About league reputations

There has been discussion for about 15 years about this same old thing. While teams reputation can rise, league's reputation cannot. This means that when you are playing on low profile league, you cannot buy even average players even if your team wins Champions league. And this serious flaw has been around for 15 years, so I decided to see if it has been fixed on FM 2010.

So, Liga BBVA and Premier League reputations are set to 3 on database (equal to English conferende), go on holiday for 720 days and see what happens.

Well, nothing. According to FMRTE reputations are still at 3. And it seems so, because on Real Madrid or Barcelona there is huge amount of players who are not interested to transfer. Take, for example, Mathieu Bodmer (who?), plays for Lyon. Not interested in a move for Real or Barcelona, great.

According to this, league's reputation cannot rise.

And of course, somebody says that if league reputation can rise, we have some leagues in Africa those reputation exceeds Premier league. This is easilly avoided by following:

Current league reputation = league's current reputation.

Minimum league reputation = league's reputation cannot get lower than this.

Maximum league reputation = league's reputation cannot get higher than this.

Very hard.

It seems that SIGames is more interested in making some nice looking 3D-nimation Match Engine BS than actually making this game playable. And it is worthless to explain anything. SIGames have time to make for example new attribute models (there was nothing wrong on previous model), remove moving arrows that make so much more work that ME has been broken since FM 2009, new star model for Coaches and so on. So there is time to do game internal stuff, most eye candy, but it seems that there is no time to fix the game so that it even works or fix those flaws that hs been around over 10 years. Or there is simple FO attitude, like "We use database editor and provide data updates using it, for users, we do not give it".

I suggest that nobody buys FM 2011, those traitors do not deserve our support anymore. I thing I will burn my own original copy on FM 2010.

A bit harsh...

Still, despite the little "overreaction rulez!" rant, the core of the post is actually true.

We have been debating about League Reputation for ages, and nothing has been done. Actually there seems to be a lot of polarized opinions.

I suspect, however, those who think the current system is ok usually play in EPL or in equally popular leagues.

It has been said countless times, it's easier reaching European Glory with Forest Green than with, say, AIK or LASK.

For myself, I reckon a bit of Dynamic League Rep is not an option, is a MUST.

Of course we all know Slovakian League won't ever become as prestigious as La Liga, not even if every tycoon in Eastern Europe decided to take over a club there and they could afford City-like wages and fees.

HOWEVER, money can indeed attract a certain target of players, and they, over time, would probably cause the league to get better. Or at least the richest clubs.

The easier way is the min-max reputation, but that won't change things that much in the end.. Leagues with a lower standard will always hit the glass ceiling anyway.

What I suggest is: let's have the game calculate the League Rep by taking into account the level of the teams involved in the league, weighing the Top Sides more than the bottom-leaguers.

Leagues with just a couple of strong and popular sides [e.g. Portugal, Netherlands] should have a slightly higher appeal than a league with a better average level but with no relevant clubs.

P.S. to the naysayers... Remember which kind of foreign stars was the Premier League attracting BEFORE continental managers and exotic tycoons changed English football's landscape?

What a shame you had to go all psycho because your basic point is a good and valid one.

so I decided to see if it has been fixed on FM 2010.

You could have just asked and we would have told you it hadn't been included

It seems that SIGames is more interested in making some nice looking 3D-nimation Match Engine BS than actually making this game playable. And it is worthless to explain anything. SIGames have time to make for example new attribute models (there was nothing wrong on previous model), remove moving arrows that make so much more work that ME has been broken since FM 2009, new star model for Coaches and so on. So there is time to do game internal stuff, most eye candy, but it seems that there is no time to fix the game so that it even works or fix those flaws that hs been around over 10 years. Or there is simple FO attitude, like "We use database editor and provide data updates using it, for users, we do not give it".

Wow, I think I disagree with all that

I agree that the game needs dynamic league rep, but like others have said it needs to be done properly. But tone of the post is a bit harsh. It will be a nice feature once SI incorporates it. In the meantime, I use FMRTE to edit league reps based on UEFA coefficients every few seasons or so. It's not perfect and it only takes Europe into account, but works for me.

