How much time do you spend on Training?

As it says in the title?

How important is it to set up training routines and tactics in the game? Gone are the days where if you're 11 were better than the opposition you would win.

My point being that the game is not exactly written by Alex Ferguson, so what if my opinion of how to win a match differs from the team who put the game together.

Well Training is all about shaping and improving players in terms of attributes. It doesn't have a huge impact on Match Tactics like real life Training would. However if you want to squeeze every last ounce of capability from your squad then spending time to setup Schedules that shape your players according to what you want and need is worthwhile.

Tactics are essential.

Training is nice to have, but not as essential.

Oh good, another excuse for me to have a rant about training on FM!...

About 5 minutes setting up schedules and assigning them to players, then I never go near training again.

Given that training is one of, if not the most important part of a manager's job IRL, I'd say training is far and away the worst part of FM. So bad in fact that it's a disgrace SI have just left it to stagnate the way it is. Poor form

Oh good, another excuse for me to have a rant about training on FM!...

About 5 minutes setting up schedules and assigning them to players, then I never go near training again.

Given that training is one of, if not the most important part of a manager's job IRL, I'd say training is far and away the worst part of FM. So bad in fact that it's a disgrace SI have just left it to stagnate the way it is. Poor form

That is rather unfair. The Training system does lack almost all necessary explanation in the manual or ingame, but if you can figure out the details then it becomes an incredibly easy to use and amazingly powerful tool.

If you are struggling to understand the Training system or do not have the time to design schedules in detail, please take a look at my thread on Training.

SFrasers Training Schedules for FM10

The feedback on these schedules and the method used to construct them has been overwhelmingly positive, and the thread is meant to teach you how to construct your own as well as download my basic templates.

It is not Training that is stagnant, it is average user interest.

I disagree with you there. Sliders for training schedules are one of the silliest ideas I've ever seen in my life. SLIDERS? Just because some people have worked out how to get the best out of them doesn't mean it's a sensible system.

I've said the following before, but imagine saying to your striker:

"Right son, you're on 'Target Man' training today. Get out there and give me 9 clicks of strength training, intense attacking, high tactics and, let me see... 13 clicks of shooting"

:confused:

When you set tactical training (for example), what exactly do the players DO? It's just like the old tactics system; slider clicking, trial and error until you get it right. In short; balderdash.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=175611

The slider system for Training represents the amount of Training you give to each Training Category which contains multiple attributes. It allows you to fine tune how much each Category of attributes develops.

It is balderdash in the sense that you do not understand it. It is entireally logical, immersive and highly functional in the sense that you can fine tune how much attention to development you give to specific areas of a players game.

The previous system of Training give the user zero information as to what was actually being Trained. It offered no explanation of the relative quantities of Training each unknown set of attributes was receiving. The current system gives both, it shows what is being Trained and allows the user to select the relative quantity to be Trained.

Once you understand it, it becomes simple, functional, immersive, brilliant. The problem is that it is difficult to understand because most users jump to conclusions upon seeing the system and refuse to take the time to test their assumptions and the actual function of the system.

In an attribute based game it is necessary to be aware of what attributes you are improving and provide a mechanic allowing you to define the attributes to be improved. The current system does this, but again thanks to a lack of attention and problem solving and dare I say it imagination by the average user the system is considered broken and problematic.

Like Tactics, the Training system is likely to be overhauled in the future. Not because it does not work and is not a great system but because it requires more attention than the average target audience member is willing to give. This game is too indepth for it's target audience.

If you would like to read my thread you will discover exactly how training works and how to build your own excellent schedules. I find it unlikely that you will read it, as you would rather rant about this game than become any good at it.

I not only have little problem with the Training system, I have constructed what many others have called the best Training Schedules for FM. I have done this with zero mathematics, zero calculators, zero "holiday" testing. Only basic attention to the information contained within the game itself, reading the insights of others that are adept at this game, and a bit of problem solving was required.

If I can do this, then why can't you?

Tactics cannot be overestimated!

Traing however is hardly important. I spend 2 minutes on it after taking over a club and then it's just assignings new players to a schedule after that.

Tactics cannot be overestimated!

Traing however is hardly important. I spend 2 minutes on it after taking over a club and then it's just assignings new players to a schedule after that.

If you wish to fail that is certainly true.

Let me refer the posters in this thread to following screenshot:

A tad too much Ball Control training, but otherwise an excellent example of what can be achieved even in older players by simply paying attention to the game and taking the time to build a suitable schedule.

If you cannot do this yourself, then take a look at my Training and player attribute threads.

Correct me if I am wrong. I assume that training is of hardly any effect when it comes to whether or not a player improves/deteriorates (CA-wise that is), but it mainly serves to allocate CA points gained/lost to attributes. Right?

In that case I would stand by my claim.

I think there's a middle ground between the two arguments. I agree with SFraser when he says that what is stagnant is average user interest. But I think user interest is stagnant because training is FM is completely detached from reality and therefore not very interesting to the average user. I don't believe it's "broken", but it's definitely not attractive to the average user, even though I can appreciate how fascinating to the more logically minded amongst us the current system can be.

What I think would be a very positive step in future versions would be to relate the process to how training is developed in real life. Just as an example, instead of the abstraction of sliders defining relative weights for very broad training categories which in turn translate into attributes, maybe translate that same functionality to an interface more directly related to real life training schedules. For example, let users definite a daily training schedule containing a series of exercises or activities, each tied to different effects to different attributes at different levels. For example, instead of making players select a slider that says "aerobics training - heavy" have them develop a schedule of 30 minutes of aerobic exercise, followed by weights training and then a tactical session on monday, 1 hour of spinning, 30 minutes of yoga (mental attributes, pressure relief!), 1 hour of circuit training on tuesday, light cardio followed by a watching a video of the next opponent (tactical) on match day, etc. Each activity would carry a relative weight to attributes, modifiable by the efficiency of coaches and training facilities. You could even tie in different activities to different standards of training facilities.

To the average user, the game could come with a series of preset schedules which would work fine. But in a system like this the more dedicated users would have the option to delve very deeply into training, the difference being that the interface is much more appealing and relatable, not to mention it could be even more complex to balance than it is today. So you can have the best of both worlds.

In conclusion, while I don't agree that the current system is "broken", I think it could be vastly improved if it was made not easier, but more relatable and fun to use.

