man U when exhausted and chasing the game), had long stretches of games without conceding at all and watching the (extended) highlights came under real pressure only once or twice all season, even to the main rivals. However – I do suspect that the tactic may benefit slightly if there is a significant issue with heading; I did see a fair number of opposition attacks end in weak headers, while my own tactic sees relatively few attacks end in a cross and header.

In the EPL, I finished second behind a rather rampant Chelsea; I lost 3 games (all away, to Man City early in the season, Chelsea during Christmas and Everton late in the season) and drew 8. One of those, unfortunately, was a 0-0 at home to Fulham where I was briefly distracted by the phone only to turn around to see the second half had skipped by without a single highlight to slow things down, and therefore no substitutions or tweaks to shake things up. The team scored 75 in the league (second to 4th placed United with 80), conceded 15 (joint best with Chelsea), with a goal difference some 15 or so goals better than any other team. A few draws shortly after replacing the first choice wide midfielders and AMC (and several backups, as well as the expendable Mascherano) in the January transfer window may be partly to blame.

In the CL, I lost the first group game at Inter Milan and drew home and away against Dinamo, before progressing more comfortably to the semis against Man Utd. Due to a slight oversight in my transfer binge, the entire knockout stage of the CL was played without first choice wide midfielders, as both were ineligible. Outplayed at home, we were fortunate to get a 1-1 draw. At Old Trafford, we dominated but had the luck reversed, with another 1-1 draw in 90 minutes before Rooney completed a hat-trick in extra time. Both Carling and FA Cups were won without scares, disposing comfortably of Chelsea in the CC Final, Arsenal in the FA semi and City, slightly less comfortably (3-2; I think they were the only team to score 2 against me twice, having beaten me 2-0 in the PL), in the final.

In all competitions, we recorded a 71% win ratio, scoring 128 goals and conceding 33. Just over 50 goals came from the ST position (Torres and Ngog). Gerrard was the next most productive (18, from memory), but then the other CM (Lucas/Aquilani/Spearing), the AMC (Kuyt, then replaced by Augusto) and wide players (Maxi/Riera replaced by Gourcuff/Di Maria) all scored a good number of goals. Interestingly, Torres provided most assists too, though I suspect a settled Augusto may beat him next season.

Fixtures part 1

Fixtures part 2

Fixtures part 3

so many words, so nothing tactic :D:D

Great post redmark. Very well-written, too! (Brace yourself for the 'tl;dr - where's the tactic?' posts )

I've just played through a season with Liverpool, alternating between a 4-2-3-1 deep and a 4-4-2 diamond. My main problem, rather than anything tactical, was the entire core of the team (Torres, Gerrard, Aquillani, Skrtl, Agger, Johnson) being so injury prone and missing long stretches of the season. I genuinely felt like Rafa at times, eagerly removing Torres and Gerrard whenever I went so much as two goals up

The only shame with your 4-4-1-1 is that it doesn't really accomodate Kuyt, who I found to be ruthlessly effective as an inside forward/defensive winger in the AMR slot. If nothing else, he seems capable of playing every game with little risk of getting tired, let alone injured!

On previous saved-games, I've over-ridden the 'free role' and 'moves in to channels' options for my lone forward, for the same reason as you - to try and keep him central. But I found that Torres was actually far more dangerous when he roamed around, and often used his raw pace to run on to balls down the flanks before cutting inside to score.

Did you try Benayoun in the Dalglish role, at all?

Great post redmark. Very well-written, too! (Brace yourself for the 'tl;dr - where's the tactic?' posts )

I've just played through a season with Liverpool, alternating between a 4-2-3-1 deep and a 4-4-2 diamond. My main problem, rather than anything tactical, was the entire core of the team (Torres, Gerrard, Aquillani, Skrtl, Agger, Johnson) being so injury prone and missing long stretches of the season. I genuinely felt like Rafa at times, eagerly removing Torres and Gerrard whenever I went so much as two goals up

The only shame with your 4-4-1-1 is that it doesn't really accomodate Kuyt, who I found to be ruthlessly effective as an inside forward/defensive winger in the AMR slot. If nothing else, he seems capable of playing every game with little risk of getting tired, let alone injured!

On previous saved-games, I've over-ridden the 'free role' and 'moves in to channels' options for my lone forward, for the same reason as you - to try and keep him central. But I found that Torres was actually far more dangerous when he roamed around, and often used his raw pace to run on to balls down the flanks before cutting inside to score.

Did you try Benayoun in the Dalglish role, at all?

