PPMs - How they could be implemented in regens, because as it stands, they cease to exist post 2020. An SI comment would be much loved :D

I intially commented on this here. But thought that due to the fact PPMs were a nice feature and they were quite neglected, i felt it warranted its own thread in which people could discuss how they feel they could/should be included.

As it stands in FM08:

- PPMS are only transferable through tutoring.

The problems with this are several;

1/ Tutoring carries risks, players become unhappy etc, so it's not something you want to be forced to do.

2/ Tutoring, if done properly, is a quite time consuming practice, especially as 8/10 times the youth player in question turns out to be a bit toss.

3/ The AI makes minimal use of tutoring, making any efforts on your behalf almost useless.

- The net effect of all this, is that by around 2025 there are no players that have PPMs (or an insignificatn number of 35 year olds anyway).

Why is this a problem:

No doubt some people don't really care about PPMs. Personally i think they are a nice idea, and work very well, hence seeing them disappear is a bit of a let down.

I think they provide more depth to human-player interaction and provide much more of a man management challenge when trying to coach them. They also give the players a certain degree of character, which due to the nature of regens (samey, random etc) i feel is quite vital to keep the human bothered about his regen players.

What should SI do then?

I would like to see PPMs generated by a combination of human interaction and the players individual stats, let me explain.

I feel that with certain combinations of stats and tactics, a human (or AI) manager should be able to promote the appearance of PPMs within a player. I feel this would add a great deal to youth development as you would be able (to some extent) to be leave your imprint on a player, much like wenger no doubt does with the arsenal players. As it stands, the human-youth player interaction is minimal and all young players tend to turn out much the same, regardless of what club they are at.

My thinking here is that what players learn during their formative years (say 16-21) is quite often apparent throughout their career. I don't want to be able to change the way frank lampard plays, but i feel that U18 players should be moldable (if that's even a word...) and that i should be able to encourage them to play in a certain way.

Examples:

I appreciate a ramble on and may have not expressed myself clearly so i will lay out several examples of how i feel PPMs could be generated (ppm in italic and description follows):

1/ Takes long shots. I'll start with something simple - if a player has a high long shots stat, and is played in a tactic that encourages him to take shots frequently then he should develop this PPM.

2/ Tries Through Balls Often. Very similar to the above - high passing, high creativity, and played with appropriate tactics, the player should have a chance to develop this PPM.

3/ Likes to lob GK. This is where i feel things should get a little more complex. IRL the best finishers in the world (henry, ruud etc) don't tend to chip that much. I feel PPMs like this should be reserved for the rooneys of the world. OK finishers, high flair, high creativity and played with a large amount of creative freedom.

4/ Places Shots. The opposite of the above - finishing 20, composure 18+ - the model finisher.

5/ Argues with Officials & winds up OPs. SShould appear in players with low professionalism.

6/ Hugs line & assorted wide player PPMs. The appearance of PPMs such as these should be determined by the width of the players formation - a player who plays in a narrow formation should not tend to hug the line.

7/ Tries Tricks & beat man repeatedly. High flair and high dribbling stat played with high creative freedom.

8/ Tries to play way out of trouble. Possible relating to high composure (keeping his head under pressure) with relatively low decisions (why not just clear it?).

9/ Dives into tackles/doesn't. A player that dives into tackles should require high aggression. Similarly a not so aggressive player should avoid doing this. Tackling ability and decisions should determine how effective the tackle is, i don't feel they should influence the PPM.

10/ Plays short simple passes. Determined primarily by tactics - if a player spends his first 5 years of football playing like arsenal, he should shy away from playing long ball later in his career.

That's all i'm going to give as examples - i don't claim all of those to be correct, nor do i claim to have all the answers (dictates tempo??), the purpose of this thread is to discuss those aspects.

Supressing PPMs & their relative frequencies.

If we have a mechanism to promote PPMs, it seems only fair that we should be able to try and batter the bad habits out of players and that there should be factors that control how often PPMs appear, as we don't want every player in your team to have the same PPMs.

Removing them - Dropping creative freedom to 0 should stop players trying what they wany - the success of this should be determined by player personality - e.g. a temperamental player may be more inclined to do what he wants.

Similarly, PPMs such as "argues with officials" could perhaps be attached to a media section - for example "manager Ched believes drogba should stop sulking when free kicks are given against him" etc - with the results being treated similar to form comments in the current FM.