Tactics cannot be overestimated!

Traing however is hardly important. I spend 2 minutes on it after taking over a club and then it's just assignings new players to a schedule after that.

Thats all I do. More than 2 minutes, more like 20 for me.

Yeah, i spend ages on tactics, but Tugs solves 99% of my training issues .

If I can do this, then why can't you?

Because it's not even remotely close to what managers do on the training pitch IRL. In fact, it's just about as far-removed as possible without training on Pluto.

I don't want to fanny around with sliders and no amount of evidence that 'they work' will convince me otherwise. I want training drills and exercises that have names and explanations, both for what they are and what they are likely to achieve (given the right coaches and time dedicated to them). I'd also like to introduce specialist diets for my players as well as gym work (as happens IRL).

Even going back to the FM05 system but having more exact (and determinable) results. Even though it was essentially the same system underneath the drills and schedules, it still made a hell of a lot more sense.

I very very rarely use training, only if I remember to implement it.

Training? That's why I pay those pesky coaches and assistant manager. To sort it out.

Me? I'd probably end up enginering scheddules that'd sink my team quicker than that Iceberg made the Titanic go down.

Because it's not even remotely close to what managers do on the training pitch IRL. In fact, it's just about as far-removed as possible without training on Pluto.

I don't want to fanny around with sliders and no amount of evidence that 'they work' will convince me otherwise. I want training drills and exercises that have names and explanations, both for what they are and what they are likely to achieve (given the right coaches and time dedicated to them). I'd also like to introduce specialist diets for my players as well as gym work (as happens IRL).

Even going back to the FM05 system but having more exact (and determinable) results. Even though it was essentially the same system underneath the drills and schedules, it still made a hell of a lot more sense.

I agree that, on the face of it, a slider system is incredibly unrealistic.

However, really, it's just a simpler way of organising how training would be done anyway.

Effectively, you're saying "strikers: spend a lot of time on shooting drills, some time on passing drills, a little time on set pieces, a lot of time working on speed and agility, a fair amount of time in the gym working on strength, a fair amount of time on your movement, decision making, and so on, but don't bother practicing your goalkeeping or defending.

Centre backs: work really hard on your tackling, marking, and such; also spend a lot of time working on your concentration, decision making and positioning. Don't bother with any shooting practise, or passing drills. Do a bit of work on heading, and if you've got any time left over, spend it in the gym, but don't overexert yourselves."

It's much the same as tactics. You're not saying "17 passing!", you're saying "direct passing", or "express yourselves!", or "don't rush".

I agree that, on the face of it, a slider system is incredibly unrealistic.

However, really, it's just a simpler way of organising how training would be done anyway.

Effectively, you're saying "strikers: spend a lot of time on shooting drills, some time on passing drills, a little time on set pieces, a lot of time working on speed and agility, a fair amount of time in the gym working on strength, a fair amount of time on your movement, decision making, and so on, but don't bother practicing your goalkeeping or defending.

Centre backs: work really hard on your tackling, marking, and such; also spend a lot of time working on your concentration, decision making and positioning. Don't bother with any shooting practise, or passing drills. Do a bit of work on heading, and if you've got any time left over, spend it in the gym, but don't overexert yourselves."

It's much the same as tactics. You're not saying "17 passing!", you're saying "direct passing", or "express yourselves!", or "don't rush".

Exactly.

Because it's not even remotely close to what managers do on the training pitch IRL. In fact, it's just about as far-removed as possible without training on Pluto.

I don't want to fanny around with sliders and no amount of evidence that 'they work' will convince me otherwise. I want training drills and exercises that have names and explanations, both for what they are and what they are likely to achieve (given the right coaches and time dedicated to them). I'd also like to introduce specialist diets for my players as well as gym work (as happens IRL).

Even going back to the FM05 system but having more exact (and determinable) results. Even though it was essentially the same system underneath the drills and schedules, it still made a hell of a lot more sense.

The fact you fail to understand training does not concern me. The fact you publicly whinge about it does.

You need to realise that you are wrong when you say training is broken and unrealistic, and you are right when you say it is difficult to comprehend.

The fact you do not understand Training does not mean it is broken. In all honesty that judgement can only be made by people that understand Training.

You don't understand it and you think it is unrealistic and broken, I do understand it and I think it is amazingly immersive and highly functional. The only thing we both agree on is that it is difficult to understand.

If you think I don't understand it and that I am making stuff up, please try my Training schedules for a season.

It is not Training that is stagnant, it is average user interest.

There are a lot of issues with training. And I honestly think SI will do something about the module next year. Blaming user interest for a module that is poorly designed is hopefully not the way SI see it...

There are a lot of issues with training. And I honestly think SI will do something about the module next year. Blaming user interest for a module that is poorly designed is hopefully not the way SI see it...

That's the problem. The module is not poorly designed.

i would love to see the training overhauled...........i want the option to be able to run traing drills in a 3d match situation;)

..where you could show players where to make runs/pass ball

where corners should be aimed

free kick as above

overload attack/defence drills:thup:

5 a side training games............so many options could be here all day

might not be for everyone some just like to play a full game with little input into training/tactics.............thats thier privelege, same as those who edit the clubs to max stats/or give themselves a trillion quid and then brag they have won the lot:rolleyes:

not for me but each to thier own

but I believe this is an enjoyable/essential part of the game and could be vastly improved in future versions

That's the problem. The module is not poorly designed.

Well the user interface certainly is, so much so that people still wonder what attributes fall into which category because it's hidden away in player profiles... and even then the user interface is unclear (concentration, composure, reflexes etc.)

The fact we recieve more feedback from the Physio than Coachers is poor as well.

Having said that, I am enjoying creating my own schedules this year... but it does need tidying up for he majority. The amount of work you inparticular have had to do to understand training to your level surely justifies that?

I think the main issue really is that most managers won't really want to be fully immersed in training - that's what the coaches for. It's more that the manager sets targets or guidelines and the coaches go back and do what he says.

Some users would like to micromanage everything fully though, of course.

Warning: Brain dump follows

Things I think we could use:

Weekly training updates

Your coaches provide a summary of the training results perhaps every week. We do get the top 3 performers and worst 3 performers but we need more information.

