Nonsensical, unrealistic data updates.

Can someone explain to me the logic behind certain data updates? Why is it that when I start a season in June or July with Bayern (using patch 10.2), for example, Martin Demichelis is injured, even though his injury only occured later on? Even worse, when patch 10.3 comes out, certain players who were at Bayern in July will be at different places (i.e. Luca Toni to Roma) following the new patch. This just makes no sense and is completely unrealistic. I want to have the realistic finances and accurate attribute updates and the like, but it's maddening to see players injured several months after the start of the season being injured at the start of the season just because when the patch came out, they were injured. Just as bad is the fact that certain players on loan in July, are no longer on loan in later patches, even though the date has remained the same! I mean, really - a little more realism regarding these huge disparities shouldn't be that hard to come by. A user whouldn't be forced to choose between "a new patch, and accurate attributes, finances, loan and transfer situations" on the one hand, and 'realism' on the other hand. It should be the case that both are available.

I think that when you start a new game with a patch you have the option to use the data from a previous version, so you should have the option on this.

I think it'd be good if every edition of the game included a 'June' database as an option that excludes any moves made after a certain date at the end of the previous season.

I always find it weird taking over a club that has 5/6 new players all signed expensively by a previous manager. In real life a manager about to be sacked wouldn't be given the funds to buy players and then not even one competitive match with his new squad.

I have always been a fan of having future transfers instead of all the new players at the start of the season but SI chose to go this way and so be it

You dont have to use the updated data, so aren't being forced in to that choice at all.

There are plenty of editors around for you to use if you think its necessary anyway.

I think it'd be good if every edition of the game included a 'June' database as an option that excludes any moves made after a certain date at the end of the previous season.

I'd prefer we see something like Eidos did with Championship Manager. I think it works by letting you start from certain points in the season with the tables and results replicating real life. It's probably not a viable option due to licenses and stuff but I think it would be a great feature, or even make good DLC.

but if you choose a previous data version to start a game, wouldn't you miss out on the other updates as well?

but if you choose a previous data version to start a game, wouldn't you miss out on the other updates as well?

Only the data ones, all the other patch fixes would be applied.

I'd prefer we see something like Eidos did with Championship Manager. I think it works by letting you start from certain points in the season with the tables and results replicating real life. It's probably not a viable option due to licenses and stuff but I think it would be a great feature, or even make good DLC.

Yeah I quite enjoy that feature too, but I don't think they include any player's stats updates in those do they?

but if you choose a previous data version to start a game, wouldn't you miss out on the other updates as well?

No you get all of the game updates on any new game started, in fact you get the majority of them on any continuing saved games too.

You dont have to use the updated data, so aren't being forced in to that choice at all.

If you want realistic finances, and more accurate player attributes - as well as whatever other benefits come from a data patch, you do. The choice shouldn't exist, patches should be able to incorporate both realism and the ability to use the new patch. As it stands, I can choose one or the other, but not both.

If you want realistic finances, and more accurate player attributes - as well as whatever other benefits come from a data patch, you do. The choice shouldn't exist, patches should be able to incorporate both realism and the ability to use the new patch. As it stands, I can choose one or the other, but not both.

The data is only updated based on what happens between October and February, which is what you've said you don't want. You can get all the other non data related fixes while using the old data.

The data is only updated based on what happens between October and February, which is what you've said you don't want. You can get all the other non data related fixes while using the old data.

The difference is that data updates like finances and attribute changes are only more accurate versions of the information. For example, it's not unrealistic that in the 10.3 patch Lukaku will have a better PA than in the original version of the game, it's only more accurate. His PA has not really changed over time, you've only acquired better knowledge and information about it - thus making the game in relation to his stats (as well as other players) more accurate and thus more realistic. The same goes for finances.

What is not realistic however, is to have David backham on loan at AC Milan in July, at the start of the season just because he went on loan there 5 months later in January, or to have Luca Toni at Roma when in fact at the time I would be starting my game (June or July, in Germany) he was at Bayern. Those are not cases of 'better knowledge and more realism", it's simply an erosion of realism. If Demichelis was not injured in July and Van der Vaart was available for loan in July, or if Beckham was at LA Galaxy and Luca Toni was at bayern during at this time (the month of July) then when I load up my game in JULY those things should remain as they were in JULY. The fact that Demichelis got injured in August or September and that Van der Vaart later on in the season became a player of slight importance to Real Madrid should not affect the situation as it was in July.

