Meaning of Bravery and Determination

Ok, sorry if this is dumb thing to ask but how do Bravery and Determination really work? And do they really affect on anything in match engine?

I always thought that Determination is an important attribute for all players regardless of their position and Bravery is important for defending players and perhaps strikers. Those attributes are something that I've almost religiously looked at when signing a new player. However, having failed to see any real evidence that they work as I think they should I'm beginning to believe that those attributes are not that important after all and a player with high physical attributes can do very well even without high mental attributes, whereas a player with high mental but low physical attributes is more or less doomed to failure.

I'm not saying that the values are purely cosmetic and that they don't have a meaning at all, but maybe they should have more weight and players with high mental attributes should make a lot better even if they are lacking a bit in strength and pace. What do you guys think? Am I alone thinking this way? Or maybe it's just my tactics?

Btw. I'm playing FM09 but I don't think there's a huge difference between FM09 and FM10 on this.

Determination influences how a player will react to misfortune (coming 1-0 behind in a match, for example).

Bravery determines (I think) how willing a player is to go into a challenge, or to put in a last-minute tackle and things like that. As you said, this is useful for defenders and in my experience also for attackers (they need to make challenges too).

Yep, that's how they SHOULD work. Now the question is: Do they really work as they should? I haven't seen any evidence that they do.

I always like to tie bravery in with aggression as well. An aggressive and brave player could be relied on to make big tackles. DEtermination however i see as an attribute that is more about how willing they are to help the teams cause especially when they go goals down.

Yep, that's how they SHOULD work. Now the question is: Do they really work as they should? I haven't seen any evidence that they do.

My striker has 16 for determination. He's often scored two to pull the team back from behind.

My striker at Utrecht had 5 for bravery and he never even went into a header up front (he was a decent header).

I think it does work, but I don't know what you want for evidence. The best evidence you can get is to analyse your own games.

Tomer: Thank you, that's kind of information I wanted to get. Sorry if I worded it poorly but English is not my first language :-P

I have a couple of examples that made me question the meaning of mental attributes in the first place: I have a strong back four with relatively high mental and physical attributes although one of the centre-halves is ageing and lacking pace a bit. I recently had a terrible run when I managed only one win from 9 games or something like that and replaced the ageing centre-half with a young DC from reserves with very high physical attributes but absolutely abysmal mental attributes. The result: 5 wins from next 5 games and the young defender got high ratings in every match.

Another example: In another match match my midfield was completely outplayed by a team that had 2 MC's and a DM. Their best player was their DM whose Bravery was 6 and I had sold years back in lower division as I felt that he wasn't good enough for my team.

Ok, these are only a couple of examples and I understand I may have missed a whole bunch of situations that have gone another way and where high mental attributes have been the key. But I'm still worried that mental attributes are not that important and I've overlooked players because of their low mental attributes for years. This is why I wanted to hear another people's opinions about this :-)

I think physical atributes are far more important than mental atributes. For example my mental atributes are good, but that doesn't make me a good player. While if my physical atributes were good, then i could be a good footballer. So I always look for physical atributes and some mental atributes like composure and positioning.

Clear cut evidence is sort of hard to come by, since there are many factors in the game. Your young DC may have been a great passer or something which could account for his high rating, or a superb header. Maybe he doesn't have to be brave or something because he's just really quick and will get to the ball before the attacker has a chance.

The same goes for the DM. Maybe his team battles for him so he can receive the ball fairly easily and distribute it well. Or maybe his anticipation or positioning is very good.

As I said, there's never really any clear cut evidence. Ratings are never really reliable since a poorly playing striker can boost his rating massively by scoring a tap-in and a well-playing defender can have a shot deflected off him that goes into his own goal and be credited with having made a mistake.

Evidence will be hard to provide as the game is so un-static, so very few comparable situations arise in which strikers or defenders with different mental attributes could be compared.

I just trust SI to make this work and so far I have no indication of the opposite.

Still, in FM09 the physical attributes were a bit overrated, so in case of having to go for either in FM09, indeed go for the player with great physics.

On top of that, determination is also important for the player development and thus indirectly affects all other attributes and their development as well to a small extent.

