Youth Players

I know that you get coaches in and you set them the task of training players and your youth team. But a youth player never ever exceeds their potential or increases their CA playing in reserves or youth leagues or with training. CA and PA never budge when they're in the youth or reserves. And isn't that the point of these leagues, to increase their CA so they're ready for 1st team football?

Isn't it conceivable that players with a low PA could, with the correct training, excel into a good player. It's happened to plenty of players, like David Platt and Ian Wright to name two. And isn't it plausible that youth players CA's would increase when playing in youth reserves or out on loan. Currently it doesn't seem to happen.

Playing in Youth leagues their CA and PA doesn't increase, or decrease.

The only way to get your youth players to be very good is to start playing them in 1st team football when they're 18/19. If they have a high PA and a low CA you nearly have to start playing them at 16/17 to get them up their full PA. Because lord knows that if you play them in reserves or youth leagues or put them out on loan they don't improve. 0% increase in players. No matter what training or how many reserve or youth games they play. You put them out on loan and they go and play 18/19 games and score 10 goals, they're 18, and they come back from loan at 19/20 years of age and they haven't improved in their CA.

What's the point in loaning out your youth stars if they don't improve. You have to play youth players with low CAs in the first team or they never improve, which I think is wrong.

Case in point -

I had a young goalkeeper of 16 that has a PA of 195, but CA is only 90.

I got the great youth coach for my goalkeepers, Youth Coach goalkeeping training had nearly full stars.

Played the keeper in the Youth team until he was 18 and then moved him to the reserves.

He played in the reserves until 20, and then I made him my back up goalkeeper for the first team.

I managed to get him out on loan with the "Valuable 1st team player" and he played a season on loan in the next division below and played every game.

He came back to me from on loan for a season and his CA hasn't budged.

He's 22 now and his CA is still 90 and his PA is still 195.

And it's the same for all youth players. Unless they play about 18 or 19 games in the first team then they can't improve.

Hope that made sense?

Wow that's weird

I sent my 20yro DC with very high potential out on loan to the Championship and he came back almost ready to slot into the england set-up (well, he made it in 5yrs )

also my 16yros seem to get about 10-20CA points (max about 110) playing in the U18s

It's been bugging me for ages. Just wondering if others are having similar experiences.

Maybe it's just me

Maybe it's just him (the player). Maybe the scout tool you used was wrong about his PA.

Players improve in the u19s, reserves and on loan. They improve faster in the first team, but they still improve in others.

What's his professionalism like? Professionalism plays a major role in determining how players develop

lol i have two young Goalkeepers one is 19 and the other is 18 there both amazing and have lower professionalism than that im pretty sure but ill check

Players with low workrate need alot of work to improve. Regen goalkeepers have a tendency to have very low workrates and they sometimes dont reach anywhere near their PA for ages

Let's see

Determination 10

Work Rate 4

Adapatability 12

Ambition 7

Pressure 15

Professionalism 17

Sportsmanship 12

(ok not the greatest stats - not a great example - I'll see if I can isolate more examples though)

But as the player gets older why can't Determination, Ambition, Professionalism, Sportsmanship - why can't those Attirbutes change as the player matures? That's what happens in real life. But these stats seem to be set in stone, unless you play the player in the first team.

He's 23 now - and I'm swapping him every second game, and all lower league and non-important Champ League games etc.

I'll see how he's improved at the end of this season (31 Aug now)

Since I bought him he's gone from 90 - 100 in CA in 6 or 7 years.

That's with top goalkeeping training, reserve matches and youth matches and been out on loan for a whole season.

But it's not just this player. It's most players I have.

If I don't play them in 1st team football they never ever improve.

Surely a Youth player should improve coming up through the ranks, on their own.

And I'm not just talking about players with massive PAs, even players that are around 150 - 170, they don't improve unless I play them.

Sometimes I do have to play them due to injuries, sometimes a player is out for 6 months and once I play them they improve massively.

