For those who preferred FM 2008 to FM2009...

...do you feel the same way about 08 as compared to 2010?

FM 2008 is my favourite FM/CM game of all-time, as I didn't think that the changes in FM2009 were enough to warrant the extra waiting/processing time that I experienced. I haven't bought FM 2010, so for those who (like me) preferred FM2008 to 2009, do you think FM 2010 is enough of a step-up to warrant shelling out for the new game?

No matter what you're answer, be sure to say why. Thanks!

Nope, I don't. I haven't managed to go back to either of my long-term saves on FM08 yet, which I would have expected. The first save on fm10 for me was amazing, got right through to 2021 with Liverpool. Was great to find out how it felt managing them when theyre debt-free!

For me, FM10 is a better game, and I do actually feel like i "get" the tactical side of thigns now, whereas before, I was just downloading tactics and hoping for the best.

I was a massive fan of FM08 and didn't get on with FM09 very well at all.

I'm thoroughly enjoying FM10 so far. You'll see in my thread called 'The FM10 Appreciation Thread' the reasons why I am enjoying FM10 so much. I actually come at it from the angle of someone who loved FM08 but didn't really get into FM09 in that thread so it should be useful for you.

I won't repeat it all here but I will say that I believe it is worth getting and you won't regret it. Processing times are much improved on FM09 and almost back to the levels of FM08 quickness! The tactics creator and touchline shouts feature is one reason alone to buy the new game. I don't think I could go back now because I enjoy the change of emphasis towards spending time getting the best out of your team and outwitting the opposition, rather than spending a long time tweaking the sliders to get the desired effects (and this is coming from a former 'slider man' as well! )

Regards,

C.

Thanks for the opinions - I'd be glad to hear any more before I buy the game based on the above thoughts.

Aside from a few issues with the new patch, it's really great. I too loved 08 hated 09, but 10 is a huge upgrade. It feels more like 08 than 09 if that makes any sense.

FM08 has given me EASILY my greatest save of all time. I still love the game, and much preferred it over FM09. FM10, has currently halted my FM08 save, due to the fact I'm enjoying it so much. I'm having a little trouble with it tactically, and really hated the skin at first, but the game is just a masterpiece. Its the most complete Football Management sim I think I've ever played, and the 10.2 patch has fixed just about everything. Of course you're still going to get bugs here and there, but I generally can't complain about the game, in any sense.

Just because FM08 is rock solid, just single crash on over 50 seasons or so, I still play it altough I also have FM 2010, that I got crashed with just 2 minutes.

09 is total garbage. And also FM 2010 player attribute model is way behind FM 2008/2009 (why SI changed that?).

Given these two reasons alone, I cannot see that FM 2010 can ever overrun FM 2008.

SI wanted more arcade, they got it. But game just got worse everywhere.

I enjoyed FM08 but I really enjoyed 09 (must be 1 of a few) on 09 i played my longest ever save and was really into it.

However when a new FM comes out i have to have it regardless lol.

I'm now 9 seasons in on FM10 with Carrick Rangers of Northern Ireland and I've got to say that I'm hooked. The game processes much faster then 09 and for the 1st time I'm managing at a lower level and loving it.

Gotta say thanks to NepentheZ though for inspiring me to manage in Northern Ireland :-)

If you have the computer that can play FM 2010, get it.

SI wanted more arcade, they got it. But game just got worse everywhere.

Interesting opinion. In what way would you say that FM10 is 'more arcade'? :confused:

C.

I did start falling for FM08 a few months back, but with patch 10.2, FM10 wins.

I enjoyed FM08 but I really enjoyed 09 (must be 1 of a few) on 09 i played my longest ever save and was really into it.

However when a new FM comes out i have to have it regardless lol.

I'm now 9 seasons in on FM10 with Carrick Rangers of Northern Ireland and I've got to say that I'm hooked. The game processes much faster then 09 and for the 1st time I'm managing at a lower level and loving it.

Gotta say thanks to NepentheZ though for inspiring me to manage in Northern Ireland :-)

Always happy to help

I did start falling for FM08 a few months back, but with patch 10.2, FM10 wins.