For the first half of the season, I had Kuyt in the Dalglish role - where he was surprisingly effective (more through work rate perhaps than creativity), with 8 goals and 8 assists in the league. I've used Kuyt in the MR position before (I don't worry too much about the coaches rating for that particular position, as it does 'play' more like an AMR/C) and he does quite well. I had always sort of intended to sign Renato Augusto for the role (excellent decisions, creativity, passing etc) and intended to use Kuyt either as cover for 2-3 positions, or to move him to the right if Maxi wasn't cutting it. When January came, Maxi was ok, but not great, so sold him and played Kuyt there for a few games quite successfully. I had no intention of selling him, but when Barcelona offered £12.5m out of the blue in January, I took it and quickly signed Gourcuff. Similarly on the left, I was quite happy with Riera (who had scored more than a goal every 2 games), but sold him when Real Madrid asked what I wanted for him and agreed when I said £15m. I brought in Di Maria as something of a stop gap (though my assistant has him as the weak link in the team at the moment; the fans love him and he's in the favourites list already), intending to train Delph to play that role.

I had Torres out for a couple of 3-4 week spells (and frequently subbed after taking knocks which thankfully didn't lead to injuries), but Ngog was almost as prolific in the role. I had to sub Gerrard a lot, and give him a week's rest in both January and March. Aquilani, Johnson and Agger all missed a few games, but all in all I was quite lucky with injuries.

I find Torres will still pickup the ball on the flanks as you describe on quick counter attacks, but wanted him to stay central as much as possible when building a more measured attack. What I have found with the likes of Augusto and Gourcuff in particular is that they are adept at picking out delicate little through balls for Torres from around the edge of the area against 'park the bus' sides; for those, I want him poised selfishly around the D, not drifting out to the flank.

On the wide midfielders, a preseason game shortly before I posted the tactic saw one of the most satisfying goals yet: Gourcuff driving from the halfway line and gradually cutting in towards the box, beating 3 or 4 players, before slipping a perfect pass diagonally into the path of Di Maria bursting past the opposite fullback to hammer past the keeper. Exactly the sort of move I wanted to get from the tactic.

Oh, on Benayoun I never really tried him there. I find him a decent/useful player across the 3 positions and he was generally first choice sub in any of them for the first half of the season (and scored a few goals), but not top class in any and (IRL and the game) a little lightweight against top opposition. Given you can usually get around £10m for him, at his age I'd rather cash in and put the money towards a younger alternative.

Nice opening post, but where is the download?

Some screenshots would be nice too.

Nice opening post, but where is the download?

Some screenshots would be nice too.

I know; both will be added later today or tomorrow as time allows (some real life stuff got in the way yesterday).

Your assistant probably rates Di Maria as a weak-link because he's playing at ML rather than AML. He's got fantastic attributes for an out-and-out winger, and it sounds like he cuts inside well (he actually plays the opposite role for Benfica IRL, where he and Ramires play central and move out wide).

N'Gog has done a similarly sterling job for me, with a fair few long-range efforts for some reason. On paper, he really shouldn't be so effective!

I got stung by a transfer embargo in the January window (planned takeover) so had to get by with the original squad, plus Gago on loan to cover for the injured Mascherano

Your assistant probably rates Di Maria as a weak-link because he's playing at ML rather than AML. He's got fantastic attributes for an out-and-out winger, and it sounds like he cuts inside well (he actually plays the opposite role for Benfica IRL, where he and Ramires play central and move out wide).

Probably right; I should shift the MR/ML to AMR/AML whenever I want to get the Assistant's opinion. In game it doesn't worry me; my original doubt with Di Maria was that he was too much of a "winger", and perhaps wouldn't cut inside and pass/move effectively, but he's been excellent so far.

I got stung by a transfer embargo in the January window (planned takeover) so had to get by with the original squad, plus Gago on loan to cover for the injured Mascherano

I got lucky with my takeover - it went through from April to May, with the embargo lifted a couple of weeks before the transfer window opened and a whacking £150m transfer budget: which I don't really want to spend (desperately trying to resist the temptation of buying Aguero, Pato, Fabregas or Hamsik; or, with that money, all four).

Fantastic post Redmark.

I'm really looking forward to giving this a go when you get the tactic uploaded. If it can truly create the type of successful football I remember watching when I was a lad then I'll be very happy.

I've started a new Liverpool save with the introduction of the 10.3 patch and already i've mixed and matched tactics a couple of times, currently settling on Mr Hough's which has given me a 15 point lead at Christmas so I'll happily play out the remainder of the season with your tactic to see how I do.

Opening post updated with download, pics and links to more pics.

If a kindly mod reads this, could the title please be changed to Liverpool 441 - Pass and Move, Paisley Era (the word 'classic' sort of covers it, but it's a tactical creator tactic, not a classic tactic ).

Opening post updated with download, pics and links to more pics.

If a kindly mod reads this, could the title please be changed to Liverpool 441 - Pass and Move, Paisley Era (the word 'classic' sort of covers it, but it's a tactical creator tactic, not a classic tactic ).

