The Art of Tweaking - A Discussion

Premise 1 - There is no such thing as a perfect tactic - we need to theorise and improve on default tactics

What makes forums like this and FM-Britain so good are the theories and frameworks posted by the most intuitive FM gamers. These articles go some way to helping the less AI intelligent players amongst us to build tactics that will achieve sustainable success. It is this emphasis on 'building' which is key to the development of the game, the engine and our enjoyment of it.

Premise 2 - We all know what 'tweaking' is, but what turns a default tactic into something brilliant?

This is the most important part of what I want to achieve. It's time that this forum didn't search for perfect tactics, whinge about unplayable AI and rant at other people who have the good grace to upload and explain their best work. What we need is a global understanding amongst the community. We all need to take on a base knowledge and skill of watching the game in full on the 2D pitch, working out what is going wrong and where and how small changes can vastly improve the tactic. What has become abundantly clear in this version of the game is that one tactic will:-

i) not suit every team perfectly

ii) not provide a winning solution in every match game scenario.

The answer? The Art of Tweaking. If we can hone and develop these skills, there will be no more 'oh should the width slider be on 13 or 14...' or 'should be Mcd had forward runs mixed or rarely?...' The point of this discussion is to open up the AI as something that is manageable, observable and workable. It's a hopeful thought, but I believe with the right input to the discussion we can all go away from this having learned enough about tweaking to be able to have good success rates in this version of the game.

Premise 3 - The Future

The idea of a community like this contributing theories and game play observations is priceless. The problem lies in the fact that the vast majority of threads in our forums end after 2 posts, be it by moderator intervention on a newbie who wont follow forum rules or by lack of interest by other forum readers. I believe if we can raise the tactical awareness of the average poster then the forum will open itself up to more expansive tactical analysis. There are enough people out there who can already out do the AI, but I think there's still scope to improve as a community.

The Project Itself

I propose I start a game with a middle of the road Premiership team and select the 442 default tactic. I will then arrange a large amount of friendlies and upload the save game. No players are to be bought, training imposed,tactical variations made at this stage or team talks. The idea is that whoever wants to get onboard plays the first friendly with the tactic as it stands, then report back to the thread with his/her observations, including relevant screenshots where appropriate. As an example, you might notice that your RB's passing was way off acceptable and hence needed to be shortened to the lowest end of mixed to improve his pass completion rate (just an example!). The thread can then respond in kind - did other players spot the same problem? Would they have dealt with it the same way?

I hope over the course of the experiment that we can make a list as we go along (which I'll happily update) showing the key implementations a tactician should make from watching the AI, to translating this into an improvement in the tactic itself.

Next Steps

I knew as soon as I wrote that most threads end after a couple of posts that mine would risk succumbing to the same miserable fate but I really believe in this concept as a method of making us all (well maybe not Cleon,wwfan etc) better managers. The next steps are:-

i) What sort of interest will this project attract?

I'd like to get an idea of who is interested by this and willing to give some of their time for the good of the forum. I may be barking up the wrong tree and the idea might die a death, so I'd like to see who's onboard before we go any further.

ii) Assuming there is enough interest, what team should we be?

I thought the Premiership would be our best bet as a league, given its the division most of us know more about. I don't want to be a dictator about this, so I'm more than willing to consider other leagues. I actually think if we were to succeed in the Premiership, it would be fascinating to take the project abroad to other leagues and style of play. Or maybe to lower division? We would learn more and more about how our continental cousins are successful and it may well encourage people to try out new countries they wouldn't have previously considered. The possibilities are endless really, but to start with I'd like to get some ideas on who would be a reasonable testing team.

iii) What have I missed?

I'm no organisational whizz kid nor the best manager in here by a long way, so I may have missed something important, either regarding the logistics of this project or tactics itself. If this takes off, I want to make it perfectly clear that I simply started this thread. I want it to be a group contribution and I'm more than willing to accept other people's ideas about how best to run this thing. Similarly, if people want to take things further via web hosting etc, I'd more than willing to give this as much exposure as possible.

Summary

For those of you who have read this whole thing, you'll have realised how into this idea I am and I hope the majority of you agree. This has huge potential to change the way most of us look at tactics and instead of going to the gurus for the one-stop-shop solution, we can have a base ourselves from watching the AI to know where to change things round to improve.

