Will these two things EVER be fixed?

1)Dynamic reputation. No matter what, you can win the Champions League 100 times, your league reputation will stay what it is. Which leads to #2

2)THIS very lame pattern:

You coach a team in a league with a lower reputation. You develop talent. You are BOMBARDED with requests to purchase the player, the player becomes unhappy, the player then ruins team morale.

The transfer market is just never as busy as it is in FM. Teams dont sell their 3-4 best players EVERY year, and yet EVERY single year I am bombarded with moral ruining requests.

1) I'd love this. I have a massive(ish) thread on it somewhere.

2) As you say, would only really work if 1 was implemented.

In fact here it is

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=166464&highlight=dynamic+league+reputation

good thread and well said;)

Yea but did the Ukrainian league suddenly get more appeal because they won the uefa cup last season?? I don't think so, infact irl teams that come from smaller nations and win european competitions normally lose their players

Yea but did the Ukrainian league suddenly get more appeal because they won the uefa cup last season?? I don't think so, infact irl teams that come from smaller nations and win european competitions normally lose their players

But if Ukrainian teams reached the last four of european competion on a regular basis then the league reputation would definatly improve.

You cannot base an argument on one result.

In answer to your point that teams who "over acheive" lose their best players is rubbish. In my honest opinion I think the Portugese and Dutch league have some incredibly talented players who could easily get into EPL teams 1st XI, yet they are not regularly being poached.

But if Ukrainian teams reached the last four of european competion on a regular basis then the league reputation would definatly improve.

You cannot base an argument on one result.

In answer to your point that teams who "over acheive" lose their best players is rubbish. In my honest opinion I think the Portugese and Dutch league have some incredibly talented players who could easily get into EPL teams 1st XI, yet they are not regularly being poached.

It's often more to do with finances than league stature anyway. Ajax became a selling team not necassarily because players wanted to leave them to play football elsewhere (for footballing reasons) but because they needed the money from their sales and/or couldn't afford to have 10-15 stars on big salaries.

League reputation only increases in real life when SEVERAL teams do well CONSISTANTLY in Europe, not just one team doing well. If Rangers win the CL three times in a row, how does it make playing for Rangers against Aberdeen, Hibs and Falkirk four times a year more attractive to Messi and C. Ronaldo than opting to play against Man U, Chelsea, Barcelona, Valencia, Juventus, AC Millan, etc?

Similarly, you nurture a player from youth level, when he wins the CL three times with Rangers or Malmo FC or Plopski Town, why on Earth WOULDN'T he want to test himself with Barcelona or Man U or, heck, even Everton or Spurs for that matter, even IF he's loved that club since he was a boy? Unless he's a serious Xenophobe or has a real problem leaving his home town, like a sick relative or something, he has no reason to stay. Sorry, but playing in England or Spain against better opposition is a much more glamorous option than staying in Scotland/Scandanavia/some former Soviet Union state.

I know it's annoying, but it's the way of things. If you don't like the game the way it is, you can simply change your players' attitude to the transfers with FMRTE. If you don't want to use a third party cheat programme, you'll just have to accept that this is how things are.

You cannot base an argument on one result.

In answer to your point that teams who "over acheive" lose their best players is rubbish.

To be fair though, straight after winning the Champions League Porto did sell their best players didn't they? Sure Mourinho had a bit to do with some of them leaving, but the club could have rejected the transfers if it wanted. The fact of the matter is, the players themselves probably realised that this was a once-in-a-lifetime type achievement and so moving to bigger clubs was logical.

It's the way of football nowadays and, although I really like the idea of league reputation increasing/decreasing, I don't see it happening in the real world because the big clubs do always poach players from any "lower-level" team that has a bit of success. This then means that they cannot recreate their success the next season, and so the league's reputation doesn't receive any more of a boost in the long-run.

Maybe Shakhtar are an exception (apart from Chygrynskyi going to Barca), but I believe that has more to do with the fact that they can pay their players more than many western european clubs can. However, seeing as they were recently knocked out of the Europa League by Fulham, it does show that success over multiple years is a lot easier in FM than in real life - even with the same squad.