Yes it's difficult to find out evidence from a single match. Probably only way to reliably find out the importance of those attributes is to run a test where all players of one team have Bravery and Determination edited to 1 and another test with original database. And then comparing results would hopefully shed some light on this. And maybe comparing the amount of successful tackles would be useful too. I might even do it whenever I find some time for it :-)

Bravery is perhaps not in the top 10 key attributes, but determination is. To see the benefits there are 2 tests you can do.

1. short -term: in a match keep the motivation widget on screen. Compare the motivation of a highly determined player with a low determination one, especially when things are not going well.

2. Training - DET is a key factor in a player training well. Compare the progress over a year or two of a youth with high DET with one with low.

Re. Mental atts generally. In earlier versions of FM it is true that physical atts were overweighted. They've been tweaked and are well balanced now. I think in the game as in real life it's like this: at lower levels physical is more important. But as you reach higher levels mental becomes a key factor. Very often the difference between an average player and a world class one is in the mind; physically there is no difference. Another point is in the ME as in real life it is easier to see a player with quicker feet; less obvious to spot the quicker mind - but that doesn't mean it isn't there.

But as you reach higher levels mental becomes a key factor. Very often the difference between an average player and a world class one is in the mind; physically there is no difference.

From my experience I can tell you that these are very true words...

Determination is how willing a player is to perform no matter what the score and bravery determines stuff like how often they slide tackle, their aggression and getting stuck in

Ok, sorry if this is dumb thing to ask but how do Bravery and Determination really work? And do they really affect on anything in match engine?

I always thought that Determination is an important attribute for all players regardless of their position and Bravery is important for defending players and perhaps strikers. Those attributes are something that I've almost religiously looked at when signing a new player. However, having failed to see any real evidence that they work as I think they should I'm beginning to believe that those attributes are not that important after all and a player with high physical attributes can do very well even without high mental attributes, whereas a player with high mental but low physical attributes is more or less doomed to failure.

I'm not saying that the values are purely cosmetic and that they don't have a meaning at all, but maybe they should have more weight and players with high mental attributes should make a lot better even if they are lacking a bit in strength and pace. What do you guys think? Am I alone thinking this way? Or maybe it's just my tactics?

Btw. I'm playing FM09 but I don't think there's a huge difference between FM09 and FM10 on this.

That is not true at all. There are some Mental Attributes that have a negligable impact on a particular player, but there are some Mental Attributes that have a profound impact on all players. In my opinion Mental Attributes are just about the most important attributes in the game. Technical and Physical attributes only really matter when they are really needed, Passing and Stamina for midfielders, Finishing and Acceleration for forwards, Dribbling and Pace for Wingers, Tackling and Strength for defenders etc. but Mental attributes transcend position. Imagine Paolo Maldini up against Usain Bolt in a Football Match. No contest.

Mental Attributes can essentially be divided into two groups. You have the Personality Attributes that define a particular players general behaviour and his general mental state, then you have the Mental Ability attributes that define how good a player is at certain Mental aspects of the game.

The Personality attributes are Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Flair, Influence. You can find plenty of dumb players that are aggressive, brave, unrelenting, loudmouthed and like to try the Holywood ball. The Mental Attributes are everything else in that Category. You can find plenty of football Geniuses that are meek, cowardly, apathetic, quiet and keep things simple.

These attributes are huge. Their ingame scope is vast, their impact as influential as any Physical or Technical attribute, their frequency in calculations is unmatched.

Look at Darren Fletcher in real life and in FM2010. A giant of the midfield despite the fact he is scrawny and has limited technical ability. His passing might be top quality, but how much of that is down to his mental attributes rather than his technical skills?

Think of Michael Essien. He is brave and determined, but this also racks up yellow cards galore.

That is not true at all. There are some Mental Attributes that have a negligable impact on a particular player, but there are some Mental Attributes that have a profound impact on all players. In my opinion Mental Attributes are just about the most important attributes in the game. Technical and Physical attributes only really matter when they are really needed, Passing and Stamina for midfielders, Finishing and Acceleration for forwards, Dribbling and Pace for Wingers, Tackling and Strength for defenders etc. but Mental attributes transcend position. Imagine Paolo Maldini up against Usain Bolt in a Football Match. No contest.