Thanks to everyone who's read this and I look forward to hearing back from those who are interested. As a secondary point, any guru who would like to help the little minion I am get this off the ground is more than welcome to jump onboard! My contact details are in my profile

Cheers

Premise 1 - There is no such thing as a perfect tactic - we need to theorise and improve on default tactics

What makes forums like this and FM-Britain so good are the theories and frameworks posted by the most intuitive FM gamers. These articles go some way to helping the less AI intelligent players amongst us to build tactics that will achieve sustainable success. It is this emphasis on 'building' which is key to the development of the game, the engine and our enjoyment of it.

Premise 2 - We all know what 'tweaking' is, but what turns a default tactic into something brilliant?

This is the most important part of what I want to achieve. It's time that this forum didn't search for perfect tactics, whinge about unplayable AI and rant at other people who have the good grace to upload and explain their best work. What we need is a global understanding amongst the community. We all need to take on a base knowledge and skill of watching the game in full on the 2D pitch, working out what is going wrong and where and how small changes can vastly improve the tactic. What has become abundantly clear in this version of the game is that one tactic will:-

i) not suit every team perfectly

ii) not provide a winning solution in every match game scenario.

The answer? The Art of Tweaking. If we can hone and develop these skills, there will be no more 'oh should the width slider be on 13 or 14...' or 'should be Mcd had forward runs mixed or rarely?...' The point of this discussion is to open up the AI as something that is manageable, observable and workable. It's a hopeful thought, but I believe with the right input to the discussion we can all go away from this having learned enough about tweaking to be able to have good success rates in this version of the game.

Premise 3 - The Future

The idea of a community like this contributing theories and game play observations is priceless. The problem lies in the fact that the vast majority of threads in our forums end after 2 posts, be it by moderator intervention on a newbie who wont follow forum rules or by lack of interest by other forum readers. I believe if we can raise the tactical awareness of the average poster then the forum will open itself up to more expansive tactical analysis. There are enough people out there who can already out do the AI, but I think there's still scope to improve as a community.

The Project Itself

I propose I start a game with a middle of the road Premiership team and select the 442 default tactic. I will then arrange a large amount of friendlies and upload the save game. No players are to be bought, training imposed,tactical variations made at this stage or team talks. The idea is that whoever wants to get onboard plays the first friendly with the tactic as it stands, then report back to the thread with his/her observations, including relevant screenshots where appropriate. As an example, you might notice that your RB's passing was way off acceptable and hence needed to be shortened to the lowest end of mixed to improve his pass completion rate (just an example!). The thread can then respond in kind - did other players spot the same problem? Would they have dealt with it the same way?

I hope over the course of the experiment that we can make a list as we go along (which I'll happily update) showing the key implementations a tactician should make from watching the AI, to translating this into an improvement in the tactic itself.

Next Steps

I knew as soon as I wrote that most threads end after a couple of posts that mine would risk succumbing to the same miserable fate but I really believe in this concept as a method of making us all (well maybe not Cleon,wwfan etc) better managers. The next steps are:-

i) What sort of interest will this project attract?

I'd like to get an idea of who is interested by this and willing to give some of their time for the good of the forum. I may be barking up the wrong tree and the idea might die a death, so I'd like to see who's onboard before we go any further.

ii) Assuming there is enough interest, what team should we be?

I thought the Premiership would be our best bet as a league, given its the division most of us know more about. I don't want to be a dictator about this, so I'm more than willing to consider other leagues. I actually think if we were to succeed in the Premiership, it would be fascinating to take the project abroad to other leagues and style of play. Or maybe to lower division? We would learn more and more about how our continental cousins are successful and it may well encourage people to try out new countries they wouldn't have previously considered. The possibilities are endless really, but to start with I'd like to get some ideas on who would be a reasonable testing team.

iii) What have I missed?

I'm no organisational whizz kid nor the best manager in here by a long way, so I may have missed something important, either regarding the logistics of this project or tactics itself. If this takes off, I want to make it perfectly clear that I simply started this thread. I want it to be a group contribution and I'm more than willing to accept other people's ideas about how best to run this thing. Similarly, if people want to take things further via web hosting etc, I'd more than willing to give this as much exposure as possible.

