Suggestion for FM09: Overview vs. Attributes

Hi! After all this hassle with CA and attributes and whatnot...

What would you guys think of an option to hide the player attributes completely and only show the overview graph?

After the 8.0.2 patch I have started to judge the players more by how they perform than by their attributes. Of course some information is need about players' attributes and I think the current overview screen is great for that.

Now, what I'd like to have is the possibility to set it so in the preferences that only the overview is used and the player attributes are never shown. This would be for the network games and for those players who would like to use the overview, but can't resist taking a look at the attributes.

The problems I see in this are:

- How to show the overviews on a list of players (for example the squad screen or player search)? Maybe vertical bar for each one of the eight overview category?

- How to show the effect of training? Maybe use two overlaid graphs of different color - one for increased/decreased attributes and one for the previous?

- How about those players that aren't fully scouted?

Hi! After all this hassle with CA and attributes and whatnot...

What would you guys think of an option to hide the player attributes completely and only show the overview graph?

After the 8.0.2 patch I have started to judge the players more by how they perform than by their attributes. Of course some information is need about players' attributes and I think the current overview screen is great for that.

Now, what I'd like to have is the possibility to set it so in the preferences that only the overview is used and the player attributes are never shown. This would be for the network games and for those players who would like to use the overview, but can't resist taking a look at the attributes.

The problems I see in this are:

- How to show the overviews on a list of players (for example the squad screen or player search)? Maybe vertical bar for each one of the eight overview category?

- How to show the effect of training? Maybe use two overlaid graphs of different color - one for increased/decreased attributes and one for the previous?

- How about those players that aren't fully scouted?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LSS:

Hi! After all this hassle with CA and attributes and whatnot...

What would you guys think of an option to hide the player attributes completely and only show the overview graph?

After the 8.0.2 patch I have started to judge the players more by how they perform than by their attributes. Of course some information is need about players' attributes and I think the current overview screen is great for that.

Now, what I'd like to have is the possibility to set it so in the preferences that only the overview is used and the player attributes are never shown. This would be for the network games and for those players who would like to use the overview, but can't resist taking a look at the attributes.

The problems I see in this are:

- How to show the overviews on a list of players (for example the squad screen or player search)? Maybe vertical bar for each one of the eight overview category?

- How to show the effect of training? Maybe use two overlaid graphs of different color - one for increased/decreased attributes and one for the previous?

- How about those players that aren't fully scouted? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel that the attributes - and their development - is as important as the tactics you use. Never before have the two been so interlinked and it really is important for me to see the numbers.

And don't believe what you read about there being a problem with CA and the attributes. It works exactly as it should do to create more realism in the game.

It is of course up to you how you view the player attributes and if the overview screen works for you, then fine, but the overview screen doesn't really tell you anything other than how a player "generally" looks. It is impossible (unless someone can explain otherwise) how you would know how to set your creative freedom, run with the ball, long shots, tackling, marking and free role tactics if you couldn't see the numbers behind the overview. Or maybe I'm missing something (which is always possible).

well if we wanted total reality then we shouldn't have stats at all. at least not seeable ones like we have now, of course. but I think that would take off this game's enyojment.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:

how you would know how to set your creative freedom, run with the ball, long shots, tackling, marking and free role tactics if you couldn't see the numbers behind the overview. Or maybe I'm missing something (which is always possible). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to do it by watching the players play and using the overview as a guide. If a player keeps missing his long shots then he probably isn't that good at it.

I understand that this isn't something that all players want. I am probably in the minority, but that's why I'd like it to be included as an option.

I think Att was useful in the old days when we didn't have a match engine. Now, we should have only traits, for example, C. Ronaldo is a great dribbler. It will intreduce a whole new game.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LSS:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:

how you would know how to set your creative freedom, run with the ball, long shots, tackling, marking and free role tactics if you couldn't see the numbers behind the overview. Or maybe I'm missing something (which is always possible). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to do it by watching the players play and using the overview as a guide. If a player keeps missing his long shots then he probably isn't that good at it.

I understand that this isn't something that all players want. I am probably in the minority, but that's why I'd like it to be included as an option. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had the same idea a couple of days ago. I wanted to replace the stats with something like an overview:

Scouts report: he will tell if someone scores a lot of goals from distance

Media report: will signal players that stand out for their ability to shoot from distance

Stats: Player shot 15 times from distance, scored 8.

Makes the games less predictable as you don't know exactly how good someone is for a certain attribute. "Is it luck that he scored 8 or is it ability?"

But like you said, I think there is only a minority that wants something like this.

Could we achieve some of this by modding the FM skin?

I think we should sign a pettition to get SI to do it for FM09.

It would almost be enough if the "Show graphical attributes in profile" option could be extended to everywhere where the numbers are displayed.

The only problem then would be the players Training -> Attributes screen where the exact attribute number could be easily figured out from the graphs. But this would only work on your own players, so it might not be a problem.

Sorry, I don't like this idea You can say for C. ronaldo "He's a great dribbler", but who is better, him or another player also "great dribbler"? And what about his pass? or his shooting, tackling, finding space...

IMHO, the problem is that we know players attributes too quickly. In few minutes you can see if a player has high pace or not, but you can't really know if he has high or medium decisions only with one match. I think that scouts should have a range of possible values for an attribute (he has anticipation between 10 and 14) or just a guessing (a scout may say "his bravery is around 7" - but currently it's 9). The problem is that implementing this can be very difficult and add a lot of needed data in the game so could make the game quite slow (believe me, i'm a software developer ). But also scouts are guessing CA and PA, so it's possible to guess attributes also.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Sorry, I don't like this idea You can say for C. ronaldo "He's a great dribbler", but who is better, him or another player also "great dribbler"? And what about his pass? or his shooting, tackling, finding space...