I hate the way SI messes with the databases, I mean come on! Who wants to get into the editor and change everything! I mean why can't they just use an old database when Fabian Delph still played for Leeds?!?!?!?! :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

I hate the way SI messes with the databases, I mean come on! Who wants to get into the editor and change everything! I mean why can't they just use an old database when Fabian Delph still played for Leeds?!?!?!?! :confused: :confused: :confused:

Then they might as well just use the old database when David Beckham was still at Man Utd.

you're not helping at all lol

The difference is that data updates like finances and attribute changes are only more accurate versions of the information. For example, it's not unrealistic that in the 10.3 patch Lukaku will have a better PA than in the original version of the game, it's only more accurate. His PA has not really changed over time, you've only acquired better knowledge and information about it - thus making the game in relation to his stats (as well as other players) more accurate and thus more realistic. The same goes for finances.

Surely that would only be more accurate based on what has happened in real life since the data was created, otherwise it would have been in the last small data update?

Surely that would only be more accurate based on what has happened in real life since the data was created, otherwise it would have been in the last small data update?

It would be more accurate based upon what happened in real life yes. But so what? That's not to say that what a person did somehow changed his abilities, it's only that what he did made it easier for data changes to make his actual abilities more realistic. Again, with Lukaku as an example. His real life PA hasn't changed that much over the past few months - the only thing that has changed is that the scouts working for FM have realized what his actual PA is. Likewise, with finances, it's merely a case of delayed knowledge about the financial situations of the clubs. It's inexcusable to have these huge unrealistic transfer having taken place in the game at completely false times. Again, nobody has explained this to me. Why the hell is Demichelis injured in JULY? Why is Beckham on loan at AC Milan in JUNE?! Why are players who were listed for loan during the summer, no longer listed for loan during that same time period? Did events in December magically affect those players situations 4 months prior?

its simple. Any changes to the database after the game is released should be set to "future". Loans dont start until the date they started in real life. Same goes for transfers. When 10.3 is released, all Jan transfers should be Jan transfers in the game by setting every player to have a future transfer set.

Same goes for injuries but im not sure if you can set a future injury. And that goes for your player could get a serious injury in game before the pre determined injury kicks in so it would override it. Thats another issue.

If you dont want to use the database with the future transfers set then dont. You can use the original database. But for people like me playing the game i want it to be as realistic as it can be. Say if Man Utd sold Berbatov today, in the database for 10.3 he should have a future transfer for 12/01/10. At least then i can use him for 4.5 months like in real life before he buggers off. Why should i be a player down at the start of the season which i then have to replace when in reality (which this game is supposed to replicate) i should have him playing for me until Jan.

It would be more accurate based upon what happened in real life yes. But so what? That's not to say that what a person did somehow changed his abilities, it's only that what he did made it easier for data changes to make his actual abilities more realistic. Again, with Lukaku as an example. His real life PA hasn't changed that much over the past few months - the only thing that has changed is that the scouts working for FM have realized what his actual PA is. Likewise, with finances, it's merely a case of delayed knowledge about the financial situations of the clubs. It's inexcusable to have these huge unrealistic transfer having taken place in the game at completely false times. Again, nobody has explained this to me. Why the hell is Demichelis injured in JULY? Why is Beckham on loan at AC Milan in JUNE?! Why are players who were listed for loan during the summer, no longer listed for loan during that same time period? Did events in December magically affect those players situations 4 months prior?

His actual PA? PA doesn't exist in real life.

PAs are just predictions made by researchers, which often change depending on how a player is performing at the time (especially for young players). By the sounds of it, he is playing better now than he was when the original data was set, which might give him a better PA. If he loses form his PA could go down for the next version.

I completely understand the corrections of mistakes, but shouldn't improvements to data that uses real life information post October not be used in your view? I can't see the problem with the current setup of using a new patch with an old database, other than the small number of data corrections (not improvements).

His actual PA? PA doesn't exist in real life.

PAs are just predictions made by researchers, which often change depending on how a player is performing at the time (especially for young players). By the sounds of it, he is playing better now than he was when the original data was set, which might give him a better PA. If he loses form his PA could go down for the next version.

I completely understand the corrections of mistakes, but shouldn't improvements to data that uses real life information post October not be used in your view? I can't see the problem with the current setup of using a new patch with an old database, other than the small number of data corrections (not improvements).

What the OP is trying to say is that it's unrealistic how future transfers are not used. For example in FM09, in the game it was like Keane never left Tottenham after the winter patch. It would be more realistic if he started at Liverpool and had a future transfer to Tottenham.

So he wants the new DB data corrections + the correct squads/transfers as happened exactly in real life.

You dont have to use the updated data, so aren't being forced in to that choice at all.

There are plenty of editors around for you to use if you think its necessary anyway.

