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View Full Version : Too few sackings - the evidence



IbrahimAliMaher
30-01-2008, 13:46
Take a look at the results of the following clubs:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2797/astonvillaastonvillafixyh3.png

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2683/southamptonsouthamptonfhu4.png

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4858/tranmereroverstranmerefgc3.png

http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=watfordwatfordfixtureskz4.png

None of these teams won more than 4/16 in these games and it's a similar story in the games before these. Villa are bottom the premiership and O'Neil has money to spend. Southampton are newly relegated but surely would have expected a promotion push (have since made a bit of a recovery), Tranmere are second bottom and have lost 11/16 and Watford waited until they were 22nd before sacking Martin Allen. These are the most extreme examples I could find (there are others) yet clubs seem incredibly reluctant to sack managers who are underperforming massively, despite the RL culture of success at all costs - this season there have been 23 chnages at the point in the season I'm at, compared to none/very few in FM. Add to this the fact that around 10 managers were rumoured to be on their way out in the summer, guess how many didn't get their contracts renenwed? Not one. The prosecution rests.

IbrahimAliMaher
30-01-2008, 13:46
Take a look at the results of the following clubs:

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/2797/astonvillaastonvillafixyh3.png

http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2683/southamptonsouthamptonfhu4.png

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/4858/tranmereroverstranmerefgc3.png

http://img413.imageshack.us/my.php?image=watfordwatfordfixtureskz4.png

None of these teams won more than 4/16 in these games and it's a similar story in the games before these. Villa are bottom the premiership and O'Neil has money to spend. Southampton are newly relegated but surely would have expected a promotion push (have since made a bit of a recovery), Tranmere are second bottom and have lost 11/16 and Watford waited until they were 22nd before sacking Martin Allen. These are the most extreme examples I could find (there are others) yet clubs seem incredibly reluctant to sack managers who are underperforming massively, despite the RL culture of success at all costs - this season there have been 23 chnages at the point in the season I'm at, compared to none/very few in FM. Add to this the fact that around 10 managers were rumoured to be on their way out in the summer, guess how many didn't get their contracts renenwed? Not one. The prosecution rests.

SWaRFeGa
30-01-2008, 13:57
Now the anti-evidence

02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED

DrQuak
30-01-2008, 14:04
.... Khalid Boulahrouz and Frank Lampard Man U managers??? who is the current one? John Terry??

IbrahimAliMaher
30-01-2008, 14:07
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
Now the anti-evidence

02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the top clubs are perhaps a little too trigger happy, Eriksson and Ramos went very early in my game. But the rest of the clubs very rarely change managers, compare that to people like Sammy Lee and Sam Allardyce, Billy Davies, Lawrie Sanchez who got sacked for doing very little wrong in a short space of time. And as for your example, 7 managers in 13 seasons isn't that bad considering Utd expect to be winning trophies every season, and the shadow of Ferguson.

SWaRFeGa
30-01-2008, 14:10
It's actually 11 managers in 13 seasons, as I didn't mention :

Alex Ferguson RETIRED
Steve Coppell RESIGNED
Steve McLaren RESIGNED
Marcelino CURRENT BOSS

I'll take a look at some other Prem clubs once I've finished messing about on my Wii. Lol.

bcm
30-01-2008, 14:17
Ya Ibrahim, are you sure?

IbrahimAliMaher
30-01-2008, 14:19
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
It's actually 11 managers in 13 seasons, as I didn't mention :

Alex Ferguson RETIRED
Steve Coppell RESIGNED
Steve McLaren RESIGNED
Marcelino CURRENT BOSS

I'll take a look at some other Prem clubs once I've finished messing about on my Wii. Lol. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ferguson doesn't count, he's been know to be retiring for years. Laudrup shouldn't really count either, for that short a period of time you'd assume it was a personal thing. And from the looks of it there was a 7 year spell without a change, even if McLaren and Coppell were in charge then it's not too bad.