It's done

Great OP... shame about the team

Seriously though, one of the best OP's for a tactical post I've seen for a while.

Anyone tried this with anyone aside from the Reds?

Anyone tried this with anyone aside from the Reds?

As in the opening post, I haven't myself. You got any particular team in mind? I think in theory it should work well for any team with good technical, intelligent players, with a quick/composed striker.

It's done

Great OP... shame about the team

Seriously though, one of the best OP's for a tactical post I've seen for a while.

Thanks .

Aston Villa m8 (although I am a red Just signed Suarez although not got anyone really suited to Amc role...Milner maybe...

Aston Villa m8 (although I am a red Just signed Suarez although not got anyone really suited to Amc role...Milner maybe...

Milner should be well suited (remember from my OP, even Kuyt did well in the role for half a season). Pace isn't critical in the position, it's more about passing, touch, decisions and workrate - which Milner is fairly good in. He's a player I always fancy buying in FM, but can never get cheap enough to warrant over some of the other options.

Good point regarding high cost in comparison to others ..watch this space, will feedback in a dozen or so games.

What a fantastic opening post, brilliant.

I have downloaded and am going to try it with Manchester United. I think I will need to either buy a new forward or AMC as Rooney can't fill both roles and I'm not sure Berbatov will be that sucessful in either role.

Can I ask, do you alter anything for any situation? I have read the post but I can't see if you mention if you alter anything if you need to chase a game, bad weather, go a man down etc. Probably me just being blind!

I have started a new game with Real Madrid. I signed Gamst Pedersen and Milner as they both have abit of everything needed for the wide midfielders..passing, pace, crossing, dribbling, teamwork and workrate. Ive played 2 competitive games so far. Lost away to Valencia 2-1 but had more shots and possesion. Beat a team at home (forget the team now) 2-0 and again had more shots and possesion so i am quietly optimistic. I do love dominating possesion but past tactics have seen me not convert this into goals but i am guessing and hoping as my team gel and get used to the tactics we will do well.

one thing ive noticed is the long shots we are taking and missing, most notably from my MC's. It is set to soemtimes but they are taking and missing around 10-15 per game. can i reduce to rarely? will it matter?

thanks

What a fantastic opening post, brilliant.

I have downloaded and am going to try it with Manchester United. I think I will need to either buy a new forward or AMC as Rooney can't fill both roles and I'm not sure Berbatov will be that sucessful in either role.

Can I ask, do you alter anything for any situation? I have read the post but I can't see if you mention if you alter anything if you need to chase a game, bad weather, go a man down etc. Probably me just being blind!

Yeah, I was thinking about United - Rooney should be excellent in the AMC role, or (at least) very good in the striker role. You could try Berbatov behind him, but I think Rooney behind a really top class goalscorer should be the best combination. The striker is critical; if he doesn't have the pace to keep the opposition "honest", a major weapon of the tactic is missing - the ever-present threat of a sudden, lethal through ball.

I don't do anything for weather. Perhaps I should look back to see if any of the losses/draws were in bad weather. But a bit of rain should (if SI have got this bit right) work well with the tactic; slick passing on a slick turf.

Watching the highlights, there are a few things I might do at any point in a game: 'keep possession' if we are losing it and getting attacked too much (say, 3 highlights in quick succession) on the break. 'Work ball into box' if we're shooting too much from distance. 'Pass to feet' if we're hitting too many hopeful balls to Torres, or 'pass into space' if the rhythm isn't quite right and we're getting too congested. Chasing a game, I will change strategy to 'attacking' in the last 20 minutes, but turn off the offside trap. I will, very occasionally and very late, replace the AMC (or even an MC) with a striker if I get the 'feel' that we need to mix things up and give their defence something to think about.

I have started a new game with Real Madrid. I signed Gamst Pedersen and Milner as they both have abit of everything needed for the wide midfielders..passing, pace, crossing, dribbling, teamwork and workrate. Ive played 2 competitive games so far. Lost away to Valencia 2-1 but had more shots and possesion. Beat a team at home (forget the team now) 2-0 and again had more shots and possesion so i am quietly optimistic. I do love dominating possesion but past tactics have seen me not convert this into goals but i am guessing and hoping as my team gel and get used to the tactics we will do well.

one thing ive noticed is the long shots we are taking and missing, most notably from my MC's. It is set to soemtimes but they are taking and missing around 10-15 per game. can i reduce to rarely? will it matter?

thanks

The tactic allows a lot of freedom to players, so midfielders who can shoot from range will do, even on sometimes. There's a balancing act, as I want their first instinct to be to look for a clever through ball, then keep possession and working the ball, then perhaps a long shot. But it does need to be an option, else a packed defence blocking through balls and movement will be able to defend the area without concern. I'm just going into my second season and I am keeping an eye on the long shots (sometimes upto half the efforts on goal are long shots; but that sometimes might be the right thing to do, depending on opposition defensive tactics) - and may drop to 'rarely' for a couple of players: notably, the CMs.

