Patch 10.3

Hey SI i was just wondering what will happen if portsmouth or cardiff are wound up by the high court before the patch comes out? would they be taken out and prem turn to a 19 team league for a season?

Interesting thought. I'd like to know as well

Hey SI i was just wondering what will happen if portsmouth or cardiff are wound up by the high court before the patch comes out? would they be taken out and prem turn to a 19 team league for a season?

I very much doubt it. If a ruling isn't made by the time SI release the patch, then SI won't put anything concrete into the game, lest it be different to what is ruled irl.

Hey SI i was just wondering what will happen if portsmouth or cardiff are wound up by the high court before the patch comes out? would they be taken out and prem turn to a 19 team league for a season?

Neither will be wound up, so no need to discuss it really IMO. It just won't happen, essentially football clubs are 'above the law' in regards legal terms/the way companies work.

Football clubs can be wound up, then all that needs to happen is they register as a different company for £1 with the administrators who have come in and they start again with hardly any debt, they end up paying the companies they owe money to about 1 pence of every £1 they owe, ala Leeds United.

It is something which is being looked at because pretty much any other company if they go totally bankrupt/insolvant ends up being closed. Football clubs don't.

Anything that is confirmed before the 10.3 code lock would probabaly be incorporated if it was easy to implement but it would have to be fact.

Neither will be wound up, so no need to discuss it really IMO. It just won't happen, essentially football clubs are 'above the law' in regards legal terms/the way companies work.

Football clubs can be wound up, then all that needs to happen is they register as a different company for £1 with the administrators who have come in and they start again with hardly any debt, they end up paying the companies they owe money to about 1 pence of every £1 they owe, ala Leeds United.

It is something which is being looked at because pretty much any other company if they go totally bankrupt/insolvant ends up being closed. Football clubs don't.

this has nothing to do with the question asked. :confused:

It is something which is being looked at because pretty much any other company if they go totally bankrupt/insolvant ends up being closed. Football clubs don't.

Hallo SI Are able do you also what does the most of clubs a winter stop in the winter what also in real is and then training in a another land

Hallo SI Are able do you also what does the most of clubs a winter stop in the winter what also in real is and then training in a another land

You using google translate by any chance?

yes i can not speak good english

Anything that is confirmed before the 10.3 code lock would probabaly be incorporated if it was easy to implement but it would have to be fact.

I wouldnt be at all surprised if it is already code locked, and its just a case of releasing it now.. thats my opinion anyway

When a footie club goes under, unlike any other business, the administrators allocate "preferred creditors", which essentially means that non-preferred creditors get nothing until the preferred ones are paid off. In Portsmouth's case, the "preferred creditors" are other football club, so the caterers, etc, get nothing, but the clubs they owe money to get their monthly income, albeit perhaps at a reduced rate. But there's good reason, and perhaps explains why Portsmouth will not cease to function entirely:

For example, if Portsmouth are still paying off a club like Oxford at £50k per month for someone they bought over 24 months (like you can do in FM) Oxford will have integrated that £50k per month into their budget. Losing that £50k per month may have a hugely detrimental effect on their income, and if they are using that cash to stay afloat it can meant they can go under. If Oxford owe, say £10k per month to, say, Stafford Rangers, the Stafford Rangers, too, may have to survive on that cash, and so on down the line. And it's not just smaller or domestic clubs it can effect, either, since I think Portsmouth owe a few French clubs money as well.

Forgive the maths if it doesn't work out, but the principle is the same.

If a lot of clubs all owe each other regular cash payments for players traded months ago, when one of them goes under and stops paying it can have a seriously bad effect all round. It's kind-of like the sub-prime thing with the banks - as soon as the pass-the-parcel game ends, everyone loses.

Actually what you described is what other companies do as well - nothing special for football clubs there.

Football Clubs are actually very different. They pay 1p to the £1 to regular companies, charities and non-playing staff members but all playing employees are payed in full while people like the St. John's Ambulance a charity get a tippance.

I wouldnt be at all surprised if it is already code locked, and its just a case of releasing it now.. thats my opinion anyway

you would think it would be locked by now. According to whats been said the patch will be released in 2 weeks so surely they must need time to test the patch before release

Football Clubs are actually very different. They pay 1p to the £1 to regular companies, charities and non-playing staff members but all playing employees are payed in full while people like the St. John's Ambulance a charity get a tippance.

Nice to see someone else who knows what theyare talking about.

I didn't go in to explicit detail when describing how it happens but football clubs are very different to any other company. Essentially it will take a lot more than just bankruptcy to make them go out of the league.

Christ, GD's giving out business studies lessons now:rolleyes:

Christ, GD's giving out business studies lessons now:rolleyes:

There is nothing wrong with learning along the way is there?

Judging by the standard of spelling alone on here a few could do with learning a little about life whilst looking through forums.

When a footie club goes under, unlike any other business, the administrators allocate "preferred creditors", which essentially means that non-preferred creditors get nothing until the preferred ones are paid off.