Summary

For those of you who have read this whole thing, you'll have realised how into this idea I am and I hope the majority of you agree. This has huge potential to change the way most of us look at tactics and instead of going to the gurus for the one-stop-shop solution, we can have a base ourselves from watching the AI to know where to change things round to improve.

Thanks to everyone who's read this and I look forward to hearing back from those who are interested. As a secondary point, any guru who would like to help the little minion I am get this off the ground is more than welcome to jump onboard! My contact details are in my profile

Cheers

I'm all for this idea and hope it works. The problem you'll have though are people who will be willing to read indepth posts and take part. It's a shame really as these are the same people who post saying the game is crap and bugged.

It certainly gets my backing

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

I'm all for this idea and hope it works. The problem you'll have though are people who will be willing to read indepth posts and take part. It's a shame really as these are the same people who post saying the game is crap and bugged.

It certainly gets my backing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Cleon, I agree with your sentiments. I do however think that the average poster who is frustrated by the game will be willing to try and learn more to get the most out of it.

I appreciate you backing this and I hope you'll be able to contribute to the idea if it takes off

Sounds interesting and I'm willing to take-part.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GunnersFan:

Sounds interesting and I'm willing to take-part. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers mate! I had a feeling you might, given you selflessly put all the tactics in one thread for everyone! That was cool. I just hope people are still willing to learn more despite the tactics out there!

I'm going to keep a list of who's onboard so we can gage the idea of the project. So far,

saab693

Cleon

GunnersFan

Cleon,

I noticed you're considering doing your Play My Game project again with Man City. I don't want to pry but could it not work as part of this thread? Instead of people just using your tactic, they might actually learn how to go about creating a good one for themselves from the tips in this thread?

Just a thought

Iv been waiting for a thread like this for a while now as watching the AI in match mode really intrests me and i have done quite a few test's myself on tweaking in game to counter the AI.I'd love to take part in this but im usually one for just reading and taking the information i find as im not very confident with my English and spelling but i will be reading with intrest and may add some of my finding once this thread kick's off and i really hope it does as it's a great subject.Best of luck

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrewbanny:

Iv been waiting for a thread like this for a while now as watching the AI in match mode really intrests me and i have done quite a few test's myself on tweaking in game to counter the AI.I'd love to take part in this but im usually one for just reading and taking the information i find as im not very confident with my English and spelling but i will be reading with intrest and may add some of my finding once this thread kick's off and i really hope it does as it's a great subject.Best of luck </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the support mate! I wouldn't worry about your English, I didn't see one mistake in there! We wouldn't be much of a community if we only let the best English speakers in and given how badly some people spell in this forum you're more than welcome! I'll add you to the list and if you find you're not enjoying it then you can always just read! But I hope you get involved

Project Members

saab693

Cleon

Gunnersfan

Andrewbanny

It's a good start! I'd like to get as many people as possible

Sounds like a great idea Saab. I for one am interested.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ObaMartins09:

Sounds like a great idea Saab. I for one am interested.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cheers mate! I've spotted your name on the forums actually and you post intelligent comments which is exactly what we need! Another one for the list!

Project Members

saab693

Cleon

Gunnersfan

Andrewbanny

ObaMartins09

Just a quick comment on where there is going, so you don't think I'm just adding names to a list to please my ego! I'd like a list of 20-30 people who are willing to take part in this. This may sound ambitious but this forum is huge. The important thing is that all the input we get is constructive and appropriate and we will need our house moderator to keep an eye on the spirit of the thread. This could be really positive and useful if we keep things on the straight and narrow.

Thanks for everyone's interest so far. I'll take a count on numbers tonight and we'll see how close we are to getting the project started.

Things are looking good

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saab693:

Cleon,

I noticed you're considering doing your Play My Game project again with Man City. I don't want to pry but could it not work as part of this thread? Instead of people just using your tactic, they might actually learn how to go about creating a good one for themselves from the tips in this thread?

Just a thought </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've done plenty of threads giving advice on tactics and how to create them. The Play My Game project is the next step, were I've set up a scenario and put everything into place. Then its down to the player to carry on this and make his own decisions.