Remember which kind of foreign stars was the Premier League attracting BEFORE continental managers and exotic tycoons changed English football's landscape?

Eh? That was the Premier League's birth wasn't it?

I'm not sure what your point is? Before the Premier League, the First Division had several foreign stars - but international transfers were a much less common occurence in those days for EVERY league. Not to mention that the UK had much stricter work permit laws than most other countries then too.

Not that it really mattered because English clubs dominated Europe without lots of foreign stars, until the UEFA ban.

That ban (and it's effects) isn't something that occurs in FM, and immigration issues are little to do with football on-the-pitch.

Football League matches have been broadcast live to the continent from the late 1960s.

The top league reps don't much change - it takes extreme factors far beyond football to do so, and over many years.

I'd like it if the league's reputation did rise, because I didn't know or realize this and played in Luxembourg for several seasons (making it into the group stages of the UEFA cup many times, but sadly, the league reputation stayed the same). I played there hoping that through being victorious in Europe it would improve the league and the competitiveness in it.

Eh? That was the Premier League's birth wasn't it?

I'm not sure what your point is? Before the Premier League, the First Division had several foreign stars - but international transfers were a much less common occurence in those days for EVERY league. Not to mention that the UK had much stricter work permit laws than most other countries then too.

Not that it really mattered because English clubs dominated Europe without lots of foreign stars, until the UEFA ban.

That ban (and it's effects) isn't something that occurs in FM, and immigration issues are little to do with football on-the-pitch.

Football League matches have been broadcast live to the continent from the late 1960s.

The top league reps don't much change - it takes extreme factors far beyond football to do so, and over many years.

Ban or no ban, EPL didn't become (again) a powerhouse in world football until tycoons took the big clubs over and TV revenues granted big money for most clubs.

Unless I'm not talking about a different Premier League, I don't quite remember Top European Stars playing for Liverpool, Arsenal or even ManU 15 years ago. (much less 20 years ago]

Top Stars were either in Spain or Italy, with England being a third choice, or a "new" ground where trying to get a fresh start [bergkamp, Zola, Henry] or a last hooray

Just before anyone goes and says it's unrealistic (because this idea clearly hasn't been posted before), we're not talking about small career games but long-term ones - think 20+ years, for example. Even in the short-term it may be useful - Serie A's decline and the 1.Bundesliga's rise has been gently becoming more apparent in recent years, for example.

I agree with the overall point the OP is trying to make, just not the way he went about it (especially that last paragraph which IMO is totally uncalled for).

I like to have a long game in Scotland with my team, Glasgow Rangers. While we all know and acknowledge the Scottish league is not at a great standard at present. If Rangers or god forbid Celtic won the CL consistently or even got to the 1/4 or semi finals consistently then they would surely be able to attract a better class of players after a few years of this. Also the league in general would, I believe benefit, from this as well with the other teams attracting a slightly better player, with the player hoping that he will get noticed and picked up by the big 2.

I think it is definitely something that needs to be looked at by SI and implemented into the game.

I agreed with all you said until this point:

SIGames have time to make for example new attribute models (there was nothing wrong on previous model)

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=58666

remove moving arrows that make so much more work that ME has been broken since FM 2009

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=50799

I would just like SOME response from SI on this issue. The people that don't care about this play in the EPL, period.

Shouldnt the league rep be an average of all the rep's of teams in said league

Ban or no ban, EPL didn't become (again) a powerhouse in world football until tycoons took the big clubs over and TV revenues granted big money for most clubs.

Unless I'm not talking about a different Premier League, I don't quite remember Top European Stars playing for Liverpool, Arsenal or even ManU 15 years ago. (much less 20 years ago]

Top Stars were either in Spain or Italy, with England being a third choice, or a "new" ground where trying to get a fresh start [bergkamp, Zola, Henry] or a last hooray

So you don't remember Cantona? Schmeichel? Ravanelli? Juninho? Klinsmann? Dumitrescu? Popescu? Seem to recall all of those playing in the EPL 15 years ago, along with Bergkamp (who you've written off bizarrely?).

