Is having refereeing mistakes in the game actually legal ?

Something has struck me with regards to an earlier thread i made about playing behind closed doors due to crowd disturbance etc.

And it was pointed out that SI can't go down that route for legal reasons. Same way that they can't do pitch invasions, streakers etc.

However, FM 2010 DOES have refereeing decisions in the game that ARE deliberately flawed, such as chalking off goals when really they should have stood, or allowing goals when they shouldn't have. And it even says this in the after match report regarding the referee.

However, is THAT legal, after all by DELIBERATELY coding into the matches (and might i even add, OFTEN coding it, rather than having them as very isolated incidents), bad refereeing decisions, they are in effect 'bringing the game into disrepute' from both an FA and a refereeing union point of view.

And i really can't see that either of those two organisations would be happy about a game/simulation (call it whatever you will) that DELIBERATELY brings the outcome of matches into disrepute.

It's only the same as a player making a mistake. It's not illegal at all.

Refereeing mistakes don't bring the game into disrepute.

It's only the same as a player making a mistake. It's not illegal at all.

It's not the same as a player missing a header/interception etc, as:-

A: The players don't make match decisions

B: Missing a header/interception etc doesn't bring the game into disrepute

Refereeing mistakes don't bring the game into disrepute.

So the France vs NI match didn't bring the game of football into disrepute then because the ref and linesmen didn't see Henry deliberately handle the ball twice. And FIFA didn't have an emergency meeting because it didn't bring the game of football into disrepute.

Yeah, right

So the France vs NI match didn't bring the game of football into disrepute then because the ref and linesmen didn't see Henry deliberately handle the ball twice. And FIFA didn't have an emergency meeting because it didn't bring the game of football into disrepute.

Yeah, right

And all the officials were charged with bringing the game into disrepute?

So the France vs NI match didn't bring the game of football into disrepute then because the ref and linesmen didn't see Henry deliberately handle the ball twice. And FIFA didn't have an emergency meeting because it didn't bring the game of football into disrepute.

Yeah, right

France vs Republic of Ireland*

Valid point made though.

And all the officials were charged with bringing the game into disrepute?

As we all know, FIFA isn't too hot when it comes to making bold decisions.

Anyone remember Togo and their 'ban'. Enuff said

It isn't a valid point. In the REAL world refereeing brings the game into dispute, for example as mentioned the FIFA meeting due to Henry's cheating.

Does this happen in FM? No. Referees make mistakes in FM, the same way Rooney misses from 2 yards out in FM. It doesn't bring the game into dispute. Which is why it is legal.

One can only be found to have brought the game into disrepute through a deliberate action. I think you realise this which is why you have repeatedly typed the word in capitals. However the deliberate action in this case occurs after the fact. A refereeing mistake is just that, a mistake. They happen in all sports, and the referee is not found to have brought the game into disrepute. Of course were the referee to deliberately make the wrong call he would have done so, and I'm sure this is why we don't see commentary along the lines of "the linesman has his flag up after pocketing a 50 from the home team" in FM.

Hooliganism and streaking are different, one doesn't accidentally do these things and that is the key difference in this case.

Wrong referee calls are obviously controversial but legally don't satisfy the requirements of bringing the game into disrepute.

Edit: I'm sure I could word this better but does it help people understand the difference?

A game where referees are 100% right would be boring and not realistic.

Referee being coded to make some odd mistakes is just a sensible way to keep the game quite close to reality...

The only way TBH

A game where referees are 100% right would be boring and not realistic.

Referee being coded to make some odd mistakes is just a sensible way to keep the game quite close to reality...

The only way TBH

Odd mistakes yes, but i think we would all agree that there are far too many of these 'controversial decisions' in the game atm. Frequency definitely needs a tone down.

One can only be found to have brought the game into disrepute through a deliberate action. I think you realise this which is why you have repeatedly typed the word in capitals. However the deliberate action in this case occurs after the fact. A refereeing mistake is just that, a mistake. They happen in all sports, and the referee is not found to have brought the game into disrepute. Of course were the referee to deliberately make the wrong call he would have done so, and I'm sure this is why we don't see commentary along the lines of "the linesman has his flag up after pocketing a 50 from the home team" in FM.

Hooliganism and streaking are different, one doesn't accidentally do these things and that is the key difference in this case.

Wrong referee calls are obviously controversial but legally don't satisfy the requirements of bringing the game into disrepute.

Edit: I'm sure I could word this better but does it help people understand the difference?

Yeah you're spot on mate

Yeah but it happens (refs being bought). Are we going to pretend in our little FM world that it isn't true? I'm not saying it should be implemented, just thinking that certain issues aren't dealt with on level terms.

On a related note please tone down the number of disallowed goals in the next version. Bloody ridiculous.