I was doing a tweaking thread myself, but noone participated so I scrapped them plans as I needed people to look at a particular game I had done, and understand that. Before I could continue about tweaking, as I wanted people to watch the AI and spot problems for themselves to begin with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saab693:

Cleon,

I noticed you're considering doing your Play My Game project again with Man City. I don't want to pry but could it not work as part of this thread? Instead of people just using your tactic, they might actually learn how to go about creating a good one for themselves from the tips in this thread?

Just a thought </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've done plenty of threads giving advice on tactics and how to create them. The Play My Game project is the next step, were I've set up a scenario and put everything into place. Then its down to the player to carry on this and make his own decisions.

I was doing a tweaking thread myself, but noone participated so I scrapped them plans as I needed people to look at a particular game I had done, and understand that. Before I could continue about tweaking, as I wanted people to watch the AI and spot problems for themselves to begin with. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's fine Cleon, just thought I'd throw it out there. Well, this thread needs to succeed where others have failed then! I'd be very surprised if there weren't enough interested people to carry this forward

The play my game project was a great idea a i was excited about it..once you announced you were gonna do this it took you a while to get it started, my belief is that you were waiting for the patch to arrive.Once it got started IMO is that once people noticed you had left you tactic in the save game file the thread then became more about people wanting to use your tactic which was a big shame on the initial thought behind the thread.So i suggest on this thread no tactic's are to be made so people cant just come in requesting a tactic, for me it should be based on reading the match engine and in game tweaks according to that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrewbanny:

The play my game project was a great idea a i was excited about it..once you announced you were gonna do this it took you a while to get it started, my belief is that you were waiting for the patch to arrive.Once it got started IMO is that once people noticed you had left you tactic in the save game file the thread then became more about people wanting to use your tactic which was a big shame on the initial thought behind the thread.So i suggest on this thread no tactic's are to be made so people cant just come in requesting a tactic, for me it should be based on reading the match engine and in game tweaks according to that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great post mate, exactly the right attitude! I was hoping that different people would express how they want this project to be run and you've done exactly that, giving perfectly good reasons.

Rule #1 - No tactic will be created from the discoveries made here

As you say, the point of this thread is to learn, not to be spoon fed something that may or may not work. We're bound to lose some people's interest because we're asking for a little effort from our members, but that should help keep the posting relevant and intelligent.

Thanks mate!

Unless you describe the tactic though the thread will fail, so posting about the tactic you are using is a must. How else is the person going to know what was tweaked and why, if you don't tell people the original tactical instructions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrewbanny:

The play my game project was a great idea a i was excited about it..once you announced you were gonna do this it took you a while to get it started, my belief is that you were waiting for the patch to arrive.Once it got started IMO is that once people noticed you had left you tactic in the save game file the thread then became more about people wanting to use your tactic which was a big shame on the initial thought behind the thread.So i suggest on this thread no tactic's are to be made so people cant just come in , for me it should be based on reading the match engine and in game tweaks according to that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with that. By doing this we should generate some proper discussion instead of everyone just requesting tactics.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cleon:

Unless you describe the tactic though the thread will fail, so posting about the tactic you are using is a must. How else is the person going to know what was tweaked and why, if you don't tell people the original tactical instructions. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand Cleon and I believe that by keeping a list of alterations made, the reason they were made and the effect they had will help people re-create the tactic we are making if they want to. Obviously a tactic will come into being as a result of this. i just want people to understand it and be able to re-create it rather than just clicking 'Download.'

This is just the kind of thread i'm after!

I'm not the best at creating tactics and i'm not the worst but i would love to be able to understand the match engine better and learn other peoples way of thinking.

I have found that i can be a little narrow minded when creating tactics, and just blame the game when they dont work even with world class teams. I would love to be able understand whats going wrong and WHY its going wrong.

Count me in if you deem me worthy!

saab693 - I am one of these players that do complain that the game is crap. It's because i can't seem to get the best out of my players when it comes to the match engine, so i get really frustrated. if this game has turned into the kind of game that needs tweaking, then i am truly lost. I don't even know how, what and when to tweak. If i knew where to start when it comes to tweaking then i think i would enjoy the game a lot more. But i have to admit i am a bit lazy sometimes, in terms putting more effort in to tactics. Basically, if someone called tell me where to start from, I think i would be a lot happier. Sorry for the long post.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goober:

This is just the kind of thread i'm after!

I'm not the best at creating tactics and i'm not the worst but i would love to be able to understand the match engine better and learn other peoples way of thinking.