"Wayne Rooney has been really working on his heading this week as he doesn't feel he's scoring enough headed goals." [Options: Tell Rooney to continue/tell Rooney to stop as he is better with his feet]

"Kieron Dyer looks nervous during training as he is coming back from multiple injuries and doesn't want to get injured again." [Options: Fine/discipline Dyer/Talk to Dyer/Let him keep going and see if he gets better]

"Cristiano Ronaldo is being really selfish during training as he's on his own training schedule [more on this later]. Guti and Diarra have stopped passing to him as a result." [Options: Tell Ronaldo to stop doing that/Change Ronaldo's training schedule/Tell Guti and Diarra to pass to Ronaldo more often/Leave them alone]

Training drills

We should be able to set general training schedules perhaps weekly or monthly. For example, in pre-season, you'd put more focus on fitness training. Otherwise you should be able to set things like gym sessions, practice matches, passing training, etc. This may be boring to some and some users may hate it which is why there should be an option for your assistant manager/coaching staff to do it all themselves, with (something sorely lacking in the current version) lots of preset schedules.

Schedules don't have to be daily schedules - that was in the old versions of EA's Total Club Manager (c. 2005). Something like weekly sliders would seem fair.

Training schedules should have the following:

Seasonal training - You can set seasonal targets for your players here - long-term training targets. For example, you may wish (for some reason) want to tell Jamie Carragher to develop PPM "Shoots from distance", or "Get your Flair up to 10". There should also be team targets - for example, you may want your team to develop a solid level of fitness as you are odds on to be promoted the next season and want to ensure they're fit enough for the next level. Setting too many targets, however, can demoralise some players and can overwork players. It may also hurt the normal development of players ("Jamie Carragher is focusing so much on his Flair, his defensive abilities have plummeted").

Weekly training - Your main training starts here. You can mess around with various sliders to quickly change, say, the weekly training intensity is (lower it when you have fixture congestion, raise it in pre-season, lower it if you are getting too many injuries, etc.); teamwork training (useful if your team is a bunch of selfish players); individual training (more useful for youngsters, for example) and resting (may be useful if you come through a set of very difficult fixtures and have a relatively free week). It applies as a global setting and can be overridden per player (i.e. you wouldn't want Owen Hargreaves to be on the same training schedule as Park Ji-Sung). Your assistant/coaching staff should be able to do it automatically but you can override anything. For example, you could get the following news item per week:

Mike Phelan has asked how you would like training to proceed this week. He notes you have 3 fixtures against title rivals Chelsea, Arsenal and Liverpool this week and a number of your squad are slightly tired. He recommends:

- Low intensity training throughout the week |====||======| (Slider at around 8)

- Lots of rest for tired players |=========||=| (Slider at around 19)

- Rafael and Patrice Evra have not had a game for about a week. They should be placed on a higher intensity training schedule than the rest of the squad as they can afford to train harder. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Gabriel Obertan has been fairly selfish during training last week and has been for a while now. He should be involved in more practice matches and team moves. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Mame Biram Diouf is struggling with the language barrier in training. Pairing him with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer's training group would help. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Owen Hargreaves is returning from a serious injury but won't be ready for any games this week. As he's still coming back from injury, we recommend putting him on a minimal training schedule. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Wayne Rooney, coming back from injury, should not be risked for the Chelsea match despite approaching full fitness. Rooney should be placed on a light but dedicated fitness schedule to get him ready for the Arsenal and Liverpool games instead. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Michael Owen is back to near-full fitness and we can put him back in normal training. [ Select training group ] [ Leave alone ]

You may wish to set manual training instructions for these players at or near full fitness:

Patrice Evra (100%), Rafael (100%), Jonny Evans (99%), Darren Fletcher (99%), Michael Carrick (97%), Dimitar Berbatov (96%)

You may wish to set manual training instructions for these players at low fitness:

Owen Hargreaves (40%), Wayne Rooney (60%), John O'Shea (88%)

The current training intensity is: |========||==| Intensity

So you now play Chelsea and thrash them 10-0. You get the following training news item right after the match:

Mike Phelan is pleased with the win. He notes that:

- As a whole, the squad is slightly tired. With a game coming up on Thursday and Sunday, he recommends giving the squad light training for Tuesday before returning to normal training Wednesday. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Rafael is exhausted from setting up 10 goals. He recommends giving Rafael tomorrow off training and returning him to light training Wednesday. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Dimitar Berbatov is at full fitness as he did not do much running against Chelsea. He recommends keeping Berbatov at normal training levels. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Wayne Rooney is raring to play, but we recommend he only return to normal training on Wednesday. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

You then demolish Liverpool 4-0. You receive the following after the match:

Mike Phelan is pleased with the win. He notes that:

- As a whole, the squad is tired. With a game coming up on Sunday, he recommends giving the squad light training for Tuesday before returning to normal training Wednesday. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Rafael did not get enough rest before the match. He recommends giving Rafael full rest before the Arsenal game. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Dimitar Berbatov is at full fitness as he did not do much running against Liverpool. He recommends keeping Berbatov at normal training levels. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Michael Carrick picked up a knock but will be fine for the Arsenal game. We recommend leaving Carrick out of fitness training for the rest of the week, however. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

You then pull off a 1-1 draw with Arsenal. Phelan pings you again:

Mike Phelan is pleased with the draw given the tough week. He notes that:

- The squad is tired. We recommend giving Rafael, Evra, Nani, Valencia, Rooney, Fletcher and Ferdinand tomorrow off and light training for Evans, Carrick, van der Sar and O'Shea. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Dimitar Berbatov is at full fitness as he did not do much running against Arsenal. He recommends keeping Berbatov at normal training levels. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

- Magnus Eikrem being placed on the bench may spur him on in training. We recommend keeping an eye on him in training. [ Agree ] [ Leave alone ] [ Manual change ]

And of course you get your weekly training report.

Mike Phelan has a weekly training report:

- Wayne Rooney and Park Ji-Sung have worked very hard this week. [ Praise ]

- Oliver Norwood seems hungry for first-team action after a League Cup game, and his training has been impressive this week. [ Praise ] [ Keep an eye out ]

- Dimitar Berbatov has not trained very hard this week at all. [ Discipline ] [ Talk ]

- Zoran Tošić looks disillusioned in training and hasn't impressed this week. [ Discipline ] [ Talk ]

Training schedules should be roughly along the lines of the attributes. For example, there could be sliders for each attribute dictating how much you want to develop that attribute. An overall slider somewhere tells you how much you are working the players and there should be plenty of presets. Some may be groupable - i.e. perhaps Free Kick Taking and Corners, or Passing and Crossing. Some are generally untrainable - i.e. Determination, Bravery and Influence.

