Foreign interest in British Players

I think this has been posted on before (more on value of transfers) but its the one little gripe I have (Bar Player Histories which i hope is addressed for 2011!) so have decided to post. I did check for another thread but didn't find one; as this doesnt feel like a bug I am posting it here rather than in the bugs forum. If a mod feels it fits better somewhere else for SI to see it then please feel free to move.

My request is that SI limit or minimise the number of foreign clubs interested in British players. I totally accept that big clubs will be interested in big players (i.e. James Milner was phenominal for me last season so i accept Real and Barca being interested) and I would accept that players with high potential ability might also attract interest (a'la Moses currently said to be interetsing Barca whether you believe that or not) but poor youth players being wanted by foreign clubs rather than L1, Championship teams?

In general history has shown that British players move to british clubs; big club's players tend to move downwards (even if at or close to their full potential - they'd still be good players at X level) when not wanted by them (with some coming back upwards - Bentley, Shawcross, Eagles etc etc etc) rather than go abroad. You can probably count on 1 hand the number of British players plying their trade abroad (Beckham, Derbyshire, Pennant are the only three I can think of) so it feels unrealistic that Barca would buy the likes of Stearman from Wolves or Collison from West Ham!

At the very least if these foreign clubs are interested British clubs should be also and players would IMO tend to favour a move to the british club over the foreign one in about 7/10 times

Also one other thing can someone fix the "Not available for loan" thing? I set it for my youth players every season and invariably mid-way through the season it is back to being set as "unset." This used to be linked to speculation i.e. if a club speculated on a player the status would change but now it seems to just change. Would it also be possible to add a setting within "not for loan" to simply reject any offers?

Cheers

thats the problem for first couple of years it might be realistic but whats to say the current generation of U18 players wont end up littered over europe? as the best player come to england or spain that leaves voids for those players to fill there used to be alot of average players going to europe to play, i knoe Mears played on loan for marsellie, Kazim-Richards despite being "turkish" was born in london

Fair point about future proofing however given new rules coming in about domestic quotas and the likelihood that these will become stricter I would imagine less rather than more British players will depart for foreign shores. I agree that a few players have gone to turkey and greece in recent years but its absolutely in the minority IMO.

Ultimately that is gonna be SI's problem; as this thread shows there will be differing opinions and they may have a hard time pleasing everyone. I just feel that currently very average players (PA of under 150) are being courted by big european teams while British clubs show no interest which just feels unrealistic

agreed average players shouldnt be going to he top clubs but i dont see anything wrong with them going to mid-table teams in spain and italy after all the quota promotes buying the national players so why wouldnt say Catania go out and but a average midfielder from england to replace the italian they have lost if they are transfering the quota spot to a different position?

in 2024 (my save)

there are

153 English born players based outside of the UK & Ireland

470 Spainards

335 Italians

seems ok for me

Your stats from 2024 (if I am reading that spaniards and italians playing outside their own country?) seem fair; as I said this is an opinion and yours is certainly just as valid as mine. One thing of interest though is the following artical which while a little out of date still rings true. It doesn't dispell your point as to why foreign clubs might want to sign British players however backs up my point that even if they are interested the amount going would be a lot lower

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/68582-why-arent-british-footballers-leaving-britain

As I said mine was just an opinion; in most cases it is annoying for clubs to be interested in players not up for sale but that IS football! I guess if SI made it that british teams were also interested then it would feel more realistic at least

dont get me wrong im not saying your opinion isnt valid, i just think that its ok as is, as why would british teams be intrested if they didnt need the player? whereas the foreign team obviously does need that player

other things that need to be taken into consideration is that past 5 or so years the Premier league has been best in the world why would a player leave the country? wheras now i belive that La Liga is slowly gaining on it to reclaim the top spot, so the players want to play in the best league,

Gifton Noel-Williams also plays abroad

Matt Derbyshire plays for Olympiakos

Kenny Pavey plays for AIK in Sweden.

Well yeah, there is British players moving to foreign countries, but it's pretty rare. It's a pretty well-known "fact" that British players isn't very prone at all to move to foreign countries.

Tbh, the easiest way to prevent this (considering how badly e.g. McManaman failed in Spain), would be to set the average Adaptability of British players to 5 or lower. Would be quite realistic methinks!

