Goalkeeper Training Progress?

I have posted this in the bug forum, but havent had any response. I wonder if it is indeed a bug, or something wrong with my save.

Notice the complete lack of training progress in the bottom right corner. It's the same for every goalkeeper in my squad. I do have two goalkeeping coaches training and the workload is on "light". What's going on? I think there actually is some training progress, but the interface doesnt show it. Has anyone else experienced this?

What is their personality?

I've noticed my GKs are exactly the same as your pic.

It might have something to do with gks not doing def mid and att training

That is where the "Overall" levels are misleading, as it is simply a sum of all the categories of Training you are doing. The goalkeepers "Overall Progress" is low because he is not Training in attacking, defending or shooting. Compare this to his Progress in the Goalkeeping and Aerobic categories which will be "High".

When his Overall Progress is low and certain Category Progress is high then you are reshaping a player quite drastically rather than training him relatively equally in all areas of his game. Therefore his Overall development is low while his development in key Categories will be high to intense. This is ideal for developed players that are close to their PA. You won't get the minute potential benefit to CA from Training the player at a high Overall progress because he is already at his PA, therefore you wont lose the minute potential benefit to CA if you train him in a highly specialised schedule because he cannot gain anymore CA.

A high Overall Workload and Progress is only really useful for underdeveloped players, youngsters, or utility "squad" players that might not get many games but are used to cover gaps and fill in for a large number of roles and positions. There is evidence to suggest that in some way large Overall Training levels or progress adds a slight boost to CA gain for players, while at the same time players that are losing CA through not playing regularly will not experience a dramatic collapse in particular attribute categories if training everything equally.

At your particular level of football, your player Riena should be very close to his PA through continual match experience, therefore a high overall Level or Progress will not benefit his CA nor will it even out a loss of CA as he wont lose any very often. What a high Overall Level or Progress in Training will do is prevent you from freeing up CA in untrained Categories to distribute into his key Categories.

For that particular player, Reina, your Schedule looks ideal. However his Overall Progress makes it look weak, when it is not. It is not a bug, it is just a misleading way of showing the information easily available, combined to a complete lack of explaining what else is necessary to know very easily ingame.

That schedule may not be so good for your second choice or youth goalkeepers however, for the reasons I have stated above.

Thanks you all for your thoughts on this.

Look at Silviu Lung jr. my young promising goalkeeper who is on the same schedule. The difference between CA and PA is 30. His training progress is even worse.

Now look at Steven Gerrard who is at his peak.

Maybe the reason for lack of training progress for my goalkeepers are because of no training in some categories? Should I be worried? I'm confused by this. I will try to create a schedule with some training in all categories and see what happens.

Look at the Training Report for your young goalkeeper. Your coach thinks the goalkeeper has made some progress as a footballer in the last 3 months. Look at the Training Report for Gerrard, he has made no improvement in the same time.

Gerrard is close to his PA and you are Training him almost equally in every category. Because he is close to his PA he cannot naturally get better as in get more CA. Because you are Training all of his categories equally the only change to his attributes can come from the natural growth of his mental attributes and natural decline of his physical attributes as he gets older. Your training is doing nothing to this player other than keep his attribute changes through Training to zero. Gerrard cannot improve he can only adapt and your training schedule is making sure his rate of adaption is as low as possible.

Your young goalkeeper is not near his PA, this means he can improve as a player by gaining CA. All of the CA that is distributed through Training when he gains CA is going into his Strength, Aerobic, Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control and Set Pieces. Nothing is going into his Composure and Concentration. This player is being moulded into a strong goalkeeper from the beginning but is missing out on some crucial attributes early in his career.

The only Training Schedule you have posted so far that I would say is correct was for Reina, an older Goalkeeper near his PA that is being moulded into a better goalkeeper. Your young goalkeeper is too young for specialised remoulding Training as he has to develop other important attributes, and Gerrard is too old for a General Schedule unless you want to try and keep him exactly how he is for as long possible.

You are making the mistake of thinking a high Overall Progress means a player is getting "better" training. It means only that a player is Training every category to a high level. Overall Progress means the progress of all a players Attributes. All of Gerrards attributes are going up by the same amount, which ends up equaling out at zero because he has no more CA to gain.

It's not something you should necessarily worry about.

Check out this profile, and select "show recent attribute changes". If, for the young goalkeeper, his attributes are improving, then all is well.

I'd suggest bringing down strength training, which offers little of benefit, and unless you want him taking your free kicks, which I very much doubt, his set pieces training should come right down. Also, unless you are playing a very short passing game, I'd completely drop his ball control training. The final five categories are of little or no benefit to goalkeepers, and you only need a little (low end of medium) strength training. Having these low allow you to train the attributes that actually have an impact in anything other than one offs, which are all found in the goalkeeping, tactics and aerobic sections.

Gerrard is close to his PA and you are Training him almost equally in every category. Because he is close to his PA he cannot naturally get better as in get more CA. Because you are Training all of his categories equally the only change to his attributes can come from the natural growth of his mental attributes and natural decline of his physical attributes as he gets older. Your training is doing nothing to this player other than keep his attribute changes through Training to zero. Gerrard cannot improve he can only adapt and your training schedule is making sure his rate of adaption is as low as possible.