SWaRFeGa
30-01-2008, 14:21
Steve Coppell managed for four years. Thats the longest stretch since Ferguson.

IbrahimAliMaher
30-01-2008, 14:26
Even so, you're missing the point. You're just looking at one club which has special circumstances beyond the vast majority of clubs. I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs + non league, and a handful of sackings (if that) by mid december is not realistic.

IbrahimAliMaher
30-01-2008, 14:29
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, make that 91 league clubs.

VonBlade
30-01-2008, 15:19
I've had quite a few "top" clubs going through managers on a massive level.

Man U and Liverpool have both had three or four managers in a season.

Once you are successful,or as successful as the board expect, then you can be manager for years (McLaren has been England manager for 20 years so far), but if the club isn't doing that well then some clubs can really rip through managers.

Definitely there aren't as many sackings generally, compared to real-life, but managers of clubs in financial trouble drop like flies.

Ched
30-01-2008, 15:36
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
Now the anti-evidence

02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boulahrouz....lol
That guy should be kept as far away from football as possible.

I can't say i've noticed the problem Ibrahim pointed out.
As to villa then it does appear to be a bit of an issue, but with regard to the smaller clubs i think that often they are given quite a lot of flexibility regarding their expectations.

CGSilva5
30-01-2008, 15:51
In anyone elses game, does Klinsmann or Mourinho ever eventually get a job?

A career that I had a little bit back, I was in about 4 or 5 seasons and neither manager ever had a job (I even changed Klinsmann's job status in the editor from "Director of football" to "manager")

jokerswild
30-01-2008, 20:03
yeah in mine Mourinho ended up managing Inter for a couple of seasons

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CGSilva5:
In anyone elses game, does Klinsmann or Mourinho ever eventually get a job?

A career that I had a little bit back, I was in about 4 or 5 seasons and neither manager ever had a job (I even changed Klinsmann's job status in the editor from "Director of football" to "manager") </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

B. Stinson
30-01-2008, 20:08
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Too few sackings - the evidence </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Start a game with the Swedish leagues on. You'll think much, much differently.

kevieyang
30-01-2008, 20:53
I haven't checked the other teams but Chelsea have sacked Avram Grant. Liverpool sacked Rafa Benitez and Marcello Lippi by the start of the 4th season.

backpackant
31-01-2008, 04:54
End of the season 2010 in my game, Fergie, Benitez, Aguirre (new Chelsea mgr) and Moyes, got the boot after finishing 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th respectively. Wenger was okay as Arsenal finished 1st for the third season in a row.

Am at the end of 2012 and as i've just won the league with Leeds, Wenger is on his way out (although the press seem to be speculating it's HIS choice not to sign a new contract).

glamdring
31-01-2008, 05:03
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, make that 91 league clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And you've posted stats for three of them pertaining to the sacking (or not) of a single manager in each case. That hardly counts as overwhelming evidence. Even in modern football there are still a range of chairman - some clubs have a patient chairman, others have ludicrously impatient ones.

Dario Gradi stayed at Crewe for over 20 years. They had success on the pitch in some of those years, but not all of them, but their board were patient. Same is true of numerous clubs so just giving 4 examples out of 92 clubs doesn't constitute "evidence".

Kill Rock Stars
31-01-2008, 06:06
there are too few sackings, and too many managers not getting offered new contracts

people citing examples of individual clubs getting through a lot of managers aren't taking into account the flawed ai of the board confidence system. each manager appointed during the season is being blamed for his predecessor's failures, and thus is far more likely to be sacked quickly. coupled with caretaker managers, this explains man utd getting through four managers in the 2017/18 example given above

as big clubs have further to fall, this leads to them getting through several managers in a short space of time. relegation candidates, whose boards want them to finish just outside the relegation zone, sack managers rarely because even when bottom of the table they're only slightly underperforming. thus their managers will often only leave at the end of the season when their contracts are up, which means no sacking, and means that their succesor isn't burdened by the confidence bug mentioned above, because they only take over once next season's target has been set

IbrahimAliMaher
31-01-2008, 13:39
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by glamdring:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
I'm looking at the other 95 league clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Er, make that 91 league clubs. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


And you've posted stats for three of them pertaining to the sacking (or not) of a single manager in each case. That hardly counts as overwhelming evidence. Even in modern football there are still a range of chairman - some clubs have a patient chairman, others have ludicrously impatient ones.