Absolute rubbish.

All companies have their creditors split between preferential & non-preferential by the administrators.

Absolute rubbish.

All companies have their creditors split between preferential & non-preferential by the administrators.

The way it actually works is the bigger debts get paid first, samller debts are then re negotiated, (im sure thats wrong spelling lol) I used to work for JJB when it was going breasts up and thats what they done lol.

I very much doubt it. If a ruling isn't made by the time SI release the patch, then SI won't put anything concrete into the game, lest it be different to what is ruled irl.

fair comment but if they did get thrown out of the prem, do you think si would re-release 10.3 with portsmouth taken out at later date?

fair comment but if they did get thrown out of the prem, do you think si would re-release 10.3 with portsmouth taken out at later date?

Hmm... don't know. Which club will replace them will have to be worked out first.

Hmm... don't know. Which club will replace them will have to be worked out first.

according to prem league the ruling is if a club goes bust in prem then the league would go to a 19 team league for remainder of season and obviously results against that club would be scrapped. thus turning the prem to a 36 game season for just that season, then only 2 are relegated with 3 coming up and so on, so for one season only every league would have 1 less relegation space lol. bit of a pain for SI tho i imagine lol.

according to prem league the ruling is if a club goes bust in prem then the league would go to a 19 team league for remainder of season and obviously results against that club would be scrapped. thus turning the prem to a 36 game season for just that season, then only 2 are relegated with 3 coming up and so on, so for one season only every league would have 1 less relegation space lol. bit of a pain for SI tho i imagine lol.

It would just be so much easier if Portsmouth waited until the off-season to go bust.

It would just be so much easier if Portsmouth waited until the off-season to go bust.

haha yeah i agree lol the prem league chairman should think of others such as SI before making such decisions lol

Actually under Irish and UK law the preferrence of debt in a winding up is fixed charge debt (ie debt which is secured by an asset, like a mortgage), preferential debt (in the order of taxes, then wages, then all other forms), flaoting charges (a debt which only crystalises on its security on default, it's complicated), unsecured debt (like your phone bill), and then shareholders interest (if there is any money left it is divided based on % shares held.

The FA though has put in a rule that in order for a club to come under it's aegis (i.e. play in any FA sanctioned competition), then the club must satisfy its "football debts" essentially money owed to other clubs, associations, and football related staff before it can pay off a penny of any of its other debt. While the Taxman up until recently have abided by this, it has no basis in law and is unenforceable. What has change the Taxman's view is the fact that a lot of the clubs now going into administration are deliberately defrauding the tax bills, (i.e. they are giving false returns, or are not paying the taxes owed when they are able to do so).

I wouldnt be at all surprised if it is already code locked, and its just a case of releasing it now.. thats my opinion anyway

hopefully soon

If anyone thinks Pompey will go out of business they are deluding themselves. Portsmouth have guaranteed TV money coming in, and guaranteed gate reciepts until the end of the season. Administration at worst, probably relegation aswell but Portsmouth would still exist.

by the way...when will it come up? the patch , that is

If anyone thinks Pompey will go out of business they are deluding themselves. Portsmouth have guaranteed TV money coming in, and guaranteed gate reciepts until the end of the season. Administration at worst, probably relegation aswell but Portsmouth would still exist.

All true, but they still might go out of business. It's a genuine possibility. If they can't demonstrate a viable plan for paying off their debts, they are likely to be wound-up. There's no suggestion that the TV money and gate receipts will cover it.

I guess we'll just have to see...

si said late february:thup:

but what year :rolleyes:

re portsmouth, cant see fa allowing them to go under this season ..................it would could massive probs deducting points/goals from clubs/players;)

All true, but they still might go out of business. It's a genuine possibility. If they can't demonstrate a viable plan for paying off their debts, they are likely to be wound-up. There's no suggestion that the TV money and gate receipts will cover it.

I guess we'll just have to see...

They are due £11 million in TV money plus whatever in matchday revenue. Reportedly they owe HMRC £13.5 million and they have the right to convisgate those furture earnings. Other creditors mean nothing when the taxman gets involved.

As you say though, we shall just have to wait and see.

Actually under Irish and UK law the preferrence of debt in a winding up is fixed charge debt (ie debt which is secured by an asset, like a mortgage), preferential debt (in the order of taxes, then wages, then all other forms), flaoting charges (a debt which only crystalises on its security on default, it's complicated), unsecured debt (like your phone bill), and then shareholders interest (if there is any money left it is divided based on % shares held.

The FA though has put in a rule that in order for a club to come under it's aegis (i.e. play in any FA sanctioned competition), then the club must satisfy its "football debts" essentially money owed to other clubs, associations, and football related staff before it can pay off a penny of any of its other debt. While the Taxman up until recently have abided by this, it has no basis in law and is unenforceable. What has change the Taxman's view is the fact that a lot of the clubs now going into administration are deliberately defrauding the tax bills, (i.e. they are giving false returns, or are not paying the taxes owed when they are able to do so).