@ laxinthe: I very rarely play outside the top 3 leagues (EPL, La Liga and Serie A) yet I care about this issue. So don't go making sweeping generalisations. I should imagine theres been no comment from SI because they probably read the OP and realised it wasn't going to be discussed graciously and respectfully.

So you don't remember Cantona? Schmeichel? Ravanelli? Juninho? Klinsmann? Dumitrescu? Popescu? Seem to recall all of those playing in the EPL 15 years ago, along with Bergkamp (who you've written off bizarrely?).

Cantona and Schmeichel became huge stars AFTER they came there.

Ravanelli went for a new challenge after he was risking to lose his spot at Juventus, just like Vialli did. Both very good strikers, but already on the "wrong" side of their career curve.

Speaking of which, Klinsmann did more or less the same, with better results. But still, when the FWA's Player of the Year is a 30yo star who came there to revive his career [and his bank account?], it's not a good sign.

Dumitrescu? Really? A world class player? Who didn't even reach 30 EPL appearences in two stints? Wanna throw Silenzi or Pål Lydersen in the list too?

Popescu stayed there one season and left for Barça...

Speaking of Bergkamp, do you remember HOW he ended up at Highbury? Inter Milan signed him for a huge huge fee [around £ 20M at the time], and he was hailed as the signing of the season.

Instead Bergkamp was quite disappointing and failed to make a convincing impact in Serie A. Inter then pretty much gave him away to the Gunners.

Sure, Dennis showed his true skills in his long and successful stint at Arsenal, but saying he was a Top Star when he came there is inaccurate to say the least.

Bergkamp, much like Henry and Vieira, was a Serie A reject who got a second chance in England and made the best out of it.

But when they went there, they were no World Class players.

I don't know how you can honestly deny EPL is richer and "better" now than it was 15 years ago...

Serie A went the other way... 15 or 20 years ago, most of the great players wanted to play in Italy. Nowadays it's almost an elephant's graveyard

Cantona and Schmeichel became huge stars AFTER they came there.

Ravanelli went for a new challenge after he was risking to lose his spot at Juventus, just like Vialli did. Both very good strikers, but already on the "wrong" side of their career curve.

Speaking of which, Klinsmann did more or less the same, with better results. But still, when the FWA's Player of the Year is a 30yo star who came there to revive his career [and his bank account?], it's not a good sign.

Dumitrescu? Really? A world class player? Who didn't even reach 30 EPL appearences in two stints? Wanna throw Silenzi or Pål Lydersen in the list too?

Popescu stayed there one season and left for Barça...

Speaking of Bergkamp, do you remember HOW he ended up at Highbury? Inter Milan signed him for a huge huge fee [around £ 20M at the time], and he was hailed as the signing of the season.

Instead Bergkamp was quite disappointing and failed to make a convincing impact in Serie A. Inter then pretty much gave him away to the Gunners.

Sure, Dennis showed his true skills in his long and successful stint at Arsenal, but saying he was a Top Star when he came there is inaccurate to say the least.

Bergkamp, much like Henry and Vieira, was a Serie A reject who got a second chance in England and made the best out of it.

But when they went there, they were no World Class players.

I don't know how you can honestly deny EPL is richer and "better" now than it was 15 years ago...

Serie A went the other way... 15 or 20 years ago, most of the great players wanted to play in Italy. Nowadays it's almost an elephant's graveyard

I didn't say the EPL was richer or better then, just making a point.

Schmeichel was a European champion when he went to Utd so I kinda think he was already pretty good and well known.

Popescu and Dumitrescu were world class players who just didn't settle, so I don't think they should be written off, their presence proves the attractiveness of the league is all I'm saying.

Actually Schemichel signed for ManU for the 1991-92 season, one year before becoming European Champion.

Back then he was "just" a good keeper from Denmark.

Also, I'll disagree to the end of my days on Dumitrescu being a world class player, but whatever.

The attractiveness of the league was however much LOWER than it has become after Uncle Rupert started to throw money at the clubs, and rich tycoon got themselves a new toy...