Yup, the new patch is pretty much whats stopping me from carrying on an FM08 save. I'm torn between the two, and FM10 is currently winning, because I can't really put my finger on any single thing wrong with it.

Always happy to help

Yup, the new patch is pretty much whats stopping me from carrying on an FM08 save. I'm torn between the two, and FM10 is currently winning, because I can't really put my finger on any single thing wrong with it.

Absence of indirect free kicks.

There are no indirect FK's? Hadn't noticed, tbh, so clearly it doesn't bother me

Interesting opinion. In what way would you say that FM10 is 'more arcade'? :confused:

C.

More nice looking graphics, more bugs, less playable on long term...

In what way FM 2010 is not more arcade? I I think I play FM 2008 instead of 2010, it just gets rotten on table in front of me.

More nice looking graphics, more bugs, less playable on long term...

Apart from the nicer looking graphics, I'm not sure that makes the game 'arcade'. It's actually got more depth than ever really, hasn't it?

In what way FM 2010 is not more arcade?

Well, I'd say in the depth of the simulation. I can't see how it is 'arcade' but perhaps I don't understand how you are using the word.

C.

Apart from the nicer looking graphics, I'm not sure that makes the game 'arcade'. It's actually got more depth than ever really, hasn't it?

Well, just changing free attribute model alone makes it much more arcade than FM 2008.

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=4459164&postcount=1061

Well, I'd say in the depth of the simulation. I can't see how it is 'arcade' but perhaps I don't understand how you are using the word.

C.

I define arcade somewhat as "looks good, easy to get success, not for those who want ultra realism and challenge". And on this way, comparing FM 2010 to FM 2008 is like comparing WOW to those very few realistic RPG's.

Well, just changing free attribute model alone makes it much more arcade than FM 2008.

I've read that post and I'm still not really any the wiser.

I don't think the concept of weighting attributes by position has changed at all. :confused:

Many people complained about the regens in FM08 far more than in FM09 or FM10. So I'm not really sure what the point about this is.

I define arcade somewhat as "looks good, easy to get success, not for those who want ultra realism and challenge". And on this way, comparing FM 2010 to FM 2008 is like comparing WOW to those very few realistic RPG's.

I disagree. I actually think FM08 was a slightly easier game in fact compared to FM10. FM10 has quite a bit more depth to it as well.

Just one of those cases of 'agree to disagree' I guess but I don't think FM10 is in the least bit 'arcadey' and I think it compares very favourably with FM08, which is my favourite version. I hope, and expect, that FM10 will become my favourite of the series although it is too early to say right now.

Regards,

C.

I've read that post and I'm still not really any the wiser.

I don't think the concept of weighting attributes by position has changed at all. :confused:

But free attributes has and a lot. And yes, if we consider footedness, there is huge change.

Many people complained about the regens in FM08 far more than in FM09 or FM10. So I'm not really sure what the point about this is.

Too bad, I play FM 08 with only regens. My database contain only regens (regarding attributes) and I cannot see anything special to complain. So maybe those "most people" just don't understand things. Of course, complaints for FM 2010 http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=172218

I disagree. I actually think FM08 was a slightly easier game in fact compared to FM10. FM10 has quite a bit more depth to it as well.

Easier if you know what to do. And if you are using those corner bugs that are nonexistent on my careers. And about depth, well, as said that Free attribute model alone takes huge amount of depth away. Higher CA = better player most times. Free attributes make huge difference if one wants to use them.

Just one of those cases of 'agree to disagree' I guess but I don't think FM10 is in the least bit 'arcadey' and I think it compares very favourably with FM08, which is my favourite version. I hope, and expect, that FM10 will become my favourite of the series although it is too early to say right now.

Regards,

C.

I hope that also, but it seems there is too much to go and FM 2010 will never be playeable on long term.

I don't think the concept of weighting attributes by position has changed at all. :confused:

I considered this again and it has changed and a lot. It must have.

Because on FM 09 Free kicks, Penalty taking and so on were independent from CA for all players, now they are not, so there has to be some changes.