Yeah but it happens (refs being bought). Are we going to pretend in our little FM world that it isn't true? I'm not saying it should be implemented, just thinking that certain issues aren't dealt with on level terms.

On a related note please tone down the number of disallowed goals in the next version. Bloody ridiculous.

Players die in real life. I don't really want that implemented. Plus, as I have already said, that actually would cause legal problems I believe.

Players die in real life. I don't really want that implemented. Plus, as I have already said, that actually would cause legal problems I believe.

On CM4, I often wished I could call my goalie into the office after playing a match away at barnet

see http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=193494

and 'remove his hands' in a 'training ground accident' but there would be legal issues there as well

and I'm sure this is why we don't see commentary along the lines of "the linesman has his flag up after pocketing a 50 from the home team" in FM.

Classic line, Sums it all for me. Mistakes by there very nature are not deliberate ergo do not bring the game into disrepute.

It isn't a valid point. In the REAL world refereeing brings the game into dispute, for example as mentioned the FIFA meeting due to Henry's cheating.

Does this happen in FM? No. Referees make mistakes in FM, the same way Rooney misses from 2 yards out in FM. It doesn't bring the game into dispute. Which is why it is legal.

The referee didn't bring the game into disrepute nor did FIFA ever suggest he did. A player cheated and the referee was fooled, as I might add were the games commentators who only got offended when they saw the replay! What brought the game into disrepute was the cheating of Henry, not an honest mistake from a referee

Classic line, Sums it all for me. Mistakes by there very nature are not deliberate ergo do not bring the game into disrepute.

So Juventus, Fiorentina, and a whole host of other clubs who have been punished/investigated/currently being investigated for match fixing, aren't bringing the game into disrepute. They are just making the MISTAKE of buying/trying to buy the officials/opposition players before the game begins.

And the 2 scandinavian teams weren't really bringing the game into disrepute by playing a 2-2 draw in the Euro cup a few years ago to deny Italy a place in the next round. They were only making the MISTAKE of letting each other score twice. (And don't let anyone try and say that THAT match WASN'T fixed, even the world's bookies refused to take bets on it ffs because they KNEW as well as did everyone else in football what was going to happen)

In Cyprus referee's mistakes are just illusions.

watch some serious mistakes by the "best" referee in Cyprus in the cup final

why FIFA care too much about henry cheating and not with that?

The referee didn't bring the game into disrepute nor did FIFA ever suggest he did. A player cheated and the referee was fooled, as I might add were the games commentators who only got offended when they saw the replay! What brought the game into disrepute was the cheating of Henry, not an honest mistake from a referee

Yeah you're right, I didn't word that right at all

In Cyprus referee's mistakes are just illusions.

watch some serious mistakes by the "best" referee in Cyprus in the cup final

why FIFA care too much about henry cheating and not with that?

Probably because the Cyrpus cup final doesn't consist of 32 nations fighting for the biggest trophy in world football every 4 years, not to mention passionate players representing their countries on the biggest stage world football has ever seen

So Juventus, Fiorentina, and a whole host of other clubs who have been punished/investigated/currently being investigated for match fixing, aren't bringing the game into disrepute. They are just making the MISTAKE of buying/trying to buy the officials/opposition players before the game begins.

And the 2 scandinavian teams weren't really bringing the game into disrepute by playing a 2-2 draw in the Euro cup a few years ago to deny Italy a place in the next round. They were only making the MISTAKE of letting each other score twice. (And don't let anyone try and say that THAT match WASN'T fixed, even the world's bookies refused to take bets on it ffs because they KNEW as well as did everyone else in football what was going to happen)

Are you serious?

Bribing someone is completely different to a referee actually making a mistake. A referee making calls after having been bribed is obviously deliberately making these calls and therefore they are not mistakes.

In Cyprus referee's mistakes are just illusions.

watch some serious mistakes by the "best" referee in Cyprus in the cup final

why FIFA care too much about henry cheating and not with that?

I've seen the video and frankly dont see that many fouls. The one in the penalty area is a clear dive and the two footed tackles clearly touched the ball. The first clip is a foul and the last one could also be seen as a foul but I dont think they are that extreme. I see worse in top leagues every week. If anything out of those clips on the whole most are not fouls but dives or ball before man.

this is why we don't see commentary along the lines of "the linesman has his flag up after pocketing a 50 from the home team" in FM.

I literally lol'd then after reading that, first post in a while on these forums that has made me laugh.. keep up the good work.

As we all know, FIFA isn't too hot when it comes to making bold decisions.

Anyone remember Togo and their 'ban'. Enuff said

FAIL.

African Cup of Nations = CAF's jurisdiction

Problem here is that you cant bring up an issue regarding referee mistakes. Any time you complain you are warned by the FA and usually banned or fined. IRL this doesn't happen all the time. Most times you get a hearing and on more than one occasion, a referee has been banned from refereeing follow up games.