Training should be grouped between coaching staff. For example, you could have Mike Phelan working with the centre-backs and he will be responsible for those players' training. However, Phelan cannot cater specifically to everyone's training schedules that much (imagine telling Ferdinand to stop Marking training 15 minutes earlier than the rest, for example) - so Phelan will try and average out in some way the training schedules of the players under his control so perhaps the specific passing training you give to Jonny Evans will not be fully carried out but Phelan will try and accommodate Evans as much as possible.

So perhaps a 1:1 player:coach ratio is best? Other than wage considerations, this can lead to a fractured team as the players do not train together. Your assistant will recommend how many coaches you may wish to have and also recommends certain training group sizes. You can assign multiple coaches to certain groups to lower the amount of work and allows the individual training, such as Evans's specific passing training, to be more concentrated. Too many coaches spoil the broth however, and if a coach has little to do he will become disillusioned and may start making noises about a new challenge.

There should be squad-wide training activities of course, or perhaps just across certain training groups. For example, during the week, Phelan may bring together the midfielders and defenders for set-piece training while the strikers train by themselves, or may bring the whole squad together for practice matches. On a player's training tab, we should be able to see something like:

Michael Carrick is on the training schedule "Midfielders". He is with Mike Phelan's training group.

He will be playing in 2 practice matches this week.

He will be part of a set-piece drill with himself and Rene Meulensteen's training group.

These "drills" should also be assignable. On the training screen, for example, we could set intensities of the following:

Set-piece drills

Last-third passing (perhaps just midfielders and strikers)

Offside trap (offensive) (wingers, strikers)

Offside trap (defensive) (centre-backs, full-backs)

Counter-attacks

...

It will be a good idea to set these moderately high to keep squad teamwork and harmony high as the players will be training together. Conversely, if there are few coaches at a lower level, individual skills are at a premium so these may be kept lower.

I suspect this may be a little nasty though as it is very fiddly. A straight split between team/individual training may be better.

----

The most important overall thing is that we have plenty more options but the assistant manager can do it all for you, leaving you to interfere whenever you want to. There should be many, many presets - even until now, SI hasn't provided us with training templates to use! It should be easy to use and there should be plenty of feedback.

I'll see if I can mock something up later.

I think the main issue really is that most managers won't really want to be fully immersed in training - that's what the coaches for. It's more that the manager sets targets or guidelines and the coaches go back and do what he says.

Some users would like to micromanage everything fully though, of course.

Warning: Brain dump follows

Things I think we could use:

Weekly training updates

Your coaches provide a summary of the training results perhaps every week. We do get the top 3 performers and worst 3 performers but we need more information.

"Wayne Rooney has been really working on his heading this week as he doesn't feel he's scoring enough headed goals." [Options: Tell Rooney to continue/tell Rooney to stop as he is better with his feet]

"Kieron Dyer looks nervous during training as he is coming back from multiple injuries and doesn't want to get injured again." [Options: Fine/discipline Dyer/Talk to Dyer/Let him keep going and see if he gets better]

"Cristiano Ronaldo is being really selfish during training as he's on his own training schedule [more on this later]. Guti and Diarra have stopped passing to him as a result." [Options: Tell Ronaldo to stop doing that/Change Ronaldo's training schedule/Tell Guti and Diarra to pass to Ronaldo more often/Leave them alone]

Training drills

We should be able to set general training schedules perhaps weekly or monthly. For example, in pre-season, you'd put more focus on fitness training. Otherwise you should be able to set things like gym sessions, practice matches, passing training, etc. This may be boring to some and some users may hate it which is why there should be an option for your assistant manager/coaching staff to do it all themselves, with (something sorely lacking in the current version) lots of preset schedules.

Schedules don't have to be daily schedules - that was in the old versions of EA's Total Club Manager (c. 2005). Something like weekly sliders would seem fair.

Training schedules should have the following:

Seasonal training - You can set seasonal targets for your players here - long-term training targets. For example, you may wish (for some reason) want to tell Jamie Carragher to develop PPM "Shoots from distance", or "Get your Flair up to 10". There should also be team targets - for example, you may want your team to develop a solid level of fitness as you are odds on to be promoted the next season and want to ensure they're fit enough for the next level. Setting too many targets, however, can demoralise some players and can overwork players. It may also hurt the normal development of players ("Jamie Carragher is focusing so much on his Flair, his defensive abilities have plummeted").

Weekly training - Your main training starts here. You can mess around with various sliders to quickly change, say, the weekly training intensity is (lower it when you have fixture congestion, raise it in pre-season, lower it if you are getting too many injuries, etc.); teamwork training (useful if your team is a bunch of selfish players); individual training (more useful for youngsters, for example) and resting (may be useful if you come through a set of very difficult fixtures and have a relatively free week). It applies as a global setting and can be overridden per player (i.e. you wouldn't want Owen Hargreaves to be on the same training schedule as Park Ji-Sung). Your assistant/coaching staff should be able to do it automatically but you can override anything. For example, you could get the following news item per week:

So you now play Chelsea and thrash them 10-0. You get the following training news item right after the match:

You then demolish Liverpool 4-0. You receive the following after the match:

You then pull off a 1-1 draw with Arsenal. Phelan pings you again:

And of course you get your weekly training report.

Training schedules should be roughly along the lines of the attributes. For example, there could be sliders for each attribute dictating how much you want to develop that attribute. An overall slider somewhere tells you how much you are working the players and there should be plenty of presets. Some may be groupable - i.e. perhaps Free Kick Taking and Corners, or Passing and Crossing. Some are generally untrainable - i.e. Determination, Bravery and Influence.

Training should be grouped between coaching staff. For example, you could have Mike Phelan working with the centre-backs and he will be responsible for those players' training. However, Phelan cannot cater specifically to everyone's training schedules that much (imagine telling Ferdinand to stop Marking training 15 minutes earlier than the rest, for example) - so Phelan will try and average out in some way the training schedules of the players under his control so perhaps the specific passing training you give to Jonny Evans will not be fully carried out but Phelan will try and accommodate Evans as much as possible.

