My views on where FM should aim

I think FM is a great game. This post is just intended to show what I think would be a good step in FM's path in the future and hopefully make a small contribution.

The best way to describe where FM should aim is: dynamism. I believe the game structure should evolve as you play. I'll give a simple example to show what I mean by this.

Let's say you start your FM career as a manager in a peruvian club (first country that came to mind, don't mean to offend anyone). You win the peruvian league consecutive years, you win the Copa Libertadores and you are hired to manage Peru's national side. Let's say you are a really amazing manager, and you win the Copa America with Peru. And now let's say you are an incredible manager and you win the World Cup with Peru. All the while, you are still managing and winning with your peruvian first division club.

So what's the problem? The problem is what comes next. That is: nothing. Nothing really changes in the game. Your club will probably have lots of money by now, but your league's reputation will still be low, and will always remain that way. Sure, by now you could sign for Barcelona, but that's the same league that was important before Peru won everything in the world.

In contrast, in real life, the English Premiership was mostly ignored by good players 10 years ago. And now? That's clearly changed. And if a smaller country, say Portugal, started winning everything in Europe, year after year, with their clubs winning every continental competition, their league would probably stop being secondary in importance. It would attract investment, better players, better TV coverage...it would "grow".

And that's where I think FM should improve. Make it dynamic. Turning a small english side into a European powerhouse is fun. But I believe it would be even more rewarding if the league you are playing in was able to change in time: for better or worse.

So if you are winning everything, great players want to come and play in your league, some clubs get bought by investors, new stadiums are built, sponsors money increases...On the other hand, if your clubs are performing poorly for a long time, talent starts to drift away into better performing and more money soaked leagues.

You might say: "but it's not realistic to think Rooney would end up playing in a peruvian team". And I would tell you, "it's also not realistic for Real Madrid to hire an unknown 33 year old manager, but that is exactly why FM is great. The premises are not realistic, but the consequences are". So although it's not realistic to think Peru would win everything every year, it's less realistic to think that if Peru actually won everything, nothing else would change.

In summary, make things change. Maybe in 30 years we will all be following Austrian football every weekend. Who knows? And that's exactly the point. I don't know, but in the real world it's possible, and that's where FM should aim.

I think FM is a great game. This post is just intended to show what I think would be a good step in FM's path in the future and hopefully make a small contribution.

The best way to describe where FM should aim is: dynamism. I believe the game structure should evolve as you play. I'll give a simple example to show what I mean by this.

Let's say you start your FM career as a manager in a peruvian club (first country that came to mind, don't mean to offend anyone). You win the peruvian league consecutive years, you win the Copa Libertadores and you are hired to manage Peru's national side. Let's say you are a really amazing manager, and you win the Copa America with Peru. And now let's say you are an incredible manager and you win the World Cup with Peru. All the while, you are still managing and winning with your peruvian first division club.

So what's the problem? The problem is what comes next. That is: nothing. Nothing really changes in the game. Your club will probably have lots of money by now, but your league's reputation will still be low, and will always remain that way. Sure, by now you could sign for Barcelona, but that's the same league that was important before Peru won everything in the world.

In contrast, in real life, the English Premiership was mostly ignored by good players 10 years ago. And now? That's clearly changed. And if a smaller country, say Portugal, started winning everything in Europe, year after year, with their clubs winning every continental competition, their league would probably stop being secondary in importance. It would attract investment, better players, better TV coverage...it would "grow".

And that's where I think FM should improve. Make it dynamic. Turning a small english side into a European powerhouse is fun. But I believe it would be even more rewarding if the league you are playing in was able to change in time: for better or worse.

So if you are winning everything, great players want to come and play in your league, some clubs get bought by investors, new stadiums are built, sponsors money increases...On the other hand, if your clubs are performing poorly for a long time, talent starts to drift away into better performing and more money soaked leagues.

You might say: "but it's not realistic to think Rooney would end up playing in a peruvian team". And I would tell you, "it's also not realistic for Real Madrid to hire an unknown 33 year old manager, but that is exactly why FM is great. The premises are not realistic, but the consequences are". So although it's not realistic to think Peru would win everything every year, it's less realistic to think that if Peru actually won everything, nothing else would change.