Chances of a player gaining a PPM

Despite how my above examples sound, i don't want every player to end up with PPMs. They are currently a nice feature because of their rarity, and i think a subtle touch is needed in adding this feature.

For example - high team work should be a vital stat for incorporating tactics based PPMs. Ditto high versatility.

How i would hope SI develop this:

I know it is too late to incorporate this into FM09. I also appreciate this may require a quite large amount of work (which may be better spent in other areas i've previsouly commented on - transfers!) so i would happily accept some sort of random PPM generation for FM09 and FM10.

I do feel that this sort of player development is what SI should be aiming for, and would hope to see something along these lines for FM11 onwards.

This may just be highlighting my ignorance regarding the games industry - i don't claim to know what is possible, just what i'd like to see.

Thanks for reading this, it took a fair while to write so please comment as i'll be rightly miffed if it drops off the boards to be replaces by a throng of "superkeeper" threads lol.

Cheers,

Ched

wont give a long post, i just generally agree. nice one. i also think players from certain country develops certain ppms. like brazilians would develop skil based ppms, englsh players would play the game a lot quicker(not an existing ppms) italians also play more defensivley(not currently a ppm.)

As you know this is one of the things I dislike about my long term games so to another excellent thread.

My first thought was that position specific PPM's should be randomly assigned to certain players. So a young striker could end up being generated with the 'Places Shots' PPM amongst others. This player can then learn other PPM's through tutoring as normal meaning that the pool of PPM's should not dry up as players are being generated with PPM's and when they're old enough teaching these to other players.

Having said that I really like Ched's idea of having more control over the development of youngsters, and PPM's is an excellent way to achieve this.

Once again Ched provides an excellent, well thought out post with lots of suggestions and good ideas.

I'd like to see young players pick up PPMs from more experienced players in their squad without the need for tutoring. This could be based on a player's favoured personnel among other things.

Originally posted by cbarnet12:

I'd like to see young players pick up PPMs from more experienced players in their squad without the need for tutoring. This could be based on a player's favoured personnel among other things.

Definately

If a youth player has a senior striker as a favoured personnel, why wouldn't he try to mimic him?

I didn't read the whole post, but surely regens would have a certain number of perhaps undeveloped PPMs anyway. If they come through at 16, they will have been playing football for many years before that anyway, surely they have preferred moves?

Definately something that needs chaging IMO.

great post mate, well thought out and explained

Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

wont give a long post, i just generally agree. nice one. i also think players from certain country develops certain ppms. like brazilians would develop skil based ppms, englsh players would play the game a lot quicker(not an existing ppms) italians also play more defensivley(not currently a ppm.)

Oh get over the stereotypes!!!

Good post, Ched. This has been a problem in other games with nifty "training" features: if the AI isn't taking advantage of them, then they become an imbalance in favour of the human player.

In lieu of your detailed example, maybe we could see some other items done?

1. AI takes advantage of tutoring, etc, to impart PPMs to their youth players.

2. PPMs moved into training module? E.g., much like learning a new position, we could set our coaches to train players to try specific PPMs - but of course, it would "consume" CA growth which might have been applied to attribute increases if we hadn't done so.

3. Coaches remember PPMs from their playing career? - by this, I mean, if I wind up signing as a coach a former player .. maybe that coach should still "know" his PPMs and natural position(s), and would have a chance of imparting his PPMs to players of his original position. This might be particularly influential for managers and assistant managers - providing a halfway decent reason for high-reputation former players to get those jobs!

Originally posted by Ascanius:

I didn't read the whole post, but surely regens would have a certain number of perhaps undeveloped PPMs anyway. If they come through at 16, they will have been playing football for many years before that anyway, surely they have preferred moves?

Definately something that needs chaging IMO.

Agreed. Just because you are obeying a manager's instructions to play a short pass, doesn't mean you'd prefer to hit it long. I personally like to play short passes, but if I was playing for Bolton, this suddenly wouldn't disappear. Similarly with anything tactic based you have brought up. It's a good idea, and I totally agree it need a bit of tweaking, but I think your method is, if not flawed, a tad unrealistic.

Originally posted by H.J:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ascanius:

I didn't read the whole post, but surely regens would have a certain number of perhaps undeveloped PPMs anyway. If they come through at 16, they will have been playing football for many years before that anyway, surely they have preferred moves?

Definately something that needs chaging IMO.