Dario Gradi stayed at Crewe for over 20 years. They had success on the pitch in some of those years, but not all of them, but their board were patient. Same is true of numerous clubs so just giving 4 examples out of 92 clubs doesn't constitute "evidence". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, I posted 4 not 3 examples. Secondly I never said 4 examples accounted for everybody, if you actually bothered to read what I said properly before commenting you might have seen the part where I said "These are the most extreme examples I could find (there are others)", i.e. there are plenty of candidates for the sack, I just couldn't be bothered to take 10 different screenshots, host them etc. And all these comments about the top 4 are irrelevant - these clubs expect to be winning stuff year in year out so a period of not winning things is a disaster in comparison for them, whereas for any other club could be seen as a good season.

Stimps2
01-02-2008, 02:40
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
But the rest of the clubs very rarely change managers, compare that to people like Sammy Lee and Sam Allardyce, Billy Davies, Lawrie Sanchez who got sacked for doing very little wrong in a short space of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a Fulham supporter, I can assure you that Sanchez did a lot wrong in a short space of time!

Nostromo
01-02-2008, 02:50
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWaRFeGa:
Now the anti-evidence

02.07.2008 - Manchester United - Javier Aguirre SACKED

05.12.2015 - Manchester United - Steve Bruce SACKED

26.12.2017 - Manchester United - Huub Stevens SACKED

17.03.2018 - Manchester United - Michael Laudrup SACKED

30.03.2018 - Manchester United - Khalid Boulahrouz SACKED

14.07.2020 - Manchester United - Frank Lampard SACKED

21.02.2021 - Manchester United - Hugo Sanchez SACKED </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


how about some screenshots?

Nomis07
01-02-2008, 05:26
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stimps2:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by IbrahimAliMaher:
But the rest of the clubs very rarely change managers, compare that to people like Sammy Lee and Sam Allardyce, Billy Davies, Lawrie Sanchez who got sacked for doing very little wrong in a short space of time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a Fulham supporter, I can assure you that Sanchez did a lot wrong in a short space of time! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree totally.

Sanchez did little wrong, other than spend over £20m (way more than Coleman was ever given) and take the team into a relegation position.

Sammy Lee inherited a team who had qualified for the Uefa cup and took them into relegation contention along with alienating a number of players who have since returned and played well.

Sam Allaerdyce spent a lot of money on players and was struggling bottom half of the table with the likes of Given, Taylor, Smith, Butt, N'Zogbia, Milner, Viduka, Duff, Owen and Martins. All U21 Internationals at least.

I wasn't too sure about the Billy Davis one myself but Derby fans pretty much see him as inept and believe that the football played has improved greatly under Jewell.

As for sackings in the game, I have seen plenty but it seems to mostly bee the top teams with lower teams sticking with what they have. The French league goes through a lot of managers as does the Dutch league. Could the amount of leagues running have an impact on this as many managers would never become available just like jobs wouldn't become available so teams don't lose their manager to someone else??

PS. I'm Northern Irish and I hate Lawrie Sanchez http://community.sigames.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif backstabber

KurtCobainsBrains
01-02-2008, 05:45
i think the spate of managers leaving after 3 months is annoying. i know it happens occassionaly irl, but its very commonplace on my games

andrewmg
02-02-2008, 03:35
oh it gets on my nerves when teams dont spend the money. i was top of the italian league and ac milan were out of the top four for a few seasons but they have like 90 million when i took them over. how unreal