No, you are being forced into it as data corrections and changes to CA/PA and such are tied to the update.

its simple. Any changes to the database after the game is released should be set to "future". Loans dont start until the date they started in real life. Same goes for transfers. When 10.3 is released, all Jan transfers should be Jan transfers in the game by setting every player to have a future transfer set.

Agree.

The database update should have all changes to CA, PA, etc, with these January transfers available either as an option or as future transfers.

When I start a game after 10.3 in July or even February 2009 I don't want to see Mancini at Man City - he wasn't there!

No, you are being forced into it as data corrections and changes to CA/PA and such are tied to the update.

Agree.

The database update should have all changes to CA, PA, etc, with these January transfers available either as an option or as future transfers.

When I start a game after 10.3 in July or even February 2009 I don't want to see Mancini at Man City - he wasn't there!

this is where it becomes complicated though. You start the game in July 09 and Mark Hughes is at Man City. Come December, if City are top of the league, you cant expect Mark Hughes to have a future sacking set to reflect real life. That is why i said it couldnt really work with injuries either. Only transfers.

Could the Mancini thing be implemented if you started in a country where you could start in Jan 10 then IRL Mancini would be incharge. Im sure they can do this with things like world cup draws/groups. Or would this be way to big of a database with all the what ifs?

This is something that has always annoyed me. Especially when I see I have 5 players out on non recall-able loans (why are all pre-set loans non-recallable?!) for which my club is paying 100% of the wages even though the move only happened after tha game start date.

its simple. Any changes to the database after the game is released should be set to "future". Loans dont start until the date they started in real life. Same goes for transfers. When 10.3 is released, all Jan transfers should be Jan transfers in the game by setting every player to have a future transfer set.

Same goes for injuries but im not sure if you can set a future injury. And that goes for your player could get a serious injury in game before the pre determined injury kicks in so it would override it. Thats another issue.

If you dont want to use the database with the future transfers set then dont. You can use the original database. But for people like me playing the game i want it to be as realistic as it can be. Say if Man Utd sold Berbatov today, in the database for 10.3 he should have a future transfer for 12/01/10. At least then i can use him for 4.5 months like in real life before he buggers off. Why should i be a player down at the start of the season which i then have to replace when in reality (which this game is supposed to replicate) i should have him playing for me until Jan.

This would be my choice as well, because i'm a guy who likes to have the teams like they started, but want to have updated player stats...

am I missing something here? isnt the OP's gripe that he cant use the patches (i.e debugged game etc) with previous databases?

and am I wrong in saying this is clearly available to do on fm2010?

just update to 10.2 but pick 10.1 database... simples

The new updates are often the best part of the patches. It keeps the game fresh, even if it is irritating that some players have left the club, or are now on long injuries. It keeps the game where the present is at, which is good in my book.

this is where it becomes complicated though. You start the game in July 09 and Mark Hughes is at Man City. Come December, if City are top of the league, you cant expect Mark Hughes to have a future sacking set to reflect real life. That is why i said it couldnt really work with injuries either. Only transfers.

But if you started the game yourself in July 2009, perhaps Luca Toni would get a run in the Bayern team and start banging them in, and thus make the club look silly by moving to Roma on a free; perhaps Andrea Dossena will get a serious injury and be out for a year, making Napoli's decision to pay £4.5m for him (even more) stupid.

The transfers should be optional, too. I agree completely with the OP that the data updates regarding player stats, finances and so on are desirable, to be more realistic - I often go into the editor myself to tweak things I consider a bit off anyway - but that the transfers and injuries don't help. They could just make the patch with two versions of the updated database - one with and one without the future transfers and injuries included - so that the player could choose for themselves based on personal preference.

am I missing something here? isnt the OP's gripe that he cant use the patches (i.e debugged game etc) with previous databases?

and am I wrong in saying this is clearly available to do on fm2010?

just update to 10.2 but pick 10.1 database... simples

Missed the point.

The 10.2 database won't have the corrections and CA/PA adjustments of the 10.3 database.

If you pick the 10.3 database, you get the corrections and adjustments, but you are also lumbered with all of the January transfers.

Since the game starts in June/July it's annoying to have the subsequent real life transfer window imposed upon you.

Imagine Utd accept £60m for Rooney to servive debt this month. On 10.3, Rooney will be gone at the start of the season, regardless of the fact that you, as manager in-game by January may well not choose to accept such an offer.

There should be an option to have the updated database without the future transfers from real life done 6 months early.

this is where it becomes complicated though. You start the game in July 09 and Mark Hughes is at Man City. Come December, if City are top of the league, you cant expect Mark Hughes to have a future sacking set to reflect real life. That is why i said it couldnt really work with injuries either. Only transfers.