I have found that i can be a little narrow minded when creating tactics, and just blame the game when they dont work even with world class teams. I would love to be able understand whats going wrong and WHY its going wrong.

Count me in if you deem me worthy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Goober! I think you're typical of most managers out there! We all have some grasp of what we want to achieve etc but struggle to put into practice as well as the likes of Cleon and others. You're definitely welcome onboard, I'll update the list in a minute!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ron.e:

saab693 - I am one of these players that do complain that the game is crap. It's because i can't seem to get the best out of my players when it comes to the match engine, so i get really frustrated. if this game has turned into the kind of game that needs tweaking, then i am truly lost. I don't even know how, what and when to tweak. If i knew where to start when it comes to tweaking then i think i would enjoy the game a lot more. But i have to admit i am a bit lazy sometimes, in terms putting more effort in to tactics. Basically, if someone called tell me where to start from, I think i would be a lot happier. Sorry for the long post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi ron.e. Again, your position isn't uncommon in FM. It's easy to get frustrated when things don't go your way and without the requisite knowledge you need to tweak then the game becomes daunting and depressing. I'll add you on to the list because I'm sure you can get a lot out of this. It will just be a question of slowly learning what to do and when from other forum members and you will soon find yourself getting better and better as a manager.

Welcome aboard!

I was thinking Blackburn would be a good team to start with, any ideas?

Here's an update of the group at the moment

Project Members

saab693

Cleon

Gunnersfan

Andrewbanny

ObaMartins09

Goober

ron.e

So 7 of us interested so far. Not bad given the thread only opened today. Like I mentioned above, I'd like to get between 20-30 people involved so we can get really get the discussion going and get inside the AI.

In the meantime, if anyone has any queries/suggestions regarding how this thing will run, then don't hesitate to post. Similarly, we will need to pick a suitable testing team so I'm open to ideas

Cheers

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GunnersFan:

I was thinking Blackburn would be a good team to start with, any ideas? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a bad shout! Decent team, but not so good that we could put down any success to incredibly talent squad players. I'm happy to stick with Blackburn but if anyone else has ideas, then we'll go on the general consensus of the thread

Cheers GunnersFan

My idea would be to start with a championship team or lower simply because you will be able to see why other player's are outplaying other player's in the match engine..I.E why is there winger going past my full back 80% of the time it would prob be because the winger has 18 in dribling and the full back has only 13 in tackling, where as if it were a prem team there would'nt be much difference in attributes for us to make a clear distinction as to why certain things are happpening.

Attributes are the most important item used in the match engine to determine the results and the closer these attributes are the harder it will be for us to see why things are happening if that makes sense.

As for a tactic my feeling would be to just use a default tactic, for saab to post a screenshot of the scout report, discuss what needs do pre-match then let saab alter the default tactic to what we discuss and let him play the match.When he upload's the match pkm for us to discuss we should talk about the match in segments i.e first 20 mins, 20-mins to half time etc..

Just some thought's please feel free to disagree or add your own idea's

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrewbanny:

My idea would be to start with a championship team or lower simply because you will be able to see why other player's are outplaying other player's in the match engine..I.E why is there winger going past my full back 80% of the time it would prob be because the winger has 18 in dribling and the full back has only 13 in tackling, where as if it were a prem team there would'nt be much difference in attributes for us to make a clear distinction as to why certain things are happpening.

Attributes are the most important item used in the match engine to determine the results and the closer these attributes are the harder it will be for us to see why things are happening if that makes sense.

As for a tactic my feeling would be to just use a default tactic, for saab to post a screenshot of the scout report, discuss what needs do pre-match then let saab alter the default tactic to what we discuss and let him play the match.When he upload's the match pkm for us to discuss we should talk about the match in segments i.e first 20 mins, 20-mins to half time etc..

Just some thought's please feel free to disagree or add your own idea's </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like your idea of being able to spot things easier in the lower leagues. My only preference for a Premiership team was that we'd all be more familiar with the team. On top of this, there would be none of the other variables which LLM difficult. E.g. poor finances, low player determination, team not gelled etc

I think your system of running things is much better than my idea of us playing the game separately. Great point! You've created a perfect plan for us there and I'm really excited about getting started soon. Maybe at each stage you've suggested (i.e. pre-game, first 20 mins, HT etc) we could all contribute a post each saying what we think is being shown and what we'd change? I could then make a summary of the options, test them all out and see what proves the most successful?