So perhaps a 1:1 player:coach ratio is best? Other than wage considerations, this can lead to a fractured team as the players do not train together. Your assistant will recommend how many coaches you may wish to have and also recommends certain training group sizes. You can assign multiple coaches to certain groups to lower the amount of work and allows the individual training, such as Evans's specific passing training, to be more concentrated. Too many coaches spoil the broth however, and if a coach has little to do he will become disillusioned and may start making noises about a new challenge.

There should be squad-wide training activities of course, or perhaps just across certain training groups. For example, during the week, Phelan may bring together the midfielders and defenders for set-piece training while the strikers train by themselves, or may bring the whole squad together for practice matches. On a player's training tab, we should be able to see something like:

These "drills" should also be assignable. On the training screen, for example, we could set intensities of the following:

Set-piece drills

Last-third passing (perhaps just midfielders and strikers)

Offside trap (offensive) (wingers, strikers)

Offside trap (defensive) (centre-backs, full-backs)

Counter-attacks

...

It will be a good idea to set these moderately high to keep squad teamwork and harmony high as the players will be training together. Conversely, if there are few coaches at a lower level, individual skills are at a premium so these may be kept lower.

I suspect this may be a little nasty though as it is very fiddly. A straight split between team/individual training may be better.

----

The most important overall thing is that we have plenty more options but the assistant manager can do it all for you, leaving you to interfere whenever you want to. There should be many, many presets - even until now, SI hasn't provided us with training templates to use! It should be easy to use and there should be plenty of feedback.

I'll see if I can mock something up later.

Fantastic ..............love what you have said above:D

great post well constructed and would be spot on in next version of the game:thup:

and as a Utd fan if only those results would happen too would be perfect...........

I haven't read the whole of this thread because some of the posts are huge and I'm far too lazy to read it, but the gist/jist seems to be that training isn't too important? Last season I let in loads of goals.. Scored loads too so thought I'd focus on the defence and tried to keep the same strikers. I based my training on the defence side where the "Workload" overall is just short of Hard. I haven't let in any goals in the first 3 games so I think it makes a difference? Or it's because I bought in Stuart Taylor..!

More like you download Tug's Training, put all your players into correct categories and forget about it until a youngster turns professional or you get your new batch of regens (and then repeat).

It's:

- Pointless

- Difficult - we need to know ridiculous mathematical formulae to get 5 stars

- Illogical - Passing is not an "Attacking" attribute by any means

The only thing you really need to do is get 5* in all the categories and since SI provide no way to tell how to do so, it is simply a rather useless feature.

Dimitar Berbatov did not do much running...

*titter*

Beat Liverpool 4-0...

Dream on, that's our guaranteed 6 points every season

Exactly.

The fact you fail to understand training does not concern me. The fact you publicly whinge? about it does.

You need to realise that you are wrong when you say training is broken? and unrealistic, and you are right when you say it is difficult to comprehend.

The fact you do not understand Training does not mean it is broken?. In all honesty that judgement can only be made by people that understand Training.

You don't understand it and you think it is unrealistic and broken?, I do understand it and I think it is amazingly immersive and highly functional. The only thing we both agree on is that it is difficult to understand.

If you think I don't understand it and that I am making stuff up, please try my Training schedules for a season.

:confused:

This is all a bit pompous, don't you think? I'm not publicly winging*, nor did I say it was 'broken' (please find that part because I forgot where I typed it), I'm stating that it's totally unrealistic, which it is.

*fwiw, I prefer to call it 'ranting'

- Illogical - Passing is not an "Attacking" attribute by any means

Its more "Attacking" than it is Strength, Aerobic, Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Shooting or Set Pieces, so by a very easy process of elimination it must be in Attacking. I agree about the coaches/stars, but I think this is just silly really.

Its more "Attacking" than it is Strength, Aerobic, Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control, Defending, Shooting or Set Pieces, so by a very easy process of elimination it must be in Attacking. I agree about the coaches/stars, but I think this is just silly really.

I don't know really - passing is orthogonal to every single class as passing is integral to the game. There's defensive passing and passing is part of tactics.

In addition, Crossing is dictated by set-pieces (but I don't want Wes Brown to practice free-kicks!). Aerobic training develops all aerobic attributes but I may only want to make the player fitter, not waste CA points by getting quicker. Arguably "cardiovascular" training would be better as it develops stamina and natural fitness, leaving "pace" training to develop acceleration, pace and possibly agility, for example.

I don't know really - passing is orthogonal to every single class as passing is integral to the game. There's defensive passing and passing is part of tactics.

In addition, Crossing is dictated by set-pieces (but I don't want Wes Brown to practice free-kicks!). Aerobic training develops all aerobic attributes but I may only want to make the player fitter, not waste CA points by getting quicker. Arguably "cardiovascular" training would be better as it develops stamina and natural fitness, leaving "pace" training to develop acceleration, pace and possibly agility, for example.

the wes brown quote says it all:thup:

current training is a mish mash and needs a big revamp

there are some great ideas here and S.I. should take note..................and bring some of them into FM11;)

What I think would be a very positive step in future versions would be to relate the process to how training is developed in real life. Just as an example, instead of the abstraction of sliders defining relative weights for very broad training categories which in turn translate into attributes, maybe translate that same functionality to an interface more directly related to real life training schedules. For example, let users definite a daily training schedule containing a series of exercises or activities, each tied to different effects to different attributes at different levels. For example, instead of making players select a slider that says "aerobics training - heavy" have them develop a schedule of 30 minutes of aerobic exercise, followed by weights training and then a tactical session on monday, 1 hour of spinning, 30 minutes of yoga (mental attributes, pressure relief!), 1 hour of circuit training on tuesday, light cardio followed by a watching a video of the next opponent (tactical) on match day, etc. Each activity would carry a relative weight to attributes, modifiable by the efficiency of coaches and training facilities. You could even tie in different activities to different standards of training facilities.

I am sure they had something similar to this on FM05 (i think) and i don't think it really worked all that well either.

More like you download Tug's Training, put all your players into correct categories and forget about it until a youngster turns professional or you get your new batch of regens (and then repeat).