Getting rid of the free attributes was a great improvement IMO, everything that improves a player ability to perform in the pitch should be connected to CA. It is a different question to access if somethings (like for instance long throws) should be as weighted as they are in the current CA model though. If anything, I think there are still somethings that I do not understand how they are not taken into account on CA (like say determination, that seems to have a unequivocal positive effect on a player's performance). Those who liked "free attributeS" because it increased "depth" should remember that the AI seems to choose their teams mainly based on CA, so disconnecting actual ability in the ME (ie, attributes) from perceived ability by the AI managers (ie, CA) just makes the game easier for the human.

Absence of indirect free kicks.

Pretty sure they are in. There is even a stat in the game: 'goals from indirect free kicks', I think.

C.

How is that a problem? Anything that involves an ability has to be connected to CA - surely?

Everything is not connected and it is a good thing.

Getting rid of the free attributes was a great improvement IMO, everything that improves a player ability to perform in the pitch should be connected to CA.

The most important attribute is not still connected. So SIGames should get rid of all free attributes or keep old model, because this new model does not work with regens.

Also, if this goes too far, happens like this.

Better CA -> better skills-> Better team wins on every area -> Better team wins match -> No need to play the match, because better team wins. Great.

It is a different question to access if somethings (like for instance long throws) should be as weighted as they are in the current CA model though. If anything, I think there are still somethings that I do not understand how they are not taken into account on CA (like say determination, that seems to have a unequivocal positive effect on a player's performance).

Some players have bad attirude problems and usually they cannot get rid of it. So that is OK.

I also do not like this "world class players have good skills on everywhere just because they are world class players". On many skills, many amateurs win World class players with that skill 20 easilly. 20 should be really like Ultimate, now good players must be good on almost everywhere, or they are not good. Even if IRL they are not.

Those who liked "free attributeS" because it increased "depth" should remember that the AI seems to choose their teams mainly based on CA, so disconnecting actual ability in the ME (ie, attributes) from perceived ability by the AI managers (ie, CA) just makes the game easier for the human.

Makes easier to human IF human takes advantage from these free attributes. This is supposed to be game, right? The be should be something you can do to create success. Free attributes is great thing for that. Those who do not want to use them, well, that's their choice. But for those who want some real challenge, Free attributes is one good thing to make difference.

Also, I really do not understand those comments "free attributes should be removed" and "CA should be directly connected to skills".

I think FM is supposed to be a game. If we take realistic approach, it is impossible to win Premier league if your team is not ManU, Arsenal or Chelsea. Last time Premier league was won other team than one of those, was season 1994-1995.

So like if your team is Liverpool for example, you cannot win Premier league, it is just not realistic.

Sounds fun? No.

As FM is a game, there should be something that gives possibility to gain "unrealistic" success. Free attributes is one of those. No one os forced to use them, but if somebody wants, why not? Or is FM supposed to make more like "just put better players on pitch and look how they win the match"?

Unbelievable that someone says it is good thing to remove free attributes. Maybe those should just play pure arcade games like FIFA 10 or games where there is just one skill that matters like Football manager 2

Also, I really do not understand those comments "free attributes should be removed" and "CA should be directly connected to skills".

I think FM is supposed to be a game. If we take realistic approach, it is impossible to win Premier league if your team is not ManU, Arsenal or Chelsea. Last time Premier league was won other team than one of those, was season 1994-1995.

So like if your team is Liverpool for example, you cannot win Premier league, it is just not realistic.

Sounds fun? No.

As FM is a game, there should be something that gives possibility to gain "unrealistic" success. Free attributes is one of those. No one os forced to use them, but if somebody wants, why not? Or is FM supposed to make more like "just put better players on pitch and look how they win the match"?

Unbelievable that someone says it is good thing to remove free attributes. Maybe those should just play pure arcade games like FIFA 10 or games where there is just one skill that matters like Football manager 2

You are completely contradicting yourself with your argument.

In previous posts you accuse the new game of being too 'arcade', as to mean that it looks good but is not very realistic.

And now you are saying that it is 'just a game' and it shouldn't be like reality.

