Too complex? Or just lacking in documentation?

I've been wondering about this after reading some threads: what is it with the Football manager series that makes it so frustrating for some and so exilerating for others playing the same game?

Let's face it: this is one tough/complex game. If you want to play it with all the options offered, that is. If you just speed through a season on key highlights and not do the press conferences yourself and not micromanaging training, it's possible to play 1 season a night (maybe).

If that's your cup of tea; great! Those players are probably having fun with the game, because they don't feel they are missing out on a gazillion features.

But what happens if you want to use all the features?

I like to micromanage my players. I like to ponder about tactics and changing settings based on my assman feedback. I like to evaluate training schedules for each and every player I have.

But the game is lacking in basic documentation to help you understand what you are seeing on screen and how to change things around. If the documentation isn't explaining some basic mechanisms and if the wording of some features (team talks) is so confusing that extensive trial and error is needed to get any insight in how the game works, then frustration sets in...

Frustration about the seemingly random nature of the game.

Frustration about the time you need to invest to grasp basic game functions.

One could say 'That's what real football is all about; trial and error. Seeing what works and what doesn't and learning from your mistakes.'

And I would agree. But in real football, a manager at least knows how his training works. He knows if his teamtalks are really are conveying the message he wants to. He doesn't need to guess about how many hidden atrributes are present in his players. He doesn't have to rate players on a unclear "star basis".

To be clear; I love playing FM!

I love the tactics creator, I love the "feel" of the game, I even love press conferences ( hey, I'm a bit nuts).

What I do hate though, is the lack of control over what I'm doing, caused by the lack of documention provided with this highly complex simulation.

I love the posts by Sfraser and other highly experienced players. But I do realise that even these players, who are extremely commited to getting everything 'right', are only basing their assumptions on guesswork (albeit educated guesswork )

My guess is that a lot of the rants on this board are caused by that same frustration: Frustration caused by trying out common sense football knowledge in FM, only to get results that do not respond to the players expectations. If you don't have a clue what's going on, it's rather difficult to have a educated impact on the whole process.

Can we please expect a full blown guide for FM11?

Maybe from this community? Maybe from SI?

Real football is way more complex than FM, but a lot of people don't realise that. Those FMers that think you should just assemble the best 11 players in the world and say "okay, lads, 442, attack" then go on and win every game, especially against inferior opposition, are just wrong.

Sometimes a frustrating game can be won with a tiny tweak "Oi, Gerrard, play a bit deeper; Kuyt, get narrower to Torres", or "Oi, Nani, get closer to Scholesy, cut inside that Right Back, he's slow".

You watch managers/coaches waving their arms and yelling on the sidelines, it's not random frustration - it's a constant stream of instructions to the players on the pitch.

But in terms of documentation, I think it IS hard for newcomers to the game to get to grips with it quickly. It's not like you can learn by repetition as you can with driving and shoot em up games. People like myself who have bought every version since 01/02 and older, we have grown with the game, understood the little tweaks (and big changes) to the game, but even though the appearance will change, the user interface essentially remains the same, so all we need to do is note the new features, use them or ignore them, then get on with figuring out the match engine.

The downloadable instructions are quite useful as is (I hear) wwfan's TT&F document. I haven't read it myself, but then I rarely struggle that much.

I'm not saying I'm struggling.

I don't consider myself a top-FM-player, but I reckon I'm better than average

And like you I'm an oldtimer; been playing this game for over a decade (I'm getting old...) and still loving it!

But what I find frustrating about the series is for example this:

training has been around in the current form for what, 4 or 5 years? But is there anybody who can really say they know how training and player development really functions? Apart from SI, that is.

I remember the turmoil when somebody posted that it didn't matter what level of coaching you have at your team (7 star (now 5 star) or 1 star coaches; it's all the same. The only "coach-contributing factor" in development was the workload of the coach). The whole discussion that ensued make it clear that nobody had the slightest idea of what he was doing... :confused:

That doesn't seem right.

Is it because training is too complex or is it because we just don't have the tools to figure it out?

It seems to me that the game assumes you're an FM veteran. A lot of it is counter-intuitive. I wonder how noobs cope, to be honest.*

I find training baffling and since I don't have 1000 hours of spare time to work it out tweak by tweak, I feel justified in just downloading someone else's.