Agreed. Just because you are obeying a manager's instructions to play a short pass, doesn't mean you'd prefer to hit it long. I personally like to play short passes, but if I was playing for Bolton, this suddenly wouldn't disappear. Similarly with anything tactic based you have brought up. It's a good idea, and I totally agree it need a bit of tweaking, but I think your method is, if not flawed, a tad unrealistic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree with this. Regens IMO should spawn with random PPMs some of the time (yes, they should still be a rarity). They should be vaguely linked to position as well, as 'places shots' would be something you'd have so little opportunity to see in a centre-back that you couldn't know it was a preferred move.

All good points

As with many things in FM, PPMs are a recent feature and thus tends to be under-developed until one or two versions in. Let's hope that for FM09 the SI team take a closer look and make them more realistic and effective in the long-term.

Regens do spawn with random PPMs at the moment, I just got a forward with places shots.

I think all I would like to see with regard to players gaining new PPM's would be when I tell the young player that I want him to work with the first teamer, one or both would say "Yeah, great idea" or "No, I don't think it would work" and then I would tell them to either try it anyways or forget the idea. I don't like how at the moment I have no way of knowing if they will work together well until it is to late. Having the AI use the tutoring more often would be nice as well.

post.

Regens should spawn more PPMs imo.

Regens are all too similar to each other for me to have some kind of "feelings" or attachment to them.

I always try to buy Lukas Podolski in FM, cos I like the way he plays.

i like the idea except the only problem with having certain stats dictate whether or not you have a chance of getting a ppm is that lower league managers will not be able to get their players to get ppm's. Maybe the stats could scale according to their reputation and the leagues reputation or something along those lines

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

and it shouldn't really matter if a player has 20 or 10 for passing either. i'm sure there are plenty League 2 players who have certain trademark abilities similar to gerrard or fabregas, but obviously not as world class.

Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things.

I agree with you there. In my case I always setthe full backs to do forward runs often and also to run with ball often. After some time with that tactic the player should have adopted that style of play as his own and PPM's should be gets forward whenever possible and run with ball down right.

Apparently, Wayne Rooney tutors youngsters in this game telling them to argue with officials.

Which is my only pet peeve of these moves since there is absolutely no way Rooney would tell a youngster to go and tell Rob Styles to eff off in training.

I'm designing a game which moves along tendencies - for example, Roy Keane is more likely to tackle, while Paolo Maldini is more likely to "shadow" the attacker and run them off the ball. Evra is more likely to get forward all the time while Silvestre is more likely to stay back. And in both cases, a lot of defenders fall in between these extremes.

I think eventually this makes more sense, because then players could adapt themselves to a team which then makes things interesting if they move. For example, how would Fabregas, whose tendencies would be to pass short with killer balls often, hold up the ball and shadow attackers, adapt to Manchester United if he moves, where his role is to pass longer, play deeper and less tempo dictation? Could he adapt at all?

Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still....

Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".

I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts"

Originally posted by MSCCG:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".

I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will follow you with this:

Also when a person has repeated an action time after time it will be automaticated into his mind and he is more and more likely to repeat the action without having to be told to do it.

Originally posted by MSCCG:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".

I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, wouldn't Milan Baros have given up dribbling to nowhere years ago? I still believe instincts are the most influential aspect of style of play. Rooney doesn't go for the lobs cause he's been trianed to or tutored in doing so. Obi Mikel doesn't dive into tackles cause the manager tells him to. It's just the way that people play, and can't all be boiled down to formulae or numbers.

Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".

I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, wouldn't Milan Baros have given up dribbling to nowhere years ago? I still believe instincts are the most influential aspect of style of play. Rooney doesn't go for the lobs cause he's been trianed to or tutored in doing so. Obi Mikel doesn't dive into tackles cause the manager tells him to. It's just the way that people play, and can't all be boiled down to formulae or numbers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Law of effect is basic psychology mate, it applies to all humans in all behaviour. I know next to nothing about Milan Baros but I know that hes not a Ronaldo style dribbler, and Ronaldo dribbles because they work out. He shoots more now because he happened to get it right once and started doing it more often. Same with Fabregas. Rooney lobs often because they work for him, if they didn't work he wouldn't try them. Same thing, Rooney is dribbling less now because they don't work so well, and he drops deeper now because they work for him too. Its nice to think about an innate biological sense of instinct for football but for us humans we only have instinct for the most basic of things because of our relatively small hypothalamus. Sorry for all that technical stuff I'm trying to study at the same time.