In summary, make things change. Maybe in 30 years we will all be following Austrian football every weekend. Who knows? And that's exactly the point. I don't know, but in the real world it's possible, and that's where FM should aim.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the English Premiership was mostly ignored by good players 10 years ago </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

10 years ago, The English Prem probably had some of the best players the world has ever seen. (Bergkamp, Cantona, Gasgoine* Schemichael, Giggs, Keane, Vieira, Adams, Zola) - and many others. I think where you're mistaken, is that 10 years ago, there wasn't the money to go buying the big names, and the fact that managers prided themselves on home grown talent, rather than looking oversees.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And if a smaller country, say Portugal, started winning everything in Europe, year after year </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Porto, anyone? 2003 UEFA Cup, 2004 Champions League, Portugal ALWAYS do well in the National Tournaments, they have a squad full of great players, too.

Despite that, I do agree that League reputation is a shambles, and have had many a conversation about it before.

Basically the point of all that was that league reputation should be dynamic - I agree so long as it is slowly dynamic. In real life these changes come about over a period of say 10 years so change will be slow in that way.

As for the example of Peru, I think that is a bit different as it is on a totally different continent and players moving across continents to play is more rare than moving within a continent with the obvious exception of Brazilians and Argentines coming to Spain and other European leagues. One big reason for that is money rather than reputation (although that obviously plays a big part). No matter how many times a Peruvian club wins South American competitions, the Peruvian league will not be sloshing with the kind of money that can attract players from outside South America.

Also your example of the Peruvian national team followed by your example of England is a little flawed. The English league has risen in reputation purely because of money and the knock-on effect that has on making English clubs competitive in Europe. This as happened in spite of the total failure of the England national team rather than as a result of some great success of the national team.

Generally though I agree on the point of dynamic reputation of leagues. Personally I think reputation (of clubs in particular) plays too big a role in certain aspects of the game, but league reputation is certainly failry fundamental.

I agree with most of the corrections made, although not with all, but that's not the central problem or point of this post.

So if you do agree that a dynamic league reputation is fundamental, what do you think should be the determinants of it? What factors would make a league's reputation change over time?

Thanks for all the input

I have the same problem in Belgium. I made Turnhout the leading team in europe. But nothing has changed in Belgium.

Still the same tv revenue, still the same sponsors, and no top players want to come or will stay at Turnhout ...

It would be an extra challenge for the people who play this game for a long time. The fm world has to be more alive (even its still a game) there has to be a bigger reward for achieving things. The media should praise you to death, the status off the league should change if you achieved something like that.

I should be an icon in this virtual world. For the people who hate us complainers. I have to make clear that I love this game. I'm playing it already since the first CM and its the only game that I play. This game is turning from game to simulation and thats a great development. I want to feel like a real footballmanager for 1 hour a day. I just want to give feedback about this game so SI could make this game better.

As a Response on Lucho_

1 Your achievements in Europe and Worldwide

2 Money

3 Country size

One problem is that different countries have different finances anyway in real life - FM isn't complex enough to model a detailed financial model - e.g. in some countries TV money will always be low, gate receipts are always low, player wages will always be relatively low because of the country's economy.

i agree that reputation gain should be enhanced in some way, though i'm having trouble figuring out the mechanics of it since i don't really have a save game editor where i can check actual numbers.

case in point though, i have a 25-26 year old dutch striker, gets the world cup golden boot, scores a hat trick in the final which his team wins, and has won the champions league best player award for 2 years running. his reputation? continental, not world class.

i would revamp reputation slightly, maybe i'm doing something wrong but that doesn't quite seem realistic to me.

also i would work on the confidence feature (think that would go without saying though), there's quite a few scenarios where the fans get upset when they really shouldn't, or evaluate a player with unrealistic expectations.

Hi Lucho,

A very interesting and very well put together piece of work. I agree totally in what you are saying, and believe you have expressed how much a small change in the present reputation etc in FM 2006,07,08 could make the game have so much more promise and enjoyment.

It would be appreciated if anybody at S.I could/would be prepared to share with us if anything like Lucho has just posted, is actually being implemented or even thought about for future FM games??

I've posted on a similar thread recently, and as I did there, I'll again highlight Scottish football as an example.

In the past 5 years, Scottish football has risen in the eyes of people around Europe, but I'll admit, only slightly.

This can mainly be put down to both sides of the Old Firm reaching the Uefa Cup final in recent times, but also their results in the C. League. Celtic have made the last 16 twice, and Rangers once, and on the way between them they have clocked up victories over AC Milan, Manchester Utd, Lyon, Benfica, and others. Also in their Uefa Cup runs they have eliminated Werder Bremen, Fiorentina, Barcelona and Liverpool.

Now we are at a point where Arsenal are looking at Celtic's goalkeeper Boruc. Totenham spent a reported £9 million on Rangers' defender Alan Hutton. Real Madrid are rumoured to be preparing a bid for Hibs' Stephen Fletcher. Shaun Maloney and Stilian Petrov moved from Celtic to play for Aston Villa. Henrik Larsson left to win the C. League with Barcelona and the Premiership with Man Utd.