During a game, I do use 'work ball into box' occasionally if I see too many highlights ending in an inaccurate long shot; though I'm wary of doing so if the players seem to have their 'shooting boots' on.

ok thanks i get ya. Also ive got granero, c.ronaldo, milner and MGP as my wide mids, who do you think my first choicers should be?

also for the AMC and ST i have kaka, VDV, higuain, benzema and raul. again who do you think?

Thinking about the CMs long shots a little more, I guess because they get into that position a lot in this tactic, it may need moving down to 'rarely'. If I want their priorities - when say, 30-35 yards out - to be through balls, then possession, then shooting, it would make sense. Through balls = often, possession = the default tactical setting (control, short passing), so long shots should be rarely, to be recognised as '3rd priority'. It should be left at 'sometimes' for other positions, as they're not in that position so often (the wide players seem to get more opportunities from inside the area).

ok thanks i get ya. Also ive got granero, c.ronaldo, milner and MGP as my wide mids, who do you think my first choicers should be?

also for the AMC and ST i have kaka, VDV, higuain, benzema and raul. again who do you think?

I'd need to take a look tonight, don't have access from work, as I don't know some of those players in much detail. Off the top of my head, Ronaldo should be perfect on the right (or left), Kaka as AMC. Milner would be a good option off the bench, though lacks a bit of pace for the wide roles. Does Higuain not also play on the right? I've used him there in the same sort of system in a previous FM, though the tactic seems to work best yet in FM10.

I'd need to take a look tonight, don't have access from work, as I don't know some of those players in much detail. Off the top of my head, Ronaldo should be perfect on the right (or left), Kaka as AMC. Milner would be a good option off the bench, though lacks a bit of pace for the wide roles. Does Higuain not also play on the right? I've used him there in the same sort of system in a previous FM, though the tactic seems to work best yet in FM10.

Ok i thought as CR has terrible workrate and teamwork he wouldnt be suitable for wide mid but kool:thup:

i think milner has decent pace, cant remember wot his stats are exactly but i know they good enough otherwise i wouldnt of bought him.

yeah i also remember higuain playing amrc/fc in old fm's but this one he is FC but is orange for both ML and MR. so guess i can retrain but he will be the alternitive for benema as ST. also have raul that can play amc but is too slow for FC im guessing.

i guess its about trying them out and rotating anyway for fitness purposes.

The only shame with your 4-4-1-1 is that it doesn't really accomodate Kuyt, who I found to be ruthlessly effective as an inside forward/defensive winger in the AMR slot. If nothing else, he seems capable of playing every game with little risk of getting tired, let alone injured!

On previous saved-games, I've over-ridden the 'free role' and 'moves in to channels' options for my lone forward, for the same reason as you - to try and keep him central. But I found that Torres was actually far more dangerous when he roamed around, and often used his raw pace to run on to balls down the flanks before cutting inside to score.

Did you try Benayoun in the Dalglish role, at all?

I am tempted to go back again and (resisting temptations even in January) try the system with the starting squad, this time with Kuyt on the right and Benayoun (rotating perhaps with Maxi) behind the striker. I can sell Masch in January to fund some youngsters only and hope if I do get taken over, it's only by Purslow (who I understand doesn't invest any money). In my current game with a few days before the 2010 summer transfer window closes, I have a £194m transfer kitty and Fabregas, Aguero and Pato sitting at the top of the player search (filtered realistic) almost begging me to sign them . It's very distracting.

I've been using a 4-4-2 modeled upon some of the theorems and suggestions that others have put up recently (like the excellent "Emulating Icons" thread) with alot of success.

This 4-4-1-1, however, is perhaps a very very good alternative for a team with a good squad of talented players already (like one of the top English sides). Testing it now, mid-season on Man Utd, and it's actually proving very good.

Never been a fan of narrow tactics, but after the quite impressive OP, I decided to test it, and won my first game against Birmingham away comprehensively 4-0, without Rooney. Performances since have also been very pleasing.

Berbatov as the AMC performs really well, actually, despite him not being rated highly there. The wingbacks bombing forward is also something quite fun, and it's generally working throughout the pitch.

Very nice indeed.

Ok i thought as CR has terrible workrate and teamwork he wouldnt be suitable for wide mid but kool:thup:

i think milner has decent pace, cant remember wot his stats are exactly but i know they good enough otherwise i wouldnt of bought him.

yeah i also remember higuain playing amrc/fc in old fm's but this one he is FC but is orange for both ML and MR. so guess i can retrain but he will be the alternitive for benema as ST. also have raul that can play amc but is too slow for FC im guessing.

i guess its about trying them out and rotating anyway for fitness purposes.