If you actually play FM10, you will know that you can't just win everything with a bunch of good players.

If anything was arcade, it's a bunch of messy arrows going here and there commanding players to exactly move in those directions like a toy soldier on a rail.

in 08 there were so many super tactics with more than 4 goals per game on average.

you can't do anything like that now, because it actually represents the real football more accurately than before.

You are completely contradicting yourself with your argument.

In previous posts you accuse the new game of being too 'arcade', as to mean that it looks good but is not very realistic.

And now you are saying that it is 'just a game' and it shouldn't be like reality.

Actually no. There is huge difference between reality, arcade simulation and simulation that is meant to those who want challenge. I prefer FM series as simulation that is meant for those who want challenge. You can gain even unrealistic success, but if you just don't do your job properly, it is more like you wont gain it. This is what FM series has offered. Of course you need some luck, but if you play well, it is very like that you will gain more success compared to that you play badly.

For those who just want arcade simulation, may play those games where you can easilly see who is good player and who is not.

If you actually play FM10, you will know that you can't just win everything with a bunch of good players.

Many people ask for good players, usually those players who have high CA/PA on database are recommended. That's what I don't need to do.

If anything was arcade, it's a bunch of messy arrows going here and there commanding players to exactly move in those directions like a toy soldier on a rail.

This is not exactly true and has been proved false argument many times. Partially it is true, but this is supposed to be game.

in 08 there were so many super tactics with more than 4 goals per game on average.

Please tell me some. Forget Corner kick bug, on my database it is almost non existent (did not actually tried to get rid of it, but it just came).

you can't do anything like that now, because it actually represents the real football more accurately than before.

Same was said on FM 2009 and goalkeepers frequently shot ball agains DC's and so on. Anyway, regarding this Free attributes, there should be more variance between players.

JAT - what is this important attribute that isnt connected to CA?

I consider it most important single attribute. And it is of course Consistency.

Right.

Well consistency acts as a variant on CA match to match, which knocks on to other attributes. It would be nonsensical to connect it to CA.

Agreed. And that is why I also think that Free kicks, Penalty Taking and so on should not be connected to CA. Some people just cannot take spot kicks properly, even if they are world class players. Then some 17 year old kids iron willed when it comes to penalties. Same about free kicks and corners also. Some people have it, some do not. Just same as Determination, which is luckily reserved as free attribute on FM 2010 also. Some people just don't give up as easilly as others.

In fact, old Free attribute model was excellent, for example I can't see many world class centre backs who actually are good finishers. Well, Vermaelen has very good shot, but then...

Some world class players cannot finish, some world class players cannot tackle, some world class players cannot run, and that is all possible under the current CA system, because it just guarantees that overall an world class players has some world class skills! It is quite obvious that set piece ability should be one of the things considered when deciding if someone is world class or not.

Huum, ok interesting, that was what I kind of assumed the whole time, that determination modified the whole set of attributes under some circumstances, and that that was the criteria for having something not belong to CA. Because if we are not talking about modifying all attributes, what fundamentally distinguishes determination from say bravery (which is included in CA)?

Sigtorsson?

I think I can possibly agree re determination, although again its a modifier on other attributes due to circumstance.

But free kicks, corners etc are clear cut. They should be connected to CA.

Free attributes as in the old CM days ( pre CM4 ) are never ever going to return. We should enjoy looking back on the days of those classic games, and some of the players in them ( what was the Norwegian lad's name? ), but it isnt the future of FM.

I mean Free attributes like FM 2009 way.

Some world class players cannot finish, some world class players cannot tackle, some world class players cannot run, and that is all possible under the current CA system, because it just guarantees that overall an world class players has some world class skills! It is quite obvious that set piece ability should be one of the things considered when deciding if someone is world class or not.

Actually no. We can say that MOST WC strikers can finish well, MOST WC defenders cannot. MOST WC strikers cannot defend, MOST WC backs can and so on.

And under current Free attributes system it just happens to be that many centre backs are excellent finishers and so on. on old Free attributes system there were rare amount of centre backs who can shoot well, just like IRL.

Tihs new system makes players more like unrealistic.