Originally posted by MSCCG:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MSCCG:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Disagree with the disagreement. According to the law of effect, when a response is followed by a favourable consequence, the response will be likely to occur again.

According to your point of view, a player cannot be tutored PPMs either because "instincts are instincts".

I extended this line of thought to "PPMs can also disappear when it is not used/too many unsuccessfull attempts" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In that case, wouldn't Milan Baros have given up dribbling to nowhere years ago? I still believe instincts are the most influential aspect of style of play. Rooney doesn't go for the lobs cause he's been trianed to or tutored in doing so. Obi Mikel doesn't dive into tackles cause the manager tells him to. It's just the way that people play, and can't all be boiled down to formulae or numbers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Law of effect is basic psychology mate, it applies to all humans in all behaviour. I know next to nothing about Milan Baros but I know that hes not a Ronaldo style dribbler, and Ronaldo dribbles because they work out. He shoots more now because he happened to get it right once and started doing it more often. Same with Fabregas. Rooney lobs often because they work for him, if they didn't work he wouldn't try them. Same thing, Rooney is dribbling less now because they don't work so well, and he drops deeper now because they work for him too. Its nice to think about an innate biological sense of instinct for football but for us humans we only have instinct for the most basic of things because of our relatively small hypothalamus. Sorry for all that technical stuff I'm trying to study at the same time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point about Baros is that he will dribble past 5 men and end up nowhere. Since it's not been much to good to him for most of the last five years, your argument would suggest that he would start doing it less. He hasn't. I just figure that people will do different things with the ball at their feet or head or whatever. Maybe a lot of it is learned, but I would say in that case it would usually be learned at a far younger age than players start off at on the game.

Once again Ched provides an excellent, well thought out post with lots of suggestions and good ideas.

WHS

Originally posted by pelicanstuff:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

i suggested ages ago that PPMs should appear in a players profile the more matches he plays doing certain things. for example, "plays short, simple passes" should appear when a youngish player has been told to do so in matches and his passing attribute is developing well. this would work like when you are retraining a CM to an AMC/DMC and you play him there in games.

Disagree. To my mind, a player will always have instinctive moves. For instance, I've never been tutored, but I run with ball down right and try killer balls often.

Of course, they never work, as I probably have about 5 for passing, but still.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you learn things as you play more regular football, at any age. i have no idea how i developed into the player i am (or was ), apart from copying what i saw in matches on tv when i was at school. eventually, i matched a certain style of play with my natural pace, first touch, finishing etc. i did my metartarsal years ago, and i lost the ability to shoot from range for a long time, but my dribbling and left foot use improved greatly.

i said it in an older topic about PPMs, go back to 1996 and tell Ryan Giggs that he would become a less offensive central midfielder in 10 years time. he would laugh at you.

if you go back to previous versions of CM/FM, Thierry Henry was an AM/FL, AM/FRLC, ST, FC etc. players will always develop new skills and become accustomed to new positions which utilize their new found abilities.

young players developing trademark moves depends on how eager & quick to learn they are, and how easy they adapt. there are natural footballers who have practiced certain abilities from youth and good learners who are willing to improve themselves to the same level as the natural footballer.

to suggest that you are too old at 22-28 to learn anything on the pitch is the way FM works, not the way of the world.

1) Youngsters need to arrive with PPMs, in a way which Ched has covered

2) External influences - ie tutoring from older players, but also coaches should have preferences which can rub off on the right player

3) Managerial en/discouragement - You should simply be able to take a player aside in training and say "Stop ******* doing that" or "Try and drift wider more often" for example.

Coaches with preferences should affect the player all through his career, not just when he's u21. I know Steve Coppell's done a lot of work with Glen Little to change his style of play (only for Little to be permantly injured, the irony )

Originally posted by Ackter:

1) Youngsters need to arrive with PPMs, in a way which Ched has covered

2) External influences - ie tutoring from older players, but also coaches should have preferences which can rub off on the right player

3) Managerial en/discouragement - You should simply be able to take a player aside in training and say "Stop ******* doing that" or "Try and drift wider more often" for example.

All good ideas! particularly coaches preferences.

mourinho/arsene types could result in their players aquiring the ppm argue with the ref!

I agree with Ched that it is a major issue, but i disagree with his solution.

e.g only rooney type players can chip/clinical finishers place shots.