I didn't realise CR's workrate was that low, always thought of him as quite responsible in his defensive work at United. That might be an issue then, in the tougher games at least - perhaps need to keep an eye on him in such games; or use a more defensive minded player at the right sided CM slot in those games to provide some cover (they will close down out to the wing if needed).

Milner I think has 12 or 13 for pace in my game, at the moment. That's not dreadful, but it does limit him slightly in the wide role. He's actually better suited tactically for the AMC position in this system, though probably not over the likes of Kaka .

I've been using a 4-4-2 modeled upon some of the theorems and suggestions that others have put up recently (like the excellent "Emulating Icons" thread) with alot of success.

This 4-4-1-1, however, is perhaps a very very good alternative for a team with a good squad of talented players already (like one of the top English sides). Testing it now, mid-season on Man Utd, and it's actually proving very good.

Never been a fan of narrow tactics, but after the quite impressive OP, I decided to test it, and won my first game against Birmingham away comprehensively 4-0, without Rooney. Performances since have also been very pleasing.

Berbatov as the AMC performs really well, actually, despite him not being rated highly there. The wingbacks bombing forward is also something quite fun, and it's generally working throughout the pitch.

Very nice indeed.

Glad it's working for you, even if it's United .

"a very very good alternative for a team with a good squad of talented players already (like one of the top English sides)"

That is entirely the context in which it was used by Liverpool historically and my area of interest/knowledge. I'm interested to see how it works for others in Spain or Italy for example, but it's natural 'home' is English football. Though of course Sacchi got the same sort of thing working quite well...

Great post red normally i dont use other peoples tactics but i may give this one ago later on.

I neglected to mention in the OP that the primary concern at attacking corners was to NOT take advantage of any corner bug, so you may find corners to be a bit underwhelming if you don't tweak. The CBs stay back and the FBs are left at 'default' - actually, I have the opposite fullback taking corners (so Johnson takes from left, etc). This is also partly because they DON'T have good ratings for taking corners. I scored from 6 corners in the PL; from memory, 2 or 3 were Torres attacking the back post, maybe one was the 'challenge keeper' player getting a free header, plus there were a couple of goalmouth scrambles.

On defensive corners, all players with the exception of the striker (stay forward) are set simply to 'back'. Initially (10.2) this was based on comments in a couple of the players' autobiographies, that there was no set piece training at Liverpool back then (cue comments about our current zonal system) and that the players organised set pieces themselves during a game, changing things as they saw fit. In 10.3, this seems to give a mixed zonal/man system, with 3 or 4 players lining up on the 6-yard line and the rest doing a loose-man marking job, which I quite like - and proved to work quite well.

The throw-in instructions are designed to keep possession moving quickly, and takers should be set to the same-sided fullback (no one dragged out of position, etc).

I didn't realise CR's workrate was that low, always thought of him as quite responsible in his defensive work at United. That might be an issue then, in the tougher games at least - perhaps need to keep an eye on him in such games; or use a more defensive minded player at the right sided CM slot in those games to provide some cover (they will close down out to the wing if needed).

Milner I think has 12 or 13 for pace in my game, at the moment. That's not dreadful, but it does limit him slightly in the wide role. He's actually better suited tactically for the AMC position in this system, though probably not over the likes of Kaka .

Yeah I think, but not 100% sure, that CR's workrate and teamwork are below 10. i will check when i get home and correct my self if they are.

i can retrain milner to AMC to provide further options and try him i guess.

just out of curiousity..why do you think milner is better suited to amc?

Thanks for uploading the tactic Redmark. I was going to do it from scratch using your instructions but by the time I got in game you uploaded it. Cheers.

I decided to give it a go mid-season with my Liverpool save. Changing tactics mid-season isn't ideal we know and I was also hit with a midfield injury crisis during the period i have tested so far. Johnson was out too but it's easy enough to move Carra to right back and bring Skrtel in.

Here's the team that played the bulk of the games i tested:

Spearing and even Irwin got some playing time in centre midfield due to injuries.

The results so far:

EPL - Bolton (h) 3-0 Easy win as expected (holiday)

FAC - Arsenal (h) 2-2 Report said I was lucky to draw (holiday)

CL - Juventus (a) 2-1 Good result but poor performance again according to report (holiday)

LC - Spurs (n) 0-1 Lost the league cup final to an early goal, though we battered them. Gomes MoM (played)

FAC - Arsenal (a) 4-3 Won an epic at the Emirates. 2-1 down at half time, used corner trick and went 4-2 up before conceeding again late on. (played)

CL - Juventus (h) 0-1 Lost at home in another poor performance but went through on away goals (holiday)

FAC - Chelsea (a) 1-1 Fortunate to draw (holiday)

It's only 7 games and I did swap the tactic mid season and I was without Gerrard and Buenonotte (sp?) who I guess would be ideal for the 'Dalglish role'?