This is pretty much the only post that is even close to being factual here. And even this part of the discussion is off topic.

It could easily have been closed after FrazT's post because now we have a group of FM fans who think they are insolvency/tax/administration specialists.

This is pretty much the only post that is even close to being factual here. And even this part of the discussion is off topic.

It could easily have been closed after FrazT's post because now we have a group of FM fans who think they are insolvency/tax/administration specialists.

I don't think anyone here is an expert. However, there isn't a single expert on these matters who has come out and said that Pompey won't be wound-up. For Christ sake, they're already on the verge of it! It's happening. They're right on the precipice and that much is obvious to anyone.

Can the league handle a winding up though? dont think ive ever seen it in the game.

Can the league handle a winding up though? dont think ive ever seen it in the game.

It can't happen independantly in the game. If a club goes into admin, someone else just comes along, buys the club, and rights off all the debts.

They are due £11 million in TV money plus whatever in matchday revenue. Reportedly they owe HMRC £13.5 million and they have the right to convisgate those furture earnings. Other creditors mean nothing when the taxman gets involved.

As you say though, we shall just have to wait and see.

The Premier League are also said to be considering giving Pompey an advance on next years money to the value of one seasons parachute payment, so yeah, it's looking very unlikely that they will be liquidated. I don't know if HMRC look into the businesses ability to pay projected future taxes or not though so that could prove a stumbling block for Portsmouth.

It can't happen independantly in the game. If a club goes into admin, someone else just comes along, buys the club, and rights off all the debts.

SO the answer to the question of the OP is no. Simply as the game structure cannot cope with just 19 teams.

SO the answer to the question of the OP is no. Simply as the game structure cannot cope with just 19 teams.

It can't cope because SI have programmed it not to cope. If they rewrite the league structure, then it could function perfectly.

SO the answer to the question of the OP is no. Simply as the game structure cannot cope with just 19 teams.

Nothing to do with game structures, it's to do with licensing issues.

If a team goes out of business then SI will have to replicate it in the game.

SO the answer to the question of the OP is no. Simply as the game structure cannot cope with just 19 teams.

IIRC, either last year or the year before, one of the Belgian leagues started with one extra team both in game and IRL due to two clubs both claiming rights to be in the league, so I don't see that a league couldn't be down a team for the first season.

SO the answer to the question of the OP is no. Simply as the game structure cannot cope with just 19 teams.

Well wait and see what miles says as he's due to make his guest apperance during the next few days regarding the patch

To simon.baker, I dont believe for a second that it would be possible to run a 19 team league in FM10. It wont leave blank spaces in fixtures lists etc and the programming was made for 20 teams. I would envisage many crashes if it happened.

IIRC, either last year or the year before, one of the Belgian leagues started with one extra team both in game and IRL due to two clubs both claiming rights to be in the league, so I don't see that a league couldn't be down a team for the first season.

Even if this was the case, if it was at the start of the game it was hard coded. This wouldnt be possible as FM is already out there and theyre unlikely to drastically change code that much to put a 19 team league in.

Out of interest, did it move back down to regular numbers in the second season?

Just release it already

To simon.baker, I dont believe for a second that it would be possible to run a 19 team league in FM10. It wont leave blank spaces in fixtures lists etc and the programming was made for 20 teams. I would envisage many crashes if it happened.

It could be done very easily. There are already leagues that exist in the game (and irl) with fewer than 20 teams. It would be a simply matter of changing the number of teams in the Prem, and then doing this:

only 2 are relegated with 3 coming up and so on, so for one season only every league would have 1 less relegation space lol.

Jesus i only asked what would happen lol

It could be done very easily. There are already leagues that exist in the game (and irl) with fewer than 20 teams. It would be a simply matter of changing the number of teams in the Prem, and then doing this:

I get what Edle is saying. Say this situation happened at the start of the season but before the game was released, SI could hard-code it for just 1 season to account for what would happen IRL. Much like the squad numbers thing for next season.

The big question is could SI change this just via a patch?

I get what Edle is saying. Say this situation happened at the start of the season but before the game was released, SI could hard-code it for just 1 season to account for what would happen IRL. Much like the squad numbers thing for next season.

The big question is could SI change this just via a patch?

I think everyone's agreed that no big changes will be made in the patches. It's much safer for SI to wait and see what happens because, if they do it now and get it wrong, they'll have people throwing their dummies out of their prams and demanding their money back...

I think everyone's agreed that no big changes will be made in the patches. It's much safer for SI to wait and see what happens because, if they do it now and get it wrong, they'll have people throwing their dummies out of their prams and demanding their money back...

They get that anyway dont they?

They get that anyway dont they?

Quite right. :D

I'm sure they want to do everything possible to avoid even more of the moaners though.

I get what Edle is saying. Say this situation happened at the start of the season but before the game was released, SI could hard-code it for just 1 season to account for what would happen IRL. Much like the squad numbers thing for next season.

The big question is could SI change this just via a patch?

Exactly my point