This is something i have asked for before. I think they need to include a stat of some sort that say's the likleness of a player or staff moving abroad as I often see people like Gordon Strachan and Ally McCoist manging Juventus or Roma when in reality that just won't happen. Perhaps it could state their prefered countries they would play/manage in to make it a bit more realistic.

Does Fowler not play down under?

EDIT: Just googled, he plays for North Queensland Roar in the A-League.

Does Fowler not play down under?

EDIT: Just googled, he plays for North Queensland Roar in the A-League.

Agreed but would add that in his prime he was a top player; I dont have a huge issue with big named players going abroad either in their prime (beckham) or at the end of their careers (Fowler, several who have gone to the states etc) I am raising the point more around the players coming through youth ranks who IRL would end up in the loer leagues in England being courted by decent size clubs in Europe plus the random nature of teams like Barca, Milan et al buying players like Stearman (Wolves), Ched Evans (Sheff Utd) and so on. Hardly Ferdinand, Rooney etc which I could understand.

Gifton Noel-Williams also plays abroad

Maybe players with long names are more likely to play abroad

The Govenor is obsessed with British players playing abroad, he has a thread about them in the Football Forum. There are about forty IIRC. The notable one you've all forgotten is Terry Cooke.

I posted a thread like this a few years ago, suggesting an attribute for nationalities on the chances of a player moving abroad, with England and Italy having low values and the likes of the Ivory Coast having high ones.

I agree that there is a problem. For me, it was Milner, Bentley and Lennon moving to the likes of Napoli, Genoa and Lazio that did it. After all, that's hardly a step up.

I posted a thread like this a few years ago, suggesting an attribute for nationalities on the chances of a player moving abroad, with England and Italy having low values and the likes of the Ivory Coast having high ones.

I agree that there is a problem. For me, it was Milner, Bentley and Lennon moving to the likes of Napoli, Genoa and Lazio that did it. After all, that's hardly a step up.

I like the idea of the chance of moving abroad attribute idea - plus perhaps another for likelihood to purchase certain nationalities (i.e. french teams often sign african players) top flight English clubs tend to buy foreign but lower league clubs still buy british. My addition could be quite complex to implement but I definitely like yours!

Totally agree with the Milner, Bentley etc as thats kind of where I am coming from

Tbh, the easiest way to prevent this (considering how badly e.g. McManaman failed in Spain), would be to set the average Adaptability of British players to 5 or lower. Would be quite realistic methinks!

How did McManaman fail in Spain? :confused:

He was pretty successful if you ask me.

I personally don't like the idea of stereotyping a nation with a 'moving abroad' attribute. There are always exceptions to the rule and, if you look at the history of British players playing abroad, there were many more who played outside of their home country in the past when compared to the present.

I do agree that there are general issues of language learning and adaptability, and that these should be taken into consideration, however the lack of British players playing abroad also has a great deal to do with circumstances as well. I'm talking mainly about the money and prestige in the English game, which means that many British players do not aspire to play abroad.

Setting British players to have low adaptability isn't an ideal solution. There isn't much evidence that they can't adapt to playing in foreign, they just don't seem to like moving to non English speaking countries. They are lucky enough that the English league has always been a decent standard and they haven't needed to move somewhere else to play at a fairly high level.

I have found it unrealistic in game as well, but then I'd find it more unrealistic if the best players didn't move to the best clubs. It'd screw up the competitive balance too much and I'd rather the Italian, Spanish clubs were competitive in European football. Yopu also haven't mentioned how many leagues you are running. If you are running the English League all the way down to the BSN/S and very few other leagues then are are far more British players in the game then from anywhere else, and teams from other leagues will buy British players as they can't find other nationalities.

Ask the board to build fish and chip shops near the ground, that'll get the Brits flocking in

Ask the board to build fish and chip shops near the ground, that'll get the Brits flocking in

Quality

Tbh, the easiest way to prevent this (considering how badly e.g. McManaman failed in Spain), would be to set the average Adaptability of British players to 5 or lower. Would be quite realistic methinks!

Huh? McManaman won the European Champions League with Real Madrid, scoring in the final and winning the man of the match award!

