Board Confidence - Having Manager Input

Many people have already had their say over the implementation of board confidence and how it's either been a very bad thing or been next to useless in a lot of cases.

Personally, I've found it to be a good incentive to keep my head down and work well within my constraints but whilst many seem to think it's a missed opportunity I would like to offer some suggestions of my own for bringing yourself and the board in to closer contact and improving it.

Season Expectations

I must admit, I do like the idea of the board asking me how I feel the season will go and giving me a transfer and wage kitty based upon my prediction.

However, one of the biggest bugbears is that, particularly at the higher levels, you have no control over how you wish to approach the cups.

Whilst the boards expectations may be realistic, they can also be blown out of all proportion and take in to account the level of opposition you may face in each competition round by round.

At the start of each season it would be a better option to allow managers to negotiate with each board a minimum and maximum expectation, I'll give the following as an example from a high-flying premiership club:

'The board has asked for your opinion on the potential achievements of the club this season and whether you think success is at all likely:'

Champions League

Minimum

i) I would expect the group stages to be a good step for us

ii) We should qualify for the knock-out stages

iii) We should win the group and with luck make some good progress (Quarter-Finals)

iv) We're amongst the best in Europe, Semi-finalists at least. (Semi-Finals and beyond)

Maximum

i) We'll try our hardest, but we'll be lucky if we come out of the group stages with anything.

ii) We'll reach the knock out rounds but I make no promises after that.

iii) The quarter-finals should be our aim.

iv) I'm feeling lucky, we should make the semis.

v) We'll win it, no doubt!

This of course gives the board a user-centred viewpoint on the competition and the board may decide to ask you to up your game or think you're being unambitious in your aspirations - something that should be measure in a manager's profile - how willing he is to push on to the next level - and of course - the overly ambitious and unrealistic will always pay the price!

Added in to this I'd like the option to review with the board progress throughout a competition: A tough draw would mean you had a chance to say 'Well look, if we get anything here...' and give the board warnings of the fact that you either don't feel your team is playing that well at the moment or you're not too confident about an upcoming tie.

Furthermore, of course, this could be a good opportunity for media stories to come to the fore such as 'x writes off <Competition> chances' or 'x sends a clarion call through <Competition>'

One further thing I would like, which links in to the above, is the ability to 'downgrade a competition' such as a League Cup and tell the board you would really like to 'save our resources for a good run at the league/battle relegation/push for a playoff/give our youngsters a chance of a run out'

Prioritisation of competitions would allow you to focus on them and effectively measure squad depth, as well as providing a more 'realistic feeling' that whilst some competitions are a bonus and the Silverware is nice, it's not where your primary obligations lie.

Again of course, this could have a media spin also attached to it and increase board relations.

Thoughts?

Many people have already had their say over the implementation of board confidence and how it's either been a very bad thing or been next to useless in a lot of cases.

Personally, I've found it to be a good incentive to keep my head down and work well within my constraints but whilst many seem to think it's a missed opportunity I would like to offer some suggestions of my own for bringing yourself and the board in to closer contact and improving it.

Season Expectations

I must admit, I do like the idea of the board asking me how I feel the season will go and giving me a transfer and wage kitty based upon my prediction.

However, one of the biggest bugbears is that, particularly at the higher levels, you have no control over how you wish to approach the cups.

Whilst the boards expectations may be realistic, they can also be blown out of all proportion and take in to account the level of opposition you may face in each competition round by round.

At the start of each season it would be a better option to allow managers to negotiate with each board a minimum and maximum expectation, I'll give the following as an example from a high-flying premiership club:

'The board has asked for your opinion on the potential achievements of the club this season and whether you think success is at all likely:'

Champions League

Minimum

i) I would expect the group stages to be a good step for us

ii) We should qualify for the knock-out stages

iii) We should win the group and with luck make some good progress (Quarter-Finals)

iv) We're amongst the best in Europe, Semi-finalists at least. (Semi-Finals and beyond)

Maximum

i) We'll try our hardest, but we'll be lucky if we come out of the group stages with anything.

ii) We'll reach the knock out rounds but I make no promises after that.

iii) The quarter-finals should be our aim.

iv) I'm feeling lucky, we should make the semis.

v) We'll win it, no doubt!

