Where do you draw the line?

Just a small question to gather a general opinion for those who tinker a little with the game in the editor. I'll use my own recent experience as an example.

I decided that I wanted to create a "Scottish Super League" where I could try and emulate a league that could in future compete with that of the EPL. In the process of doing so I had a look at each of the 18 teams finances and noticed that there was a massive gulf in many of them. My question is, where do you draw the line between fair play and cheating?

Further to my previous statement, I went on to add a little bit of cash to teams I deemed in need of it in order to make as competitive a league long term as possible. However, I didn't deem it fair that I was simply giving money here and there whereas Celtic whom had a relatively small debt and fairly large capital. So I figured I could balance it out by increasing the debt as I gave out cash (Rangers having an added 25m, Raith Rovers 5m etc. debt for example) which benefits a team short term, but in the long term gives Celtic the upper hand should they perform well (Which they inevitably will).

Where from your own personal experiences have you drawn the line? For those that do not edit it's probably not the best of questions - but just because you don't choose to use the editor doesn't mean that you do not have an idea on the matter.

I usually don't give out any money, debts, or facilities improvement. Whenever I play a game where I've done thae I get bored pretty quickly.

All I usually do is activate the lower leagues, correct the names of some of the competitions, and make the german national team available.

Once in a while, I may also put myself in the game, with acurate as possible stats.

Personally, I feel tampering with any set data is wrong.

But hey, it's there to be used. You could always alter the chairman's stats so they are richer in your super league? So a team that is naturally richer like Celtic, could be compensated by giving the smaller clubs a slight richer chairman?

Just an idea

Once in a while, I may also put myself in the game, with acurate as possible stats.

I never realised the game went that far down the football pyramid.

I never realised the game went that far down the football pyramid.

I put myself as a free agent. It's nice seeing where my career takes me.

Personally, I feel tampering with any set data is wrong.

But hey, it's there to be used. You could always alter the chairman's stats so they are richer in your super league? So a team that is naturally richer like Celtic, could be compensated by giving the smaller clubs a slight richer chairman?

Just an idea

It is a good idea, but if (with my lack of knowledge ) I was to accidentally improve a chairman too much I don't want to get half way into a game before realising "Shoot, Dunfermline have got millions now from nowhere!!"

The debt I've added is 20% more than the money I've added. To make things slightly more interesting.

I put myself as a free agent. It's nice seeing where my career takes me.

Has it taken you anywhere interesting yet? Generally what do you set your PA at also? Have to admit it would be interesting to watch it!

It is a good idea, but if (with my lack of knowledge ) I was to accidentally improve a chairman too much I don't want to get half way into a game before realising "Shoot, Dunfermline have got millions now from nowhere!!"

The debt I've added is 20% more than the money I've added. To make things slightly more interesting.

I suppose you could always use FMRTE to troubleshoot any instances like that?

I put myself as a free agent. It's nice seeing where my career takes me.

Pub>Club>Training>Pub>Club>Pub>Club>Training>Retire>Pub>Pub>Pub>Pub

Once in a while, I may also put myself in the game, with acurate as possible stats.

I couldn't try that. i don't think even 1s in every category could recreate the ability that led to my entire football career being one appearance for Penketh South Primary School in 1993, in the centre of defence for a 6-1 defeat.

I suppose you could always use FMRTE to troubleshoot any instances like that?

Fair point, however I'm trying to avoid installing FMRTE because the temptation to make one change to many will be there, and it's one change too many that ruins a good game!

Fair point, however I'm trying to avoid installing FMRTE because the temptation to make one change to many will be there, and it's one change too many that ruins a good game!

I understand about the temptation, like asking a fat kid to look after a cake shop

You could always just do a test save, then holiday and see what happens. Or ask in the editors hideaway, there is probably someone in there who has done this or similar before

I understand about the temptation, like asking a fat kid to look after a cake shop

You could always just do a test save, then holiday and see what happens. Or ask in the editors hideaway, there is probably someone in there who has done this or similar before

Haha perfect analogy there! Thanks for all your help sir! I'm running the save at the moment and so far it's enjoyable but still remaining challenging - which to be fair as long as I'm enjoying it, shouldn't matter

Has it taken you anywhere interesting yet? Generally what do you set your PA at also? Have to admit it would be interesting to watch it!