I bet every player wishes he could fail as badly!

The only reason McManaman left Real was because they got a new president, signed Figo, and needed the cash after another spending spree.

Spurs defender Hutton has ust gone to Spain, 1st season , in my game. There does seem to be a lot of foreign interest.

its not just english players though the big clubs just seem way to intrested in average players, Barcelona have just Signed Chris Samba

http://lesrosbifs.wordpress.com/

Surely that proves a point to a certain extent. All of those people will have gone there to get a club rather than for the lure of playing abroad. I remember Ryan Jarvis leaving Norwich and only when it looked like no British clubs were going to offer him a contract did he start looking abroad; eventually though he turned down some danish side to join L1 Leyton Orient.

Ultimately what that doc shows is that the likes of a Milner, a Bentley etc aren't going to mid-weight spanish, french or Italian clubs and certainly the most likely course of action for a youngster from a big club isn't a foreign move its a move down the english league tiers.

I still accept all of Acidmonkey's points and maybe this will change over time; i guess this causes a problem for SI cause that would seem like a b**** to code in order to be accurate. My original request was just to tone down foreign interest not get rid of it all together.

On that topic another thing I have noticed is Foreign interest for youngsters set for loan. While I accept the Loan to Buy element and foreign clubs (given the current setting) interest because these are actually talented youngsters and that when offerering for loan you can exclude foreign clubs it seems a little over inflated the number of foreign clubs compared to british clubs interested in taking a player on loan when made available.

IRL if Arsenal or Man Utd have a player available for loan half the championship and a third of the premiership will be interested yet in the game that doesn't happen - or at least not in my experience.

its not just english players though the big clubs just seem way to intrested in average players, Barcelona have just Signed Chris Samba

Agreed, while I could see him going to a Napoli or a Bordeaux etc Barca is a stretch by anyone's imagination

I personally don't like the idea of stereotyping a nation with a 'moving abroad' attribute. There are always exceptions to the rule and, if you look at the history of British players playing abroad, there were many more who played outside of their home country in the past when compared to the present.

Most of those players were during the post-Heysel years though.

Most of those players were during the post-Heysel years though.

That is true but it might seem to suggest that it is down to circumstances rather than something inherent in British or English players.

Have you not got many leagues running? When Im on the laptop with only english leagues, the foreign non active clubs are overly active as a result of the majority of the database being english players.

Agreed, while I could see him going to a Napoli or a Bordeaux etc Barca is a stretch by anyone's imagination

hes jsut been joined by Matt Derbyshire

Quite frankly the only reason British players do not play abroad that often is because they really do lack qualities that other leagues require.

Even the EPL is beginning to lack British players! The EPL may be one of the best leagues, but definately the only reason that it is, is because of the influx of foreigners at both a playing level and also at a organisational level.

Most leagues outside of Europe really require a high level of technique, while most British players tend to be adapted to the cooler environments of the UK and base their entire game on pace and brute force.

It also has a lot to do with marketing in real life too. An Italian or South American signing in England will sound more appealing than say an Englishman signing for an Italian side or a Spanish one. So sometimes regardless of skill, to please their own fans, sometimes clubs will prefer signing players from nations renown for beautiful football, not phsyical football.

I agree with the OP that there needs to be something done with the transfer system to stop so many British players going abroad and keep them in lower leagues, or in English spoken leagues.

The perceived lack of ability amongst English players is so exaggerated. For every Defoe, there's a Balotelli. For every Ibrahimovic, there's a Rooney. At the top level, players from continental Europe are no more or less "skill based" or "physique based" than English ones, except the defenders who tend to be better at bringing the ball out (Rio Ferdinand is no Koeman or Rijikard).

Did Gazza get rejected by Lazio fans because he was British? Was Waddle hated by Marseille? Barcelona signed Lineker because of his pace and strength, not his finishing ability and movement, and likewise Rush at Milan and Owen at Madrid. I think that's nonsense.

If other leagues require a higher level of technique, and most British players do not possess this, then why do so many Spanish players apparently possess it?

I think the movement of managers is more important. If British managers moved abroad, they'd take British players with them. See: Martinez, Wenger, Venables.

I think the movement of managers is more important. If British managers moved abroad, they'd take British players with them. See: Martinez, Wenger, Venables.