I think half the fun of ppm's is the introduction of a bit more randomness -cheds ideas are too prescriptive.

in the future with regens if ppms are randomnly generated it shout be linked to the players attributes however. e.g tries long shots should require long shots above 10 etc

Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

in the future with regens if ppms are randomnly generated it shout be linked to the players attributes however. e.g tries long shots should require long shots above 10 etc

i agree. but as i mentioned above, a league 2 player won't be as good as a premier league/ international player, but that shouldn't stop him from having a good long shot and accompanying PPM if he is the best player in that division.

as for the coaches passing on attributes, this is a good idea. don't know if anyone has noticed, but when a youth coach has good technical training for example, new youth players will have decent and potentially great stats for technical attributes. you would most likely get better midfielders & finishers than good defenders, which is why i try to employ youth coaches similar to the way i employ first team coaches (with good stats for attacking, defending, technique etc).

if a youth coach has 20 for working with youngsters, he will appear on their favoured personel early on, so doing this with randomly generated, but appropreate PPMs would be the obvious way to go, considering that PPMs are extinct within 10-15 seasons.

i dispute that tutoring carries high risk.

yes you're going to get loads of rubbish youth players, and players will get unhappy but if you pick and chose the link then it's fine.

i wouldn't say it's time consuming anyway because its not like you have any input once you've linked the two players.

but i do agree that players should have a personality before they get promoted from the youth ranks and that includes PPM's.

Originally posted by Ackter:

1) Youngsters need to arrive with PPMs, in a way which Ched has covered

2) External influences - ie tutoring from older players, but also coaches should have preferences which can rub off on the right player

3) Managerial en/discouragement - You should simply be able to take a player aside in training and say "Stop ******* doing that" or "Try and drift wider more often" for example.

i would like the 3rd option although how to implement it would be dificult.

would it be context sensitive so that you only get the options that apply to that player? then it would have to be coded in that 'Player A drifts wide often'.

if it just gave you all the options in one long list then you would have overkill of information where alot of them just aren't ncessary.

Good idea and well put

This might go together well with an effort to gain more in-game personality as a human manager. There has recently been a thread about being able to give some more details about oneself before game start, such as past clubs in playing carreer, favourite personnel and the like. Why not add two preferred and unliked PPMs there?

Top post, and well explained. I hope that SI take this on board.

Originally posted by Si BHA:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

in the future with regens if ppms are randomnly generated it shout be linked to the players attributes however. e.g tries long shots should require long shots above 10 etc

i agree. but as i mentioned above, a league 2 player won't be as good as a premier league/ international player, but that shouldn't stop him from having a good long shot and accompanying PPM if he is the best player in that division. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A player's ability doesn't always reflect how he likes to play though. A player could have 1 for Long Shots and still take long shots all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That sounds like me

Originally posted by juve_curr:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turn it upto 11:

wont give a long post, i just generally agree. nice one. i also think players from certain country develops certain ppms. like brazilians would develop skil based ppms, englsh players would play the game a lot quicker(not an existing ppms) italians also play more defensivley(not currently a ppm.)

Oh get over the stereotypes!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

brazilians are generally more skillful, italians dirtier and more defensive and the english faster stronger and just generally more superior

Top post mate. Don't think it will get implemented this year though, maybe next one.

Originally posted by Si BHA:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Klimowicz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tom Leeburn:

in the future with regens if ppms are randomnly generated it shout be linked to the players attributes however. e.g tries long shots should require long shots above 10 etc

i agree. but as i mentioned above, a league 2 player won't be as good as a premier league/ international player, but that shouldn't stop him from having a good long shot and accompanying PPM if he is the best player in that division. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A player's ability doesn't always reflect how he likes to play though. A player could have 1 for Long Shots and still take long shots all the time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

thats what i said. sort of

i've not managed a L2 team, but i guess that 10s and 12s for stats are good standard, hence the comparason to a premier league player. thats the type of free transfer i was looking for at Lewes FC.

Any word from S.I.??

It would be nice if they could give us their possible views on this very imformative post.

Originally posted by Ackter:

1) Youngsters need to arrive with PPMs, in a way which Ched has covered

2) External influences - ie tutoring from older players, but also coaches should have preferences which can rub off on the right player

3) Managerial en/discouragement - You should simply be able to take a player aside in training and say "Stop ******* doing that" or "Try and drift wider more often" for example.

Class post Ackter!!!

Originally posted by Si BHA:

Yes 10/12 is a decent standard at that level. However as I said, the players ability isn't really relevant.