Me being sad, I've actually got my player's career from each main save I do written down. :o

07

Signed by Bury in the 08/09 season. Played for their reserve team for about a year and a half. Made my 1st team debut half way through the 10/11 season. Stayed at Bury for 4 years after that, getting promoted from League 2. Left on a free when they went into admin in the 15/16 season.

08

Snapped up in the opening transfer window by Bristol, but they went down the same season. Sold to Reading (CCL1) in the 09/10 season, and got promotion with them in the 11/12 season. Stayed with them for over 10 years, all the while remaining a backup in a solid, mid-table Championship side.

09

Remained clubless until the Jan transfer window of the 10/11 season, when I was signed on a youth contract by Aston Villa. Released when I was too old to play in the U18s, and went on trial to Wolves and Burnley. In the end I signed for Reading (Championship), and made my 1st team debut in the 15/16 season, and have played 15 matches since.

I haven't done this for FM10 yet.

I couldn't try that. i don't think even 1s in every category could recreate the ability that led to my entire football career being one appearance for Penketh South Primary School in 1993, in the centre of defence for a 6-1 defeat.

Blimey, my career is positvely glittering compared to that

I blamed the performance on the PE teacher favouring a flat back four, rather than the sweeper system we played in the playground (having watched too much Football Italia). The rest of the team were inclined to believe I was just sh*t.

I blamed the performance on the PE teacher favouring a flat back four, rather than the sweeper system we played in the playground (having watched too much Football Italia). The rest of the team were inclined to believe I was just sh*t.

Haha! At least you got a game for your primary team!

I played 2 games and 1 tournament (as the B team), scored in each game and never got a look in. Played in my local under 16's team before a couple of hernia operations put me out. 2 in the space of 2 years, you'd rarely hear of it as well! Rotten luck! haha

I blamed the performance on the PE teacher favouring a flat back four, rather than the sweeper system we played in the playground (having watched too much Football Italia). The rest of the team were inclined to believe I was just sh*t.

Of course it was. Why didn't you just tell the PE teacher "It's your tactics!" ??

Haha! At least you got a game for your primary team!

I played 2 games and 1 tournament (as the B team), scored in each game and never got a look in. Played in my local under 16's team before a couple of hernia operations put me out. 2 in the space of 2 years, you'd rarely hear of it as well! Rotten luck! haha

My turn, Played 7 seasons at sunday from the age of 17. Scored 42 goals from right wing/striker, then had to give it up.

Since then I made a one-off comeback in a charity game where I scored the winner in a 5-4 win!

I also got 9 red cards in my career and a year ban

My turn, Played 7 seasons at sunday from the age of 17. Scored 42 goals from right wing/striker, then had to give it up.

Since then I made a one-off comeback in a charity game where I scored the winner in a 5-4 win!

I also got 9 red cards in my career and a year ban

I got booked only once for a tripping someone who was going to go clean on goal, luckily I wasn't the last defender so it was only a yellow

I got booked only once for a tripping someone who was going to go clean on goal, luckily I wasn't the last defender so it was only a yellow

I got booked once for tugging a striker back by the shirt. The ref gave me a yellow, and the striker was standing behind him waving the torn shirt around.

I got booked only once for a tripping someone who was going to go clean on goal, luckily I wasn't the last defender so it was only a yellow

My one year ban was for elbowing, they're pretty strict on things like that in my local league, or they used to be anyway. My red cards, take off the elbow, I was always poor at tackling

Once got a booking for kicking the ball away... when I was about 10.:o

Once got a booking for kicking the ball away... when I was about 10.:o

Aww! Seems a bit harsh...

I remove debt in a couple of ways - all clubs in European leagues with a reputation of 6000 or greater; that way it's a level playing fiekd for everyone likely to be taking part in Euro competitions. And all clubs in the country of my home club, so there's no favouritism.

Debt is very poorly implemented in the game for a variety of reasons, generally. So if anyone thinks it's 'realistic' not to edit it they're kidding themselves - IMO.

The other side to it is that Man U, Inter, etc. won't be financially crippled and relegated. I want to be playing against these sides, not seeing them relegated to oblivion.