And why set piece ability should be CA dependent. We take Golden ball top 20

1. Lionel Messi (Argentina, Barcelona) / 473

2. Cristiano Ronaldo (Portugal, Man United & Real Madrid) / 233

3. Xavi (Spain, Barcelona) / 170

4. Andres Iniesta (Spain, Barcelona) / 149

5. Samuel Eto'o (Cameroon, Barcelona & Inter Milan) / 75

6. Kaka (Brazil, AC Milan & Real Madrid) / 58

7. Zlatan Ibrahimovic (Sweden, Inter Milan & Barcelona) / 50

8. Wayne Rooney (England, Manchester United) / 35

9. Didier Drogba (Ivory Coast, Chelsea) / 33

10. Steven Gerrard (England, Liverpool) / 32

11. Fernando Torres (Spain, Liverpool) / 22

12. Cesc Fabregas (Spain, Arsenal) / 13

13. Edin Dzeko (Bosnia, VfL Wolfsburg) / 12

14. Ryan Giggs (Wales, Manchester United) / 11

15. Thierry Henry (France, Barcelona) / 9

16 Luis Fabiano (Brazil, Sevilla) / 8

Nemanja Vidic (Serbia, Manchester United) / 8

Iker Casillas (Spain, Real Madrid) / 8

19. Diego Forlan (Uruguay, Atletico Madrid) / 7

20. Yoann Gourcuff (France, Girondins Bordeaux) / 6

There just is not very many good set piece takers. Ronaldo, Kaka, Drogba, Gerrard, Fabregas...

Considering almost all players are attackers or attacking midfielders, I cannot see reason why set piece ability is connected to players' skills. There are many players that are set piece experts, altough overally they are not even near world class.

Huum, ok interesting, that was what I kind of assumed the whole time, that determination modified the whole set of attributes under some circumstances, and that that was the criteria for having something not belong to CA. Because if we are not talking about modifying all attributes, what fundamentally distinguishes determination from say bravery (which is included in CA)?

Sigtorsson?

In fact, Bravery is not connected to CA on attacking players. Take for example Composure instead.

In fact, Bravery is not connected to CA on attacking players. Take for example Composure instead.

In fact it is, just with a lower weight, you can check yourself if you want.

In fact it is, you can check yourself if you want.

Talking about FM 2009, not FM 2010.

And also set pieces weren't free in FM09 already. It is in FM08 they were.

Bravery was already not free in FM09, maybe in FM08. The weights in FM09: http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=3275601&postcount=670

Bravery was already not free in FM09, maybe in FM08.

OK, if so, there was some change between those versions. Next time I talk about FM 08, if this really is the case.

That "free kicks should be connected to CA" opinion did not get any support on IRC btw.

Just because many world class players are poor set piece takers. And also if we consider that many "low profile" players have poor technical skills, it also means that they most probably have poor set piece ability.

However, as already stated, there are many set piece experts on lower level IRL. So this makes no sense.

Edit: Thanks for finally clarifying this. So there is slight difference between FM 08 and FM 09. Some said there is not, but it seems there is.

You are confusing correlation between set pieces and CA, which might not be very high in the game or in real life, with an attribute not being part of a player's skill set... When people think of C. Ronaldo's ability, they will surely think of his free kick ability as one component, or even, using a defender as an example, the old Mihajlovic, one of the things that made him useful on the field was the fact that he was so good at taking free kicks. Set pieces are part of what people think as the "overall ability" of a player in real life and therefore should belong to a player's CA... It is more clear cut to me than attributes like bravery, composure or concentration, which also belong to CA currently.

You are confusing correlation between set pieces and CA, which might not be very high in the game or in real life, with an attribute not being part of a player's skill set... When people think of C. Ronaldo's ability, they will surely think of his free kick ability as one component, or even, using a defender as an example, the old Mihajlovic, one of the things that made him useful on the field was the fact that he was so good at taking free kicks. Set pieces are part of what people think as the "overall ability" of a player in real life and therefore should belong to a player's CA... It is more clear cut to me than attributes like bravery, composure or concentration, which also belong to CA currently.