The worrying thing was the 'poor performance' reports and the fact that the games I played we were passed off the park for long periods of time. Especially the Arsenal game but I guess they can do that to anyone.

I'm contemplating whether to persist or revert to the tactic I was using and wait until the new season with everyone fit and some midfield reinforcements better suited to their roles?

Yeah I think, but not 100% sure, that CR's workrate and teamwork are below 10. i will check when i get home and correct my self if they are.

i can retrain milner to AMC to provide further options and try him i guess.

just out of curiousity..why do you think milner is better suited to amc?

From memory - the balance of his attributes seems to suit it; good (i.e. 14+) and well balanced in the main attributes I look for (passing, creativity, decisions, first touch, teamwork) and slightly lower in a couple of attributes that are more important (though still not entirely vital) in the wide roles (flair, dribbling, crossing, pace). I might be misremembering. In this tactic, the AMC position is possibly the least dependent on pace in the entire team - including the goalkeeper, who needs a bit for his sweeper-keeper role. The AMC is a 'pivot', not a driving or dribbling/flair player (though could be, with some tweaks - but then it would be a slightly different tactic).

yeah i understand. just wana get out of this hell hole (work) and go home to play

It's only 7 games and I did swap the tactic mid season and I was without Gerrard and Buenonotte (sp?) who I guess would be ideal for the 'Dalglish role'?

The worrying thing was the 'poor performance' reports and the fact that the games I played we were passed off the park for long periods of time. Especially the Arsenal game but I guess they can do that to anyone.

I'm contemplating whether to persist or revert to the tactic I was using and wait until the new season with everyone fit and some midfield reinforcements better suited to their roles?

Someone else mentioned the weather affecting games, and to be honest I never look at the weather. But it seems you've tried the tactic at about the same point of the season I had a bit of a dip in form: coincidentally, when the weather and the pitches are probably at their worst. Also, I've not 'holidayed' through games, so don't know what effect this might have. While I didn't have to used touchline shouts too often, I would sometimes for a 10-15 minute spell in a game to 'break' a spell where the opposition were getting on the ball, or we were wasting possession.

You will miss Gerrard, particularly in the big games, though Aquilani and Lucas both did ok for me (both though, fractionally under 7.00 for the season, while Gerrard was 7.3 something). Spearing actually scored a couple of nice goals for me. I don't know Buenonotte at all, but Maxi (or Kuyt) should do reasonably well in that role.

However, Babel isn't really suited to this system at all in any position and Carragher is not suited to RB (too slow, not good enough on the ball). I'd be tempted to play Masch (if you haven't sold him; even completely untrained in the position), Kelly or even Spearing (still a tad slow, from memory) at RB, as they have better attributes for it. One of my key January transfers is a backup RB of the right 'type'. Riera or Benayoun (if not sold) should be better options on the left. During my CL run (Di Maria ineligible) I ended up playing Kacaniklic (sp?) in a few games and he did ok; even if his undeveloped attributes were low, they were still better 'balanced' than someone like Babel.

It's your save . I'd be tempted to give it a few more games, but perhaps not if you can't play a more intelligent/hardworking player on the left, or still have problems at RB.

The players might be finding it harder to adjust mid-season if the tactic used previously was significantly different - shape, tempo, pressing, width etc.

Glad it's working for you, even if it's United .

"a very very good alternative for a team with a good squad of talented players already (like one of the top English sides)"

That is entirely the context in which it was used by Liverpool historically and my area of interest/knowledge. I'm interested to see how it works for others in Spain or Italy for example, but it's natural 'home' is English football. Though of course Sacchi got the same sort of thing working quite well...

I'm thinking of trying this in either Italy or Spain, though my first choice (Milan) would need to do some serious recruiting for it to work, methinks. Maybe Valencia.

Will update you if I do go about doing it!

I'm thinking of trying this in either Italy or Spain, though my first choice (Milan) would need to do some serious recruiting for it to work, methinks. Maybe Valencia.

Will update you if I do go about doing it!

I very rarely play with anyone other than Liverpool, but I am tempted to give it a go with Barcelona.

Someone else mentioned the weather affecting games, and to be honest I never look at the weather. But it seems you've tried the tactic at about the same point of the season I had a bit of a dip in form: coincidentally, when the weather and the pitches are probably at their worst. Also, I've not 'holidayed' through games, so don't know what effect this might have. While I didn't have to used touchline shouts too often, I would sometimes for a 10-15 minute spell in a game to 'break' a spell where the opposition were getting on the ball, or we were wasting possession.

You will miss Gerrard, particularly in the big games, though Aquilani and Lucas both did ok for me (both though, fractionally under 7.00 for the season, while Gerrard was 7.3 something). Spearing actually scored a couple of nice goals for me. I don't know Buenonotte at all, but Maxi (or Kuyt) should do reasonably well in that role.