I remove debt in a couple of ways - all clubs in European leagues with a reputation of 6000 or greater; that way it's a level playing fiekd for everyone likely to be taking part in Euro competitions. And all clubs in the country of my home club, so there's no favouritism.

Debt is very poorly implemented in the game for a variety of reasons, generally. So if anyone thinks it's 'realistic' not to edit it they're kidding themselves - IMO.

The other side to it is that Man U, Inter, etc. won't be financially crippled and relegated. I want to be playing against these sides, not seeing them relegated to oblivion.

Would you care to explain why you think debts are poorly implimented?

I don't see the problem personally. If a club has debts irl then they should have debts in the game. Editing them out is cheating imo, as you no longer are faced with the challange (if you're managing one of the debt ridden teams) of getting them out of debt and back to the top.

Would you care to explain why you think debts are poorly implimented?

I don't see the problem personally. If a club has debts irl then they should have debts in the game. Editing them out is cheating imo, as you no longer are faced with the challange (if you're managing one of the debt ridden teams) of getting them out of debt and back to the top.

The 'real life' bit is the problem.

Example 1: in the database Inter have a debt of around £400m IIRC. In real life they have no debt. The chairmans wallet might be a bit lighter during each close season, but anyone buying the club would not inherit a debt - as their isn't one. Lots of the Italian clubs are the same.

Example 2: I'm not sure of the amount of debt (in-game) that clubs like Man U and Liverpool have, other than it's huge. This cripples them (assuming they have AI management) and they regularly sink to lower divisions. In real life if they were in a similar danger the debt would be re-negotiated by the bank, as they would still recover the debt. Yes, it would be over a longer period, but better that than either not at all or over an even longer period.

Example 3: In particular German and Brazilian clubs - lots of these big clubs have large debts, yes. However, they're paying out considerable dividends each year, whilst in real life I don't believe they do - they're run in a kind of trustee and membership set-up if you like, where profits (if there are any) are re-invested or used to pay the debts (if there are any).

Example 4: Roma have a debt in-game which is not equal to their real life status. Their owners businesses are in a bad way which means they can't make significant investment in the club (like Inter, example 1). However the period of austerity they're currently going through is down to this, and not the club having a debt the size it is in the database.

I'm sure there are lots of other examples. These are the ones which spring to mind immediately.

I remove debt in a couple of ways - all clubs in European leagues with a reputation of 6000 or greater; that way it's a level playing fiekd for everyone likely to be taking part in Euro competitions. And all clubs in the country of my home club, so there's no favouritism.

Debt is very poorly implemented in the game for a variety of reasons, generally. So if anyone thinks it's 'realistic' not to edit it they're kidding themselves - IMO.

The other side to it is that Man U, Inter, etc. won't be financially crippled and relegated. I want to be playing against these sides, not seeing them relegated to oblivion.

Unfortunately, them clubs over leveraged themselves so may have to take the consequences.

The 'real life' bit is the problem.

Example 1: in the database Inter have a debt of around £400m IIRC. In real life they have no debt. The chairmans wallet might be a bit lighter during each close season, but anyone buying the club would not inherit a debt - as their isn't one. Lots of the Italian clubs are the same.

Example 2: I'm not sure of the amount of debt (in-game) that clubs like Man U and Liverpool have, other than it's huge. This cripples them (assuming they have AI management) and they regularly sink to lower divisions. In real life if they were in a similar danger the debt would be re-negotiated by the bank, as they would still recover the debt. Yes, it would be over a longer period, but better that than either not at all or over an even longer period.

Example 3: In particular German and Brazilian clubs - lots of these big clubs have large debts, yes. However, they're paying out considerable dividends each year, whilst in real life I don't believe they do - they're run in a kind of trustee and membership set-up if you like, where profits (if there are any) are re-invested or used to pay the debts (if there are any).

Example 4: Roma have a debt in-game which is not equal to their real life status. Their owners businesses are in a bad way which means they can't make significant investment in the club (like Inter, example 1). However the period of austerity they're currently going through is down to this, and not the club having a debt the size it is in the database.

I'm sure there are lots of other examples. These are the ones which spring to mind immediately.