Yea but did the Ukrainian league suddenly get more appeal because they won the uefa cup last season?? I don't think so, infact irl teams that come from smaller nations and win european competitions normally lose their players

Sorry to burst your bubble but the fact that Ukraine has won a continental competition last year is reflected in their league rating. From 2007 to 2010 their league rating has gone up by 2 points!

That's all very nice but the real problem here is the following:

- I manage a bulgarian team 5 years. 5 consecutive years i win the leauge+cup and get in CL every single time. I dont achieve anything else in europe BUT I do manage to get some really good players be it young or slightly older.

Turning point:

- I leave the club, the new manager sells EVERY single one of my players (total worth 100mil.) and instead buys 50-100k crap.

So, to have a league change its reputation you will need teams to have better players not just 1 team and then as they do better and better the league will become stronger, more interesting and challenging drawing players, tv rights whatnot.

How can you achieve this if the scenario above keeps happening?

This is what needs fixing foremost. Because there was no reason for that to happen. I could keep my players in the club for 5 years but the AI sells right away. Dumbarton.

I actually don't have those problems.

I'm playing with KV Kortrijk in the Belgian First Division. I've won the first division 7 times, and won the champions league on 2 occasions.

I'm able to sign very good players (Iker Muniain, Adam Pepper, Sergio Canales,...) and I can keep them. Barcelona offered 40 milion euros for Adam Pepper, I refused and he was still happy.

I've also got some very good youth players, got loads of offers for them and they are more than happy to stay.

That will be more to do with the money in the league and the standard of player going there rather than the fact they won the UEFA Cup.

Rangers could have won the UEFA Cup a couple of seasons ago and it wouldn't have made the SPL any more attractive.

I wasn't aware of that... however, this does beg the question, what does make the league standard increase? Frankly there used to be a lot of money invested in the Romanian league in the past yet, as far as I can recollect, the league standard has been the same since I started playing (FM2006).

Indeed the major obstacle to a relatively credible and enjoyable Dynamic League Reputation is the horrible AI transfer system.

As pointed out by Vermundr, no matter how well you can do with YOUR team from Scandianvia/Eastern Europe, the rest of the league will still be held back by moronic AI decisions, like signing awful players who won't help developing the global league reputation/level.

It's no use doing well in European Cups every year, if the other clubs of your league get their ass handed to them at their first outing...

No matter how much money they have, they'll make baffling signings/decisions, basically sabotaging their chances to improve, despite having the chance to do so .

As long as AI clubs will operate like ******** monkeys on the transfer market, there's little point in adding the Dynamic League Reputation...

The transfer market is just never as busy as it is in FM. Teams dont sell their 3-4 best players EVERY year.

Actually, IRL in Brazil this is not so far from the truth, but not in FM where brazilian teams never (or almost never) need to sell their best players.

I actually think its quite the contrary, its too easy to keep your players when you are winning everything in FM. If you keep giving them new contracts they never ever want to leave. It doesnt work like that IRL. Look at Cristiano Ronaldo, who was at Man Utd or Robinho, who was at Real Madrid.

I believe that IRL every player wants to go to the higher reputation teams and better leagues, because of the money and to prove themselves. Look at Porto. They won the CL, lost a lot players and their manager. What happens in FM is that sometimes its also too easy to find good replacemnets for your players, who usually settle quickly everywhere they go.

So, i think that the unrealistic part of the game is not really players wanting to go to bigger clubs (i believe it should be even worse), but the ability of smaller clubs to sign young talent and keep then or easily replace them.

Think about it: if you list the 10 top clubs in the world right now, it would be the same (or almost) as 10, 20 years ago. Professional football is not as dynamic as FM, i believe. The best players all goi just in one direction, top clubs.

Indeed the major obstacle to a relatively credible and enjoyable Dynamic League Reputation is the horrible AI transfer system.

As pointed out by Vermundr, no matter how well you can do with YOUR team from Scandianvia/Eastern Europe, the rest of the league will still be held back by moronic AI decisions, like signing awful players who won't help developing the global league reputation/level.

It's no use doing well in European Cups every year, if the other clubs of your league get their ass handed to them at their first outing...