I agree, transfers only. Sackings and injuries are subject to the game's world, which we enter mid-2009. If Man City do well, Hughes stays, if they do badly, he may get sacked, but that's down to the game running it's course.

I agree, transfers only. Sackings and injuries are subject to the game's world, which we enter mid-2009. If Man City do well, Hughes stays, if they do badly, he may get sacked, but that's down to the game running it's course.

But so are transfers!

As I pointed out above, if a player's form in the game between August and December is different to real life, it would make a real-life January transfer less realistic. If Luca Toni reaches the new year on my game scoring for fun, Bayern are not going to let him go to Roma on a free.

Simple solution: implement ability, finance and so on changes first, save that as one version of the database, then add transfers, injuries etc and save it as another, include both with the patch and then the player has the option to choose what they want to do. It doesn't seem to be a particularly tricky or roundabout solution to me, anyway, but then again I'm not a programmer...

Ok, we misunderstand eachother.

I'd rather have what you just said, along with a 'database changes' file for those who want the transfers.

Actually having an injuries file is an interesting thought, because I'm sure noone would use it for the following two reasons.

1. The annual hysterical injury bug furore each year suggests that most people want injuries removed from the game completely.

2. Said injuries are from January, and the game starts in mid 2009 or earlier. Surely they'd then be out of place.

Either way, I agree in principle. It's time the update was not tied to transfers, but then I'm sure I raised this last december and, with the greatest respect to SI, the responses seemed to suggest that such an approach involved looking beyond the end of their nose.

That said, it's a very different database editor this year, meaning that the changes we are suggesting are somewhat easy to implement.

Best way around it is to load a league with a January or February 2010 start date.

Too much work for SI to create different databases, one with transfers one without.

Best way around it is to load a league with a January or February 2010 start date.

Too much work for SI to create different databases, one with transfers one without.

Disagree. Why should we have to start the game 6 months late for a little realism?

Further, it's not remotely too much work. Transfers simply get saved under a separate XML or BDC - job done.

If you do that, doesn't that mean you have pretty much nothing to do for another 6 months until the season actually kicks off in europe for 10/11?

If you do that, doesn't that mean you have pretty much nothing to do for another 6 months until the season actually kicks off in europe for 10/11?

No, that would happen if you started in early 09 as the league final standings are already in the game.

Starting later is just as bad as you basically start the game midway through a season with all fixtures up to that point simulated.

Surely it's not that hard to just make 10.3a and 10.3b, one with transfers and one without.

edit: And if the transfer is not going to be included, then you could make it a bit easier for a particular player to be transferred to the particular club by manipulating their importance at club, happiness and manager targets.. etc.

So that there's no guarantee of it happening, but a fairly good chance of it if the player's performance/importance/happiness doesn't improve.

Disagree. Why should we have to start the game 6 months late for a little realism?

Further, it's not remotely too much work. Transfers simply get saved under a separate XML or BDC - job done.

Well it's the only way around it really, up to you if you wish to play like that. If it's that much of a problem that you want the data to be up to date on the date you start, why not play with the old data? It's not that it's wrong, players are just rated based on the previous season, not this season and last season.

And it's not that simple - SI have to test the data as well remember. Head Researchers would have to look after two versions of the new database for each patch. Then there's the confusion it causes over what should and shouldn't be included - loans extended in January but started in November, injuries part way through the season etc. If it was that simple SI would have probably tried it by now.

His actual PA? PA doesn't exist in real life.

*sigh*

Potential ability DOES exist in real life - PA as a number which represents this ability does not.

I completely understand the corrections of mistakes, but shouldn't improvements to data that uses real life information post October not be used in your view?

It depends. If the data from October represents more or less the situation as it was in July, then I'm fine with it. Which is what in fact happens. When researches update a players ability ratings based upon what they see post October, what they are in fact doing is essentially adjusting his ability to what it should have been in July (given that ability doesn't change THAT much over a few months). I'm fine with that. What I don't like is the fact that transfer or injury events which happened after July (and as far forward as February) have an effect on where the player is or what his injury status was IN July.

What the OP is trying to say is that it's unrealistic how future transfers are not used. For example in FM09, in the game it was like Keane never left Tottenham after the winter patch. It would be more realistic if he started at Liverpool and had a future transfer to Tottenham.

So he wants the new DB data corrections + the correct squads/transfers as happened exactly in real life.

Actually, my main disagreement is with the fact that future events have already taken place in July. I don't like the fact that Luca Toni, for example, will be on loan at Roma when I start my Bayern game in JULY (at which time he was still at Bayern) just because five months after July, he happened to seal a move there. Also disturbing is the situation where players who were fit in June and July but got injured in October, November, December, etc... show up as injured during the month of July. For a game which prides itself on realism, this is a huge blunder. And given the numerous transfers and injuries that occur, this is in fact a series of mistakes.