My point is that in the part, Real Madrid would barely even look at players in Scotland, occasionaly one might be stumbled upon by chance playing in Europe but Hibs havn't.

I think it should increase, but slowly.

I believe in Europe the 'coefficents' have an impact, if your club gets better scores, it will boost your nations one, and the higher the coefficent the more European cup spaces your league gets.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PaulHartman71:

I believe in Europe the 'coefficents' have an impact, if your club gets better scores, it will boost your nations one, and the higher the coefficent the more European cup spaces your league gets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But this doesn't increase the standard of league reputation. They are separate entities, and from what I understand, league rep is Stagnant.

Just re-read my post after having to finish it in a rush earlier.

I realise it immediately fades away and that it makes no sense near the end...

My point is that in the past, Real Madrid would barely even look at players in Scotland. They may occasionaly stumbled upon one by chance playing in Europe, but this is not the case for Fletcher. This means that bigger clubs are scouting Scottish teams.

To use an example from my FM save of a coutry who's rep should be higher is Russia. In my save, there are currently 3 russian sides playing in the C. League Quarter Finals, (Zenit, Spartak Moscow and CSKA Moscow) and Spartak have already won the Uefa Cup (I'm in 2020 btw)

This coupled with the amount of money in Russia, the league should be approaching the same rep level as the Dutch and Portugese leagues, but it is not.

Sorry for the haste in my last post.

I disagree with the idea that the league reps should change. Because you are playing a game, it is impossible to fully immerse yourself in the football as a person does in real life. The speed which you go through the game makes it impossible to keep up with everything else.

Thus, in your previous example, after managing in Peru for several years, you look to make a move up in a new league and new team. Problem: the leagues are not the same and you don't know where would be best to go.

If the game allows for dynamic changing, then the long term game will probably be ruined for most players. A static league reputation gives a basis for things 10,20, or more years into the game. Losing this would make the game as a whole very difficult to continue to play.

lonestar, i have to disagree.

For a start, everyone here agrees it should be a gradual change, so it would be at least 30 years before the Premiership's rep decreased enough for it to not be a desirable league, for example.

And if your worried about losing track of the best sides, then it's a simple case of a table being put in stating the rep of every league in the world. This could be interesting as the tep could be calculated using the individual rep of the teams in that league, the averge rep of the players (or the 1st team players, anyway), and the league's success in continental comps etc. Also the money in the league.

I agree that club/league reputations should change slowly! I am playing with Fenerbahce and I always lead them to Champions Cup 1/8 final, but can't get any further because it's impossible to attract good players! Good players will rather choose kinda AZ Alkmaar, Leverkusen or even Derby not my club!

Thanks for all the great posts and examples.

I'm happy to see this is an issue that more people agree on. I'm sure SI have considered implementing this and it must not be easy to do.

I do believe that money should play a much bigger role in the reputation of a league.

So maybe the path should be: get lots of achievements by teams in a specific league, money starts flowing into that league, better stadiums, sponsors and players arrive and then it's a virtuous circle.

I agree though that in England the money came before the achievements but I'm not sure this could be really implemented in the game.

Yeh i sort of see what you mean like say for england their clubs can afford better players as they get big attendances based on the fact that their are more people in the country more willing to go and watch football and play football. This also attracts investment and means more chance of finding quality english players. The scottish league used in comparison often gets put across as a laughing stock but based on its ranking compared to population of the country i guarantee you it is probably at the top of the list compared to the others. This is cause it is maximising and probably acheving the best it can on what it has got. e.g. rangers uefa cup final, aberdeen and celtic european run and how national team did against the two world cup finalists in qualifiers. It also has less chance to find quality players as less to choose from. However who is to say that the scottish population wont rise and attendances shoot up meaning more income and making the league more attractable to investors? An increase in population would also mean more chance of quality players. It would be kl if it wasn't predictable and after a few seasons maybe their was a change like a league change format increasing teams in league or more chance of growing attendances and better players coming through. After say 2015 i think realism goes out the window with fm so it wouldn't really matter and some changes to format might make games more exciting and certainly make them unpredictable and more exciting.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

I've posted on a similar thread recently, and as I did there, I'll again highlight Scottish football as an example.

In the past 5 years, Scottish football has risen in the eyes of people around Europe, but I'll admit, only slightly.