How can a player that has made no improvement from the age of 16 - 19 years of age then suddenly they get 6 months of football and their CA jumps up.

Actually as I went through players as examples I realised that players with high:

Determination

Ambition

Work Rate

Professionalism

Develop faster.

I've got players roughly the same age and PA, but the players with higher stats (as listed above) are developing faster, even with the same amount of games played in their career.

So now I just have to avoid players with low stats like that so.

But I still think that these stats could change with as the players get older.

The PA is set in stone, and nobody really knows what the PA of a youth player truly is.

So all in all I'd like to see some stats being dynamic as players mature. Once they hit say 24 their stats should become static.

Or something.

I have exactly the same scenario - one of my young strikers has gained a whopping 4 CA points over 2 years playing in the youth team. Youngsters simply fail to develop in youth teams. They develop moderately quickly on loan but then that simply means that any youngsters in your reserves are useless and need to be sold.

Should have brought back the FM08 youngster development, which was perfect except that youngsters on occasion had CAs that were a bit too low (+5-10% seems roughly OK) and PAs were a bit dodgy especially in lower leagues.

There is very detailed analysis of training and player development in the Tactics & Training forum.

Thanks for the tip. I'll have a read of them.

But I just thought I'd say that I don't think it's right that a player you have in your training only develops 10 CA points in 7 years at the club.

Seems unrealistic.

Actually learned a bit about how the youth develops though - well what stats are important. But I think those stats should be dynamic when they're youth players

Thanks for the tip. I'll have a read of them.

But I just thought I'd say that I don't think it's right that a player you have in your training only develops 10 CA points in 7 years at the club.

Seems unrealistic.

Some players are simply busts, just like real life.

I think the problem is that there are plenty of unprofessional players who developed quicker. Look at Ben Arfa - while his career has indeed somewhat stalled, he still developed really quickly as a youngster.

Sorry I edited my post before you posted. I do realise that, thanks for the input.

It's just the fact that the PA is set in stone from the start. The PA should adjust to match the ambition, determination, the professionalism etc.

That way the players PA will lower to 140 instead of 195 and their CA goes to 110, for example.

I mean a player with a PA of 195 isn't accurate at 16. Who knows how a player will develop, what way their stats will go, especially ambition and professionalism and determination.

These could help to adjust players PAs over their youth development.

Similarly, if a player starts at 130 and they have high work rates, ambition, professionalism etc their PA could perhaps rise to 170.

I think it would make the youth system better. And you'd keep a closer eye on it too.

Sorry I edited my post before you posted. I do realise that, thanks for the input.

It's just the fact that the PA is set in stone from the start. The PA should adjust to match the ambition, determination, the professionalism etc.

That way the players PA will lower to 140 instead of 195 and their CA goes to 110, for example.

I mean a player with a PA of 195 isn't accurate at 16. Who knows how a player will develop, what way their stats will go, especially ambition and professionalism and determination.

These could help to adjust players PAs over their youth development.

Similarly, if a player starts at 130 and they have high work rates, ambition, professionalism etc their PA could perhaps rise to 170.

I think it would make the youth system better. And you'd keep a closer eye on it too.

Well PA isn't visible by normal means. There is no need for it to adjust/be dynamic because it's a hidden attribute. Remember it's just potential not a time machine that tells you exactly how the good player will be.

If you want to look at PA, you need to take into the account the other stats that you mentioned to project the player's development. It goes hand in hand so a low PA determined player with high work rate, ambition, and professionalism can sometimes turn out to be a better player than one with high PA.

It's a game mechanic in place so not every player turns into a superstar, and not every player with high potential turns into a wonderkid and some may not burst onto the scene until they are 25 or so.

Yes that is true. But I don't believe CA and PA should be hidden attributes. Managers in real life can see potential in players. I've always aruged on these forums about how bad it is to hide the PA from the user, I've said before that you should a estimate based on what your coaches think (depending how good your coches are) and the average should include your ability to bring youth players through. So you wouldn't really get an accurate reading of PAs until you've successfully brought through youth players consistently.