I think this is coming together rather nicely

I take your point about us all being more familiar with prem teams, and if it gonna be a prem team then blackburn was a good shout or another mid table team for the reason that we will have teams playing attacking against us i.e arsenal, man u, chelsea and we will be able to discuss defensive aspects of the match engine and we will also have lower teams i.e derby, sunderland playing a defensive style so we will be able discuss the attacking side of the match engine e.g how to pick weaknesses out in the opposition defence.So if it is gonna be a prem team then a mid table team would be a good choice.

I think theres a few to choose from, Villa, Scumy Everton (sorry, Liverpool fan), Man City.

My personnel choice would be Aston Villa, good first team, pushing for europe, good youth.

However Blackburn would be good choice!

To be honest i'm easy

I'm interested too. This should be cool.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goober:

I think theres a few to choose from, Villa, Scumy Everton (sorry, Liverpool fan), Man City.

My personnel choice would be Aston Villa, good first team, pushing for europe, good youth.

However Blackburn would be good choice!

To be honest i'm easy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the input Goober. We now have

Blackburn

Aston Villa

Everton

LLM side

as our potential options. Keep the ideas coming then we can make a decision as we get nearer to starting. Cheers mate!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparky_07:

I'm interested too. This should be cool. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great stuff, the more the merrier! I'll update the list

Project Members

saab693

Cleon

Gunnersfan

Andrewbanny

ObaMartins09

Goober

ron.e

Sparky_07

It's a good start! We're nearly half way there to the figure I'd like. If anyone knows people wh o would be interested and can contribute or can get word out to the community that would be ideal. I think this could be great!

I think Wednesday or Thursday might be a realistic start date, or even the weekend possibly to get as many people onboard as possible.

Thanks again for everyone's interest and contributions

Not sure why the smiley popped up in the middle of who!

I think you have more han enough people TBH

Also some people may not be available to do what you would like

What are you actualy expectng these people to do?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by i had 2 du this:

I think you have more han enough people TBH

Also some people may not be available to do what you would like

What are you actualy expectng these people to do? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi mate,

First of all I've read several of your posts both on here and at FM-B and I appreciate the effort you've gone into to explain your approach and to help others. I would love your help on this if you'd be willing? The reason I've been trying to get more people onboard is so we can get as many viewpoints as possible on what the AI is doing.

The way things will work has been outlined by Andrewbanny a few posts above. The idea is that we will consult as a group at various stages of the match. Firstly, I will post up a match report and will each suggest what they would do with the information available. I will then make a list of the alternatives available and test each one out in turn. The group will then take the uploaded PKM and look at it at 20 mins, 40 mins etc and add whatever problems/good aspects have occurred as a result of our tactical changes.

It undoubtedly sounds more complex than it is. Quite simply we will be assessing an uploaded PKM and making tactical tweaks as a group.

I hope that clears everything up and I look forward to your contributions if you are interested.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Millsinho:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Goober:

This is just the kind of thread i'm after!

I'm not the best at creating tactics and i'm not the worst but i would love to be able to understand the match engine better and learn other peoples way of thinking.

I have found that i can be a little narrow minded when creating tactics, and just blame the game when they dont work even with world class teams. I would love to be able understand whats going wrong and WHY its going wrong.

Count me in if you deem me worthy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This sums me up perfectly too, so count me in!

I think Villa, Everton or Blackburn would all be ideal team choices, but not too sure about LLM (not as a startin point at least).

Can I suggest that the feedback about tactical observations from matches is recorded in a structured format, to make for easy reading once more and more games are played? I was thinking something along the lines of:

Opposition: Newcastle (Away)

Match Odds: 5-3

Weather: Rain

Problem 1: Fullbacks caught out of position too frequently

Solution 1: Change forward runs from 'often' to 'mixed'

Problem 2: MC wasting too many opportunities from taking long shots

Solution 2: Reduce long shots to 'rarely'

and so on for each game...

Just a suggestion, and I'm not saying this is the best way to do it, but I think it would be helpful be consistent one way or another. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Welcome onboard Milsinho! You're very welcome!