I spoke of having 1 for long shots; well a player could have 20 long shots and still not shoot from distance all the time because he might not like shooting from distance. He may prefer to play a short simple pass!

So I can't see any PPMs being linked to a players ability. Even giving players a PPM based on position is debatable, there's no reason why a defender wouldn't prefer to place his shots etc.

i see what you're saying, but the debate is about how regens can get PPMs. there are hardly any PPMs in long career games, unless you literally use a player as a "host" for PPMs like i have in the past, and now with Henri Lansbury. i'm just saying that if a 16 year old regen who has a good PA has 15 for passing, he'd reach 20 for passing by 19/21 with good training, if he rejects tutors and wants to "concentrate on developing his own game", why shouldn't he develope PPMs? even regardless of stats? players who don't want to be tutored are doomed to mediocrity.

i don't think anyone can argue with ideas for PPMs for non tutored youth players. even if PPMs aren't linked with stats, they need to appear more often in conjunction with how players are used by the manager, and hopefully more appropreately than my Milan game in fm07, when every new CB in italy had the ability to shoot from distance...

if not based on individual stats or position, whats wrong with a certain combination of coaches attributes, multiple stats & position meaning a young player automatically picks up PPMs? a player with (potentially) high composure, finishing & anticipation could get "tries first time shots" or "places shots" if the technique coach has a high rating for tech & working with youngsters? or a CB with potentially good strength, positioning and tackling stats "does not dive into tackles"?

i hope they're not just thrown into fm09, i'd love to see some of these ideas in it. maybe then i can get past 2015 on an FM game.

out of curiosity, are there many PPMs for players in lower leagues?

The probability of some PPMs developing in young players would be correlated with certain attributes relative to their CA

(although many PPMs are correlated with Flair and Bravery/Aggression which is not closely linked to ability anyway)

Some PPMs are much more correlated with intrinsic abilities than others. There are plenty of players with Long Shots in the low single digits that are still inclined to take them, and many that have great long range stats that aren't particularly likely to take them.

On the other hand, a 15 year old with a Free Kicks of 10 is probably a specialist at his level and it is possible he will have developed the habit of taking them from distance or hitting them with power whilst it is very unlikely that a 15 year old with a free kicks of 2 has developed any such preference.

Similarly, it is probably equally likely that relatively poor and relatively good tacklers will prefer not to dive into them, but quite unlikely that a poor man marker will ever become inclined to attempt to mark their opponent tightly.

Originally posted by Klimowicz:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Si BHA:

Yes 10/12 is a decent standard at that level. However as I said, the players ability isn't really relevant.

I spoke of having 1 for long shots; well a player could have 20 long shots and still not shoot from distance all the time because he might not like shooting from distance. He may prefer to play a short simple pass!

So I can't see any PPMs being linked to a players ability. Even giving players a PPM based on position is debatable, there's no reason why a defender wouldn't prefer to place his shots etc.

i see what you're saying, but the debate is about how regens can get PPMs. there are hardly any PPMs in long career games, unless you literally use a player as a "host" for PPMs like i have in the past, and now with Henri Lansbury. i'm just saying that if a 16 year old regen who has a good PA has 15 for passing, he'd reach 20 for passing by 19/21 with good training, if he rejects tutors and wants to "concentrate on developing his own game", why shouldn't he develope PPMs? even regardless of stats? players who don't want to be tutored are doomed to mediocrity.

i don't think anyone can argue with ideas for PPMs for non tutored youth players. even if PPMs aren't linked with stats, they need to appear more often in conjunction with how players are used by the manager, and hopefully more appropreately than my Milan game in fm07, when every new CB in italy had the ability to shoot from distance...

if not based on individual stats or position, whats wrong with a certain combination of coaches attributes, multiple stats & position meaning a young player automatically picks up PPMs? a player with (potentially) high composure, finishing & anticipation could get "tries first time shots" or "places shots" if the technique coach has a high rating for tech & working with youngsters? or a CB with potentially good strength, positioning and tackling stats "does not dive into tackles"?

i hope they're not just thrown into fm09, i'd love to see some of these ideas in it. maybe then i can get past 2015 on an FM game.

out of curiosity, are there many PPMs for players in lower leagues? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are getting confused here - PPM's don't determine how well a player can do something, it's something they will naturaly want to do, regardless of whether they can do it or not. For example if a player has tries first time shots, that means more likely he'll shoot more often than not before controlling the ball first, which may be handy if he is a excellent finisher, not all that good if his shots go out for throw-ins. Personally PPM's aren't really something you want your players full of, as they'll do these rather than obey your tactics.