This can mainly be put down to both sides of the Old Firm reaching the Uefa Cup final in recent times, but also their results in the C. League. Celtic have made the last 16 twice, and Rangers once, and on the way between them they have clocked up victories over AC Milan, Manchester Utd, Lyon, Benfica, and others. Also in their Uefa Cup runs they have eliminated Werder Bremen, Fiorentina, Barcelona and Liverpool.

Now we are at a point where Arsenal are looking at Celtic's goalkeeper Boruc. Totenham spent a reported £9 million on Rangers' defender Alan Hutton. Real Madrid are rumoured to be preparing a bid for Hibs' Stephen Fletcher. Shaun Maloney and Stilian Petrov moved from Celtic to play for Aston Villa. Henrik Larsson left to win the C. League with Barcelona and the Premiership with Man Utd.

My point is that in the part, Real Madrid would barely even look at players in Scotland, occasionaly one might be stumbled upon by chance playing in Europe but Hibs havn't.

I think it should increase, but slowly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've hit upon the very problem with rising reputation that I though of when read the OP.

First off, I'll say that I completley agree with what has been said in regards to seeing league reputation rising. It's a must. For me, I'll be dissapointed if it's not in FM09. At the same time though, the thinking of the big teams in the transfer market needs to be given a re-think to fit in with the rise in a smaller leagues reputation.

Look at the 2004 CL final between Porto and Monaco for example. Both teams came from nowhere to make the final, with Porto winning. Both teams were capable of bringing better players then they would normally expect, but at the same time, they lost many of their star players to Europes elite. Whilst Porto still qualify for the second round regularly, they certainly don't look like a threat, and Monaco are nowhere to be seen.

Now in FM, this quite probably wouldn't be the case. With the rather poor transfer market, it's dead easy to keep hold of your players after doing well in a small league and carry on being successful, which has proved difficult in reality. So in addition to seeing the league reputation rise, we need to see an increased intelligence from the AI in the transfer market so that we see the big teams competing for the signatures of the standout players.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bongo-Bongo:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archy-91:

I've posted on a similar thread recently, and as I did there, I'll again highlight Scottish football as an example.

In the past 5 years, Scottish football has risen in the eyes of people around Europe, but I'll admit, only slightly.

This can mainly be put down to both sides of the Old Firm reaching the Uefa Cup final in recent times, but also their results in the C. League. Celtic have made the last 16 twice, and Rangers once, and on the way between them they have clocked up victories over AC Milan, Manchester Utd, Lyon, Benfica, and others. Also in their Uefa Cup runs they have eliminated Werder Bremen, Fiorentina, Barcelona and Liverpool.

Now we are at a point where Arsenal are looking at Celtic's goalkeeper Boruc. Totenham spent a reported £9 million on Rangers' defender Alan Hutton. Real Madrid are rumoured to be preparing a bid for Hibs' Stephen Fletcher. Shaun Maloney and Stilian Petrov moved from Celtic to play for Aston Villa. Henrik Larsson left to win the C. League with Barcelona and the Premiership with Man Utd.

My point is that in the part, Real Madrid would barely even look at players in Scotland, occasionaly one might be stumbled upon by chance playing in Europe but Hibs havn't.

I think it should increase, but slowly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've hit upon the very problem with rising reputation that I though of when read the OP.

First off, I'll say that I completley agree with what has been said in regards to seeing league reputation rising. It's a must. For me, I'll be dissapointed if it's not in FM09. At the same time though, the thinking of the big teams in the transfer market needs to be given a re-think to fit in with the rise in a smaller leagues reputation.

Look at the 2004 CL final between Porto and Monaco for example. Both teams came from nowhere to make the final, with Porto winning. Both teams were capable of bringing better players then they would normally expect, but at the same time, they lost many of their star players to Europes elite. Whilst Porto still qualify for the second round regularly, they certainly don't look like a threat, and Monaco are nowhere to be seen.

Now in FM, this quite probably wouldn't be the case. With the rather poor transfer market, it's dead easy to keep hold of your players after doing well in a small league and carry on being successful, which has proved difficult in reality. So in addition to seeing the league reputation rise, we need to see an increased intelligence from the AI in the transfer market so that we see the big teams competing for the signatures of the standout players. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make a strong point, and while this would need to be handled delicately to make sure it works, as you say the issue with Porto and Monaco, although they lost a lot of quality players, they recieved a lot of money for them, and as they'de been in the C. League final, decent players were interested and now the money was there to bring them in.

This then brings us to good management. Perhaps if "the special one" hadn't ****** off to Chelsea, Porto would still be at the top.

If the bigger clubs were ready to swoop after a small side's good season, this could also motivate you to renew contracts early, so you'll at least get some money for them. I find in FM that I can let players contracts go to the last month before renewing them, and generally am not punished.