Thanks for the input on the teams. I share your concerns about an LLM side as a starting point and I agree that the three Premiership teams on the shortlist are all ideal.

Excellent idea regarding recording our observations. Making it clear and easy to understand will increase the success of the thread and help people in the long run

Project Members

saab693

Cleon

Gunnersfan

Andrewbanny

ObaMartins09

Goober

ron.e

Sparky_07

Milsinho

As regards I had 2 du this' comments, what are people's thoughts on the number of project members? Do you want a smaller pool than I suggested or would you like to see more people involved? I'm more than happy to decide this as a group

Cheers

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As regards I had 2 du this' comments, what are people's thoughts on the number of project members? Do you want a smaller pool than I suggested or would you like to see more people involved? I'm more than happy to decide this as a group </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As long as people participate and we have quality feedback it dosen't really matter IMHO.

And with Cleon onboard its all good!!!

I'm not ass kissing by the way

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">As regards I had 2 du this' comments, what are people's thoughts on the number of project members? Do you want a smaller pool than I suggested or would you like to see more people involved? I'm more than happy to decide this as a group </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think we've quite a healthy number of people now to continue to the next stage. Anyway other people can join in along the way if they feel like doing so. But that's only my suggestion...

Ok then guys, the general consensus seems to be to get going on this, which is great news. We're all really keen and I have high hopes! Like you say, if we start making interesting points, people will start reading and join in as we go along.

What are thoughts on getting started tonight? Are people around? The beauty of this is that I can just upload PKMs and people can feedback in their own time, but I think it'd be cool to have most of us online when we start. What do you think?

And finally, the team decision! As a Man Utd Fan, the prospect of making Liverpool's rivals really good sounds like fun to me! Does this suit everyone? I'm in all night so should be checking the thread regularly

Cheers

I'll be around tonight if you want to start it.

yes i will be around also

Great! I'll get the game loaded, arrange a mix of friendlies at home then post up the first scout report. Should we try and hone an attacking tactic first? If so, I'll choose slightly weaker opponents for the first couple of games

Cheers

* It Begins........*

Ok, I have started a new game in England with a large database. As mentioned above, we will be managing Everton. I shall choose the default 442 diamond if this suits everyone? I believe it's naturally easier to implement than a flat 442 so makes sense as a starting point. Of course, if people disagree, we're just a click away from changing it!

Now in terms of picking a starting 11, I think it would be in the spirit of the tactic to simply ask the assistant to pick. This thread isn't really about discussing players, except for their failings within the tactic! I don't see the point in spending ages deliberating who should start. So, here's the starting XI according to our assistant:-

Starting Line-up

I think it's fair to say that he's picked a decent team from the squad available.

I've arranged our first game at home to Sunderland, which should give us a good opportunity to tweak an attacking tactic.

Scout Report

Not surprisingly it's fairly limited as it's their first game of the season. Even so, it's a good chance for us to interpret the information available and see how we'd each go about countering any threats or problems.

I look forward to your ideas

Great idea there saab693. I'm not too good at this game and would love to know how to outwit the AI. I would like to be involved in some small way to try and understand this game engine once and for all.

Thanks and good luck with this thread.

Patrick

No problem at all mate, the whole point of this is to increase everyone's knowledge and confidence about the game. I'll add you to the list and feel free to comment on the scout report I've posted above. Don't worry about getting anything wrong, the whole point is we learn as we go and pick the best option available as a group.

Project Members

saab693

Cleon

Gunnersfan

Andrewbanny

ObaMartins09

Goober

ron.e

Sparky_07

Milsinho

Patrick27

The scout report does'nt really tell us much, i would make sure i would play my best defender who has the highest heading,strength etc and make sure he on the correct side of the pitch to mark Prica.It would also be useful to know the managers preferred style of play through his stats page . i,e his style of play, his marking style and his closing down style.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andrewbanny:

The scout report does'nt really tell us much, i would make sure i would play my best defender who has the highest heading,strength etc and make sure he on the correct side of the pitch to mark Prica.It would also be useful to know the managers preferred style of play through his stats page . i,e his style of play, his marking style and his closing down style. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've covered it all there's not much else we can get out of the scout report card.

Thanks for adding me. I would agree with Andrewbanny. Best marker to make Prica,who'll they will use as a targetman, Yobo possibly?