That's a very good point actually. But it does lead us to question why it is that British managers don't tend to coach abroad?

Probably a matter of circumstance once again. I cannot believe that it is something inherent in British culture. See Roy Hodgson, for instance, and then look at some of the hugely influential coaches who managed abroad in the past:

- Steve Bloomer and Fred Pentland both managed in Spain after the First World War; Pentland is apparently still seen as a kind of father of football figure in Spain.

- Jimmy Hogan is counted amongst the great pioneers of the game on the European continent. Father of Hungarian football, Austrian football and German football. He also coached in Holland.

- William Garbutt managed in Italy and Spain, and he is often considered a father figure of Italian football.

- Jesse Carver is remembered for his enlightened post-war management in Holland, Italy and Greece.

- Bobby Houghton and Roy Hodgson are often credited with the transformation of Swedish football into a relative modern power during the 1970s and 1980s.

- Sir Bobby Robson, of course, managed in Holland, Portugal and Spain.

- Terry Venables is another relatively modern example of an English manager working abroad.

Perhaps it has to do with modern training in Britain? In the past, we had much to share with the rest of Europe and were considered pioneers of the game. These days, many would argue that we are well behind our European neighbours. The Italians, for instance, have a fantastic record of bringing top managers and coaches through, and I can't help but feel that this has to do with their approach to training their young managers. Didn't Mourinho also describe the Italian leagues as 'more tactical' than the Premier League upon his arrival in Italy?

It must also be, of course, a matter of quality and the chances available to young managers starting out in the English game. All of the top clubs want a name, and preferably a top European one, which leaves many young English managers without a chance to make a name for themselves in their own country.

Sorry to go a bit off topic. Very interesting though.

I think this is directly in relation with the extremely low domestic player bias that has been fixed for Patch 10.3.

A lot of the examples of English players playing abroad are from a time when English clubs were banned from Europe. A lot of players moved to Europe to compete in European competition.

I would be hard pushed to think of 10 players who play in other European Leagues.

I would be hard pushed to think of 10 players who play in other European Leagues.

Try clicking here.

We are massively behind the Italians and the Dutch at the moment, but then, so are the Spanish and the French, for example. They're both quite a way ahead of us in turn. The only employed English manager of note atm is Hodgson, Coppell and Curbishley are both taking breaks.

I don't know what's causing that. Lack of time in the job? Ince got a chance, and didn't take it, and got sacked quickly afterwards. Southgate hung on, but gradually dragged 'boro down. Adams was poor. Maybe it's simply more lucrative to go into the media, where there are more positions for the British than any other nationality, I'd guess.

It's an old article but after a quick google search, I found this article, which underlines some of the differences between English and Italian football cultures in terms of management.

This article, quoting some of Roy Hodgson's opinions about English coaches is quite interesting too. In it, he says that 'he is not so unusual, that there are plenty of English coaches dotted all over the world, but that there are not many high-profile ones because the next division down in England will always provide a job for an experienced manager and few English managers can be bothered to learn a new language.'

Talking about Capello managing England, he says: 'We have devalued the English coaching system by making it clear we don’t think it is good enough. It’s not doing the global opinion about English football any good when you say we haven’t got anyone who’s any good [for the England job].'

We've gone a bit off topic, I realise, and it's probably one for the Football Forum, but very interesting to speculate about it nonetheless.

I realised this was a problem on my game when Barcelona signed Sam Vokes! Nino (from Tenerife) and Jean-Alain Boumsong! Boumsong LMAO. Nice one Barca!

I realised this was a problem on my game when Barcelona signed Sam Vokes! Nino (from Tenerife) and Jean-Alain Boumsong! Boumsong LMAO. Nice one Barca!

Boumsong is a fine DC tbh. He was signed by Newcastle for too much money and didn't adapt, playing under a terrible manager and frankly horrible man in Souness. :o

He's playing for Lyon, having previously played for Juventus, and has been in the France squad for the past 3 major tournaments. A bit old perhaps, but wouldn't be an awful backup for Barca by any means. Up there with Blanc and Mexes as one of Auxerre's great defensive products iirc.