Before it was either "Aging Stars looking for a new challenge" or "Good International players"

Just to make another example: the core of the (moderately successful) Norwegian national squad in the 90s was playing in EPL.

Nowadays how many Norwegians are there in EPL? 6...

Is it because Norwegian players have become much crappier than 15 years ago [likely], or is it because even mid-table clubs can now AFFORD better players from better leagues who'll require higher wages?

Do you really think Liverpool could have signed last decade's "Fernando Torres"?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/plots.html

shows how the league reputation has fluctuated since the 60's it would be good for FM to have that making it more realistic, as for the comment about the premier league the reason players didnt move to england was a mixture of things, the english media bias AGAINST foreigners, the money and even the fact that majority of the best players of europe stayed in their home nation most of the time

that and the fact the bosman ruling gave a bigger role to players and agents, and less about clubs as its since 95 that more and more foreigners switching countries to the clubs prepared to offer most money

what is FMRTE?????

acidmonkey, great point, also the point that a lower rated league rep should increase due to a champions league victory may not be very accurate. A factor may still lie around that other club in that division still having poor grounds and facilities and a poor standard of personal. Your own team may buck this trend but usaul a one off winner from such a nation normally has all its player bought by larger teams. the only thing that could be done is to spot emerging yout player before other teams do.

The league should impove over a longer term but it would tak 10 years or so and you would need other club to improve

Not necessarily - look at how Porto monopolise their league and still give top teams a bit of a nightmare in the Champions League, although it is true they will likely never be the best team in the world again (going by how they won the Champions League a couple of years ago) because the rest of the league isn't moving with them.

x42bn6, Benfica, Sporting Club of Lisbon, both big

Liga Wins.

Benfica, 31. 2 times champions league winner. 5 times runners up

Porto, 24

Sporting CP, 18

Braga and Boavista to a lesser extent More ur UEFA Europa LEAgue teams

The point can also be related to france and lyon recent domination of 7 titles. Bordeaux won it last year though.

True, but Porto have won the last 4 Portuguese Liga seasons - including one where they still won after getting 6 points knocked off for match-fixing. It would have been 7 in 7 had Benfica not won 2004-2005 - where they proceeded to forget how to win the season after and return below Porto.

at the end of the day 15-20 years ago england was the third choice league behind italy and spain. it always had been until the late 90's. Look at Gascoigne, Platt, Lineker, Hughes and probably more going to spain and italy because it was better at the time

I agree with Jaggers.

Porto during their Champs League winning season - lost their manger to moneybags Chelsea and subsequently lost a number of their title winning squad to Chelsea due to the manager leaving. Clubs from smaller reputation nations can go on to win these competitions in a one off situation (how many times have you seen Monaco make it into the later stages of the Champs League since their final defeat to Porto, how many times have Porto been further than the Qtr Finals in the same competition.)

Smaller teams that go on to win that competition will more than likely end up loosing one or two if not more of their star performers that season to teams (not necessarily to clubs with higher reps) in a league with a higher rep.

yes porto are the king of the portuguese liga but the countries does not have a low reputation on FM10.

clubs in portugal have a good standard of football facilities, from stadia to training grounds. i am talking about countries such as for example, Maybe Poland were investment in football isn't very high.

What a shame you had to go all psycho because your basic point is a good and valid one.

Well, you get lot more discussion here by going "psycho". It has been proved many times. Sad but true.

You could have just asked and we would have told you it hadn't been included

Yes, but I had to test it myself. Just 5 minutes work (and machine runs when I'm away).

Wow, I think I disagree with all that

I think you cannot disagree with database editor for example...

what is FMRTE?????

http://www.fmrte.com/

As for that 2 last paragraphs, I (including many else) are unsurprisingly angry with SIGames's attitude in fixing problems. "We have limited amount of time that we have to do the game", well, as I proved, they have time to make many major changes that create more work they do not have time to fix. And not giving FM 2010 database editor to users (they use it), even when politely asked ( http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=178587 ), that attitude is something that deserves such a rant. Prime example of FO attitude I previously explained.