Why do slower players outrun much quicker players?

Seriously losing any respect for the 2D engine when you see things like this.

Just had a ball chase where Ben Arfa given a couple of yards start got beaten to the ball by Tony Kane.

Ben Arfa

Acceleration 18

Pace 15

Determination 15

Anticipation 15

Stamina 14

Natural Fitness 14

Condition 95%

Moral Superb

Tony Kane

Acceleration 13

Pace 12

Determination 14

Anticipation 12

Stamina 15

Natural Fitness 15

Condition 90%

Morale Good

How can we trust the match engine when such things occur when one player is so clearly superior in the speed dept.

The same happens in my benefit too as D'Allessandro who I bought as a slowish playmaker due to lack of pace is actually now a mean winger as the 2D seems to bless him with pace to beat the quickest fullbacks, which is why Ive started to keep an eye on this.

I wonder how many other things happen in the engine that do not properly reflect players attributes?

Seriously losing any respect for the 2D engine when you see things like this.

Just had a ball chase where Ben Arfa given a couple of yards start got beaten to the ball by Tony Kane.

Ben Arfa

Acceleration 18

Pace 15

Determination 15

Anticipation 15

Stamina 14

Natural Fitness 14

Condition 95%

Moral Superb

Tony Kane

Acceleration 13

Pace 12

Determination 14

Anticipation 12

Stamina 15

Natural Fitness 15

Condition 90%

Morale Good

How can we trust the match engine when such things occur when one player is so clearly superior in the speed dept.

The same happens in my benefit too as D'Allessandro who I bought as a slowish playmaker due to lack of pace is actually now a mean winger as the 2D seems to bless him with pace to beat the quickest fullbacks, which is why Ive started to keep an eye on this.

I wonder how many other things happen in the engine that do not properly reflect players attributes?

Depends on the two players starting positions, Kane might have been in a better starting position to get to the ball first. Even in real life, the faster player doesn't always get to the ball first.

maybe it's their fitness

IIRC, Ben Arfa's Work Rate is fairly low. I'm not saying this is the reason, but it's a possibility.

the pace thing has been a problem for ages I reckon, since the start of 2d.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sheriffpatgarrett:

the pace thing has been a problem for ages I reckon, since the start of 2d. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its more the case that the 2d doesn't give a good representation of the match engine at times.

In the example above the engine had decided based on stats that Kane would reach the ball first but when translated to the 2d it looks wrong.

Either Kane should have been represented closer to the ball or Arfa further away.

for your D'Allesandro example it may be because he has a high dribbling attribute that he can go so fast with the the ball. if it is without the ball then i am stumped.

Fitnmess.

Determination.

Workrate.

Pace.

Acceleration.

Anticipation.

Stamina.

Morale.

I think all of these areas impact on the example that you give but obviously it's impossible to say without seeing it.

I must admit to thinking a similar thing myself on more than 1 occasion, but whenever I have been bothered to look there has usually been a reason for my player losing out.

Where there hasn't been an obvious reason, I put it down to hidden attributes and a lack of hidden ability of my player.

It's easier than doubting everything.

i remember when the beta version of 2008 (or it could have been 2007) came out.

the discrepancy between slow and fast players was enormous.

fast players were completely out sprinting the slightly slower players and it was shocking to see.

they toned it down for the full release.

as for why some 'slower' players out run the faster players:

balance

stamina

injuries

work rate

anticipation

pace/acceleration

current state of play (score line,who currently has had most possession etc)

just coming back to the forums after a long abscence! woooooooo

it isnt always the fastest player who gets the ball first. pace is how fast the player CAN run if he wants to. not how fast he runs all the time. so this maybe the answer. he just didnt want the ball as much

they seemed to have lessened the effect of speed in the 8.02 patch aswell, fast players had a much greater advantage in 8.01 and 8.00

The 2D visual is just a representation of the match engine. Perhaps it's just in the translation.

Or the other stats - such as concentration, anticipation, work rate, determination.

Or the tempo of the match.

Or perhaps Ben Arfa was looking around for team mates to pass the ball to.

Or perhaps the AI cheats.