Mental Attributes can essentially be divided into two groups. You have the Personality Attributes that define a particular players general behaviour and his general mental state, then you have the Mental Ability attributes that define how good a player is at certain Mental aspects of the game.

The Personality attributes are Aggression, Bravery, Determination, Flair, Influence. You can find plenty of dumb players that are aggressive, brave, unrelenting, loudmouthed and like to try the Holywood ball. The Mental Attributes are everything else in that Category. You can find plenty of football Geniuses that are meek, cowardly, apathetic, quiet and keep things simple.

These attributes are huge. Their ingame scope is vast, their impact as influential as any Physical or Technical attribute, their frequency in calculations is unmatched.

Look at Darren Fletcher in real life and in FM2010. A giant of the midfield despite the fact he is scrawny and has limited technical ability. His passing might be top quality, but how much of that is down to his mental attributes rather than his technical skills?

I understand your point and that's pretty much how I think Mental Attributes should work in FM. However I've began to believe that, while not going that far that I'm claiming mental attributes are totally cosmetic in game, IMO they are hugely undervalued. To be honest, I would think twice before putting my money on Paolo if he was against Usain Bolt in FM. IRL there would be no contest of course :-)

The reason for me to start this thread was that in many occasions I had witnessed (not just those two examples I mentioned before, there are more but I'm not going to list them all here :-)) physically strong but mentally inferior player doing better than they probably should and better than a player who was mentally superior but lacking physique. That's how I felt after playing this game for countless of hours and that was very worrying as I obviously love the game and would want it to reflect real life as accurately as possible. I would absolutely love it if someone came here and prove me wrong. Prove me that it's all because of my tactics or something else I've missed. I understand it's difficult to provide bulletproof evidence on this subject but at least it's good to know what other people think about his.

As I said, I'm still playing FM09 and therefore cannot say anything about importance of attributes in FM10. As phnompenhandy mentioned, attributes are better balanced in the new version and that's very good news indeed.

Btw. Yesterday I edited the database and reduced all Chelsea players' Bravery and Determination to 1. Later this week I'll run a season-long holiday test with both, the edited and original database to see what kind of effect it has on their performances. Probably I should run the both test at least twice to get more reliable results but I'm not sure if I have time for that. Predictions, anyone? How do you think they'll do?

Pace

Acceleration

ME breaking atrtributes .....

Pace

Acceleration

ME breaking atrtributes .....

Care to elaborate?

Care to elaborate?

build a team based around pace/accel and it kicks the stuffing out of teams based on technical or mental stats

That was true 2 or 3 years ago, but not now.

Anybody who hasn't helped code the ME, or at least been in close contact with somebody who has, who tells you for sure that an attribute has a certain importance is lying. It it nearly impossible to see the direct effects of attributes, because they overlap so much.

From experience, determination is the most important attribute when it comes down to it. Team with high determination can gain several points from that trait. Short term, you'll notice the impact of physical, technical and certain mental* attributes more, but over a season, determination comes to the fore. A determined player will seemingly gain pace and such. This has been commented on by SI staff when players complain about seeing seemingly slow players get to loose balls first.

I'm fairly sure bravery plays a significant role in winning headers, and also blocks and sliding tackles. Again, I can't say for sure, but it is a difference I observe between similar defenders with different bravery attributes.

* I'm talking about the likes of composure, which goes hand in hand with finishing, and creativity, which is the same for passing. They have a much more noticeable affect than, say, anticipation.

On that subject, it is worth remembering that some mental attributes have next to no affect on a certain type of player, but similar attributes do. Anticipation is an attacking attribute, concentration is a defensive one. Off the ball and positioning are the same. Work rate and team work, whilst important off the pitch, have little impact on defenders.

Determination influences how a player will react to misfortune (coming 1-0 behind in a match, for example).

Bravery determines (I think) how willing a player is to go into a challenge, or to put in a last-minute tackle and things like that. As you said, this is useful for defenders and in my experience also for attackers (they need to make challenges too).