However, Babel isn't really suited to this system at all in any position and Carragher is not suited to RB (too slow, not good enough on the ball). I'd be tempted to play Masch (if you haven't sold him; even completely untrained in the position), Kelly or even Spearing (still a tad slow, from memory) at RB, as they have better attributes for it. One of my key January transfers is a backup RB of the right 'type'. Riera or Benayoun (if not sold) should be better options on the left. During my CL run (Di Maria ineligible) I ended up playing Kacaniklic (sp?) in a few games and he did ok; even if his undeveloped attributes were low, they were still better 'balanced' than someone like Babel.

It's your save . I'd be tempted to give it a few more games, but perhaps not if you can't play a more intelligent/hardworking player on the left, or still have problems at RB.

The players might be finding it harder to adjust mid-season if the tactic used previously was significantly different - shape, tempo, pressing, width etc.

I might persist for a while. I have Johnson coming back, though it'll be a few more games until he's match fit. I might try Masch or Darby at RB. I had given Kelly some games there earlier in the season but loaned him out in January.

Yossi would start on the left but he's on the injury list and Gerrard is a massive miss. He scored 2 and set up Torres in the Bolton game then got injured.

I think I should have taken a more considered approach. I only holidayed as it usually takes half a dozen games for a team to get used to a change of tactics and I wanted a quick fix to see the tactic working well.

Perhaps with more shouts? Pass to feet/Retain Possession etc. might help too but I think getting my injured guys back might help more.

Do you have any recommendations for a CM to compliment Gerrard in the middle? I need to go shopping in the summer whether I stick with the tactic or revert back until next season.

Oh and I was using Mr Houghs previously so I was being spoilt results wise for the most part before trying your tactic.

I might persist for a while. I have Johnson coming back, though it'll be a few more games until he's match fit. I might try Masch or Darby at RB. I had given Kelly some games there earlier in the season but loaned him out in January.

Yossi would start on the left but he's on the injury list and Gerrard is a massive miss. He scored 2 and set up Torres in the Bolton game then got injured.

I think I should have taken a more considered approach. I only holidayed as it usually takes half a dozen games for a team to get used to a change of tactics and I wanted a quick fix to see the tactic working well.

Perhaps with more shouts? Pass to feet/Retain Possession etc. might help too but I think getting my injured guys back might help more.

Do you have any recommendations for a CM to compliment Gerrard in the middle? I need to go shopping in the summer whether I stick with the tactic or revert back until next season.

Oh and I was using Mr Houghs previously so I was being spoilt results wise for the most part before trying your tactic.

I forgot about Darby, he should be a decent option for a few games. Certainly any tactic missing 3-4 key players, particularly with unsuited backups, might struggle. I'll usually use pass to feet/retain possession if the opposition are getting too many highlights early in a game.

I've not really decided on a player to complement Gerrard myself yet; Lucas is developing fairly well and Aquilani does ok, but both can be improved upon; Aquilani is injury prone and not the best defensively, while Lucas is a little too defensive minded. I have a couple of promising youngsters, so I'm reluctant to go and spend big money on a young superstar - hence it's one position I've not spent too much time searching for an established player for - I might have a look tonight. Depending on your takeover situation, you might get huge money to spend in the summer.

I forgot about Darby, he should be a decent option for a few games. Certainly any tactic missing 3-4 key players, particularly with unsuited backups, might struggle. I'll usually use pass to feet/retain possession if the opposition are getting too many highlights early in a game.

I've not really decided on a player to complement Gerrard myself yet; Lucas is developing fairly well and Aquilani does ok, but both can be improved upon; Aquilani is injury prone and not the best defensively, while Lucas is a little too defensive minded. I have a couple of promising youngsters, so I'm reluctant to go and spend big money on a young superstar - hence it's one position I've not spent too much time searching for an established player for - I might have a look tonight. Depending on your takeover situation, you might get huge money to spend in the summer.

Nah. I got Purslow so zero cash injection. I'd given Pepper a few starts before using your tactic and he did ok but even he's injured for me too.

The thing that concerned me was that even though the results I've had weren't all bad the performances by and large were. Though again that might be down to all the injuries I have in midfield.

Hi Redmark just wanna say .....don't know if this tac works or not but u deserve a BIG BRAVO from me at least for this perfect presentation WELL DONE !!!

KEEP ON !!!

I've have been using a 4-4-1-1 with a tweaked TBH framework. Just to say say a great opening post, interesting read..I know a site where you would have to pay for that as a "guide"

I like a holding player, so this may not be for me...who knows?

I've have been using a 4-4-1-1 with a tweaked TBH framework. Just to say say a great opening post, interesting read..I know a site where you would have to pay for that as a "guide"

I like a holding player, so this may not be for me...who knows?