This of course gives the board a user-centred viewpoint on the competition and the board may decide to ask you to up your game or think you're being unambitious in your aspirations - something that should be measure in a manager's profile - how willing he is to push on to the next level - and of course - the overly ambitious and unrealistic will always pay the price!

Added in to this I'd like the option to review with the board progress throughout a competition: A tough draw would mean you had a chance to say 'Well look, if we get anything here...' and give the board warnings of the fact that you either don't feel your team is playing that well at the moment or you're not too confident about an upcoming tie.

Furthermore, of course, this could be a good opportunity for media stories to come to the fore such as 'x writes off <Competition> chances' or 'x sends a clarion call through <Competition>'

One further thing I would like, which links in to the above, is the ability to 'downgrade a competition' such as a League Cup and tell the board you would really like to 'save our resources for a good run at the league/battle relegation/push for a playoff/give our youngsters a chance of a run out'

Prioritisation of competitions would allow you to focus on them and effectively measure squad depth, as well as providing a more 'realistic feeling' that whilst some competitions are a bonus and the Silverware is nice, it's not where your primary obligations lie.

Again of course, this could have a media spin also attached to it and increase board relations.

Thoughts?

I'd love to see those with our own input instead of just telling us to win everything!

It should be similar to what they ask you when the league start. Say when the FA cup start, the board should ask you how far do you think the team can go. This should resolve many issues regarding this confidence.

I agree what you are saying here.

In my latest game I have started with Lyon, and yes I know it should be pretty easy to win suff, but I have been expected to win EVERY single domestic competition without exception. I did not even get a choice of "Title Winner" or "Title Challenger" for the league at the start of the season. To me these are ridiculous expectations to have of a new manager, and we, as the manager, should be able to state this to our Chairman and negotiate what the targets whould be for the season.

A good point id say 442to445.

Thanks

It also seems a bit odd to me that the game has two different mechanics for how success is measured, one by the board and one by the players, and whilst motivating some of the more greedy and mercenary players with high cash incentives for overall performance is a 'nice' idea, surely it would be good to give your squad - whether through your captain or not some ideas of your expectations of them for the season ahead.

We've all seen the 'thinks the team should be doing better'/'will strive to help the club improve it's league position' and 'proud of the club's league position' but why not, at the start of the season do two things:

1) Sit down with your captain, ask him what he and the squad feel are realistic ambitions.

2) Sit down with the squad and tell them what you think they can achieve and try appealing to them as a 'man manager' rather than just throwing pound notes at them.

Strongly in favour - I really hope this is the direction we're going.

Perhaps we could give our views of the other competitions as well:

League Cup:

i. I'm planning to blood the Under-18s in it.

ii. I'll be using it to keep our Reserves match-fit.

iii. I'll be giving squad players a chance to shine

iv. I'll take it seriously, but it isn't our focus.

v. (for non-top-4-teams:) Its our best chance to qualify for Europe.

vi. I'll be going all-out to win it

vii. Nothing less than victory is acceptable.

F.A. Cup:

i. I'm planning to blood the Under-18s in it.

ii. I'll be using it to keep our Reserves match-fit.

iii. I'll be giving squad players a chance to shine

iv. I'll take it seriously, but it isn't our focus.

v. (for non-top-4-teams:) Its our best chance to qualify for Europe.

vi. I'll be going all-out to win it

vii. Nothing less than victory is acceptable.

Charity Shield:

i. I'm planning to blood fringe players in it.

ii. Its just a pre-season friendly.

iii. I'll be going all-out to win it.

iv. Nothing less than victory is acceptable.

