Do players know their abilities?

Just had a thought and now I'm looking for answers..

Do players know their own abilities and strengths and weaknesses, and play to them accordingly (although depending on their ambition etc), aside from PPMs and tactics?

It would make sense to me, but I can't say I've seen it clearly within the game. For example, will a CM with 10 for passing and 18 for long shots play the same as a player with 15 passing and 6 for long shots if both have the same PPMs and are playing to the same role. Logic would say that the player who can pass better will attempt more difficult passes than the other, while the one with higher long shots may be less afraid to shoot. Does creative freedom allow them to simply have more variety in their play, or does it actually liberate them to play to their strengths?

Similarly, with the apparant abundance of DCs with low jumping, marking or positioning, will they try to play the same under the same tactics as a much better player, or will they instinctively adapt their game to their strengths? ie. disrupting opposition players stopping them winning the ball, rather than trying to win it themself, or avoiding tight marking in favour of better reading the subsequent movement of the opposition.

No-one ever likes my posts, do they? :o

It also brings up another question, do they know other players abilities?

Try tactics forum maybe, I'd be interested to know!

They should maybe also 'know' their overall ability, ie and decide not to move to Man City because they don't think they'll make the first team.

I don't think it's a tactics forum subject, rather an open question (to SI ultimately) or thus a suggestion.

As for knowing opposition ability, I think that's a very good point too! Knowing you're facing very dangerous or very fast players could drastically impact a defenders natural approach and could also create a sense of nervousness.

I get the impression they do, but it's probably my imagination, or maybe because I always try and fit a player with the instructions I give them.

On FM07, my first save was with Chelsea. My central midfield partnership was Fabregas and Ballack. Ballack used to charge around, winning the ball, bringing it forward and shooting, and passing to the wingers or Cesc. Fabregas was more inclined to play through balls and try and split the defence. He didn't score many goals or take as many shots as Ballack. His long shots rating was 9 iirc.

Does Ballack not have a shoots from distance PPM though, while Fabregas plays killer balls often? I'm wondering if without these they'd play very similarly. Perhaps it could appear that they do play to their strengths when watching highlights as only the successful passages of play will been shown, and most likely these will result from the player's strengths coming through, but maybe you'd see a different picture if you watched the full match.

I like to think that they do.

If players do not know their own strengths and not even of their fellow team mates (or weaknesses of the opposition), then it totally backs up that tactics are far too important and critical in this game compared to real life.

Every player, regardless of tactics being employed should have common sense and a tactical understanding.

I guess this is why if you put a few sliders out of place for even a world class player, they tend to play without much intelligence.

Quite a fantastic post Hershie, and one that might well open up a can of worms.

Hopefully we can get some answers or clarification, or if not pool some ideas together. Potentially many cans of worms of many shapes* and sizes.

*Actually, worms are all worm shaped so that doesn't really work.

Interesting question, I'd hope the players stats would help define how he plays and how he interprets the tactics.

I think so, but the ability to "know himself" may be included in the decisions making attribute. If a player has a 20 in decisions, 4 in long shots and 20 for passing, he would most likely try a through pass rather than a useless long range shot.

I wish there was an element of it within their decision attribute.

But I've long since believed that the players have no free will and totally reliant on you telling them EXACTLY what to do and how to play. Meaning different players come down to a set of numbers that defines how well they carry out what you tell them to do or not.

This would be great to have in the game but I doubt it that the AI can be sophisticated enough to do this.

An easier thing to do is to have player specific instructions as mentioned before in these forums.

The players won't need to know their strengths. Only you, the manager, need to decide what their strengths are and what you need them to do.

This would also allow a better hands-on experience for us. I wouldn't want the players to be robots of course. Just to know what is desired of them. Mistakes should continue to be part of the game as well as individual decisions that are against your instructions.

An easier thing to do is to have player specific instructions as mentioned before in these forums.

The players won't need to know their strengths. Only you, the manager, need to decide what their strengths are and what you need them to do.

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Um, this is what's in the game already.

In a way similar to what someone already said above, I have always assumed that this came down to the player's decision attribute.