No matter how much money they have, they'll make baffling signings/decisions, basically sabotaging their chances to improve, despite having the chance to do so .

As long as AI clubs will operate like ******** monkeys on the transfer market, there's little point in adding the Dynamic League Reputation...

THIS right here should REALLY be fixed!

I'm playing with KV Kortrijk. I'm able to sign very good players (Iker Muniain, Adam Pepper, Sergio Canales,...)

If you want realism, this shouldnt happen in the first place. I think that we are "too smart" in the transfer market (because of previous knowledge from other saves and so) and not exactly the AI is stupid (ok, it is a little stupid, but thats not my point).

Tell me how many good prospects from england or spain ever signed for KV Kortrijk? I doubt that they even scout the league...

It's likely something that is discussed each year amongst the head researchers and a few tweaks made here and there.

Thanks for the reply

Is there some official source that ranks the football leagues in europe for example? There should be one but I can't seem to find it. I'm sure if we see the rankings now and 10 years ago there will be differences - maybe not huge at the top 3 but from then on a lot.

Is there some official source that ranks the football leagues in europe for example? There should be one but I can't seem to find it. I'm sure if we see the rankings now and 10 years ago there will be differences - maybe not huge at the top 3 but from then on a lot.

Yes, it's the UEFA league coefficients, the same as you find in FM. Have a look on the UEFA website, should be there somewhere!

Is there some official source that ranks the football leagues in europe for example? There should be one but I can't seem to find it. I'm sure if we see the rankings now and 10 years ago there will be differences - maybe not huge at the top 3 but from then on a lot.

here http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/index.html

but at first glance i'm confused by it

edit: its not an official source, but check this graphic too: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/plots.html

I think that we are "too smart" in the transfer market

Very fair point indeed...

The success we manage to achieve with clubs from smaller leagues [or with obscure clubs from England, Italy etc] is something that wouldn't happen in real life.

The human player has a very big advantage over AI clubs, so he's able to create a situation that has no actual counterpart in real football.

Not even Alex Ferguson could lead Frickley Athletic to EPL, or Mourinho could win a Champions League with Rio Ave.

Leagues and clubs DO have some sort of long-term variations, just too small to justify the level of success a human manager can attain in FM, and it's because of that "impossible success" we're wishing for Dynamic Reputation.

Sure, it's a game and it's ok cutting some corners in order to make it more enjoyable and fun [who would play in "minor" countries if all he could ever achieve would be a couple of decent outings in European Cups, opposed to a whole lot of nothing?]

In fairness, the prestige of football leagues never really vary that much, at least not to the point of having then-mediocre leagues becoming the Promised Land, or of Top Leagues fading into oblivion.

Serie A has "fallen", but at its lowest point I doubt it'll ever go lower than 5th.

Just like Dutch league, or SPL or Russian league won't ever become top leagues.

Tradition, Money and Exposure...

It's possble to become rich, but the tradition can't be bought [ask Man City], and the exposure comes along when the level rises as a whole, not just because ONE or TWO clubs rise above.

Ajax winning 7-0 against VVV will happen regardless of Ajax being a superpower in Europe or being just "luxury filler".

But if Ukrainian teams reached the last four of european competion on a regular basis then the league reputation would definatly improve.

You cannot base an argument on one result.

In answer to your point that teams who "over acheive" lose their best players is rubbish. In my honest opinion I think the Portugese and Dutch league have some incredibly talented players who could easily get into EPL teams 1st XI, yet they are not regularly being poached.

If ajax had kept all their best players (if they had the same financial stature as Premier League teams) they'd be up there with the Barcelona's, Man Utd's and Inter Milans of Europe.

tbh i have the opposite problem to the op

To answer the people who claim that things dont change:

In 2004: Germany was the SEVENTH ranked team in UEFA, today they are SECOND. That is a gigantic difference. If England wasnt ranked so high, people would be up in arms. The game is FAR too EPL specific.

1)Dynamic reputation. No matter what, you can win the Champions League 100 times, your league reputation will stay what it is. Which leads to #2

2)THIS very lame pattern:

You coach a team in a league with a lower reputation. You develop talent. You are BOMBARDED with requests to purchase the player, the player becomes unhappy, the player then ruins team morale.