How you're answering here would directly affect your "Ambition" attribute.

The media might get ahold of it: in "Blade", I have a media figure who has, on occasion, railed against the manager figure for writing off a competition - surely the "disrespect for the traditions of the F.A. Cup" story gets trotted out every year in at least one quarter..

One thing that might make it an interesting decision is including a bit of a nerf for underpromising. For example, if I claim that the F.A. Cup is going to be an exercise for the U-18s, the board might not give me as much credit for winning it as they would if I boldly came out and declared that we would win it.

Absolutely Amaroq - spot on as usual!

I would have provided more competition suggestions but they were all grouped up later and bunched up. It's late, I'm lazy, yadda yadda yadda...

Ambition really does have a big part to play, especially with the AI, so there should be some measure of a player's willingness to go all out to win rather than just saying 'You will do this and you will do this'.

It's very inflexible and very uncompromising, and whilst it gives the AI an excuse to sack a player-manager it just represents a brick wall of achievement you can never do anything but fail at.

The over-cautious and pessimistic, would get little kudos and perhaps some form of board sanctioning in terms of transfer kitty and up to a point may even find the board issuing them with ultimatums!

Yep - I think we're in perfect accord on vision for this.

I'll say, I'm not certain that targets for other competitions are necessary - Champions League, clearly - but the others might be solved by a simple "don't get knocked out by a team whose reputation is significantly lower than yours" mechanic.

Oh I don't know, I think it's perfectly fair you set yourself (within constraints) realistic goals within each of the competitions you're set to play.

After all, whilst the board has it's expectations, as I said in my first post you may consider some of them to be trivial compared to the goals of achievement in other competition.

It seems unfair to give each and every one of them equal weighting in your measurement as a manager, particularly when some of them can be simply a distraction.

Then again, a trip to Wembley is always nice.

Yep this is hits it on the head I think.

Also, despite having complained about Board confidence/interaction etc, I think it is an essential and great part of the game and definitely should be expanded upon and improved. One of the real motivating factors for me as a manager.

Great idea. Needs looking into

I totally agree with everything their.. This is one thing that must be, without doubt added to the next series of fm, for example i play as bolton and often get annoyed when get drawn against arsenal chelski lpool or m united in the fa cup 3rd round or early in the league cup.. As i am a prem side my board xcepts me to reach quarters etc, however dont stand a chance when playing away at the emirates

Totally agree with the proposals here.

I was thinking on the same lines, except I was also thinking that boards and fans should have expectations beyond simply winning trophies.

What I mean is, almost like player PPMs, boards could have preferences e.g. expect you to:

a) develop youth players

b) keep us solvent

c) play good football

d) win us ANY trophy

e) save us from relegation

f) sign young english players

g) get marquee signings

Some of these are already in the game, but proper differences in the board could mean that AI clubs develop differently as well. For example, in future a club would consider a managers style of play, record in building dynasties, or record in saving clubs from relegation, when considering appointments. For example, if you save a club from relegation one year, another club in danger could try and poach you to work the magic again!

Similar for fans. For example IRL, Allardyce was sacked because of a percieved poor style of play which the fans didnt like. So Fans could

a) expect you to keep local players

b) buy the best

c) play good football.

Each season, or when you join a club, you could have a chance to negotiate against all clubs PPMs. For example, if you manage a mid-table prem team, you could tell the board the aim is to stay clear of relegation while going hell for leather in the cups. Or you could say you want to qualify for Europe via the league, s*d the cups. Basically, rather than have a flat level of objectives across all competitions (e.g. big club = win everything), boards would have different priorities which you could negotiate with based on what you think you can achieve. Plus these could be dynamic - say you win the league 3 years running but fail in Champions league, the board could make that your number one priority.

Finally, success against goals should be counted against failure on others, and a sustained track record of success should normally give you time to turn things around if things go pearshaped. For example, Arsenal didnt sack Wenger when he won nothing for three years because they trusted in his abilities and his vision. Although not all boards should be so enlightened in the game, some should.