I believe that, if the game makes sense, it works in the following way: Each action in a game has a probability of being successful or not, and that players with better decision rating made the right choices more often (therefore playing to their strengths)... for instance:

Suppose a player is close to the byline, with a side back about to completely closing him down - should he try to put a cross or should you try to go for the dribble? If you are fast and a bad crosser, you probably should go for the dribble... if you also happen to have a 20 decisions rating, maybe you will try the dribble 9/10 but maybe if you have decisions 1, you only do so 5/10..

Now suppose you are facing a defender that is faster and stronger than you... then maybe, eventhough you are a poor crosser you should go for the cross, and a player with good decisions would also identify that, and adjust the likelihood of dribble vs cross accordingly.

If the decisions attribute works in this way it simultaneously accounts for knowing your "own strengths" as well as knowing the opponents strengths... Surely hope this is how it is in the game, I would be rather disappointed if it is like some posters suggest.

CaptainPlanet,

Not position specific but player specific instructions. You set individual instructions for every single player depending on their strengths or your prefferences outside the tactics screen.

They follow these instructions regardless of what position they might play at when brought in.

For example, you have a winger who can also play as a forward. You usually use him on the wing and you have instructed him that you want him to run with the ball and cross it from the byline. He will do so even if you play him as a forward or whatever.

But with regards to this thread, that's just as bad as how it is now, there's still no responsibility on the player to make decisions it's all done by you.

In my experience players seem to deliberately play to their weaknesses. The ones who are terrible at long shots will constantly shoot from range even if you tell them to do so rarely, and the ones who are good at long shots refuse to ever try one.

The fact that players don't have a clue what their own strengths are can make the game quite unrealistic at times.

No mater how stupid the question sounds it is a good question. And i really don't know.

Seems to me the players might as well not have any stats the way they play. I watched one of my players with 6 for long shots score 7 screamers in a season and another player with 15 get none.

No doubt "it's your tactics"....

I dont think they know as if they did then , SI would have already replied to this topic.

It is an interesting 'philosophical' question.

I suppose you could find out by doing an experiment. Put all players on a default tactic with max creative freedom. To make it easier use an editor to give some 20 in some atts and 1 in others, then see how they actually behave. Give some 20 decision and others 1 too just to spice it up.

First of all, I think this is a wonderful thread, thanks Hershie..

Secondly, I believe in the bottom line this is about the overall intelligence of the player. I think the 'anticipation', 'decisions', 'composure', 'bravery', and some other mental attributes play a role in what action the player will take.

Even 'teamwork' attribute will play a vital role in my opinion. If the player is an ego maniac, he won't give the ball to another teammate unless he has to. Let's imagine a player like riquelme, great mental and technical abilities, but let's say that he has a 'teamwork' ability of 7. He won't give up the ball unless he thinks that he 'needs' to play that killer ball in my opinion. But this is my opinion. By the way, what was the teamwork ability of iniesta

I suppose you could find out by doing an experiment. Put all players on a default tactic with max creative freedom. To make it easier use an editor to give some 20 in some atts and 1 in others, then see how they actually behave. Give some 20 decision and others 1 too just to spice it up.

trying to think of a way that this can be tested conclusively. Any ideas?

Give two wingers the same attributes except for crossing, dribbling and decisions. Give them all the same tactical instructions (and especially run with ball sometimes and crossing sometimes).

Now give 1 player crossing 20 dribbling 1 and decisions 20 and the other crossing 1 dribbling 20 and decisions 20. See if the one with more crossing attempts crossing more often than the other one.

Now maintain with player with crossing 20 dribbling 1 and decisions 20 and create another one with crossing 20 dribbling 1 and decisions 1. See if the second player also tries as many crosses, or if because he isn't as smart he tries doing other stuff instead.

I think it is mainly a case of that the players don't know their own abilities, lets remember that they are computer code at the end of the day. The players will react differently according to their stats, but this has alot to do with their mental stats such as decision making. So say a player with a passing of 10 but decisions of 20 will probably pass just as well as a player with passing 20 and decision 10, probably not the exact math but you get my point.

But ultimately what a player does depends on you, you tell them what they should be doing through roles and philosophies. Stick in a defensive strategy a winger will bomb forward less, tell them to be more attacking they will go up more. But their pace maybe affect how effective they are but nevertheless they will still attempt this. That is why it is always a good idea to build tactics around the players capabilities.