How do you define "people"?

All who watch football more than just top goals, know that there is no real correlation between players' overall skill and set piece ability. And some players actually play just because they are set piece experts, if you take C. Ronaldo's set piece ability away, he is still good player. But if you do this to set piece experts, their usefullness are gone.

That is why we should have these set piece experts who play mustly because they are good at it. Take Mihajlovic's set piece ability away and what's left? Not much.

Well, the last comment I will make is that I am not defending that set pieces should have a high weight on CA, I would probably use smaller weights than what SI has (definitely smaller for long throws), but it is a football skill, and therefore should be weighted on CA, so that CA gives a representation as accurate as possible of a player's ability.

Well, the last comment I will make is that I am not defending that set pieces should have a high weight on CA, I would probably use smaller weights than what SI has (definitely smaller for long throws), but it is a football skill, and therefore should be weighted on CA, so that CA gives an accurate representation of a player's ability.

Why CA should give accurate representation of a player's ability? I prefer that CA gives "somewhat accurate estimation" of players' ability. So that Player A can be better than player B even if player B has higher CA.

Again, we can take backwards to Football Manager 2, where only one skill determined players' abilility. That way we only need program that calculates players' CA from skills and we are back in 80's.

CA should give an accurate representation of a player's ability, as accurate as possible I would say... But we should not be able to see it clearly in the game (as we do not currently), nor the AI should have a perfect picture of it either (as it doesn't either right now, at least according to SI).

I should also say, that no matter how accurate SI tries to make CA be of a player's skill level, that information alone would never allow you to win all matches easily, because CA would still only be an "average quality", the different attributes are what really define what goes on in the ME, plus tactics, morale, fitness and a big random element.

A very biasedly calculated CA gives an advantage to the human player over the AI, because we can choose to ignore the star rating that the assistant manager tells us for a player and just look at the attributes, but the AI cannot afford that luxury.

CA should give an accurate representation of a player's ability, as accurate as possible I would say... But we should not be able to see it clearly in the game (as we do not currently), nor the AI should have a perfect picture of it either (as it doesn't either right now, at least according to SI).

But if it really does, it can be calculated quite easilly and then we are back into CM2 days where CA was all and everything or back to Football Manager 2 where one skill was everything. We just calculate players' CA and then we can say that this player is better buy than this one. Then it is one and same to use editor and check actual CA, because it can also be calculated.

This would make game more arcade one thing I'm talking about.

It is very nice to buy players when ytou clearly see that "OK, this player has higher CA and higher price, but this player has much better free attributes and lower CA and lower price because of that".

I should also say, that no matter how accurate SI tries to make CA be of a player's skill level, that information alone would never allow you to win all matches easily, because CA would still only be an average quality, the different attributes are what really define what goes on in the ME, plus tactics, morale, fitness and a big random element.

Yeah, but on long run, this higher CA = better player would take one element away.

I also makes very difficult to determine players' playing positions from skills. It would be really stupid if our team's best finisher is centre back altough he is Ineffectual as striker.

A very biasedly calculated CA gives an advantage to the human player over the AI, because we can choose to ignore the star rating that the assistant manager tells us and just look at the attributes, but the AI cannot afford that luxury.

And that is problem why? This is a GAME, there must be something that makes difference between human player and AI. And Free attributes is much better than "AI gets some boost from nothing just to make things harder" seen on many other games.

You are forgetting. The user isnt supposed to know CA or PA.

But if player's skills are directly connected to CA, so that CA directly determines how good player is, it determines player's skills and therefore CA can be calculated from skills. And then user would know CA.

That is why CA should NOT give an accurate representation of a player's ability. Rather just an estimation.

And more free attributes, less accurate that estimation is.

More nice looking graphics, more bugs, less playable on long term...

what ? this doesn't even make sense? how come better graphics and more bugs means its more arcade?

and less long term?

1-dude 08 had tons of bugs that were most of then fixed in patch's ,

2-better looking is not a bad thing , i see that you like hardcore black and white graphics with only text

3- i have had long term games in 09 without problems

you have no freaking idea of what an arcade game is JAT