This is pretty much sums up what i do with training.

I have 7 pre-set training schedules, takes 5 minutes to assign players to each one. Definitely better than leaving every player on general.

I have 4 custom schedules , GK, DF, MF, ST. Once players are assigned to them depending on role I won't touch them anymore apart a small correction once per season. That's all.

That's the problem. The module is not poorly designed.

If it's not poorly designed, how come the majority of the users think so?

That is practically the definition of bad design. If the users don't "get it" it is poorly designed.

ive never touched the training to complicated for me lol

If it's not poorly designed, how come the majority of the users think so?

That is practically the definition of bad design. If the users don't "get it" it is poorly designed.

The majority of users think it is poorly designed because the system does not function exactly like their initial assumptions, and many of the underlying variables that govern player attribute growth independant of the Training system are poorly explained.

For example many users think that Training alone boosts player Ability (CA) which is false. It is a logical assumption to make, but unfortunately it is not true. The game is not that simple.

Many users consider equal slider notches in a schedule to give the same level of training to each Category which is true, but again many users fail to consider the number of attributes per Category meaning that equal levels of training per category does not result in equal levels of training for each attribute.

Many users simply do not know that a players preferred position changes the amount of CA required for different attributes to increase. Many users are unaware that Physical Attributes actually do decline with Age while being easier to improve in youngsters. Many users are unaware that Mental Attributes are easier to increase with Age while being harder to improve in youngsters. The 2 second "Tip" when processing matches displaying this information is VITAL knowledge that is poorly displayed.

Many users simply have no idea that Coach attributes matter. They may have an idea that the play a role, but do not know what attributes play a role and what role is played.

In short we have a Training system where Coach ability matters, where different players improve different attributes at different rates, where players themselves alter their pattern of development with age. We have a system where users can target key categories of attributes but have no idea how to judge the balance of a schedule.

It is a powerful, deep, robust, functional and highly realistic and immersive system of developing and moulding players. Individual players have individual patterns of growth and decline. Individual coaches have their own individual impact on the effects of training categories. Schedules themselves modify player morale and player condition. Coaches can have good or bad relationships with players. Players personalities impact their growth/decline rates as well as impacting their training performances under certain coaches with certain personalites.

The design of the system in terms of how it works is brilliant. The design of the system in terms of ease of use and ability to understand and immerse yourself in these details is terrible.

This ease of use and freedom of explanation of immersive gameplay elements is a common and widespread issue in Football Manager. It doesn't begin and end with Training, it exists in Teamtalks which are another cunningly designed, excellent functional and realistic system of zero explanation.

The bottom line is that each "element" of the game is not so much a unique feature as they are slightly different versions of each other. Training and Teamtalks are no more and no less than modified versions of the Match Engine with different initial variables taken into account and different outcomes described. A Teamtalk or a Training Schedule is like a Match Event where multiple attributes and values and modifiers define a particular situation and the attributes of the player in question interact to produce a specific outcome. Granted they are watered down versions using different attributes, but it is still exactly the same fundamental code.

If Training is poorly designed then the entire game is poorly designed. The only real difference between Training and everything else is how you apply particular conditions. In reality it is teamtalks and player interaction that are the odd ones out of the familly, where instead of sliders defining a range of conditions you have instead a series of multiple choice options defining specific conditions.

Any future system will still work in exactly the same fundamental way. The manager will select a series of conditions, then attributes and code will get to work producing an outcome based on these conditions.

The problem with suggestions like "drills" etc. is that the game has limited support for improving specific actions or moves etc. The game does not support the ability to improve specific routines of moves and actions. Perhaps this is something worth looking at in the future, but it would be a huge development to the basic engine of the entire game.

"Right son, you're on 'Target Man' training today. Get out there and give me 9 clicks of strength training, intense attacking, high tactics and, let me see... 13 clicks of shooting"

Well, you know, until someone develops the technology so we can have a chat with our make believe target man and he can interpret everything we say and put it in to action, then sliders and numbers are what we have to represent that conversation.

I have more sympathy with the argument when it comes to tactical sliders, because I think a 20-notch slider is far more control than a real-life manager could express to a player in words. The tactical wizard has succeeded in some respects in replacing most of the 20-notch sliders with a set of multiple-choice decisions to make, that then produces that output for you.

With training, the basis is always going to be sharing out a limited amount of time between various tasks, and I'd imagine the level of planning and detail involved with player routines at top-flight clubs is quite slider-like in terms of precision

Well, you know, until someone develops the technology so we can have a chat with our make believe target man and he can interpret everything we say and put it in to action, then sliders and numbers are what we have to represent that conversation.

I have more sympathy with the argument when it comes to tactical sliders, because I think a 20-notch slider is far more control than a real-life manager could express to a player in words. The tactical wizard has succeeded in some respects in replacing most of the 20-notch sliders with a set of multiple-choice decisions to make, that then produces that output for you.

With training, the basis is always going to be sharing out a limited amount of time between various tasks, and I'd imagine the level of planning and detail involved with player routines at top-flight clubs is quite slider-like in terms of precision

It is a case of designing the level of control so that the outcome is realistic rather than input being realistic. This is where games like CM etc. fail so badly.

Consider the Set Piece training in CM. The input seems highly realistic compared to FM, but the outcome and results were absolutely terrible.

Personally speaking I think this is the source of the problem with the average users appreciation of FM. The input doesn't seem realistic to them so they find it incredibly difficult to interprate the outcome, which is highly realistic.

Take Teamtalks as an example. The input is bland, repetative and doesn't say much of interest. You cannot type in precisely what you want to say and have players respond. However the output is a variety of reactions ranging from Nervous to Complacent to Fired Up.

The input seems unrealistic, the realism of the output is what the system is all about. Getting the desired reaction and seeing it have an impact on the pitch.

Many users consider equal slider notches in a schedule to give the same level of training to each Category which is true, but again many users fail to consider the number of attributes per Category meaning that equal levels of training per category does not result in equal levels of training for each attribute.

Of all your observations, that's probably the best, despite the simplicity.

I think any change to the system would be a change of clothes, and would probably not actually help that much. Much like team talks, and indeed further improvements to tactics, it would take genuine AI, and that's decades or more away, and even further before it becomes available commercially.

x42bn6: I do think that the "attacking" group needs a name change, probably to "passing", and it should include crossing.