Maybe I have not fully understood the concept of training in Football Manager. For players at peak CA I thought it would be best to apply a general traning schedule to "maintain" their current level for as long as possible. Are you suggesting that I can "redistribute" some of his CA points? For instance making him even more creative and technically adept by increasing Ball Control training and heavily reducing other training categories?

Your young goalkeeper is not near his PA, this means he can improve as a player by gaining CA. All of the CA that is distributed through Training when he gains CA is going into his Strength, Aerobic, Goalkeeping, Tactics, Ball Control and Set Pieces. Nothing is going into his Composure and Concentration. This player is being moulded into a strong goalkeeper from the beginning but is missing out on some crucial attributes early in his career.

Since patch 10.2 'composure' and 'concentration' has been moved to the Goalkeeping category for goalkeepers, so that shouldn't be a problem. From what I understand it isn't necessary to train goalkeepers in Attacking, Defending or Shooting.

You are making the mistake of thinking a high Overall Progress means a player is getting "better" training. It means only that a player is Training every category to a high level. Overall Progress means the progress of all a players Attributes. All of Gerrards attributes are going up by the same amount, which ends up equaling out at zero because he has no more CA to gain.

Hmmm. I've clearly been missing something I suppose.

It's not something you should necessarily worry about.

Check out this profile, and select "show recent attribute changes". If, for the young goalkeeper, his attributes are improving, then all is well.

I'd suggest bringing down strength training, which offers little of benefit, and unless you want him taking your free kicks, which I very much doubt, his set pieces training should come right down. Also, unless you are playing a very short passing game, I'd completely drop his ball control training. The final five categories are of little or no benefit to goalkeepers, and you only need a little (low end of medium) strength training. Having these low allow you to train the attributes that actually have an impact in anything other than one offs, which are all found in the goalkeeping, tactics and aerobic sections.

Yes, I suppose you are right. Ball Control training only affects 'first touch' and 'technique'. Set Pieces training only affects 'free kick taking'.

This means I can really pump the workload of the three most important training categories.

Maybe I have not fully understood the concept of training in Football Manager. For players at peak CA I thought it would be best to apply a general traning schedule to "maintain" their current level for as long as possible. Are you suggesting that I can "redistribute" some of his CA points? For instance making him even more creative and technically adept by increasing Ball Control training and heavily reducing other training categories?

Training accounts for between 30% to 50% of CA distribution between attributes. Even if one of your players is at his PA level, over time his physical attributes will start to shed CA while his mental attributes become more receptive to CA. A player will start to lose his pace, acceleration, strength, stamina etc. while his anticipation, concentration, composure, teamwork etc. starts to increase. This will happen naturally due to the mechanics of attributes themselves. A players preferred position has a similar effect on attributes. An AMC will naturally gain CA in key AMC attributes and not in key DC attributes.

It is ontop of this inbuilt natural evolution of attributes that Training works. You can reinforce or counteract the tendency of a player to develop his key position attributes, you can take advantage of the different ages for players when different attribute groups become most/least receptive to CA, for example training youngsters heavily in Physical attributes when physical attributes are easiest to increase and less likely to decrease naturally, or perhaps Training a veteran only in Strength to prevent his Stamina dropping as much as possible while also giving him the best possible condition for the next match, all of which stops his CA from dropping from lack of match experience.

Since patch 10.2 'composure' and 'concentration' has been moved to the Goalkeeping category for goalkeepers, so that shouldn't be a problem. From what I understand it isn't necessary to train goalkeepers in Attacking, Defending or Shooting.

I didn't know that and that is a great change to the game.

Hmmm. I've clearly been missing something I suppose.

Almost everyone has. Understanding the basic principles of training only leads to needing to understand the mechanics of attributes and player development. This is another huge area of detail, and that detail is only hinted at by the game. For example Physical, Mental and Technical Attributes all follow the same pattern of easy increase followed by difficult increase followed by unstoppable decline, however they all happen at different ages which forces declining physical attribute points into receptive mental attributes which provides the simulation of age and maturity.

While it is great to have a once rampant winger turn into an attacking midfield genius due to the games natural manipulation of attributes, it is no use if this guy ends up with 5 stamina and cannot play ten minutes of a match, for then his match experience will decline and as his match experience declines so does his CA. If his CA declines then the first and worst hit will be his physical attributes which includes his stamina...

Training and Player Development is a huge aspect of the game and one of the most closely guarded secrets the game has. My own Training sticky in the T&TT forum updated about 6 months ago is naive and badly out of touch with fact, but it remains the best holistic guide to Training in these forums.

Great stuff, SFraser. Thanks for taking the time.

This clearly is a part of the game I need to get a better understanding of. Time to dig in.

Training your goalie is a major challenge, and it is one of the areas, where preseason training does wonders. Just make a schedule for him with 13 notches in aerobic and in strength, 13 notches in ball control and in tactics and 20 notches in goalkeeping for 2 months. After 2 months go to one of the better known goalie schedules.

And yeah, this works equally well from 18 up until 38 year olds.