The transfer market is just never as busy as it is in FM. Teams dont sell their 3-4 best players EVERY year, and yet EVERY single year I am bombarded with moral ruining requests.

Brilliant arguement mate and i agree with you especially on your second point.

To answer the people who claim that things dont change:

In 2004: Germany was the SEVENTH ranked team in UEFA, today they are SECOND. That is a gigantic difference. If England wasnt ranked so high, people would be up in arms. The game is FAR too EPL specific.

True i reckon they should develop the lower countries more, not to say that they don`t but everyone goes with a EPL team.

To answer the people who claim that things dont change:

In 2004: Germany was the SEVENTH ranked team in UEFA, today they are SECOND. That is a gigantic difference. If England wasnt ranked so high, people would be up in arms. The game is FAR too EPL specific.

germany are not second, spain are. they are not even above italy in third but could be in a couple of years

10 years ago, the Ukrainian league was unheard of. Now they are getting a lot of talent from Brazil.

League reputations do change. Teams from the French league have done better in the last few years. The English league has improved since the PL. WE need dynamic reputations to increase the longevity of games. Team reputations dont adjust quick enough either after success.

here http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/index.html

but at first glance i'm confused by it

edit: its not an official source, but check this graphic too: http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/plots.html

Thanks for the reply. Everyon take a look at the second site or just the graph here:

As you can see England were 6-7 a bit over 10 years ago. Can anyone believe that now? Bottom line is leage reputations change and we all know it. The problem is how to make the teams act like they are in a bigger league.

Certainly it won't work by selling all the star players you as a player bought for them and replacing them with say 100k ones just to fit some kind of AI "reputation" framework. It is as if this frame contains all the teams of a certain league and holds them within some limits. Instead of giving each team the opportunity to develop itself.

So either make the whole league "reputation" framework changeable OR allow teams to stay at the level you brought them to. If I as a player am able to hold on to my players so can the AI. Not sell ALL your players in 1 transfer window just because there are offers and despite not needing the money.

Posted this before, elsewhere, but I think it worth a re-post.

You shouldn't be able to attract world-class players if you're in a small league. You'd be at best a place that good players went once their careers were winding down, or after they flopped at a big club (Turkey sometimes plays a similar role nowadays).

IRL you'd leave for a different league if you wanted to work with world-class players:

Mourinho didn't stay at Porto (in a pretty good league) thinking he could do it again next year - as soon as a team IRL over-performs, it gets stripped of all its players. It happened to Porto, it happened to Leverkusen before them, it happened to Zenit. And they can't replace them with equal quality.

In order to be a league with a high reputation, you need to be rich. If players were amateurs, no one would think twice before leaving Hull City for European nights with Celtic or Rangers, but players aren't amateurs.

A league can become attractive to players pretty much through cash alone, though a high standard of football would be needed for it to stay attractive. eg. MLS' plan: throw money at ageing European stars, their arrival raises the standard in the league, raises popularity and thus income from fans >> the combo of higher standards and money then allows better players of a normal age to be bought (if anyone can name a counter-example, I'd like to hear it), so this is really a discussion about dynamic cash flow, TV money and sponsorship, which would then feed into league reputation.

The relevant issues, then, in no order, are

1. exchange rate and tax issues. It would be ridiculous if FM tried to create such economic projections, but IRL it has a notable effect (especially now that the pound has slumped).

2. Tycoons. The Italian league (which actually has lower attendances than the English championship), during its years of success and dominance, owed a lot to chairmen's cash (remember when clubs like Lazio, were a big deal alongside the Milans) : when they all hit the wall, the Italian league slumped, and now is a long way behind the top two.

In a league like Russia, if your team started doing well ,and your national team started doing well, you would probably see some tycoons poring into your league, as has happened in recent years. There could be a bit of chicken-and-egg about which comes first, but if you were lucky, you'd get a snowball effect, and more tv money, tycoon money and sponsorship would result in better football which would result in more money and so onward.