It's your tactics...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stevie_G_32201:

just coming back to the forums after a long abscence! woooooooo

it isnt always the fastest player who gets the ball first. pace is how fast the player CAN run if he wants to. not how fast he runs all the time. so this maybe the answer. he just didnt want the ball as much </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah..i dont buy that. Thats just an excuse you made up to explain the match engines flaws. Its just buggy. Its as simple as that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jakobx:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stevie_G_32201:

just coming back to the forums after a long abscence! woooooooo

it isnt always the fastest player who gets the ball first. pace is how fast the player CAN run if he wants to. not how fast he runs all the time. so this maybe the answer. he just didnt want the ball as much </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

nah..i dont buy that. Thats just an excuse you made up to explain the match engines flaws. Its just buggy. Its as simple as that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL LOL LOL

jakobx should be a comedian

i like how didnt try to beat around the bush

i think in this case jakobx is true

and by the way pace is the top speed you can travel at

and acceleration is how fast you reach that top speed

The attacker needs to control the ball the defender just have to make sure the attacker cannot control the ball. If you play you know.

Everyone missed out an important attribute, strength. Running in a straight line after a ball, the stronger one wins. How do John Terry keep his 100000/week job considering his speed?

Don't forget bravery - it's very important in situations like this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by cice2:

How do John Terry keep his 100000/week job considering his speed? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one is toooo easy. I'd say he is either sleeping with the bosses daughter or he has some dirt on his boss

Perhaps Arfa was facing the other direction and needed to turn around.

Perhaps his leg fell off

BUG

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by disasterd:

BUG </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No.

His leg definitely fell off. No doubt about it.

But it could be a bug...

...leprosy maybe? Could be Ebola...

well in 2007 i belive fast players were vastly over rated as in, even a player like eddie johnson would score tonns of goals as he is fast and would always beat slower defndes.

Even in real life the faster player does not always win as the decision where to make the run positioning your self for the run etc all comes into play, for example, John Terry is not a fst player at all means yet very realy do you see him being out paced for a ball.

Maybe a streaker ran onto the field and grabbed Ben Arfa? 2D can't show everything.

It's cos Ben Arfa is a candyazz which is why I never buy him

I had the problem when I was Hull City in FM08. I got Stephane Henchoz on a free for 08/09. He didn't have any pace really, and thus was represented as being absolutely awful.

We all know, that at the Premier League level he would do ok, never mind the Championship level. So I never bought any slow, veteran defenders after that.

Someone like Terry or Woodgate can mark even the fastest strikers out of a game, no matter how fast they are. Look how good David Weir has been for Rangers recently.

I've spent the last two seasons watching an ageing Sol Campbell consistently beat faster players to the ball from worse starting positions.

Pace is quite definitely not the only factor in beating an opponent to the ball. The attacking player will always have to slow a little to get control of the ball, which gives good defenders a window of opportunity to get a foot in.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TurkzZ:

Even in real life the faster player does not always win as the decision where to make the run positioning your self for the run etc all comes into play, for example, John Terry is not a fst player at all means yet very realy do you see him being out paced for a ball. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's all well and good, but what do you think happens when you try to play slow defenders against AI attackers?

I had Arjan De Zeeuw second season in the BSP. 16-20 for positioning, anticipation, tackling, marking, concentration etc, but only 4 for pace. The end result was I couldn't even use him. In real life he'd murder that level just through an ability top read the play and position himself accordingly.

Could Ben Arfa's 'condition' have dropped much lower than Kanes during the match? Same as fatique affects some players irl.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TurkzZ:

Even in real life the faster player does not always win as the decision where to make the run positioning your self for the run etc all comes into play, for example, John Terry is not a fst player at all means yet very realy do you see him being out paced for a ball. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's all well and good, but what do you think happens when you try to play slow defenders against AI attackers?

I had Arjan De Zeeuw second season in the BSP. 16-20 for positioning, anticipation, tackling, marking, concentration etc, but only 4 for pace. The end result was I couldn't even use him. In real life he'd murder that level just through an ability top read the play and position himself accordingly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i take it then that you weren't playing arjan de zeeuw in a back line that was quite far up the pitch?

as you dont want a slow player trying to play high up the pitch.

on the other hand how old is de zeeuw? it could be the problem that players degrade too quickly when they get over 30 years old.

carragher was terrible once he got to 32 in my game. couldn't even control a simple defnecive header without it ballooning off his forehead and into the path of a striker.