Roy Hodgson, the man who sold Roberto Carlos because Inter Milan already had Pistone, is one of the most qualified English managers to talk about devaluing English managers' skills abroad

However I agree the lack of British players/managers around Europe has much to do with the language issue, and also with a socio-cultural aspect of football, as a whole.

Probably the many less-than-stellar spells of many British players around Europe in the past decades (mostly during the 80s... Ian Rush... I still remember how disappointed I was...] convinced them it wasn't really worth endangering a solid reputation home, much less if it was to become lesser figures at lesser clubs.

So, in a way, a British player [but the same goes, e.g. for most Italians] will rather play at mid-table level at home than trying to attain the same level abroad, where football, language, habits etc are different.

And I wouldn't underestimate the "out of sight, out of heart" factor, which seems to affect most of the traditionally non-exporting nations. [e.g. Zola didn't get a cap after 1997, despite playing wonderfully at Chelsea]

Things might change soon, with more players moving around, with foreigners taking EPL by storm and with different leagues not being as "different" as they used to be.

Back IT though, I think FM should definitely take much more into account the "domestic bias" of players and staff. Also some sort of "exporting/non-exporting" rating for nations, and a better implementation of the "transfer market range", possibly avoiding players from "odd" nations flooding leagues and nations they wouldn't be taken into consideration.

In my game I have plenty of Norwegian benchwarmers bought by Italian clubs (bottom Serie A/Serie B), and generally too many players ending up in leagues they don't belong.

P.S. Am I looking too much into it if I still suspect a bit of the original "English Masters" superiority complex plays a role in English players choosing to play for a mid-table side in England instead of accepting to play at a slightly higher level abroad?

Is the old prejudice of "continental football" being somewhat inferior to be dignified with the presence of those who invented football?

Boumsong is a fine DC tbh. He was signed by Newcastle for too much money and didn't adapt, playing under a terrible manager and frankly horrible man in Souness. :o

He's playing for Lyon, having previously played for Juventus, and has been in the France squad for the past 3 major tournaments. A bit old perhaps, but wouldn't be an awful backup for Barca by any means. Up there with Blanc and Mexes as one of Auxerre's great defensive products iirc.

Even if your opinion of Boumsong is correct Hersh (I think he is garbage ), what about Sam Vokes?! There is NO WAY Barca would sign him. No-one could tell me otherwise!

Atletico Madrid are currently sniffing around Tony Hibbert in my save. Seems a bit odd.

... the likes of a Milner, a Bentley etc aren't going to mid-weight spanish, french or Italian clubs .

Although I certainly didn't see it coming, but Bentley has been quite heavily linked with a move to Atletico Madrid, a 'mid-weight spanish side.' I was also reading today about Darius Vassell's travails in Turkey (google his blog, it's fascinating).

Perhaps we are seeing a sea-change in British players' attittudes to playing abroad?

I have seen a few players go abroad who are not top players, Not for top teams either though.

But i remember Gifton Noel Williams leaving us for some Spanish team and i remember David Vaughan moving to Real Sociedad from Crewe a couple of seasons ago, also Kazim Richards joined some Turkish team too, and im sure theres plenty of others.

But i know what you mean though about Giant Teams intrested in average players, you have average players in your team and you will see the likes of Real Madrid intrested in them.

On my game i always seem to find Real Madrid intrested in just above average players, not top class players.

Leighton Baines went to Barcelona on my save.

If I was English (and a decent player of course!) I'd rather play for a mid table team in the South of France, Tuscany or Granada than Burnley, Hull or West Bromwich (no offence to anyone from those towns, just gets a bit chilly in winter )

Although I certainly didn't see it coming, but Bentley has been quite heavily linked with a move to Atletico Madrid, a 'mid-weight spanish side.'

LOL I saw that too - typical timing. My guess is that he wont end up there mind you (although I wait to be disproved during January!)

If you think that's not good, you have to see what happens in Argentina. In a couple of seasons, all teams get flooded of brazilians, something almost impossible here (The last brazilian in a strong team here was Iarley in Boca), but what's worse is that almost all these brazilians are simply too bad for the division... so I swear that, if I find a big Argentinian team without a manager, I would come there and wipe out all these crap players they bought (Of course, if there's a good one, he'll stay)