Just my two cents

All excellent suggestions Robsabbaggio.

I agree the fans too should have a greater input in to the club, particularly both the board and the manager and be able to make their feelings more clear than just the signings (which is useless when signing youngsters) and be able to offer an insight in to the football you play etc etc.

I hope this is one of areas they really work on for FM2009.

This years effort on board and fan confidence is a step in the right direction. The fans and board have different expectations now, on different elements of your performance (money, cups, league, signings).

Problem is (apart from some of the bugs in the system), as you say, the managers expectations play far too limited a role. Too often we have to manage unreasonable expectations because we cant tell the board and fans what we plan and expect. For example, I want to be able to tell the board and the fans not to expect league cup success because I want to use it to blook youngsters. If they have a problem with that, fine, but otherwise you shouldnt be penalised. And I dont want to be penalised if I go out in a cup against a higher rep or bigger team! Also, if we get major injuries to my two key strikers, I would want to be able to say to the board I couldnt win the league because of injuries.

It would be great if a manager could persuade a board to back his vision (imagine going for an interview at the club, you could have some multiple choice questions to asnwer on how you see the club, where you would take them, how long, what your style could be!). If you do well for a club, your power should increase e.g. if you create a dynasty, the board should give you all the money you want, build the youth academy you want, send the scouts to the moon if they want

Fingers crossed!

Robsabbagio, I very much like the direction you're going with that.

In the U.S., there is an (NFL) team which has, for years, taken the attitude that winning is not as important as making a profit. They take advantage, of course, of the fact that there is no threat of relegation, and when a city gets distressed enough at the continued lack of success, they simply move cities. I won't name names, but they top the all-time losses chart and have a lifetime .360 winning percentage. Or thereabouts.

I'm not exactly certain what that kind of board would look like in the football world, but I'd love to encounter it: the board who demands "We must make a proft," and quite probably their only league instruction would be "Make sure we don't get relegated at the end of the year."

Imagining said board as, say, a Championship side - maybe the goal is "don't get relegated beneath the Championship." Being an ambitious human manager, I somehow scrape promotion to the Premiership, only to get "stabbed in the back" by the fact that my board are 100% content to drop back down to the Championship, take the parachute payments, and pay dividends. So they don't give me enough funds to keep the club in the Premiership .. just enough to convince the fans that they've made a "genuine effort".

My only hopes would be a board takeover, a free-transfer bonanza, or finding a new job.

Are you talking about the cardinals?

I'd be happy if they bothered to fix the long-term expectations.

West Ham offered me a two-year deal in 2019 to become their new manager with a long-term goal of "winning the EPL".

Great in theory, except they'd already been consigned to relegation. So it's a bit of a tall order.

Despite the fact as manager of Spurs I'd never accept anyway, but the point remains.

Fantastic points by everyone one.

I do like the suggestions given, I do like how the board confidence can become more 'Organic' so to speak with reference to current game conditions.

Such as, you've lost both your star strikers and your best keeper. At start of season the expectations where higher then, but your without your talent for 1/2 a season, then you can comment to the board.

Maybe they can become more sympathetic as of given hardships. Or adjust the confidence in you the team, because it becomes more interactive, therefore well .....um more.... Organic.

I love the idea of the minimum and maximum expectations in the original post.

One thing to add about the expectations in general - if we fail on one of the expectations, then the others might change. So of Man Utd go out of the CL and can't win the league then the minimum expectation for the FA Cup would go up.

I think "long term" should be longer than 2 years to be honest.

For instance, you takeover a club like Chelsea in 2010 and they have not won the Premiership since the game started in 2007. Thats now 5 seasonsm, (4 in game), but they have remained in and around the top 6, finishing a disappointing 6th in the previous season. You join with a huge reputation after past success, therfore they give you a 5 year deal and a decent transfer kitty. You should be given short term goals, and long term goals. For example;

- Over the course of your first season we expect you to begin rebuliding the squad and finish in the top four

- By the end of your third season we want you to be a major challenger for the Premier League title and domestic trophies

- After the fifth season we expect you to have won the Premier League and be a major challenger in Europe

Surely I m not the only one who thinks that a "long term" goal should be more than just a 2 year plan?