IMHO, the problem is that we know players attributes too quickly. In few minutes you can see if a player has high pace or not, but you can't really know if he has high or medium decisions only with one match. I think that scouts should have a range of possible values for an attribute (he has anticipation between 10 and 14) or just a guessing (a scout may say "his bravery is around 7" - but currently it's 9). The problem is that implementing this can be very difficult and add a lot of needed data in the game so could make the game quite slow (believe me, i'm a software developer ). But also scouts are guessing CA and PA, so it's possible to guess attributes also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is only an idea to build on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Sorry, I don't like this idea You can say for C. ronaldo "He's a great dribbler", but who is better, him or another player also "great dribbler"? And what about his pass? or his shooting, tackling, finding space...

IMHO, the problem is that we know players attributes too quickly. In few minutes you can see if a player has high pace or not, but you can't really know if he has high or medium decisions only with one match. I think that scouts should have a range of possible values for an attribute (he has anticipation between 10 and 14) or just a guessing (a scout may say "his bravery is around 7" - but currently it's 9). The problem is that implementing this can be very difficult and add a lot of needed data in the game so could make the game quite slow (believe me, i'm a software developer ). But also scouts are guessing CA and PA, so it's possible to guess attributes also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a better idea than the one's spouted off further up the page!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by williamshankley:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Sorry, I don't like this idea You can say for C. ronaldo "He's a great dribbler", but who is better, him or another player also "great dribbler"? And what about his pass? or his shooting, tackling, finding space...

IMHO, the problem is that we know players attributes too quickly. In few minutes you can see if a player has high pace or not, but you can't really know if he has high or medium decisions only with one match. I think that scouts should have a range of possible values for an attribute (he has anticipation between 10 and 14) or just a guessing (a scout may say "his bravery is around 7" - but currently it's 9). The problem is that implementing this can be very difficult and add a lot of needed data in the game so could make the game quite slow (believe me, i'm a software developer ). But also scouts are guessing CA and PA, so it's possible to guess attributes also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a better idea than the one's spouted off further up the page! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why don't you give us ideas Mr. Shankley?!

try to use the "Show graphical attributes in profile" option. It did wonder to my game. When i use number before i've found myself judge players on key attributes. so a lot of the time i would pick a player because he has 13 in passing instead of 12.

since i used graphical attributes i actually look at all the attributes and i've found much easier and (imo) better way to judge a player

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

Sorry, I don't like this idea You can say for C. ronaldo "He's a great dribbler", but who is better, him or another player also "great dribbler"? And what about his pass? or his shooting, tackling, finding space... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, can you really objectively tell who is the better dribbler C. Ronaldo or Messi? I can't.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by xouman:

IMHO, the problem is that we know players attributes too quickly. In few minutes you can see if a player has high pace or not, but you can't really know if he has high or medium decisions only with one match. I think that scouts should have a range of possible values for an attribute (he has anticipation between 10 and 14) or just a guessing (a scout may say "his bravery is around 7" - but currently it's 9). The problem is that implementing this can be very difficult and add a lot of needed data in the game so could make the game quite slow (believe me, i'm a software developer ). But also scouts are guessing CA and PA, so it's possible to guess attributes also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, this is (also) a good idea.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andyinuk:

try to use the "Show graphical attributes in profile" option. It did wonder to my game. When i use number before i've found myself judge players on key attributes. so a lot of the time i would pick a player because he has 13 in passing instead of 12.

since i used graphical attributes i actually look at all the attributes and i've found much easier and (imo) better way to judge a player </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd still want the graphical attributes to be used everywhere not only on the player's profile.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> originally posted by PaulC:-

The other thing I think people need to do in order to judge a player is look at his actual stats from matches, and also try to watch him carefully in the 2d where possible...... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That may be true in real life but in the game it's been noted that reputation affects 'virtual' club performance when generating results in no detail leagues.

So since you know about the inner workings of the game how reliable are 'fake' stats for players in non active leagues and the stats for players in 'no detail' leagues?

Do you yourself trust in these stats as a good barometer of a player's performances and consistency?

PS I don't use fake in a derogatory sense, just a descriptive one.

Thanks for the reply PaulC. So if I make my decisions by striking a balance between stats, attributes and scout reports when it comes to simulated leagues I should place a little less weight in stats when making a decision?

To the OP I don't disagree and feel if adding it as an option isn't too much coding hassle then why not have it for gamers who wish to do so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> originally posted by xouman:-

IMHO, the problem is that we know players attributes too quickly. In few minutes you can see if a player has high pace or not, but you can't really know if he has high or medium decisions only with one match. I think that scouts should have a range of possible values for an attribute (he has anticipation between 10 and 14) or just a guessing (a scout may say "his bravery is around 7" - but currently it's 9). The problem is that implementing this can be very difficult and add a lot of needed data in the game so could make the game quite slow (believe me, i'm a software developer ). But also scouts are guessing CA and PA, so it's possible to guess attributes also.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's been posted before about gradual learning about a player and this affecting the attributes we see versus the attributes the player actually has. Instead of storing additional data for every player could they not implement a transformation function that alters attributes based on the type of report (report card versus 3 matches, in fact they could introduce additional scouting amounts to enhance this, like scout for 5 matches)number of times scouted and the scouts attributes. That way it wouldn't be necessary to store additional profile, just run the real profile through a calculation and display the results.

Also it they did implement something like this they would have to implement a pop up of some sort that clearly states these effects. Otherwise it could prove very frustrating for new comers to the game with players attributes changing as soon as they sign them, particularly if they tend to learn the game by playing rather than reading the manual.

Paul: Is it possible to use the graphical attributes everywhere not just in the player's profile?

I don't want to see the ugly numbers anymore.