Whilst I feel that some PPM's should be more common (I haven't really noticed any regens having any of the free-kick ones), others we should be able to train out of players - due you really want your left winger to always down the wing, when sometimes cutting inside would be the better option?

We really need some more interaction with the players on the training field and with their personality - say for example if you play a wide formation and want your wingers to hug the touchline, but one has the cuts inside PPM, a way of encourging the player to lose that PPM would be nice (whether he does or not would depend on his personality and mental attributes, and possibly the reputations of you, him and your coaches) or if the player always tries tricks but is useless at them. Alternatively you could try and train a young winger into huging the touchline.

Also if a player with argues with officals or dives into tackles (who cannot tackle) keep on getting sent off, have an option to tell them to calm down (again sucess depends on personality etc, - e.g. Paul Scholes still cannot tackle but it doesn't stop him trying).

When players get older or develop their PPM's should change (appear/disappear) for example Ryan Giggs when he was younger would have run down the left, but now he's older and lost some pace, he should lose it. Or a young player who tried tricks when younger, but wasn't always successful and has now matured (mental atrributes have inceased - decisions, teamwork etc) and now realises tries tricks all the time isn't helpful and should lose it. (Not having a certain PPM doesn't mean they never do that, PPM just mean they'll do that more often than not).

The people complaining about a lack of PPM's are you saying no players have any in your games, or players only have one or two? - as several of my regens each season are generated with PPMs, and I'm also fairly sure that young players can gain them on their own (or I just didn't notice the PPM in the past).

I think you are getting confused here - PPM's don't determine how well a player can do something, it's something they will naturaly want to do, regardless of whether they can do it or not.

firstly, no disrespect but i know exactly what a PPM is. granted, i might not have shown that in previous posts. my bad.

due you really want your left winger to always down the wing, when sometimes cutting inside would be the better option?

i play robin van persie on the right wing or right striker, one of his PPMs is indeed cuts inside, and it logically allows him to get onto his stronger foot and pass or shoot. he puts in more byline crosses when playing on the other side. i need players who can do things like this, any other left footed winger/striker playing on their opposite side can't cross and usually get shown onto their weak foot.

The people complaining about a lack of PPM's are you saying no players have any in your games, or players only have one or two? - as several of my regens each season are generated with PPMs, and I'm also fairly sure that young players can gain them on their own (or I just didn't notice the PPM in the past).

i wouldn't mind if 2 out of 10 of the new youth players had just one relevant PPM, but it's simply not the case in my game. even though my youth facilities at arsenal are now producing highly recommended players for the future, they don't have PPMs unless tutored, which has been hit and miss for me apart from Henri Lansbury.

refering again to my arsenal gamesave, why should a 4* potential rated 15-17 year old AMC who has 13-15 for passing/creativity and other relevant stats not learn how to play killer balls from his technical & attacking youth coach, especially if those aforementioned stats would mean by 22 he would have great overall stats due to my top facilities and coaches?

i do agree with some of your points, though. if players can lose stats with age they should lose PPMs. i also had a giggs example above regarding his positional change.

Originally posted by Si BHA:

So I can't see any PPMs being linked to a players ability. Even giving players a PPM based on position is debatable, there's no reason why a defender wouldn't prefer to place his shots etc.

The spread and values of attributes could be used as modifiers to decide how likely a player is to have certain PPMs.

Originally posted by Ched:

but i feel that U18 players should be moldable (if that's even a word...)

I think the word you're looking for is "malleable":

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/malleable

On topic: this was already an issue a few iterations ago. It's not so much that there aren't any players with PPMs; there are - I got several way back in FM06. The general feeling back then was that there simply weren't enough players being given PPMs and that new players never seemed to have more than one PPM. Conversely a lot of players in the database at the start seemed to have been blessed with a plethora of PPMs (maybe going a bit over the top).

I do think it's a good idea for young players to be able to pick up PPMs as you describe, and that this should be tied to how they are playing. I'd expect a 21 year old player who has spent the last 5 years using similar tactics under the same manager to have settled into some sort of routine regarding how they play (e.g. Arsenal players might get Plays short simple passes whilst Chelsea players get Argues with officials )