Of all your observations, that's probably the best, despite the simplicity.

I think any change to the system would be a change of clothes, and would probably not actually help that much. Much like team talks, and indeed further improvements to tactics, it would take genuine AI, and that's decades or more away, and even further before it becomes available commercially.

x42bn6: I do think that the "attacking" group needs a name change, probably to "passing", and it should include crossing.

The simple things, when you do not jump to conclusions and simply pay attention to what is on the screen, are often the most powerful and useful of things to know.

You don't have to understand Age related attribute gain/decay in detail nor know that position related attributes require more or less CA. If you have misunderstood the basic information on the screen you will always build dodgy schedules.

If you have not misunderstood the basic information, you will find everything else out, even the most complex of hidden details, through experience and trial and error.

Why training is bad from a UI perspective:

1) We don't know what a "decent" schedule is. SI provide zero documentation or hints on what it means to be "light" training. They provide no hints to as what training load refers to and what is too much/too little.

2) It takes ages to create your own schedule.

3) There is zero feedback from your coaches on how good a schedule is. Mike Phelan never tells you that a player who has muscles of titanium can work harder. Tony Strudwick (Manchester United fitness coach) never tells you that you should be doing more physical training during pre-season.

4) The only "feedback" you get are green arrows and even then they are too sparse to compare training schedules. It's like comparing the speeds of two snails over several kilometres by sending them out one at a time, without measuring equipment.

5) SI provide zero documentation on how the star ratings work for coaches. You basically pull out a calculator based on some formulae worked out by someone on the forums. Assuming this user knows about the forums of course. Then the coaches get poached and unsettled so often.

6) SI provide zero documentation on the effects of first-team coaches, coaches and youth coaches - does a coach devote 50-50 to first-team and youth?

7) SI provide zero documentation on the uses of fitness coaches. Is a coach who does the same training (strength + aerobic) and gets 5 stars for both equally good as a fitness coach with 5 stars for both?

8) SI provide zero template training schedules for users to look at and use to make their own training schedules. This means a lot of users simply download someone else's as it is so tedious to set them up.

9) Not quite training but related: SI provide zero documentation on how many physios are good and whether you need more than one at all.

This is one of the broad categories why training is horrible. SFraser, you may have "cracked" training, but Joe Average isn't going to be able to do it without pouring over spreadsheets and forum hyperbole. Joe Average doesn't want to do that either.

Me? I don't believe in scrapping over 2-3 points personally. However, I would like Phelan to tell me how to set up training, how to improve it and perhaps even automatically do it himself.

Why training is bad from a UI perspective:

4) The only "feedback" you get are green arrows and even then they are too sparse to compare training schedules. It's like comparing the speeds of two snails over several kilometres by sending them out one at a time, without measuring equipment.

5) SI provide zero documentation on how the star ratings work for coaches. You basically pull out a calculator based on some formulae worked out by someone on the forums. Assuming this user knows about the forums of course. Then the coaches get poached and unsettled so often.

6) SI provide zero documentation on the effects of first-team coaches, coaches and youth coaches - does a coach devote 50-50 to first-team and youth?

7) SI provide zero documentation on the uses of fitness coaches. Is a coach who does the same training (strength + aerobic) and gets 5 stars for both equally good as a fitness coach with 5 stars for both?

9) Not quite training but related: SI provide zero documentation on how many physios are good and whether you need more than one at all.

I strongly agree with 5+6+9, quite strongly with 7, and merely agree with 4. All those need fixing.

Here's the thing - there shouldn't be a way to 'crack' training.

It should ideally be a series of choices which (a) are clearly defined and easy to understand, (b) each carry their own advantages and disadvantages and © reflect your (or the AI managers') footballing philosophy and fits in to some extent with your tactical approach.

As I said before, if I'm the sort of manager who values raw strength, stamina and speed above all else, I'm going to spend a lot of my training sessions on that (at the expense of technical and perhaps tactical skills); and I'm quite likely to set up my tactics to reflect that, by let's say playing a very direct style of football with lots and lots of closing down.

If I value technical skills above all else, I'll spend most of my time on that, meaning my players may not be quite as strong or fit, and I'll maybe play a shorter passing game with less crossing but more creative freedom, with less closing down.

Why training is bad from a UI perspective:

1) We don't know what a "decent" schedule is. SI provide zero documentation or hints on what it means to be "light" training. They provide no hints to as what training load refers to and what is too much/too little.

2) It takes ages to create your own schedule.

3) There is zero feedback from your coaches on how good a schedule is. Mike Phelan never tells you that a player who has muscles of titanium can work harder. Tony Strudwick (Manchester United fitness coach) never tells you that you should be doing more physical training during pre-season.

4) The only "feedback" you get are green arrows and even then they are too sparse to compare training schedules. It's like comparing the speeds of two snails over several kilometres by sending them out one at a time, without measuring equipment.

5) SI provide zero documentation on how the star ratings work for coaches. You basically pull out a calculator based on some formulae worked out by someone on the forums. Assuming this user knows about the forums of course. Then the coaches get poached and unsettled so often.

6) SI provide zero documentation on the effects of first-team coaches, coaches and youth coaches - does a coach devote 50-50 to first-team and youth?

7) SI provide zero documentation on the uses of fitness coaches. Is a coach who does the same training (strength + aerobic) and gets 5 stars for both equally good as a fitness coach with 5 stars for both?

8) SI provide zero template training schedules for users to look at and use to make their own training schedules. This means a lot of users simply download someone else's as it is so tedious to set them up.

9) Not quite training but related: SI provide zero documentation on how many physios are good and whether you need more than one at all.

This is one of the broad categories why training is horrible. SFraser, you may have "cracked" training, but Joe Average isn't going to be able to do it without pouring over spreadsheets and forum hyperbole. Joe Average doesn't want to do that either.

Me? I don't believe in scrapping over 2-3 points personally. However, I would like Phelan to tell me how to set up training, how to improve it and perhaps even automatically do it himself.

While you are quite correct that SI do not provide anywhere near enough information on what means what and how things work, Joe Average doesn't have to "crack" training. If Joe Average is having such a hard time figuring out how to train his players then Joe Average can avoid doing all the hardwork of finding this out for himself and read guides like the ones you can find in the Tactics and Training Tips forum.