IRL, the problem with Man Utd and Liverpool's debt is that they can't renegotiate them. There is a money shortage and only the best candidates will get it from the banks. They may just get the cash, but they'll be paying more in interest if they do renegotiate.

The 'real life' bit is the problem.

Example 1: in the database Inter have a debt of around £400m IIRC. In real life they have no debt. The chairmans wallet might be a bit lighter during each close season, but anyone buying the club would not inherit a debt - as their isn't one. Lots of the Italian clubs are the same.

Example 2: I'm not sure of the amount of debt (in-game) that clubs like Man U and Liverpool have, other than it's huge. This cripples them (assuming they have AI management) and they regularly sink to lower divisions. In real life if they were in a similar danger the debt would be re-negotiated by the bank, as they would still recover the debt. Yes, it would be over a longer period, but better that than either not at all or over an even longer period.

Example 3: In particular German and Brazilian clubs - lots of these big clubs have large debts, yes. However, they're paying out considerable dividends each year, whilst in real life I don't believe they do - they're run in a kind of trustee and membership set-up if you like, where profits (if there are any) are re-invested or used to pay the debts (if there are any).

Example 4: Roma have a debt in-game which is not equal to their real life status. Their owners businesses are in a bad way which means they can't make significant investment in the club (like Inter, example 1). However the period of austerity they're currently going through is down to this, and not the club having a debt the size it is in the database.

I'm sure there are lots of other examples. These are the ones which spring to mind immediately.

Agree on the Italian example. The clubs owner pays off the debt since any profit also goes to him so the club is never affected. This would change if he died on the job or his company went bust, then the club would likely disolve and re-emerge as something else. Classic example Parma.

Agree on the Italian example. The clubs owner pays off the debt since any profit also goes to him so the club is never affected. This would change if he died on the job or his company went bust, then the club would likely disolve and re-emerge as something else. Classic example Parma.

And Fiorentina? Years ago? Or have I messed up? Weren't they Florentina Viola or something?

Unfortunately, them clubs over leveraged themselves so may have to take the consequences.

Which clubs do you mean?

IRL, the problem with Man Utd and Liverpool's debt is that they can't renegotiate them. There is a money shortage and only the best candidates will get it from the banks. They may just get the cash, but they'll be paying more in interest if they do renegotiate.

I won't argue here, I'm sure you know much more about English football than I do - it's not my thing.

And Fiorentina? Years ago? Or have I messed up? Weren't they Florentina Viola or something?

This is similar to Romas current status, and what jsolloso mentions.

The club has a wage bill>it's outwith their 'means'>the owner subsidises any losses. The problems start when that help is withdrawn for whatever reason.

Inter, etc. currently don't have debt or it's negligible, due to help from a patron. Roma have had their funding slashed by the Sensi family due to other business problems. Fiorentina at that time were owned by a film producer (as are Napoli currently); he funded a level of playing staff outside Fiorentinas means (as does the Napoli patron de Laurentis) and then for whatever reason stopped. In Italy, before each season, the clubs have to present a kind of financial forecast to the league to show they can subsist in that league; if it's plain they can't then they'll be relegated - like Fiorentina then.

Like I said, Englands your thing so I won't disagree. But although I may have details mixed-up, I think I'm generally correct in saying debt representation in FM isn't very accurate. I'm not finding fault with SI or the people around the world that help them with the database. It's just in my opinion (which is all that was asked for by the OP) it makes for a 'better' and more level playing field if debts removed.

Enjoy your game, I'll enjoy mine

PS. on the 'challenge' topic you mentioned, I do have other 'controls' to keep it interesting

I put myself as a free agent. It's nice seeing where my career takes me.

I love doing this! I always try and make myself realistic ie really low work rate, natural fitness, pace etc and in each of the last 5 saves I've had I've been signed by an Irish team, either Shamrock Rovers or someone like that. I often put my Dad in the game too as a coach of Barnet then set us up so we have each other as favourite personell, pretty sad really! It is funny seeing how you get on though, I once played the team I was signed by in a friendly and I injured one of my best players annoyingly! Maybe I shouldn't be so rubbish at tackling haha.

I usually do a CA of about 70 and PA of 90 and do a TF facepack style picture