this is why you cannot understand somewtimes why your tactics are wrong or going wrong when a 35 year old defender with 3 for pace totally outpaces yopur 23 year old olympian god over 40 yards

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

i take it then that you weren't playing arjan de zeeuw in a back line that was quite far up the pitch?

as you dont want a slow player trying to play high up the pitch.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had him in a deepish defensive line, but any long ball left him in no man's land as everyone just ran past him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sirdez24:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by postal postie:

i take it then that you weren't playing arjan de zeeuw in a back line that was quite far up the pitch?

as you dont want a slow player trying to play high up the pitch.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I had him in a deepish defensive line, but any long ball left him in no man's land as everyone just ran past him. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

did you have your midfield line very attacking? if there's a very defensive defence and a very attacking midfield then that leaves alot of space between the two lines.

i usualy play a 442 but one of the CM's doesn't get forward. he just plays through balls.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Why do slower players outrun much quicker players? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because SI use the Madden team to program the AI?

Extra extra. Read all about it. Unexpected off-topic Madden bitterness in FM thread. Only 1% of the userbase nods in agreement. Extra extra.

funny to see senderos outsprinting rooney to clear the ball on a serious note though i get ****ed off when walcott is beaten to the ball by some slow joke of a defender

OK, was sceptical about this until last night when my Daniel Alves was beaten by Florent Malouda! Now, I know the circumstances. Avles was facing the wrong way so had to turn, coupled with Maloudas acceleration of 17 gives him a head start, though Alves was slightly closer to goal.

But then Maloudas pace is 15, and Alves' is 19! Yet he doesnt catch him up at all! I was expecting Malouda to streak away, then have to slow down when he got to the ball and was dribbling - surely his pace would then drop - and Alves to at least catch up enough to make a meaningful challenge, but no. Malouda maintains his distance and scum score!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stomalomalus:

OK, was sceptical about this until last night when my Daniel Alves was beaten by Florent Malouda! Now, I know the circumstances. Avles was facing the wrong way so had to turn, coupled with Maloudas acceleration of 17 gives him a head start, though Alves was slightly closer to goal.

But then Maloudas pace is 15, and Alves' is 19! Yet he doesnt catch him up at all! I was expecting Malouda to streak away, then have to slow down when he got to the ball and was dribbling - surely his pace would then drop - and Alves to at least catch up enough to make a meaningful challenge, but no. Malouda maintains his distance and scum score! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

it's all about momentum surelY?

malouda has the momentum which carries him forward. alves doesn't and also suffers the problem of being behind by a far distance when he finally gets involved in the race.

players aren't robots. you cant tot up their stats and expect them to perform in a certain way.

mentality and personality get in the way as well.

Yeah, I expected Malouda to get a lead, but even if he didnt get a challenge in, I could expect Alves to catch up at least a little due to being faster and Malouda being in control of the ball and thus his dribbling stat would also come into play

I take that was Daniel Alves ?

Kinda strange, since all his attributes that I could think having any impact are at least about even or way higher than Malouda's...Anticipation, Composure, Concentration, Decisions, Determination, Off the Ball, Positioning, Work Rate, Acceleration, Pace, Stamina, Strength.

Any other I have missed that could affect situation like that (except "Vaughan BS"..present in every CM/FM from the start... ..meaning that if game thinks you should lose, it will subtract about 10 from your player's abilities..)...

Yeah, I wouldnt have thought too much about it, its just that every attribute suggests that Alves should have at least shortened the gap to Malouda, but he didnt and Malouda was able to get in a cross unchallenged.

Maybe the game just doesnt like shortarses

Two days ago I witnessed one of my CBs who has pace and acceleration of 13 catch up to David Villa even though Villa seemed to have the momentum as he intercepted a pass. The CB caught up to him and knocked the ball away and left me quite surprised. I think it's the buggy, inaccurate representation we get in the 2-D view that's causing all these complaints. I think what may have happened is the CB was in fact deeper and had time to turn around and start sprinting before Villa could reach his full speed but the 2-D view showed it in a wrong way.

Speed should have a large effect as most sports do favour the faster players, hence the reason Riquelme was never as good as he should be. However that doesn't mean they should rule the game, in defense positioning would beat a fast attacker coming at them, and higher man marking would negate the effects of speed. i.e. Messi would always beat say Gary Neville to the ball but Gary Neville would most times be able to get into a defending position quickly.