FAIL.

African Cup of Nations = CAF's jurisdiction

Final word is by FIFA. Who were overseeing the event with a view to the WC within the same continent.

I've seen the video and frankly dont see that many fouls. The one in the penalty area is a clear dive and the two footed tackles clearly touched the ball. The first clip is a foul and the last one could also be seen as a foul but I dont think they are that extreme. I see worse in top leagues every week. If anything out of those clips on the whole most are not fouls but dives or ball before man.

At least you had the patience to finish watching that clip lol

I turned it off after about the 20th repeat of the dive for the penalty

At least you had the patience to finish watching that clip lol

I turned it off after about the 20th repeat of the dive for the penalty

Yeah, each time it looked more like a dive so I dont understand how they think it was a penalty.

So Juventus, Fiorentina, and a whole host of other clubs who have been punished/investigated/currently being investigated for match fixing, aren't bringing the game into disrepute. They are just making the MISTAKE of buying/trying to buy the officials/opposition players before the game begins.

this has nothing to do with your OP, and as JamesB said is a completely different matter

this has nothing to do with your OP, and as JamesB said is a completely different matter

It was said in response to a poster who posted that by their nature 'mistakes aren't deliberate'. When in fact 'mistakes' can be eliberate.

What makes you think there is a legal problem with having 'behind closed doors matches' and other real world incidents that are not football related, and what comparison is there between that and refereeing mistakes?

Did SI say there was a legal issue? If they didn't then it's not official.

Perhaps they just don't add real world troubles because there's no real need for them. Refereeing mistakes are a common and everyday aspect of the football world and not something to do with fans. They have to be included to make the game as realistic as possible. Fan troubles are something the real world can do without and is possible to be stopped.

Give me one good reason we need streakers or pitch invasions in the game. They're extra work that takes developer time away from improving needed areas of the game for one thing.

This didn't need a new thread if it just a continuation of another thread either.

I think it's safe to assume that SI don't just decide themsleves where the legal boundaries are and that they (and SEGA for that matter) have some pretty handy lawyers advising them. It's therefore a safe bet that the game, at present, doesn't break any laws in this respect.

It's only the same as a player making a mistake. It's not illegal at all.

I could also go down the road of 'but in real life (x) who plays for (x) has never scored an own goal' therefore it isn't correct to have him scoring them in versions of CM/FM. Or for him to be hacking players down with 2 feet if he has never ever been sent off etc etc.

I could also go down the road of 'but in real life (x) who plays for (x) has never scored an own goal' therefore it isn't correct to have him scoring them in versions of CM/FM. Or for him to be hacking players down with 2 feet if he has never ever been sent off etc etc.

What? Why do you keep changing the subject?

My word this thread has more twists than a series of 24!

As has been said already referees making mistakes in game can not be illegal and should be a part of FM as they are part of the game. If they were to ommit refs blunders then one could make the argument that Wayne Rooney should never miss the target, that goalkeepers should never drop the ball teams should always score and teams should never concede and we end up at a stalemate whereby it is actually impossible to play the game, literally.

Mistakes are part of football, and an integeral part at that, without mistakes (from players or officials) in real life and in game there would be very few goal scoring chances.

Just as it was mentioned, crowd trouble, illegal betting, streakers and any other Illegal act has no place in the game or its virtual interpretations.

Final word is by FIFA. Who were overseeing the event with a view to the WC within the same continent.

My apologies for going off-topic, but that's absolute rubbish.

So, because the WC is also going to be held in the African continent the CAF would have to consult FIFA? The CAF can do as they please as it's their tournament. If it's a friendly or a World Cup then would become FIFA's problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Togo_national_football_team#January_2010_bus_ambush_and_ban

It's not the same as a player missing a header/interception etc, as:-

A: The players don't make match decisions

B: Missing a header/interception etc doesn't bring the game into disrepute

Well - let's imagine referee Paul Durkin has a shocker in the game.

Would the real Paul Durkin sue SI for defamation of character?

Or if Rio Ferdinand keeps getting sent off for violent conduct in the game.

Would the real Rio sue SI for giving him a bad name?

Or if David James keeps fumbling the ball in the game and giving up soft goals.

Would the real one be justified in sueing SI?

Of course not - it's just a computer game that has no bearing on what the real-life versions, playing or refereeing, get up to.

Most of the time it works the opposite way - SI makes most of these characters look good.

The referees in the game make far fewer mistakes than the real life versions.

Odd mistakes yes, but i think we would all agree that there are far too many of these 'controversial decisions' in the game atm. Frequency definitely needs a tone down.

Well, depending on who you ask, every football match in real life has controversial decisions...