This would be extremely unlikely in Malta or Azerbaijan, which are just too small to have a load of eager millionaires floating about with cash on their hands - same for most little leagues

3. TV Money. The English league's success is built on TV money, for the Spanish clubs, which negotiate their own independent agreements, even more so - Real and Barca make pretty much all the TV money in Spain.

If you were China, and you took a team to consistent glory, and put together an impressive team that dominated Asia, while the Chinese national team benefited by qualifying for major tournaments, you could see interest in football rising.

In a country that big, that would translate to a ton of extra attendance and tv money in the league, more sponsorship, and hopefully some tycoons too - with that money, other teams in the league could improve also, and you'd once again hopefully be able to turn that into increased league reputation as you brought in better players.

If you were Northern Ireland, you just wouldn't have the TV market to tap into. The country's too small

It'd be nice to be able to turn back the tide, but the fact is that clubs who once won European cups (Benfica, Celtic, Ajax) are now happy with a good run in the UEFA cup because small nations don't function as good business propositions. And every time they get a good side together, they get raped: Zenit pays v.good wages, but still lost players to the likes of Tottenham, despite surpassing them in the UEFA Cup.

That's why people are always suggesting Atlantic leagues and the like: unless they pool their TV audiences, there is no way that small countries will challenge at the top table ever again.

One team alone won't boost a league's rep.

If they can decently model the dynamic finances, It'd be great, but unless they really got it right before putting it in the game, it would ruin that year's FM.

I'd like to see league reputation place slightly less limitation on team reputation, though - to tweak it slightly in favour of people who pull off unrealistically impressive feats in little leagues.

Judging how to implement a possible real life scenario into a game where non-real life scenarios exist is more than a little difficult.

Suprisingly, a 30 year old unknown manager taking a club from the bottom of the welsh league to 100 years of champions league trophies isn't top of the list on realism features to be implemented into a football sim.

a) We don't know what effect this would have on the team in question

b) We don't know what effect this would have on the league in question

c) We don't know what effect this would have on the economics of the country in question

It's all guesswork, not to mention the programming required to implement a realistic simulation based on guesswork.

Having said all that, I hate that after 50 years of domestic and european success at Benfica, I'm ultimately a step-up club for quality players who all get bought by Madrid/Barca/Utd etc. So would like something in place to help retain players.

^This.

I'm sorry but if you want to play in a better quality league and retain your players then you'll have to do what Mourinho did in real life and change to a more lucrative and financially viable league.

Or do we want the game to be some big fantasy world that doesn't mirror real life?

Or do we want the game to be some big fantasy world that doesn't mirror real life?

Um, it is

Um, it is

Oh that's right, that was SI's marketing campaign.

Similarly, you nurture a player from youth level, when he wins the CL three times with Rangers or Malmo FC or Plopski Town, why on Earth WOULDN'T he want to test himself with Barcelona or Man U or, heck, even Everton or Spurs for that matter, even IF he's loved that club since he was a boy? Unless he's a serious Xenophobe or has a real problem leaving his home town, like a sick relative or something, he has no reason to stay. Sorry, but playing in England or Spain against better opposition is a much more glamorous option than staying in Scotland/Scandanavia/some former Soviet Union state.

I know it's annoying, but it's the way of things. If you don't like the game the way it is, you can simply change your players' attitude to the transfers with FMRTE. If you don't want to use a third party cheat programme, you'll just have to accept that this is how things are.

Lolz. The thing you seem to forget (or maybe not because you are probably an EPL player) is that the current transfer system is unrealistic. You can buy players that IRL would be out of your reach..

For example in FM Ive seen people buy Oscar Cardozo, Bruno Alves, Di Maria, etc.. to clubs like Everton or even Newcastle. These players IRL would reject moves to small clubs (relatively) no matter what league they are in (one of them already turned down that option) yet in the game its a pretty easy thing to do..

Some of the moves from leagues that arent that far down to the English/Spanish leagues (smaller clubs) only happen when the players are desperate for cash.

Also the fact that in the second season Dzeko seems to accept any club lol.

Ofc the system will never be perfect but at least it wouldnt only benefit the spanish and english leagues..