I believe this is pretty on-point. The attributes must be tied to more but determination and bravery are the first two things I look at when buying a player (followed by pace, stamina and then jumping/heading).

One thing I have noticed always works well is if you have wingers or fullbacks/wingbacks with very high bravery. Set the opposing wingers to tight marking and hard tackling and the opponent's wings will usually have a miserable game from all the bullying.

Work rate and team work, whilst important off the pitch, have little impact on defenders.

Doesn't team work determine how well your defenders perform as a unit?

Also, I look out for work rate as well, especially for the full backs, as it significantly affects closing down.

Doesn't team work determine how well your defenders perform as a unit?

Also, I look out for work rate as well, especially for the full backs, as it significantly affects closing down.

SCIAG is providing a fair bit of misleading information here. The problem with Mental attributes is the quantity of observation required to be able to spot their influence on the game, but once you have that level of observational experience behind you, mental attributes prove to be huge in their importance.

Take Anticipation. SCIAG claims that Finishing, Composure, Creativity etc. has a much more noticeable effect than Anticipation but that is entireally down to the level of observation you are capable of. For example in a recent game of mine Paul Scholes had the ball about 40 yards from goal and curled a pass into Michael Owen who peeled off the second centreback into acres of space to finish first time into the bottom corner of the goal from ten yards.

You would expect that perhaps Off-The-Ball was a key factor in the run but that would be incorrect. The actual breakdown of the move came from Paul Scholes' Creativity to spot the pass, his Passing to accurately deliver the pass, and from Michael Owen it was a move that extolled the virtues of his 20 Anticipation. It was not Off-The-Ball that controlled the run at all for Off-The-Ball controls the comprehension of space. Owen was marked and was in a poor position for any kind of obvious ball to his feet. Michael Owen Anticipated the 19 Creativity Pass type and angle and timing, that is 3 different features of the Paul Scholes pass he Anticipated. He Anticipated that Scholes would play the ball into space behind the defence, Anticipated that the ball would be lofted and curled rather than whipped, and he Anticipated the final position of the ball as well as the positioning of the Goalkeeper and his ability to cover the area of the goal. Owen simply ran forward at the perfect moment into the perfect position and tapped the ball first time into the bottom corner. This is what occurs when you have a player of maximum Anticipation.

Anticipation is potentially the most powerful of all Mental Attributes in my opinion for the simple reason that Anticipation defines the ability of a player to see what is going to happen next. One could argue that Anticipation determines the delay between the Decision of one player and the Decision of the next player, but it also functions to determine the delay between the Decisons of ALL PLAYERS and the next player, therefore allowing the next player to accurately judge the behaviour of all other players on the pitch and make his Decision first.

If a Striker with High Off The Ball takes up a great position between two Centrebacks, the Centreback with higher Anticipation will simply move up just before the pass is played and catch the amazing Off The Ball striker off-side, for OTB means exploitation of space and Anticipation means timing of decisions and moves. Cristiano Ronaldo in FM09 was a perfect example of what low Anticipation means for an otherwise brilliant Striker. So long as he was kept just infront of defences he was untouchable, with the ability to defeat any marker, outrun any cover and score excellent goals with either foot. Put him on the shoulder of the last man and he was simply unable to time his runs or avoid tackles or even control passes because he was unaware of the next action taken by all players untill it was too late.

Likewise Composure is not simply a Striker attribute. It does not merely define the time taken to weigh up a shooting option. Composure is a vital attribute for Defensive Midfielders especially in teams like Arsenal who require players that can feed the advanced lines from deep positions and are susceptible to closing down and intense play. If your DM or deep lying playmaker lacks Composure then sure he will rush shots when in the box, but he will also rush passes and essentially freak out under all kinds of pressure. Defenders that lack Composure are prime candidates for blame when the ball is punted out of play in high pressure games where no opponents are nearby.

Mental Attributes make up the overwhelming majority of factors in action/event calculations in the Match Engine. For every Technical attribute involved in a pass there will be atleast two Mental attributes involved in calculating the outcome of the same move.

good post,everyone should read