Best way around it is to load a league with a January or February 2010 start date.

Why should I have to start my game in mid season just for a little realism? That would be even worse than the current situation.

Well it's the only way around it really, up to you if you wish to play like that. If it's that much of a problem that you want the data to be up to date on the date you start, why not play with the old data? It's not that it's wrong, players are just rated based on the previous season, not this season and last season.

It is quite wrong, as a matter of fact. Just to use one example, Bayern's actual finances state that they are in fact 180 million euros less in debt than how the original game has it. Moreover, there are numerous (realistic) tweaks which come with the new data updates which I'd like to keep.

And it's not that simple - SI have to test the data as well remember. Head Researchers would have to look after two versions of the new database for each patch. Then there's the confusion it causes over what should and shouldn't be included - loans extended in January but started in November, injuries part way through the season etc. If it was that simple SI would have probably tried it by now.

It's not nearly as complicated as you're making it sound. Pretty much all they'd have to do is not change the 'transfer' or 'loan listing' information in the updated data patch.

Well it's the only way around it really, up to you if you wish to play like that. If it's that much of a problem that you want the data to be up to date on the date you start, why not play with the old data? It's not that it's wrong, players are just rated based on the previous season, not this season and last season.

And it's not that simple - SI have to test the data as well remember. Head Researchers would have to look after two versions of the new database for each patch. Then there's the confusion it causes over what should and shouldn't be included - loans extended in January but started in November, injuries part way through the season etc. If it was that simple SI would have probably tried it by now.

Wrong.

SI couldn't do it until now because the editor didn't support it.

Now, all the changes to individuals, clubs, etc can be changed in the actual 10.3 database.

The transfers can (as has been explained very clearly several times) simply be saved as an xml or dbc in exactly the same way as a created competition.

There's no extra work in the slightest, it also means that transfers can be work on without the need to constantly change the core database. Potentially, transfers from different parts of the world can be worked on separately and simply merged into a single XML pre patch release which is even easier for SI in terms of getting the update ready.

The new editor is your friend. Nothing, nothing at all, is difficult.

It doesn't even affect the people who don't care about transfers as they will be there if they want them.

It's Win/Win, little effort, more happy customers.

If a player suffers a serious injury after October which results in his PA being lowered, would you want the original PA or the new one? What about players retiring through injury?

We don't actually use the data editor ourselves.

shouldnt you start then considering how easy these transfer files would be to make. Or is your editor even easier to use than this one? If it is why has this never been done before. If its easy enough to do with our editor then surely theres no excuse for SI not to do it if they want the game to be as real as possible

We don't actually use the data editor ourselves.

Well that figures, although I'd assumed that we had a cut down version of what SI uses.

Presumably SI has something considerably more flexible and powerful, I'd have thought such changes were still relatively easy?

If a player suffers a serious injury after October which results in his PA being lowered, would you want the original PA or the new one? What about players retiring through injury?

If I'm starting the game before his injury, then I'd want the original PA - but obviously if I'm starting the game after his injury, I'd want his injury and subsequent PA changes taken into account (this can be during the next version of the game or whatever). Likewise, with players retiring through an injury which happened AFTER July should still be in the game DURING July. It's just common sense, and it's really very simple: all I want is player transfers and injuries to be as they were during the time period in which one starts their game. It's not a 'radical' request by any means, it's simply a request for realism.

Moreover, as has already been noted - SI can just make version 'a' and 'b' of the patch wherin one version has data updates as they are now, while the other has data updates which reflect the situation at the given times. Simple. Both sides can be catered to, and if somebody wants to have a player injured post-July having been already retired in July, then they can choose the version of the patch which allows for this.

If I'm starting the game before his injury, then I'd want the original PA - but obviously if I'm starting the game after his injury, I'd want his injury and subsequent PA changes taken into account (this can be during the next version of the game or whatever). Likewise, with players retiring through an injury which happened AFTER July should still be in the game DURING July. It's just common sense, and it's really very simple: all I want is player transfers and injuries to be as they were during the time period in which one starts their game. It's not a 'radical' request by any means, it's simply a request for realism.

Moreover, as has already been noted - SI can just make version 'a' and 'b' of the patch wherin one version has data updates as they are now, while the other has data updates which reflect the situation at the given times. Simple. Both sides can be catered to, and if somebody wants to have a player injured post-July having been already retired in July, then they can choose the version of the patch which allows for this.

This

Well said.