But that's another argument altogether.

But back to the point in hand. If you have a player that has a PA of 130, and you don't know it's 130 because it's hidden. You're not using any external reader etc. for the players to view hidden stats.

Do you not think that if the player is determined, ambitous, professional, etc. that they could infact rise above 130 for their PA.

As I said in the original Post, David Platt and Ian Wright are examples of players who blossomed late.

Some players are brilliant at 20 - 26 years of age and then drift off.

I'm just saying PA shouldn't be set in stone. And that youth training and youth players should develop more with the training you give them. But they don't.

The thing that affects the CA rating is the Determination, Work Rate, Ambition and Professionalism.

Without these, the players don't develop.

I think these stats should be dynamic, allowing some players to reach a higher CA and PA than before.

Yes that is true. But I don't believe CA and PA should be hidden attributes. Managers in real life can see potential in players. I've always aruged on these forums about how bad it is to hide the PA from the user, I've said before that you should a estimate based on what your coaches think (depending how good your coches are) and the average should include your ability to bring youth players through. So you wouldn't really get an accurate reading of PAs until you've successfully brought through youth players consistently.

But that's another argument altogether.

But back to the point in hand. If you have a player that has a PA of 130, and you don't know it's 130 because it's hidden. You're not using any external reader etc. for the players to view hidden stats.

Do you not think that if the player is determined, ambitous, professional, etc. that they could infact rise above 130 for their PA.

As I said in the original Post, David Platt and Ian Wright are examples of players who blossomed late.

Some players are brilliant at 20 - 26 years of age and then drift off.

I'm just saying PA shouldn't be set in stone. And that youth training and youth players should develop more with the training you give them. But they don't.

The thing that affects the CA rating is the Determination, Work Rate, Ambition and Professionalism.

Without these, the players don't develop.

I think these stats should be dynamic, allowing some players to reach a higher CA and PA than before.

I understand what you mean, I just think it would be a very difficult system to implement correctly so that every youth player who goes through a top system doesn't turn into a world beater.

I consider PA to be a player's God given talent; some have it and some don't. No matter how determined one might be and no matter how hard they work they just can't ever get to the level of Ronaldo, Messi, Rooney, Kaka, etc. It's the players who have that work ethic combined with natural talent who reach the elite level. Likewise you have players with the talent, but just don't have the mindset to put it to use.

The scout and coach reports already give you a good idea what a player's PA is. They can also put up red flags such as low ambition/professionalism. Managers and scouts in real life have to judge a player's potential based on their form, competition, physical attributes, and personality. They can't see a player's true potential.

The coach and scouts are the worst.

I've got the best coaches and they give players with CAs and Abilities of 180 and 85 a rating of 4 and then give players of lower CAs and Abilities a rating of 3.

Especially when looking at players outside the continent. Players with really good CA PAs and Ability and Potential Abiltiy are only give 2 - 3 stars.

I don't trust the scouts and the coaches. They never ever come back with a Top player in the youth systems, ever. They only ever recommend really good players already established.

But every single transfer window every single one of my youth players is attempted to bought, every transfer window I have roughly 150 messages to go through.

How does the computer keep picking out my best players, yet the Scouts (really good scouts) can't help me pick out other teams best youth players?

And they don't help pick out the best. The only way I can find the best is to use an external program to scout the players. Because none of the scouts I've ever had (and I've played every version of FM ) have ever recommended the top youth players.

I don't think they are all that bad. My scouts have found me some of the best players in FM10 I've seen in any version of the game. The stars are misleading because they are relative to your own squad, so if you have already have top players at every position then a future world class midfielder may only get a star rating of 2.5 or 3. I've had players who get 2.5 stars, but when I look at their attributes and the report itself it's obvious the player is on the verge of becoming a wonderkid.