Obviously this stuff is not impossible to figure out or no one would have figured it out. It might be hard but that is still not impossible, it might be too hard for the average user and I can fully appreciate this fact without being condescending.

However that does not mean that there are no guides, no information, no details, no threads and no posts giving you precisely the information you require.

You could have all this information if you wanted. If you don't have this information and it is posted two clicks away then you have no excuse.

You could have all this information if you wanted. If you don't have this information and it is posted two clicks away then you have no excuse.

I see a game as just that - a game. The game should not have to live on too many external things like things in the forum.

Some may never realise there is an official forum or even unofficial forums out there. Some may simply look at the online manual and go, "Huh?"

Yes the material is two clicks away but the point is that it shouldn't be. The game should provide feedback (a key UI quality measure) and plenty of documentation such as the help system or in the manual. We should not need to resort to fan-researched material which lacks authority which an SI document does. A user should not have to jump through so many loops simply to get unofficial information about a feature. This is the problem with training and still, to a limited extent, tactics.

I see a game as just that - a game. The game should not have to live on too many external things like things in the forum.

Some may never realise there is an official forum or even unofficial forums out there. Some may simply look at the online manual and go, "Huh?"

Yes the material is two clicks away but the point is that it shouldn't be. The game should provide feedback (a key UI quality measure) and plenty of documentation such as the help system or in the manual. We should not need to resort to fan-researched material which lacks authority which an SI document does. A user should not have to jump through so many loops simply to get unofficial information about a feature. This is the problem with training and still, to a limited extent, tactics.

Some people are better at games than others. That is the entire point of games. If we were all exactly the same at games there would be no point in playing them.

If you don't want to take advantage of the knowledge of those that are good at certain areas of certain games that is your call.

Some people are better at games than others. That is the entire point of games. If we were all exactly the same at games there would be no point in playing them.

If you don't want to take advantage of the knowledge of those that are good at certain areas of certain games that is your call.

I'm not talking about "being better" than anyone else. To me, it is a basic requirement of any game to provide sufficient information about its features including training, yet the only information about training stems from the official forums amongst users not employed by SI. You would be surprised at how much more receptive people are with authoritative sources.

You have to remember that this is a game, not a learning experience requiring us to study forum threads and users' opinions. A game should not be difficult to get into - but the game may of course be difficult to play. The lack of documentation around training makes training difficult to get into. Training isn't hard in itself. Doing training is easy - click and point. Understanding it is difficult.

While you are quite correct that SI do not provide anywhere near enough information on what means what and how things work, Joe Average doesn't have to "crack" training. If Joe Average is having such a hard time figuring out how to train his players then Joe Average can avoid doing all the hardwork of finding this out for himself and read guides like the ones you can find in the Tactics and Training Tips forum.

Obviously this stuff is not impossible to figure out or no one would have figured it out. It might be hard but that is still not impossible, it might be too hard for the average user and I can fully appreciate this fact without being condescending.

However that does not mean that there are no guides, no information, no details, no threads and no posts giving you precisely the information you require.

You could have all this information if you wanted. If you don't have this information and it is posted two clicks away then you have no excuse.

I think things like how a coach divides his work load, if at all, and therefore whether there is any point employing youth or first team coaches, is impossible to "figure out". Likewise, the "multiple physios" objection. I think it's been deduced that fitness coaches are just coaches, but something like that shouldn't need to be worked out, it should be given on a plate.

That doesn't mean everything should be on a plate, just things that take complex formulae on Excel to work out that needn't be so complex, like fitness coaching.

I'm not talking about "being better" than anyone else. To me, it is a basic requirement of any game to provide sufficient information about its features including training, yet the only information about training stems from the official forums amongst users not employed by SI. You would be surprised at how much more receptive people are with authoritative sources.

You have to remember that this is a game, not a learning experience requiring us to study forum threads and users' opinions. A game should not be difficult to get into - but the game may of course be difficult to play. The lack of documentation around training makes training difficult to get into. Training isn't hard in itself. Doing training is easy - click and point. Understanding it is difficult.

None of that makes any difference to the fact that the information exists and you have failed to find it, whether that is because you do not know where to look or because of some petulant desire not to have to learn from other gamers.

If you think the system is basic and simple but understanding the premise is difficult, then people like me are around to help you out. People like me that spend a lot of their free time not playing the game, not figuring out how to play the game, but helping other people at great length and in great depth to play the game.

There is a greater problem here than you realise. That problem is how easy the game is for people like me. People like me that buy every edition, that are well beyond the age of fads and buying top rated games according to popular websites, people like me that are lifelong fans and will continue to be so, people like me that take the time to help large numbers of people understand certain aspects of the game.

If Football Manager becomes too easy it will become unrealistic, it will become disappointing to the older fans, it will become a fad game, and it will eventually be overtaken by other games in the genre.

All you have to do is look at FML to realise what FM will become if it becomes easy and shallow. FML is unrealistic, it lacks depth, the community is fragmented, everyone can instantly understand every basic principle of the game as soon as they join, and the game is dying. Manager ability is a second rate attribute, realism is a second rate concern and after several years of play SI have frozen all account payments and are planning to completely reset the entire system back to square one.

FML is a complete disaster. It is a disaster because all that matters is the length of time you have played. Your actual managerial ability and individual capability is completely irrelevant.

FM is an infinately superior game because your intelligence, knowledge and ability is all that matters. This is true whether you know every mechanic in fine detail, watch every game of your team and rarely play, or only watch MOTD but pay deep attention to what is shown on T.V.

Football Manager is all about your ability as a manager. FML is all about how long you have played and what tricks you have picked up from the forums. The game doesn't allow you to study opponent line-ups, it doesn't allow you to Train or Man Manage players, and untill a few months ago it didn't allow you any real control over tactics.

The fact of the matter is that Football Manager is all about your ability as a manager. Your ability to watch, learn, adapt. Many users hate this, that you must pay attention and think, but that still remains the games greatest strength in terms of realism and enjoyment while being it's greatest weakness in terms of ease of use and satisfication.

The best thing about FM is the worst thing about FM. You are complaining about the very thing that keeps you interested. The difference between you and me is not what we enjoy, it is that I have used every single element at my disposal to succeed while you have given up.