(* - I'm a semi-veteran.)

Can we please expect a full blown guide for FM11?

Maybe from this community? Maybe from SI?

The best guide is T&T '10 produced by the community (or, actually, produced by the FM Britain community).

FM Britain is committed to producing articles, e-books and the like for FM. They are of a very high standard and, in many cases, written by people with an excellent knowledge of the game who have been directly involved in the process of testing and developing the game.

T&T '10 is a brilliant document in my humble opinion. A football tactics book in its own right, it is also an excellent guide to the tactical side of FM.

FM Britain also produce articles detailing many other aspects of football management (from squad building, to dealing with the media, and so on and so forth).

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/

The best guide is T&T '10 produced by the community (or, actually, produced by the FM Britain community).

FM Britain is committed to producing articles, e-books and the like for FM. They are of a very high standard and, in many cases, written by people with an excellent knowledge of the game who have been directly involved in the process of testing and developing the game.

T&T '10 is a brilliant document in my humble opinion. A football tactics book in its own right, it is also an excellent guide to the tactical side of FM.

FM Britain also produce articles detailing many other aspects of football management (from squad building, to dealing with the media, and so on and so forth).

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/

Shameless advertising, you read just like a commercial for JML then crouchy

ALL THIS. BUT WAIT.......... THERE'S MORE

The best guide is T&T '10 produced by the community (or, actually, produced by the FM Britain community).

FM Britain is committed to producing articles, e-books and the like for FM. They are of a very high standard and, in many cases, written by people with an excellent knowledge of the game who have been directly involved in the process of testing and developing the game.

T&T '10 is a brilliant document in my humble opinion. A football tactics book in its own right, it is also an excellent guide to the tactical side of FM.

FM Britain also produce articles detailing many other aspects of football management (from squad building, to dealing with the media, and so on and so forth).

http://www.fm-britain.co.uk/

Thanks for that

I guess it's a good start

I'll tell you what is frustration.

Currently playing in the Blue Square South. I've obviously gotten my tactics wrong, because of the following things happening constantly:

1) Defenders standing still, stopping suddenly, running the wrong way, sometimes a combination of all three.

2) Players letting the ball hit them, or miscontrolling basic passes, then pausing instead of getting the ball. This is assuming a pass even reaches them, with so many seemingly straight forward passes going just behind or too far forward of the intended target.

3) Players with the ball stopping and standing on the spot and then getting dispossessed.

4) Defenders just not reacting to second and third balls in the opposition area. The ball will get knocked down from a corner or a rebound or whatever, and they'll just stand next to it or move away from it.

5) Throw-ins will be lobbed up or thrown down the line to the opposition. If they are thrown short, more often than not the player receiving will miscontrol the ball, or in some cases will just stand still as it goes past him.

6) Of course, while this happens, the computer will play marvellous one touch football, with raking passes, dissecting through balls and a wonderful ability to win every loose ball and jump on every clearance.

Two things make this so incredibly frustrating.

1) Obviously it's likely more an issue with how the 3D is representing the match engine, rather than the match engine itself.

2) I know it's my tactics, but really, how am I supposed to counter stupidity? It just becomes a guessing game ("maybe lowering the tempo or ticking counter attack will mean my midfielders can accurately pass to an open team mate five metres away...").

That doesn't seem right.

Is it because training is too complex or is it because we just don't have the tools to figure it out?

I've been playing FM on the last 2 editions and I love it

But we shouldn't have to figure things out, there should be good explanations of what I should expect of anything in the game and based on that information we should create our strategies and tactics. Right now the best info on the game is fan made and is all over the net

I sometimes daydream about SI being bought up by a company like Blizzard and then revolutionsing FM with the new company policy.

This stupid deal with SEGA to produce a new version every year is not really working.

Every year there are some improvements in different parts of the game, but the match engine just goes around in circles of fixing one thing and breaking another.

What frustrates me is not really the fact that I do not understand the mechanisms in the game, but that I can almost see through the shallowness of the coding algorithms.

It just makes me sad that FM is actually the best football sim out there.