What makes you think there is a legal problem with having 'behind closed doors matches' and other real world incidents that are not football related, and what comparison is there between that and refereeing mistakes?

Did SI say there was a legal issue? If they didn't then it's not official.

Perhaps they just don't add real world troubles because there's no real need for them. Refereeing mistakes are a common and everyday aspect of the football world and not something to do with fans. They have to be included to make the game as realistic as possible. Fan troubles are something the real world can do without and is possible to be stopped.

Give me one good reason we need streakers or pitch invasions in the game. They're extra work that takes developer time away from improving needed areas of the game for one thing.

This didn't need a new thread if it just a continuation of another thread either.

It would be more realistic?

Something has struck me with regards to an earlier thread i made about playing behind closed doors due to crowd disturbance etc.

And it was pointed out that SI can't go down that route for legal reasons. Same way that they can't do pitch invasions, streakers etc.

However, FM 2010 DOES have refereeing decisions in the game that ARE deliberately flawed, such as chalking off goals when really they should have stood, or allowing goals when they shouldn't have. And it even says this in the after match report regarding the referee.

However, is THAT legal, after all by DELIBERATELY coding into the matches (and might i even add, OFTEN coding it, rather than having them as very isolated incidents), bad refereeing decisions, they are in effect 'bringing the game into disrepute' from both an FA and a refereeing union point of view.

And i really can't see that either of those two organisations would be happy about a game/simulation (call it whatever you will) that DELIBERATELY brings the outcome of matches into disrepute.

Mistakes are coded in the game, correct. But it is also a completely random event that can happen in any FM game.

So the France vs NI match didn't bring the game of football into disrepute then because the ref and linesmen didn't see Henry deliberately handle the ball twice. And FIFA didn't have an emergency meeting because it didn't bring the game of football into disrepute.

Yeah, right

As has been said, were any of the referee's charged? Or where then just duped by a player?

Odd mistakes yes, but i think we would all agree that there are far too many of these 'controversial decisions' in the game atm. Frequency definitely needs a tone down.

You'll agree. You don't soeak for the entire community and there is no back-up to your statement, ergo it's your opinion.

So Juventus, Fiorentina, and a whole host of other clubs who have been punished/investigated/currently being investigated for match fixing, aren't bringing the game into disrepute. They are just making the MISTAKE of buying/trying to buy the officials/opposition players before the game begins.

And the 2 scandinavian teams weren't really bringing the game into disrepute by playing a 2-2 draw in the Euro cup a few years ago to deny Italy a place in the next round. They were only making the MISTAKE of letting each other score twice. (And don't let anyone try and say that THAT match WASN'T fixed, even the world's bookies refused to take bets on it ffs because they KNEW as well as did everyone else in football what was going to happen)

Bribery is illegal so won't be in FM. The second bit maybe widely percieved to be true, but where is the proof?

I could also go down the road of 'but in real life (x) who plays for (x) has never scored an own goal' therefore it isn't correct to have him scoring them in versions of CM/FM. Or for him to be hacking players down with 2 feet if he has never ever been sent off etc etc.

An own goal can happen to any player at any time. Your just becoming ridiculous in an attempt to try to justify your point.

It was said in response to a poster who posted that by their nature 'mistakes aren't deliberate'. When in fact 'mistakes' can be eliberate.

Mistakes by their very definition are accidental (i.e. not deliberate). What you described above with Juventus etc. was cheating which is a whole different thing altogether.

To use the France vs Ireland (only use Rep of in official documentation) match as a definition in both cases "The Referee and linesman made a mistake when they didn't spot Henry cheating twice in the klead up to France's goal." Hope that clears it up for you.

Give me one good reason we need streakers or pitch invasions in the game. They're extra work that takes developer time away from improving needed areas of the game for one thing.

BOOBIES!!!!! Now there's your good reason:D

BOOBIES!!!!! Now there's your good reason:D

Hahahaa!!! Classic!

Mistakes are in everyday games. It happens. Thats why there in the game.

The masochist in me, for computer games, to make games challenging and realistic, etc, etc. I actually, don't mind this being included; and I do prefer referee mistakes to be included in the game, as long as they are rare then. Then I am fine with it.

If SI programmed 'hooligans' in the game, they would likely put a bias towards Millwall to have thugs rather than Bournemouth, for example. The likelihood of referees making mistakes is random and the same collectively for each referee. So it is not an accusation on the referee, like if Millwall fans were always banned in game, that would be an insult towards them, as they were programmed to have thuglike fans.

But it is a good point you make, and I understand your logic:thup:

The likelihood of referees making mistakes is random and the same collectively for each referee.

Not quite true as each ref have their own attributes in the database.

Not quite true as each ref have their own attributes in the database.

And Howard Webb's will surely be changed after today:D