And if these targets are missed then you shouldn't be automatically sacked. You should be able to "discuss" with your board about why they have been missed, and be able to reasses the long term plans that have been set.

Of course I am discussing from the point of taking over the club during a game, and not the very start of the game. But hopefully some of you see what I mean.

Good point about the 2 year plan, its not exactly long-term is it!

Having milestones on a longer 4-5 year plan would be much better.

Having board expectations which are both 1) unrealistically high, 2) inflexible, and 3) too short termist, even for the long-term, doesnt sit well for the game of football which is so unpredictable.

Sure, there should be some nutter boards which sack managers on a whim or expect the quadruple every year. But most shouldn't.

I mean, if Alex Ferguson was managing Man U in FM2008 rather than real life, he would have been sacked by his third trophyless season in the late 1980s. Wenger would have been sacked after finishing 4th the season after being invincible. Rafa would have been sacked inside two seasons for not winning the league. Plus any number of relegated teams would have got rid of their managers immediately! Thats just wrong.

If SI can change this for FM2009, I will be made up

Very good points, I think there could be a bit more interaction with the board over your expectations. As Amaroq suggested, I would love to be able to explain to my board that I will be fielding a weak team in the League Cup to give youngsters experience, which is reflected in the board confidence.

442to445 and Amaroq I couldn't agree more. Great ideas, I would love to see them implemented.

Looks like I'm about to be a victim of this. Two titles in a two year contract and the second of which with four games in hand. The same day I won the title, my board satifaction collapses from "satisfied" to "concerned".

So clearly as much progress as possible would be a good thing.

im guessing SI are planning to put this in eventually but they couldnt do everything straight away, to be honest i think the bugs in this version are worth hacking as we will get amazing FM's in years to come

excellent post.

In general i find the interaction throughout the game frustrating. I find that with each new version of the game, there are 1 or 2 new elements that are exciting - i.e the epectation linked budgets this time round. But within half a season you have seen most of the variations of media response, board comments etc.

I love the ideas quoted above and would like to see a complete revamp of media comments, team talks pre and post match comments etc. There are now old and have changed little over the past few versions

Unsuprisingly got fired after my post as above.

Doubly ironic considering I didn't get the title in my first two year contract and yet they kept me on. Pretty much makes the game a waste of time.

Robin, first I'm very sorry.. but more importantly, can you get copies of your save-game into SI's hands? Bugs forum and ftp site would be the route to go.

Ideally, you'd want to show them two saves, one the day before you won the title, one the day before you got sacked, but anything you have that you can send would help.

Sorry for the semi-hijack. I assumed it was the same issue that others have mentioned and left it running, hence no saves other than one a few months later. Still, managing Spain instead so all ok.

And back to the main issue. I'd really like to see visible attributes for the chairman and board members, and for those to have an impact on the game (it seems like nearly all boards act in exactly the same manner, when in reality they obviously don't).

It would help a manager know what to expect from his employer and could work well with the expectations discussions that you've listed above. Surely the board could outlay their hopes, the manager could offer his plans and the final negotiated plan for the season would be your expectations.

Fair enough, robin.

My understanding on your issue is that, SI have said that they think confidence is "all right". I think the issue you just experienced is a bug, but one which happens infrequently enough that they haven't seen it in-house - and we the community have only reported it in GQ, not given them a real solid bug report with save-game.

So, everybody, if you suspect its about to happen to you, start copying off your save-game!

Just wanted to revive this thread, theres a lot of good things here which shouldnt be forgotten.

What is the best way to bring the idea here to SI's attention for FM2009? Is it the wishlist thread?