Thanks, glad you liked it .

The absence of a holding player in the tactic is quite fundamental, though that's not to say some of the principles couldn't be used in a tactic that did use one. However I think you'd still need the AMC; possibly the best alternative (I've tried something similar briefly, but not persevered with it) would a 41311, with the 3 all as CMs.

Really great thread redmark, and an interesting tactic too!

I’m thinking about setting up something similar for my Arsenal team to play, but I’m really keen on playing Ramsey as a first teamer (2nd season). How do you think someone with his attributes would go in the ML slot (retrained obviously)? I’m thinking that the only thing lacking would be his pace, but that his other attributes might make up for that. The other option woiuld be to play him next to Cesc in the middle, but I’m thinking this might be a little too lightweight through the middle (even though your tactic isn’t set up with a holding MC anyway…I’m guessing there would still be limits as to the types of MC’s who can work in this system). Anyway, I’d be interested in any feedback you might be able to offer.

cheers

Out of topic but, the flags of the player's nationality in the team screen is very very beautiful.

Where did you get it?

Really great thread redmark, and an interesting tactic too!

I’m thinking about setting up something similar for my Arsenal team to play, but I’m really keen on playing Ramsey as a first teamer (2nd season). How do you think someone with his attributes would go in the ML slot (retrained obviously)? I’m thinking that the only thing lacking would be his pace, but that his other attributes might make up for that. The other option woiuld be to play him next to Cesc in the middle, but I’m thinking this might be a little too lightweight through the middle (even though your tactic isn’t set up with a holding MC anyway…I’m guessing there would still be limits as to the types of MC’s who can work in this system). Anyway, I’d be interested in any feedback you might be able to offer.

cheers

Actually I was just looking for a young left-footed central midfielder for Liverpool (with tons of money to spend) and tried to get Ramsey. That was to partner Gerrard who is a little more 'all round' than Fabregas, but I wouldn't rule out a Fabregas-Ramsay partnership. It should be very effective offensively, probably good enough against the majority of the PL. Where you'll have trouble occasionally is against the likes of Chelsea and Liverpool, with powerful combative, top class midfielders. But that goes for many tactics. The 'tweak' for this tactic is to play, perhaps, Fabregas with Song in games like that; change a player to subtly change the way the tactic plays out.

Alternatively he could play on the left; I'm retraining Delph to do the same. Pace is a 'good to have' in the wide roles, but perhaps not essential (the only players who absolutely need pace are the fullbacks and the striker). I'm not quite decided; for my own teams, certainly to date I've looked for wide players with at least decent pace.

Out of topic but, the flags of the player's nationality in the team screen is very very beautiful.

Where did you get it?

I'm not sure to be honest; I downloaded a graphics mega-pack, so may have come with that (are flags not already in the game?). Appearing on that squad screen is just a matter of right clicking on a column header and choosing 'insert column'; the wide screen monitor is a pain in some ways for this game, but in some screens does allow a lot of information to be displayed.

With Johnson and Gerrard back in light training and with a healthy lead at the top of the table I decided to keep going.

I managed to finish the remainder of the season unbeaten in the league (mid Feb onwards). I lost a sickener to Chelsea in the CL Quarter Final. Drew 1-1 and played well at Stamford Bridge then lost 2-1 at home, falling behind early and then having Stevie G sent off after 25 minutes.

However I knocked Chelsea out of the FA Cup Quarter Finals thumping them 4-1 in the replay at Anfield (Played Chelsea 5 time in 7 games, 2 FA Cup, 2 CL and 1 EPL, losing only once) and then a 6-1 (Torres 4) thumbing of Man Utd in the Semis erased the CL Quarter final defeat. and set up a final with Everton which I won 3-0.

So I closed out the season pretty well once I got some players back from injury.

Looking to the new season I was surprisingly given £50m to spend. I splashed half of that over 4 years to bring in Sneijder from Inter to partner Gerrard in the middle, with Aquilani and Lucas as backups. Masch' is on his way to Bayern or Chelsea for £23.5m so that'll recoup most of it.

Babel has gone to West Ham and I'm looking to bring in Mata from Valencia to play on the left. I have Yossi as a short term fix and Sneijder's younger brother will hopefully develop well too.

The only other position I'm looking to bring in is cover for Johnson at right back and maybe a truly world class centre half that fits in with the tactic, so any recommendations are welcome.

Also I forgot to mention in earlier posts but the 'Agger' role did work really well for me and he did score one absolute screamer.

I think my earlier struggles were down to injuries and changing the tactic midseason. By the end of the season with nearly my first choice XI we were playing well and winning well too.

Nice one.

Redmark, can you suggest which size pitch would suit this tactic narrow/wide long or short?

Thanks.